Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[McLaren]

First topic message reminder :

Navy

And what super has also missed is that the statues and TV shows are not really the main focus of the protests. They are easy news bites to bring up but the meat of the protesters argument is about equality for black people.

I also don't think super is correct that just because you support BLM you don't also worry about atrocities committed in other spheres of life. It is just that currently the focus is on racism towards black people.

As much as he hates America, Super would really fit into their libertarian ways.

[incontinentia]

I think it is more a socio-economic than a race issue. Poor people tend to fall foul of the law more often, Blacks in America are disproportionately poor therefore they often seen as victims of police brutality.

Inco

In this model what are the reasons for blacks being disproportionately poor?

Dont know Mac, i suppose the same reasons any demographic stays poor? Not aware of any evidence of inequality of opportunity.

Not sure that makes sense Inco. If black people are disproportionately poor there must be an effect which is only felt by them (or at least felt by them to a greater magnitude). So what do you think the factor is that causes more black people than would be expected based on proportion of the population to become poor?

I'm sure there's a number of factors Mac. Seems like you have something in mind that you're trying to draw out of me. The Bell Curve? (For the record I don't buy into the findings of that book).

[JuliusHMarx]

So perhaps the 'major factor' was the police not doing their jobs correctly to ensure suspect co-operation (if they had acted lawfully, would he have resisted?) and then murdering him.

Oh come off it. The officer should have explained he was under arrest, but it was hardly a shock when he tried to cuff Brooks after failing a breathalyser. I cant believe you don't seem to have a problem with Brooks behaviour here

In terms of bad behaviour who was worse, Brooks or Rolfe? Who should I have more of a problem with? A drunk guy who resists arrest or the policeman who murders him in addition to 10 other criminal charges? You seem to have no real issue with the policeman's behaviour and are more concerned with Brooks' behaviour. I'll draw my own conclusions as to why that is.

[incontinentia]

I'm pretty much done with this conversation. I'll leave the last word to Sheriff Alonzo Williams, who in my view hits the nail on the head on the whole issue.

[JuliusHMarx]

Of course, you're entitled to your views. But then so are the Klan.

[McLaren]

I think it is more a socio-economic than a race issue. Poor people tend to fall foul of the law more often, Blacks in America are disproportionately poor therefore they often seen as victims of police brutality.

Inco

In this model what are the reasons for blacks being disproportionately poor?

Dont know Mac, i suppose the same reasons any demographic stays poor? Not aware of any evidence of inequality of opportunity.

Not sure that makes sense Inco. If black people are disproportionately poor there must be an effect which is only felt by them (or at least felt by them to a greater magnitude). So what do you think the factor is that causes more black people than would be expected based on proportion of the population to become poor?

I'm sure there's a number of factors Mac. Seems like you have something in mind that you're trying to draw out of me. The Bell Curve? (For the record I don't buy into the findings of that book).

I don't have anything in mind but you have ruled out race (racism) as a reason for black people being disproportionately socio economically deprived so I just wonder what the factors are that you think uniquely effect black Americans?

[incontinentia]

Of course, you're entitled to your views. But then so are the Klan.

Yep, you got it in one. Just heading off to the rally now. There's a cake raffle tonight, should be fun

[JuliusHMarx]

Of course, you're entitled to your views. But then so are the Klan.

Yep, you got it in one. Just heading off to the rally now. There's a cake raffle tonight, should be fun

Try not to murder any unarmed citizens while your there.

[JuliusHMarx]

An interesting read - even if you think the guy who wrote it is mistaken.
https://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer

[super_realist]

If, by 'entire police forces' you mean every person on the force, then clearly that isn't the case. When the Met was found to be institutionally racist 20 years ago, I don't think it was every single cop. What would be an acceptable level of racist police - 50%, 30%, 10%?

Rayshard Brooks - the policeman involved has been charged with felony murder - which doesn't seem unreasonable.

No I dont mean every single police officer  I've seen an estimate from police chiefs in the U.S. that around 3-4% of cops are racist. Realistically that number will never get to zero, if it really is 3-4% then that doesn't seem too bad. Certainly nowhere near as bad as its being made out to be.

Did you think Mr. Brooks bore much responsibility for his fate?

