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Heineken Cup QF - Leinster v Saracens 19 Sep

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Post by Pot Hale Mon 14 Sep 2020, 7:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

Last weekend, Leinster were playing in a PRO14 Championship final with a full First team 23 squad out playing. Meanwhile Saracens fielded their 2nds and 3rds in a meaningless game against Exeter and rested all their stars.

Both teams operate good academies and make use of their players during the season. Saracens will be without their inside centre/10 Owen Farrell and Leinster may be without TH Tadgh Furlong and opensider Dan Leavy who was a real thorn in the side for the Londoners the last time he played them in 2018.

Neither side underestimates the other in their ability to match stout defence with relentless attack. The differences between the two teams may come from the bench at the hour mark.

With a French referee officiating, both teams will have to learn to adapt quickly to his interpretation of the new breakdown laws.

Odds for this match have Leinster at 1/4 and Saracens at 3/1. But between these two teams, nothing is certain. In Head to Head it’s currently 3-1 in favour of the newly installed PRO14 Champions.

Should be a cracker with Saracens season the line before they head for the other Championship.

Chip away.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 5:24 am

quinsforever wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Rhodes citing came from the 2nd min of the game. Looks pretty much a red from the angle I've seen. Not sure it counted towards his motm or not.

this is right up there with the dumbest posts here. and thats saying something

Coming from you that means absolutely nothing.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 23 Sep 2020, 7:27 am

Hazel Sapling wrote:Only ended up watching the second half so no idea what happened in the first. Leinster's scrum sounded/seemed like it had collapsed (was it 7 penalties in the end?). It is hard to win when a set piece is falling apart and who had M Vunipola and Koch winning the contest so thoroughly against Healy and Porter.

Well done to Sarries, got some 80 minute efforts from M Vunipola and Itoje as well as several others I have probably forgotten. Surprised they managed to get such a lead, however they managed to hold on at the end. Get a lovely semi final against Racing next week!

Well if you see how on top Leinster were in the second half that was Sarries in the first half except Sarries had the Leinster props on toast for all 80 minutes. Sarries just pressured penalty after penalty out of Leinster and built a big lead on 3 pointers and one exceptional first phase move from a lineout.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 7:35 am

Rhodes has got away with it. Looked pretty deliberate to me.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 9:49 am

Thoroughly enjoyed this match. What a performance by Sarries. So great to see a team get an away win against a big spending side.

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Post by Pot Hale Wed 23 Sep 2020, 10:39 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:Thoroughly enjoyed this match. What a performance by Sarries. So great to see a team get an away win against a big spending side.

Absolutely. A huge spending side who have twice the budget of every other team in the competition - a veritable David vs Goliath. And the amount of penalties and off the ball incidents that they were allowed away with was just shocking. The margin should have been a lot greater with a couple of Leinster players sent off for at least ten minutes. Saracens had to battle against all the odds, even having to play in the empty home ground of the opposition - and still they won. Just goes to show the complete inadequacy of the PRO14 teams and the poor standard of the competition.
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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 1:27 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:Thoroughly enjoyed this match. What a performance by Sarries. So great to see a team get an away win against a big spending side.

Absolutely.   A huge spending side who have twice the budget of every other team in the competition - a veritable David vs Goliath.   And the amount of penalties and off the ball incidents that they were allowed away with was just shocking.  The margin should have been a lot greater with a couple of Leinster players sent off for at least ten minutes.  Saracens had to battle against all the odds, even having to play in the empty home ground of the opposition - and still they won.    Just goes to show the complete inadequacy of the PRO14 teams and the poor standard of the competition.

Pretty much.

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Post by PhilBB Wed 23 Sep 2020, 1:29 pm

Poor selection from Cullen. He should have picked Byrne. Maybe Farrell told him not to.
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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 23 Sep 2020, 2:43 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:Thoroughly enjoyed this match. What a performance by Sarries. So great to see a team get an away win against a big spending side.

I thought Sarries were biggest spending side in Britain & Ireland?

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 2:51 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:Thoroughly enjoyed this match. What a performance by Sarries. So great to see a team get an away win against a big spending side.

