Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[Soul Requiem]

First topic message reminder :

The far left is often dependent on where an individual themselves is on the political spectrum, for example Owen Jones may be seen as far left to someone who is centre right but to a centrist will be seen as merely left wing, personally have him down as part of the hard left.

I have him as left wing. Though is hard left not the same as far left because I dont have him as far left. I get tge views based on your own spectrum though. Which is why I hare labour supporters calling Starmer and others right wing.  Left of centre is not right wing.

I would say that hard left is within the standard left wing myself, thinking of someone like Tony Benn being hard left as opposed to Ed Milliband who was soft left, will say however that is possibly closer to far left than it is the centre.

[super_realist]

I thought you had joined a new club Mac? Have to say I do quite like that area up by Braids.

Hazlehead in Aberdeen is a cracking muni Mac.

What will Herr Sturgeon do? She's in a tricky situation because she wants to be doing something but can't afford to alienate business. Can't imagine it will be too draconian as a result.
I have to ask what the point is anyway if it just means the number will go up again in a fortnight. So few people affected that I'd rather take care of the people needing cancer diagnosis etc.

Pavements probably need to be wider because Scots are so fat Mac.

[navyblueshorts]

If you were a billionaire why wouldn't you exile yourself somewhere where you didn't pay as much tax?
There seems to be a massive resentment in Britain for anyone who has done well for themselves and that somehow they shouldn't do so well because not everyone else has.
This politics of envy is pretty pathetic.
If I was as rich as Lewis Hamilton, Branson or whoever I wouldn't be domiciled here either. What I wouldn't do though is complain about Britain if I wasn't paying taxes there.

Aside from the fact that it's pretty selfish of said billionaires (but understandable), agreed.

[navyblueshorts]

If you don't live in the country then you aren't using the police, roads or NHS, so why would you have to pay tax for them?

Are progressive taxes fair? That's your opinion. I can't remember the exact figure but I think I pay 12 times more tax than someone who earns 3x less than me. Doesn't seem too fair to me.

Good job we already have the NHS. Just imagine trying to sell the concept to the average Brit in the 2020s.

[navyblueshorts]

You probably can probably buy a town in the Midlands for that. I pity anyone who has to live there

[navyblueshorts]

You probably can probably buy a town in the Midlands for that. I pity anyone who has to live there

With it's weekly bin collections, working streetlights and tidy, non-slippery pavements. I wouldn't go anywhere near it.

[super_realist]

If you don't live in the country then you aren't using the police, roads or NHS, so why would you have to pay tax for them?

Are progressive taxes fair? That's your opinion. I can't remember the exact figure but I think I pay 12 times more tax than someone who earns 3x less than me. Doesn't seem too fair to me.

Good job we already have the NHS. Just imagine trying to sell the concept to the average Brit in the 2020s.

I'd hope in 2020 we might come out with a better system

[JuliusHMarx]

If you don't live in the country then you aren't using the police, roads or NHS, so why would you have to pay tax for them?

Are progressive taxes fair? That's your opinion. I can't remember the exact figure but I think I pay 12 times more tax than someone who earns 3x less than me. Doesn't seem too fair to me.

Good job we already have the NHS. Just imagine trying to sell the concept to the average Brit in the 2020s.

I'd hope in 2020 we might come out with a better system

No chance. We can't even work out a better system than capitalism.

[super_realist]

If you don't live in the country then you aren't using the police, roads or NHS, so why would you have to pay tax for them?

Are progressive taxes fair? That's your opinion. I can't remember the exact figure but I think I pay 12 times more tax than someone who earns 3x less than me. Doesn't seem too fair to me.

Good job we already have the NHS. Just imagine trying to sell the concept to the average Brit in the 2020s.

I'd hope in 2020 we might come out with a better system

No chance. We can't even work out a better system than capitalism.

Yawn. You wouldnt last 5 minutes without capitalism.