I would say that although there is bound to be racist elements within every police force the biggest thing that stands out to me is that American policing methods must be absolutely terrible.  You don't see anything like this sort of thing happening in France, Germany, Norway, Belgium, Ireland, Australia,  New Zealand, Denmark, Sweden, Spain.

In the last 3 years American police have shot dead (for whatever reason):
1398 white people (20% lower than the % of white people in population)
755 Black people (this figure is 8.5% higher than the % of Americans who are black.)
542 Hispanics (3% less than the general population who are Hispanic)
134 Other
588 unknowns.

It does appear black people are killed disproportionately, but it's probably far too simplistic to claim this is definitely (or all) due to racism as we don't know the ethnicity of those who have done the shooting or the circumstances of the event.

In the same period in the UK there has been just 11 people shot dead by UK police a figure which is equal to 0.32% of the deaths American police have on their docket. The American police death figure is actually 5x that of murder by civilians in the UK. America is frankly a mess and any fear of being killed by British police is pretty laughable.

That tells me it's bad policing first and foremost, from there you need to dig down deeper and see what impact is down to racism.

[incontinentia]

Agree with that super. But also there are a lot more guns in America than other countries. The cops there are always on edge and afraid of getting hurt or killed themselves and I think this encourages them more to respond with deadly force than make efforts to incapacitate a suspect.

I watched this doc a couple years ago. It explains to an extent why the US cops use the methods they do and compares them with UK methods.

[super_realist]

Agree with that super. But also there are a lot more guns in America than other countries. The cops there are always on edge and afraid of getting hurt or killed themselves and I think this encourages them more to respond with deadly force than make efforts to incapacitate a suspect.

I watched this doc a couple years ago. It explains to an extent why the US cops use the methods they do and compares them with UK methods.

I wasn't trying really to make a comparison between the UK and USA, it was more of a side thought. I just thought it was interesting how few people are actually killed by police in the UK by gun (and if you look at the people who have been you can see clearly why they were) but it does rather blow out of the water some of the pathetic claims made by UK protestors that they were worried about dying at the hands of the police.

I think the point is that American police appear trigger happy and clearly their methods, combined with the levels of crime result in massively high deaths for criminals and police and would lead one to deduce it  can't possibly be down to 100% racism in order for a black person to be shot by police, unless you subscribe to the sort of wokedom like Mac and Ben who most likely believe that being a black criminal only  happens because of a racist society which I wouldn't put it past them to believe.

The very difficult thing to do is decide which deaths have occurred due to racism, and that would seem impossible to do, but one thing that isn't helpful is whenever someone dies from the police is the claim that it must be.

[beninho]

Who thinks its 100% racism in American police? Where has that argument cone from?

Unless, you are simple, you can see that Anerica has a racism problem, and has done for a very long time. Unfortunately this will seep through to racists in the police force, both open racism and general prejudice.

I will also, say, the actual policing doesn't look good. It makes you wonder how much training they get. Here, its a long old road from start to finish for a new copper.

[incontinentia]

The very difficult thing to do is decide which deaths have occurred due to racism, and that would seem impossible to do, but one thing that isn't helpful is whenever someone dies from the police is the claim that it must be.

Exactly.

[super_realist]

Who thinks its 100% racism in American police? Where has that argument cone from?

Unless, you are simple, you can see that Anerica has a racism problem, and has done for a very long time. Unfortunately this will seep through to racists in the police force, both open racism and general prejudice.

I will also, say, the actual policing doesn't look good. It makes you wonder how much training they get. Here, its a long old road from start to finish for a new copper.

 I didn't say the police were 100% racist or even imply it, I said there appears to be a view (of certain groups and individuals) that any death involving a black person by a US Police Officer must have  a racist element to it these days.
I also stated very clearly that America had a racist problem but that it is impossible to tell how many deaths in America by the police relate to racism.

[navyblueshorts]

If only I'd known that the pandemic wasn't all that important from the start.

Who says its not important? Have you invented an argument again?

Just that some people, find racism more important to them. Everything is personal opinions. Unfortunately the more you see of things, such as banners on planes over football grounds, and racists itching for a fight, on top of what people say on social media, Its opened my eyes that this country is more racist then I was aware of.