I thought Sarries were biggest spending side in Britain & Ireland?
You thought wrong it seems.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 2:54 pm

How much were Saracens spending?

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 2:56 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:How much were Saracens spending?

When they were punished, or now?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 3:03 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:How much were Saracens spending?

When they were punished, or now?

Punishment was handed out earlier this season. How much were they spending and how much are they spending then if that's how you're trying to wriggle out of answering?!

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 3:08 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:How much were Saracens spending?

When they were punished, or now?

Punishment was handed out earlier this season. How much were they spending and how much are they spending then if that's how you're trying to wriggle out of answering?!

We're told from media reports that Saracens were £1.5m - £2m over the cap. so they were on about £9m (perhaps not including the 2 marquee players). Now they are under the cap (£7m) after shedding 6 players.

From next season, the English cap will be reduced to £5.6m

We're told from media, that Leinster spend just over £8m on player payroll per season. So a large gap now, and an even huger gap in the next 3 seasons. Leinster really should be winning everything in sight.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 3:11 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:How much were Saracens spending?

When they were punished, or now?

Punishment was handed out earlier this season. How much were they spending and how much are they spending then if that's how you're trying to wriggle out of answering?!

We're told from media reports that Saracens were £1.5m - £2m over the cap. so they were on about £9m (perhaps not including the 2 marquee players). Now they are under the cap (£7m) after shedding 6 players.

From next season, the English cap will be reduced to £5.6m

We're told from media, that Leinster spend just over £8m on player payroll per season. So a large gap now, and an even huger gap in the next 3 seasons. Leinster really should be winning everything in sight.

So quite likely that Saracens even now are outspending Leinster, give the marquees. And that's if they aren't trying to cheat again.

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Post by mikey_dragon Wed 23 Sep 2020, 3:27 pm

This game took place during 2019-2020 season, so Sarries were spending more then. Not to take anything away from them as this was a big win with a reduced squad.

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Post by Brendan Wed 23 Sep 2020, 4:04 pm

As Tigers might show us next year players don't have to be at your club to still be on your wage bill.

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Post by PhilBB Wed 23 Sep 2020, 4:08 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:This game took place during 2019-2020 season, so Sarries were spending more then. Not to take anything away from them as this was a big win with a reduced squad.

The team that thumped Leinster were within the cap agreed by PRL
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Post by PhilBB Wed 23 Sep 2020, 4:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:How much were Saracens spending?

When they were punished, or now?

Punishment was handed out earlier this season. How much were they spending and how much are they spending then if that's how you're trying to wriggle out of answering?!

We're told from media reports that Saracens were £1.5m - £2m over the cap. so they were on about £9m (perhaps not including the 2 marquee players). Now they are under the cap (£7m) after shedding 6 players.

From next season, the English cap will be reduced to £5.6m

We're told from media, that Leinster spend just over £8m on player payroll per season. So a large gap now, and an even huger gap in the next 3 seasons. Leinster really should be winning everything in sight.

So quite likely that Saracens even now are outspending Leinster, give the marquees. And that's if they aren't trying to cheat again.

For them to be outspending Leinster now, you'd have to think their two marquee players were earning something like €2m a year each.

Leinster's spend is clearly close to €10m.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 4:15 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:How much were Saracens spending?

When they were punished, or now?

Punishment was handed out earlier this season. How much were they spending and how much are they spending then if that's how you're trying to wriggle out of answering?!

We're told from media reports that Saracens were £1.5m - £2m over the cap. so they were on about £9m (perhaps not including the 2 marquee players). Now they are under the cap (£7m) after shedding 6 players.

From next season, the English cap will be reduced to £5.6m

We're told from media, that Leinster spend just over £8m on player payroll per season. So a large gap now, and an even huger gap in the next 3 seasons. Leinster really should be winning everything in sight.

So quite likely that Saracens even now are outspending Leinster, give the marquees. And that's if they aren't trying to cheat again.

For them to be outspending Leinster now, you'd have to think their two marquee players were earning something like €2m a year each.

Leinster's spend is clearly close to €10m.