[JuliusHMarx]

If you don't live in the country then you aren't using the police, roads or NHS, so why would you have to pay tax for them?

Are progressive taxes fair? That's your opinion. I can't remember the exact figure but I think I pay 12 times more tax than someone who earns 3x less than me. Doesn't seem too fair to me.

Good job we already have the NHS. Just imagine trying to sell the concept to the average Brit in the 2020s.

I'd hope in 2020 we might come out with a better system

No chance. We can't even work out a better system than capitalism.

Yawn. You wouldnt last 5 minutes without capitalism.

Doesn't make it a good system - it's the best we can think of, because we are an inherently selfish species of fairly limited intelligence.

[super_realist]

It doesn't make it bad either.

[JuliusHMarx]

Have you not seen the state of the world?

[super_realist]

Have you not seen the state of the world?

That's all the fault of capitalism isn't it?

[navyblueshorts]

Have you not seen the state of the world?

That's all the fault of capitalism isn't it?

More or less. I over-simplify, but the same drivers that in other walks of life gives us dictators, autocrats etc; just channelled in a better way through capitalism.

[super_realist]

Then capitalism is just a mask then isn't it and not the actual problem.

The positives in capitalism more than outweigh the negatives. If it didn't we'd have another (and worse) system.

[JuliusHMarx]

Then capitalism is just a mask then isn't it and not the actual problem.

The positives in capitalism more than outweigh the negatives. If it didn't we'd have another (and  worse) system.

Which is pretty much what I said.
It reflects the limits of humans - we haven't evolved enough yet to come up with anything better than a pretty sh1t system.

[McLaren]

If you don't live in the country then you aren't using the police, roads or NHS, so why would you have to pay tax for them?

Are progressive taxes fair? That's your opinion. I can't remember the exact figure but I think I pay 12 times more tax than someone who earns 3x less than me. Doesn't seem too fair to me.

Good job we already have the NHS. Just imagine trying to sell the concept to the average Brit in the 2020s.

This is such a good point Navy. I don't think we would have a chance of selling the concept to the British people of 2020. And it makes you wonder what other great ideas will never happen because they are never explored because of how small minded the modern British populous is.

[super_realist]

Then capitalism is just a mask then isn't it and not the actual problem.

The positives in capitalism more than outweigh the negatives. If it didn't we'd have another (and  worse) system.

Which is pretty much what I said.
It reflects the limits of humans - we haven't evolved enough yet to come up with anything better than a pretty sh1t system.

What an infantile statement.

[super_realist]

If you don't live in the country then you aren't using the police, roads or NHS, so why would you have to pay tax for them?

Are progressive taxes fair? That's your opinion. I can't remember the exact figure but I think I pay 12 times more tax than someone who earns 3x less than me. Doesn't seem too fair to me.

Good job we already have the NHS. Just imagine trying to sell the concept to the average Brit in the 2020s.

This is such a good point Navy. I don't think we would have a chance of selling the concept to the British people of 2020. And it makes you wonder what other great ideas will never happen because they are never explored because of how small minded the modern British populous is.

Any examples in mind Mac or just being your usual simpering self?

[McLaren]

My point was pretty much that the next grand idea like the NHS won't even be put forward because it is obvious the British people would reject it, so no, I don't have an example.

Unless something has a nasty right wing xenophobic bent, like brexit, you can forget hearing about it.

[JuliusHMarx]

Then capitalism is just a mask then isn't it and not the actual problem.

The positives in capitalism more than outweigh the negatives. If it didn't we'd have another (and  worse) system.

Which is pretty much what I said.
It reflects the limits of humans - we haven't evolved enough yet to come up with anything better than a pretty sh1t system.

What an infantile statement.

Hehe. If nothing else you make me smile from time to time

[super_realist]

My point was pretty much that the next grand idea like the NHS won't even be put forward because it is obvious the British people would reject it, so no, I don't have an example.