Yet again missing the inference of the point, I could have ignored social distancing the whole time if I considered something else more important?

If you had felt strongly enough about something, a lot of people have. Social distancing is just guidelines remember.

I can do whatever ever I want as long as I feel strongly enough about doing it, good to know.

Yes, but there'll be consequences.

Not if I care strongly enough, it's a magic cure for anything.

Jesus wept. Believing that there won't be any, or not caring about, consequences isn't the same as there not being any.

[navyblueshorts]

Nothing he did warranted being shot in the back and killed. Arrested, yep. Charged, probably. Shot dead, nope.

I'm not saying that his shooting was deserved or warranted... but I'm pretty sure he'd be alive today had he co-operated with the police. Suspect behaviour is a major factor in these shootings.

Blaming the victim is pathetic. He was murdered - hence the charge of murder - and you're blaming him for getting murdered, rather than being outraged at a policeman shooting a person in the back, who at that point was unarmed. No wonder people are marching for justice.

I'm not really blaming the victim, I'm trying to tease out factors that caused a civilised conversation to turn into a fatal police shooting. I agree with you that the arresting officer should have explained that he was going to arrest Brooks before he tried to put the cuffs on, I thought that was unusual when I saw the video. Also, in a perfect world the cop wouldve shot Brooks in the legs or butt.. but he had to make a split second decision against a perp who had a weapon himself and who was being very hostile.

The whole thing has been politicised, hence the murder charge. The police know Rolfe acted according to his training, which is why they are pi$$ed and protesting via a blue flu.

Not going to happen; only happens in films. You pull a gun, you aim to kill and I'm sure that's what armed police are trained to do. Problem in America appears to be the fact that firearms are the norm. Seriously, in this case, why not just let the guy run away and pick him up later? Not like they didn't know who he was.

[navyblueshorts]

So perhaps the 'major factor' was the police not doing their jobs correctly to ensure suspect co-operation (if they had acted lawfully, would he have resisted?) and then murdering him.

Oh come off it. The officer should have explained he was under arrest, but it was hardly a shock when he tried to cuff Brooks after failing a breathalyser. I cant believe you don't seem to have a problem with Brooks behaviour here

"He ran away, so I shot him dead.". What a stupid defence.

[JuliusHMarx]

Who thinks its 100% racism in American police? Where has that argument cone from?

Unless, you are simple, you can see that Anerica has a racism problem, and has done for a very long time. Unfortunately this will seep through to racists in the police force, both open racism and general prejudice.

I will also, say, the actual policing doesn't look good. It makes you wonder how much training they get. Here, its a long old road from start to finish for a new copper.

 I didn't say the police were 100% racist or even imply it, I said there appears to be a view (of certain groups and individuals) that any death involving a black person by a US Police Officer must have  a racist element to it these days.

Haven't seen that from anyone on this forum. Is this where I put in lots of eye rolls?

Obviously each individual case is just that - individual - but that's why people look for patterns. Rolfe may not be racist at all - he may just be a trigger-happy, law-breaking policeman who committed a non-racist murder*, but a white cop murdering a black civilian, when it has happened so many times before, isn't going to help race relations, and defending the cop and trying to place the blame on the civilian, as some seem to want to do, isn't go to help race relations either.

I don't think saying 30000 racist cops in the US is 'not too bad' is particularly helpful either.

*Allegedly, at this point.

[beninho]

There's a chris rock joke, from a stand up show about it bring sone bad apples. Its pretty funny_ though probably not for everyone.

[incontinentia]

Seriously, in this case, why not just let the guy run away and pick him up later? Not like they didn't know who he was.

Thats ludicrous navy.

[JuliusHMarx]

Seriously, in this case, why not just let the guy run away and pick him up later? Not like they didn't know who he was.

Thats ludicrous navy.

Was murdering him a better option?

[incontinentia]

Seriously, in this case, why not just let the guy run away and pick him up later? Not like they didn't know who he was.

Thats ludicrous navy.

Was murdering him a better option?

I'm sure peaceful dialogue would've worked a treat

[JuliusHMarx]

Seriously, in this case, why not just let the guy run away and pick him up later? Not like they didn't know who he was.

Thats ludicrous navy.

Was murdering him a better option?