Who knows with Saracens. They cheat so they could be spending anything. I'm not sure saracens are the golden example of how brilliantly the english league works.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 4:16 pm

PhilBB wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:This game took place during 2019-2020 season, so Sarries were spending more then. Not to take anything away from them as this was a big win with a reduced squad.

The team that thumped Leinster were within the cap agreed by PRL

You talking about this season?

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Post by PhilBB Wed 23 Sep 2020, 4:19 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Who knows with Saracens. They cheat so they could be spending anything. I'm not sure saracens are the golden example of how brilliantly the english league works.

The Salary Cap Manager knows, mate, so you can put your contrary head to rest on that one.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 23 Sep 2020, 4:20 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:This game took place during 2019-2020 season, so Sarries were spending more then. Not to take anything away from them as this was a big win with a reduced squad.

The team that thumped Leinster were within the cap agreed by PRL

You talking about this season?

I'm writing about the recent European Champions Cup quarter final
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 4:25 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Who knows with Saracens. They cheat so they could be spending anything. I'm not sure saracens are the golden example of how brilliantly the english league works.

The Salary Cap Manager knows, mate, so you can put your contrary head to rest on that one.

Yup. Just like they did for the last 5 seasons.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 4:26 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:This game took place during 2019-2020 season, so Sarries were spending more then. Not to take anything away from them as this was a big win with a reduced squad.

The team that thumped Leinster were within the cap agreed by PRL

You talking about this season?

I'm writing about the recent European Champions Cup quarter final

Wasnt a thumping then and very lucky they weren't down to 14 after a minute. Why do you dislike the irish so much?

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Post by PhilBB Wed 23 Sep 2020, 4:27 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Who knows with Saracens. They cheat so they could be spending anything. I'm not sure saracens are the golden example of how brilliantly the english league works.

The Salary Cap Manager knows, mate, so you can put your contrary head to rest on that one.

Yup. Just like they did for the last 5 seasons.

Exactly. That's how they caught them, once their peers instructed action.

You got there.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 23 Sep 2020, 4:28 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Wasnt a thumping then and very lucky they weren't down to 14 after a minute. Why do you dislike the irish so much?

Why have you conflated the IRFU with millions and millions of people.

I guess that you didn't watch that game. It doesn't surprise me.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 4:33 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Wasnt a thumping then and very lucky they weren't down to 14 after a minute. Why do you dislike the irish so much?

Why have you conflated the IRFU with millions and millions of people.

I guess that you didn't watch that game. It doesn't surprise me.

Yup I watched it. Very much a game influenced by the wind. Definitely not a thumping.

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Post by Brendan Wed 23 Sep 2020, 4:34 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:This game took place during 2019-2020 season, so Sarries were spending more then. Not to take anything away from them as this was a big win with a reduced squad.

The team that thumped Leinster were within the cap agreed by PRL

You talking about this season?

Was not the revisit of the penalty and the subsequent 70pts deduction down to them not abiding by the cap this current year. They refused to open the books on the year and took relegation. I guess that's what you do when you are under the cap

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 4:34 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

Who knows with Saracens. They cheat so they could be spending anything. I'm not sure saracens are the golden example of how brilliantly the english league works.

The Salary Cap Manager knows, mate, so you can put your contrary head to rest on that one.

Yup. Just like they did for the last 5 seasons.

Exactly. That's how they caught them, once their peers instructed action.

You got there.

So given the salary cap manager was happy enough for those years I woildnt really trust that because they're happy now it means that saracens arent cheating.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 4:36 pm

Brendan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:This game took place during 2019-2020 season, so Sarries were spending more then. Not to take anything away from them as this was a big win with a reduced squad.

The team that thumped Leinster were within the cap agreed by PRL

You talking about this season?

Was not the revisit of the penalty and the subsequent 70pts deduction down to them not abiding by the cap this current year. They refused to open the books on the year and took relegation. I guess that's what you do when you are under the cap

I mean I can appreciate they had a great squad, academy, coaches....pretence that they are the ideal and it's better to play in a league with them over a team like Leinster who play to the rules....its just odd.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 23 Sep 2020, 5:52 pm

Brendan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:This game took place during 2019-2020 season, so Sarries were spending more then. Not to take anything away from them as this was a big win with a reduced squad.