Unless something has a nasty right wing xenophobic bent, like brexit, you can forget hearing about it.

That is laughable Mac. It is idiotic to think we aren't more enlightened now than in 1948. Are you seriously suggesting you would rather live then than now? You have infinitely more opportunity, equality, freedoms etc now.

There probably has never been a time when we have heard more from the left than now, especially the lunatic left.

[McLaren]

Obviously some parts of society are now more enlightened but do you really think a party standing for election in 2020 with an NHS model (assume it doesn't already exist) in their manifesto could win a general election?

They would be mocked by the press and destroyed at the polls. There is no reason to think that if the UK had to it could move from a private healthcare model to national single payer model an more easily than the US.

[super_realist]

Obviously some parts of society are now more enlightened but do you really think a party standing for election in 2020 with an NHS model (assume it doesn't already exist) in their manifesto could win a general election?

They would be mocked by the press and destroyed at the polls. There is no reason to think that if the UK had to it could move from a private healthcare model to national single payer model an more easily than the US.

I would hope that the UK wouldn't be so stupid to go down the route of the NHS and picked a model which was more efficient and less wasteful and adopted something more like the Swedish health system instead. Whether or not it was adopted is pure conjecture and utterly dependent on the type of system we currently had in your hypothetical scenario.

Why wouldn't we accept it? We have accepted lots of changes throughout time that 70 years go you wouldn't have thought would be the case.

[superflyweight]

My point was pretty much that the next grand idea like the NHS won't even be put forward because it is obvious the British people would reject it, so no, I don't have an example.

Unless something has a nasty right wing xenophobic bent, like brexit, you can forget hearing about it.

That is laughable Mac. It is idiotic to think we aren't more enlightened now than in 1948. Are you seriously suggesting you would rather live then than now? You have infinitely more opportunity, equality, freedoms etc now.

There probably has never been a time when we have heard more from the left than now, especially the lunatic left.

Balanced by the fact that the lunatic right also have a greater platform for expressing their views.

[super_realist]

Ha ha ha. Have you looked at social media lately? It is massively left wing as are broadcast media like the BBC, Channel 4 etc or print/Internet media like the tax dodging Guardian.
Then you have left wing cults like BLM and XR spouting their views apparently without having to adhere to any covid rules.

It's a compete myth that the left don't have a platform on the same level as the right.

[Soul Requiem]

Whilst social media probably does veer more towards the left than the right it doesn't stop it from being used as a platform of hate from the likes of Tommy Robinson and his idiot EDL friends. Without social media he would not be capable of getting hateful message across to the same extent.

[super_realist]

Whilst social media probably does veer more towards the left than the right it doesn't stop it from being used as a platform of hate from the likes of Tommy Robinson and his idiot EDL friends. Without social media he would not be capable of getting hateful message across to the same extent.

It does stop them actually as they are banned (rightly)

[superflyweight]

It's not a competition - you appear to be actively going out of your way to seek out the views of people you deem to be "lunatic" and then using arguments put forward by those people as a means of denigrating anything that doesn't accord with your world view.

Social media can be whatever you want it to be - follow whoever you want to hear from or better still, don't read social media.

I assume that you're only claiming that print media is massively left wing because you got a bit over excited when you were typing that one out.

The BBC is also demonstrably not left wing - it's trying to balance itself in the centre and as a result has become ineffective at properly analysing stories and holding anyone to account (due to a fear of offending one side or the other).

[super_realist]

You are right, I'm just challenging the lie that the right have more of the media, that is not the case, certainly in this country/continent.

The BBC has had to apologise for political bias and only in the last month have they sought to redress that by appointing a more sensible chairman who has identified the bias as something which needs immediately sorted.
They also sacked their only right of centre presenter, Andrew Neil and have appointed loony left Lewis Moody who has already been criticised for espousing political opinion.
Not left wing? Come on.