I'm sure peaceful dialogue would've worked a treat

Murder is always good for a laugh

[pedro]

Black cops also kill disproportionally more black people than they kill whites. That doesn’t rule out racism though. It’s just not that simple.

And why more black people are poor? It could be the chicken or the egg? But I’m sure social inheritance plays a role. The fact that jews are better off than other ethnic or religious groups can hardly be due to racism? So again, it’s not that simple.

[pedro]

Seriously, in this case, why not just let the guy run away and pick him up later? Not like they didn't know who he was.

Thats ludicrous navy.

Was murdering him a better option?

I'm sure peaceful dialogue would've worked a treat

Murder is always good for a laugh  

Fake 20 dollar bills and stealing a taser.. Dirty Harry wouldn’t have hesitated either.

[super_realist]

Who thinks its 100% racism in American police? Where has that argument cone from?

Unless, you are simple, you can see that Anerica has a racism problem, and has done for a very long time. Unfortunately this will seep through to racists in the police force, both open racism and general prejudice.

I will also, say, the actual policing doesn't look good. It makes you wonder how much training they get. Here, its a long old road from start to finish for a new copper.

 I didn't say the police were 100% racist or even imply it, I said there appears to be a view (of certain groups and individuals) that any death involving a black person by a US Police Officer must have  a racist element to it these days.

Haven't seen that from anyone on this forum. Is this where I put in lots of eye rolls?

Obviously each individual case is just that - individual - but that's why people look for patterns. Rolfe may not be racist at all - he may just be a trigger-happy, law-breaking policeman who committed a non-racist murder*, but a white cop murdering a black civilian, when it has happened so many times before, isn't going to help race relations, and defending the cop and trying to place the blame on the civilian, as some seem to want to do, isn't go to help race relations either.

I don't think saying 30000 racist cops in the US is 'not too bad' is particularly helpful either.

*Allegedly, at this point.

Are you the new Mac and Beninho when it comes to missing the point.
I didn't at any point say a low % of racism was "not too bad" or that it was acceptable in any way.
Do people look for patterns or does it appear that they are instantly seeing racism in every case that involves a black person?
Using the word "murder" when you don't know very much about any of the cases is rather proving my point that people aren't really "looking for patterns" and are actually jumping to their own conclusions.

[JuliusHMarx]

Who thinks its 100% racism in American police? Where has that argument cone from?

Unless, you are simple, you can see that Anerica has a racism problem, and has done for a very long time. Unfortunately this will seep through to racists in the police force, both open racism and general prejudice.

I will also, say, the actual policing doesn't look good. It makes you wonder how much training they get. Here, its a long old road from start to finish for a new copper.

 I didn't say the police were 100% racist or even imply it, I said there appears to be a view (of certain groups and individuals) that any death involving a black person by a US Police Officer must have  a racist element to it these days.

Haven't seen that from anyone on this forum. Is this where I put in lots of eye rolls?

Obviously each individual case is just that - individual - but that's why people look for patterns. Rolfe may not be racist at all - he may just be a trigger-happy, law-breaking policeman who committed a non-racist murder*, but a white cop murdering a black civilian, when it has happened so many times before, isn't going to help race relations, and defending the cop and trying to place the blame on the civilian, as some seem to want to do, isn't go to help race relations either.

I don't think saying 30000 racist cops in the US is 'not too bad' is particularly helpful either.

*Allegedly, at this point.

Are you the new Mac and Beninho when it comes to missing the point.
I didn't at any point say a low % of racism was "not too bad" or that it was acceptable in any way.
Do people look for patterns or does it appear that they are instantly seeing racism in every case that involves a black person?
Using the word "murder" when you don't know very much about any of the cases is rather proving my point that people aren't really "looking for patterns" and are actually jumping to their own conclusions.

I know you didn't. I was pointing it out as part of a broader discussion involving several posters, one of whom did say that.
Perhaps, to make things easier for you, when I reply to your posts in the future, I will only reference your own points.
I use the word 'murder' because he has been charged with murder (and 10 other crimes), and pointed out that it is 'alleged' i.e. not yet a conviction.

[incontinentia]

Julius I suppose you have no issue with the other officer being charged with 3 offences (including aggravated assault)?