The team that thumped Leinster were within the cap agreed by PRL

You talking about this season?

Was not the revisit of the penalty and the subsequent 70pts deduction down to them not abiding by the cap this current year.  They refused to open the books on the year and took relegation.  I guess that's what you do when you are under the cap

They can't refuse to open the books, they accepted a settlement to bring the investigation to a conclusion. Which is understandable as I'm sure they wanted their name and their players names out of the media spotlight. Since then the following players have either left or are out on loan.

1. Carre
2. Singleton
3. Lamisotele (could have also gone Figallo)
4. Kruis
5. Skelton
6. Isiekwe
7. Earl
8.
9. Spencer
10. Mallins
11. Hakalo
12. Tompkins
13. Lozowski
14. Gallagher
15. Williams

Nearly an entire team of players and all bar Gallagher and Mallins are capped and the likelihood they both will be in the next couple of years. That's a lot of salary cap to free up. Technically the salary cap period runs from July to June so I assume we are in the 2020/21 cap year despite finishing the 2019/20 season. Wigglesworth, Barritt and Goode will all depart shortly as well. They are pretty much using the squad they will use in the Championship next season.

Saracens major fall down appears to have been the co-investments between Wray and certain players. Those players where long time servants of the club rather than players the club were trying to attract which makes me almost sympathetic but not quite. Sarries deserve the punishment they are getting.

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Post by RugbyFan100 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 6:00 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:.

1. Carre
2. Singleton
3. Lamisotele (could have also gone Figallo)
4. Kruis
5. Skelton
6. Isiekwe
7. Earl
8.
9. Spencer
10. Mallins
11. Hakalo
12. Tompkins
13. Lozowski
14. Gallagher
15. Williams

Wow, hadn't realised they had offloaded so many. Makes the win over Leinster even more of an achievement. Extremely impressive.

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Post by Recwatcher16 Wed 23 Sep 2020, 6:11 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Saracens major fall down appears to have been the co-investments between Wray and certain players. Those players where long time servants of the club rather than players the club were trying to attract which makes me almost sympathetic but not quite. Sarries deserve the punishment they are getting.

Saracens clearly broke the rules, so there has to be consequences.The Salary rules though were a fudge. These investments in private companies were from private individuals (not just Wray) for existing players and was certainly not Saracens money and not subject to HMRC income tax either. All the professional bodies make noises about looking after players, when they move on from the game, but that is all it is, just noise.

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Post by Brendan Wed 23 Sep 2020, 6:38 pm

Recwatcher16 wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:

Saracens major fall down appears to have been the co-investments between Wray and certain players. Those players where long time servants of the club rather than players the club were trying to attract which makes me almost sympathetic but not quite. Sarries deserve the punishment they are getting.

Saracens clearly broke the rules, so there has to be consequences.The Salary rules though were a fudge. These investments in private companies were from private individuals (not just Wray) for existing players and was certainly not Saracens money and not subject to HMRC income tax either. All the professional bodies make noises about looking after players, when they move on from the game, but that is all it is, just noise.

Totaly agree, would be good if ever player was offered these comparable to their pay. Might also help to build the Clubs income in the future

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 23 Sep 2020, 7:10 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:How much were Saracens spending?

When they were punished, or now?

Punishment was handed out earlier this season. How much were they spending and how much are they spending then if that's how you're trying to wriggle out of answering?!

We're told from media reports that Saracens were £1.5m - £2m over the cap. so they were on about £9m (perhaps not including the 2 marquee players). Now they are under the cap (£7m) after shedding 6 players.

From next season, the English cap will be reduced to £5.6m

We're told from media, that Leinster spend just over £8m on player payroll per season. So a large gap now, and an even huger gap in the next 3 seasons. Leinster really should be winning everything in sight.

So quite likely that Saracens even now are outspending Leinster, give the marquees. And that's if they aren't trying to cheat again.

For them to be outspending Leinster now, you'd have to think their two marquee players were earning something like €2m a year each.