[Soul Requiem]

Whilst social media probably does veer more towards the left than the right it doesn't stop it from being used as a platform of hate from the likes of Tommy Robinson and his idiot EDL friends. Without social media he would not be capable of getting hateful message across to the same extent.

It does stop them  actually as they are banned (rightly)

They are now but years of vitriol has done the damage already me thinks.

[super_realist]

Whilst social media probably does veer more towards the left than the right it doesn't stop it from being used as a platform of hate from the likes of Tommy Robinson and his idiot EDL friends. Without social media he would not be capable of getting hateful message across to the same extent.

It does stop them  actually as they are banned (rightly)

They are now but years of vitriol has done the damage already me thinks.

I'm glad they're off, but it doesn't change the fact that social media, which is far more important than print media these days is massively left wing.

[superflyweight]

Whilst social media probably does veer more towards the left than the right it doesn't stop it from being used as a platform of hate from the likes of Tommy Robinson and his idiot EDL friends. Without social media he would not be capable of getting hateful message across to the same extent.

It does stop them  actually as they are banned (rightly)

They are now but years of vitriol has done the damage already me thinks.

I'm glad they're off, but it doesn't change the fact that social media, which is far more important than print media these days is massively left wing.

Perhaps it just reflects the opinions of those who use it?

[Soul Requiem]

What difference does that make to anything?

Extinction rebellion are in my opinion a group doing more damage than they are good but equally they're not proclaiming immigrants and in particular Muslims to be the source of the worlds problems so leave them to it.

[super_realist]

What difference does that make to anything?

Extinction rebellion are in my opinion a group doing more damage than they are good but equally they're not proclaiming immigrants and in particular Muslims to be the source of the worlds problems so leave them to it.

No one is listening to either XR or the EDL, so what's your point?

[Soul Requiem]

That's news to me, the whole reason they're in the public consciousness is because people do listen to them and then their friends listen to them etc.

[super_realist]

That's news to me, the whole reason they're in the public consciousness is because people do listen to them and then their friends listen to them etc.

They are a massively minority view (EDL) because despite how stupid the  British gebrrally are, they aren't that bad.

Are they in the public consciousness anyway? When was the last time you heard anything from them and can you name anyone who is being influenced by them?

XR aren't especially influential either as most people can see through their in accurate claims and are simply fed up of them.

[Soul Requiem]

You're transposing your own views on both groups to the wider population there and minority view or not social media gives/gave them a platform to espouse such views.

[super_realist]

You're transposing your own views on both groups to the wider population there and minority view or not social media gives/gave them a platform to espouse such views.

You're the one claiming that the left aren't represented in the media. I've provided examples of why this isn't true and you're just ignoring it.

You're also making the claim that the likes of the EDL are having an influence on people yet you can't name any. The vast majority see them as the laughing stock they are just as most people do with most hard right (and hard left) views.

[Soul Requiem]

Where have I said that the left aren't represented in the media?

I don't need to name specific people as it is abundantly clear that they have influenced people hence why they have followers and those who turn up to rallies. The argument isn't about the majority and your insistence on trying to make it so is a tad futile.

[super_realist]

Where have I said that the left aren't represented in the media?

I don't need to name specific people as it is abundantly clear that they have influenced people hence why they have followers and those who turn up to rallies. The argument isn't about the majority and your insistence on trying to make it so is a tad futile.

You just said they're a minority so they're clearly not as influential as they claim. You can't even be consistent.
So as they are an extreme minority, who cares about their social media presence? Hardly anyone is listening to them. They are about as relevant as David Icke

[Soul Requiem]

Where have I said that the left aren't represented in the media?

I don't need to name specific people as it is abundantly clear that they have influenced people hence why they have followers and those who turn up to rallies. The argument isn't about the majority and your insistence on trying to make it so is a tad futile.

You just said they're a minority so they're clearly not as influential as they claim. You can't even be consistent.
So as they are an extreme minority, who cares about their social media presence? Hardly anyone is listening to them. They are about as relevant as David Icke

What?