[JAS]

Eh up!! Have you had Boris round for a cuppa and some ear bending at the weekend Supes?? He’s on your favourite hobby horse this morning...”As a Nation we are fatter than our European neighbours and we need to address it”

I sense a growing indignation and an FLM movement starting :-p

[incontinentia]

Eh up!! Have you had Boris round for a cuppa and some ear bending at the weekend Supes?? He’s on your favourite hobby horse this morning...”As a Nation we are fatter than our European neighbours and we need to address it”

I sense a growing indignation and an FLM movement starting :-p

He could start by addressing his own hefty hide

[navyblueshorts]

Seriously, in this case, why not just let the guy run away and pick him up later? Not like they didn't know who he was.

Thats ludicrous navy.

You think? Why, pray? Shooting him in the back is better? Now, that's ludicrous. OK, maybe chase him, or call for backup. Whatever else is better than shooting a man in the back who's running away. If they just want to shoot people, why not can the pretending and give them camouflage fatigues and military gear?

[JuliusHMarx]

Julius I suppose you have no issue with the other officer being charged with 3 offences (including aggravated assault)?

If he broke the law, which the DA says he did, then I have no issue with him being charged.

[Soul Requiem]

In no civilised population should the police ever be shooting someone in the back, where exactly is the threat when someone is running away from you?

[navyblueshorts]

Seriously, in this case, why not just let the guy run away and pick him up later? Not like they didn't know who he was.

Thats ludicrous navy.

Was murdering him a better option?

I'm sure peaceful dialogue would've worked a treat

Murder is always good for a laugh  

Fake 20 dollar bills and stealing a taser.. Dirty Harry wouldn’t have hesitated either.

You're conflating issues from different cases, I believe. Re. fake bills, who said Floyd knew it was fake? Judge, jury and executioner. Nice nation.

All this can't help remind me of Not the 9-o'clock news:

[navyblueshorts]

Eh up!! Have you had Boris round for a cuppa and some ear bending at the weekend Supes?? He’s on your favourite hobby horse this morning...”As a Nation we are fatter than our European neighbours and we need to address it”

I sense a growing indignation and an FLM movement starting :-p

That's rich coming from the svelte figure that is our current PM.

[Soul Requiem]

Eh up!! Have you had Boris round for a cuppa and some ear bending at the weekend Supes?? He’s on your favourite hobby horse this morning...”As a Nation we are fatter than our European neighbours and we need to address it”

I sense a growing indignation and an FLM movement starting :-p

That's rich coming from the svelte figure that is our current PM.

He did go on to say he attributed his own hospitalisation to his weight.

[navyblueshorts]

Eh up!! Have you had Boris round for a cuppa and some ear bending at the weekend Supes?? He’s on your favourite hobby horse this morning...”As a Nation we are fatter than our European neighbours and we need to address it”

I sense a growing indignation and an FLM movement starting :-p

That's rich coming from the svelte figure that is our current PM.

He did go on to say he attributed his own hospitalisation to his weight.

Fair play.

[incontinentia]

Julius I suppose you have no issue with the other officer being charged with 3 offences (including aggravated assault)?

If he broke the law, which the DA says he did, then I have no issue with him being charged.

You can't form your own viewpoint after viewing the footage? Just wondering if you thought it was reasonable for a cop who was punched (giving him a concussion) and had his taser taken from him to be charged with assault.

I don't know the definition of aggravated assault, so I looked it up on google... "...an attempt to cause serious bodily harm to an individual with disregard for human life". I'm at a complete loss to see how Officer Brosnan did anything like that.

[incontinentia]

In no civilised population should the police ever be shooting someone in the back, where exactly is the threat when someone is running away from you?

The guy had a taser and had just fired it at the policeman.

[McLaren]

Why are people so afraid of labeling an act as racism? No matter what has happened there are always people, in this case Inco and Super, who will bend over backwards to come up with arguments why the incident is not actually racist.

[incontinentia]

Seriously, in this case, why not just let the guy run away and pick him up later? Not like they didn't know who he was.

Thats ludicrous navy.

You think? Why, pray? Shooting him in the back is better? Now, that's ludicrous. OK, maybe chase him, or call for backup. Whatever else is better than shooting a man in the back who's running away. If they just want to shoot people, why not can the pretending and give them camouflage fatigues and military gear?

The suggestion that police should simply let offenders run away is ludicrous. What message does that send to would-be felons and the wider community? Police are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[JuliusHMarx]

In no civilised population should the police ever be shooting someone in the back, where exactly is the threat when someone is running away from you?

The guy had a taser and had just fired it at the policeman.

The guy had fired the taser twice - which obviously is a criminal act - but after it was fired twice it could no longer be used. The DA specifically said Rolfe should have been aware of that fact. At the point of the alleged murder Brooks was unarmed and running away.

[JuliusHMarx]

Seriously, in this case, why not just let the guy run away and pick him up later? Not like they didn't know who he was.

Thats ludicrous navy.

You think? Why, pray? Shooting him in the back is better? Now, that's ludicrous. OK, maybe chase him, or call for backup. Whatever else is better than shooting a man in the back who's running away. If they just want to shoot people, why not can the pretending and give them camouflage fatigues and military gear?

The suggestion that police should simply let offenders run away is ludicrous. What message does that send to would-be felons and the wider community? Police are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

In general, police are damned if they break the law and not damned if they don't.

[incontinentia]

Why are people so afraid of labeling an act as racism? No matter what has happened there are always people, in this case Inco and Super, who will bend over backwards to come up with arguments why the incident is not actually racist.

What proof do you have that the shooting was racially motivated? I want to know the truth and will gladly change my opinion if there is evidence to support racism

[Soul Requiem]

In no civilised population should the police ever be shooting someone in the back, where exactly is the threat when someone is running away from you?

The guy had a taser and had just fired it at the policeman.

It's a taser not a gun.

[incontinentia]

In no civilised population should the police ever be shooting someone in the back, where exactly is the threat when someone is running away from you?

The guy had a taser and had just fired it at the policeman.

The guy had fired the taser twice - which obviously is a criminal act - but after it was fired twice it could no longer be used. The DA specifically said Rolfe should have been aware of that fact. At the point of the alleged murder Brooks was unarmed and running away.

I see where you're coming from. Hopefully police training in America is improved so these type of incidents don't result in fatalities.

[pedro]

In defence of the police officer, on the video it did look like he was limping after the guy and had been hurt by the taser and therefore not in a clear state of mind. But again, no reason for killing him.

[McLaren]

Why are people so afraid of labeling an act as racism? No matter what has happened there are always people, in this case Inco and Super, who will bend over backwards to come up with arguments why the incident is not actually racist.

What proof do you have that the shooting was racially motivated? I want to know the truth and will gladly change my opinion if there is evidence to support racism

Inco, the cop who pulls the trigger doesn't have to do it because they are racist for the killing to be racist. The argument is about systemic racism. The moment the trigger is pulled is the end of a series of situations where black people have been viewed or treated differently. It is about how police officers are conditioned to view and treat black people differently to white people, to the point where even a black officer in the system will be indoctrinated with these ideas, never mind a racist white officer (which supers stat about black cops also killing a higher proportion of black people demonstrates). If you are genuinely interested in the evidence then this is where you have to start, try searching studies on the presence of systemic racism in the police and its causes. You are unlikely to find something as simple as a photo of one of the back killing cops chairing a klan meeting.

[incontinentia]

In no civilised population should the police ever be shooting someone in the back, where exactly is the threat when someone is running away from you?

The guy had a taser and had just fired it at the policeman.

It's a taser not a gun.

Yes, a taser capable of incapaciting the police officer (despite an earlier comment, the taser could still be used in close quarters even though the 2 distance charges had been fired). The perp could've tazed the policeman and taken his gun from him. A taser is a deadly weapon under Georgia law.

[JAS]

Why are people so afraid of labeling an act as racism? No matter what has happened there are always people, in this case Inco and Super, who will bend over backwards to come up with arguments why the incident is not actually racist.

Don’t think it’s a case of being afraid to label it racism Mac. It might well have been (in reality it probably was) but we are talking about a nation with a fetish for guns so deep that it’s enshrined into their constitution. The trigger happy MF would probably have unloaded on the alleged felon regardless of his race.

We can’t begin to work out why most (not all) Americans consider the right to bear arms is more important than stamping out racism because it’s just not in our psyche.

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