[super_realist]

The bottom line is there are all sorts of maniacs and morons on social media like twitter and YouTube. The point is that hardly anyone pays attention to them. Not sure why you really are making such a big thing out of it.

Whether you are right or left there is plenty media outlet and representation.

[Soul Requiem]

Ha ha ha. Have you looked at social media lately? It is massively left wing as are broadcast media like the BBC, Channel 4 etc or print/Internet media like the tax dodging Guardian.
Then you have left wing cults like BLM and XR spouting their views apparently without having to adhere to any covid rules.

It's a compete myth that the left don't have a platform on the same level as the right.

Hmmmm

[super_realist]

Ha ha ha. Have you looked at social media lately? It is massively left wing as are broadcast media like the BBC, Channel 4 etc or print/Internet media like the tax dodging Guardian.
Then you have left wing cults like BLM and XR spouting their views apparently without having to adhere to any covid rules.

It's a compete myth that the left don't have a platform on the same level as the right.

Hmmmm

Hmmm what?

[beninho]

Just checking that this claim of the lefty media being everywhere, isn't including g print media. As obviously the biggest selling newspapers are all at least right of centre as things stand.

And social media is full of cranks and weirdos. Katie Hopkins had over 1 million followers.

Social media is dictated by what you want to look at.

[super_realist]

Just checking that this claim of the lefty media being everywhere, isn't including g print media. As obviously the biggest selling newspapers are all at least right of centre as things stand.

And social media is full of cranks and weirdos. Katie Hopkins had over 1 million followers.

Social media is dictated by what you want to look at.

It's pretty clear the print media isn't that important anymore. How often do you or anyone you know buy a newspaper?
Anyway if you want left wing print media you have The Guardian, Mirror, New Statesman, Morning Star, Socialist Worker etc.

You are right though in terms of social media, you can find what ever you want (and choose to ignore whatever you like)

[beninho]

My dad still gets a newspaper delivered on the weekends. He is your classic mail reader.

[Soul Requiem]

Just checking that this claim of the lefty media being everywhere, isn't including g print media. As obviously the biggest selling newspapers are all at least right of centre as things stand.

And social media is full of cranks and weirdos. Katie Hopkins had over 1 million followers.

Social media is dictated by what you want to look at.

It's pretty clear the print media isn't that important anymore. How often do you or anyone you know buy a newspaper?
Anyway if you want left wing print media you have The Guardian, Mirror, New Statesman, Morning Star, Socialist Worker etc.

You are right though in terms of social media, you can find  what ever you want (and choose to ignore whatever you like)

Print media is now prevalent online where each newspaper has millions of followers with constant links to online articles. The Daily Mail for instance has more facebook followers than any left wing paper.

[super_realist]

There's no conspiracy keeping left wing media from putting out content if they want to, the problem is whether there is demand.
You do realise the Daily Mail now has a lefty remainer Editor?

The problem seems to be that there is an inference that if you aren't left wing, then it must mean you are a hard right swivel eyed Tommy Robinson fan. It simply isn't true.

Who cares anyway? Isn't as if you are going to have your mind changed by a newspaper or twitter moron.

[superflyweight]

You're transposing your own views on both groups to the wider population there and minority view or not social media gives/gave them a platform to espouse such views.

You're the one claiming that the left aren't represented in the media. I've provided examples of why this isn't true and you're just ignoring it.

You're also making the claim that the likes of the EDL are having an influence on people yet you can't name any. The vast majority see them as the laughing stock they are just as most people do with most hard right (and hard left) views.

I think that's a misunderstanding of the point I made earlier when I said that the lunatic right had a greater ability to express their opinions. I wasn't comparing them to the left and their ability to express their opinions, I was making the point that people now have greater ability to express their opinions widely than they did in the past.

On your other point, why do you get so wound up by XR etc. given how irrelevant they are?

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