Leinster's spend is clearly close to €10m.
only 10m? I would've thought we'd be well over that.

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Post by Pot Hale Thu 24 Sep 2020, 1:06 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:How much were Saracens spending?

When they were punished, or now?

Punishment was handed out earlier this season. How much were they spending and how much are they spending then if that's how you're trying to wriggle out of answering?!

We're told from media reports that Saracens were £1.5m - £2m over the cap. so they were on about £9m (perhaps not including the 2 marquee players). Now they are under the cap (£7m) after shedding 6 players.

From next season, the English cap will be reduced to £5.6m

We're told from media, that Leinster spend just over £8m on player payroll per season. So a large gap now, and an even huger gap in the next 3 seasons. Leinster really should be winning everything in sight.

So quite likely that Saracens even now are outspending Leinster, give the marquees. And that's if they aren't trying to cheat again.

For them to be outspending Leinster now, you'd have to think their two marquee players were earning something like €2m a year each.

Leinster's spend is clearly close to €10m.
only 10m? I would've thought we'd be well over that.

I reckon it's close to €15m plus all those central contract players and the coaches n stuff. Sure the IRFU give them 40m every year with a few quid to the other provinces.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 24 Sep 2020, 10:41 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:

So given the salary cap manager was happy enough for those years I woildnt really trust that because they're happy now it means that saracens arent cheating.

He was happy because their peers didn't instruct sanction. You know, the key part of the sentence that, for reasons of your wish to be contrary, you ignored.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 24 Sep 2020, 10:42 am

Pot Hale wrote:

I reckon it's close to €15m plus all those central contract players and the coaches n stuff.  Sure the IRFU give them 40m every year with a few quid to the other provinces.

All players are centrally contracted, as you know.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 24 Sep 2020, 11:18 am

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:

So given the salary cap manager was happy enough for those years I woildnt really trust that because they're happy now it means that saracens arent cheating.

He was happy because their peers didn't instruct sanction. You know, the key part of the sentence that, for reasons of your wish to be contrary, you ignored.

Well there we go. Salary cap was ignored and so hard to say what Saracens were spending then or now.

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Post by Pot Hale Thu 24 Sep 2020, 12:02 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

I reckon it's close to €15m plus all those central contract players and the coaches n stuff.  Sure the IRFU give them 40m every year with a few quid to the other provinces.

All players are centrally contracted, as you know.

You misunderstand the language. The players are mainly contracted through the provinces (owned by the shareholder clubs in each province). There are 15 players with Category A "central contracts" meaning the IRFU pay 100% of it - it doesn't come out of the provinces' budgets. The IRFU contribute fixed percentages to the other squad members through other category contracts B-E). Each province gets the same amount - as stated by a number of the provincial coaches in media.

Leinster player budget is probably about €5m-€5.5m (exc the cost of central contract players paid by IRFU) but not the coaches or admin. The IRFU contributed €31-32m approx which included all the competition income the provinces earned - I think 13.5m total last year from P14 and EPCR. Ireland management team salaries and test player match fees plus bonuses are paid by the IRFU and are separate on top of that - as confirmed by IRFU.

Leinster generate normally (non-Covid) about €8.5m in ticket sales out of a turnover of €18m approx. Share of Competition Income plus sponsorship/merchandising generates another €4.5m approx, so probably €4.5m to €5m from IRFU central. With pay cuts of 10-20% being imposed due to Covid, these costs and incomes will reduce further.

The player roster now has 19 academy players (7.5k avg), approx 15 Dev Contract players (€63k avg), approx 12 low-value senior players (€116k avg), 13 high-value senior players (€182k avg), 1 foreign capped player (300k) and 6 central contract players (€392k avg).
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Post by PhilBB Thu 24 Sep 2020, 12:08 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

I reckon it's close to €15m plus all those central contract players and the coaches n stuff.  Sure the IRFU give them 40m every year with a few quid to the other provinces.

All players are centrally contracted, as you know.

You misunderstand the language.   The players are mainly contracted through the provinces (owned by the shareholder clubs in each province).  There are 15 players with Category A "central contracts" meaning the IRFU pay 100% of it - it doesn't come out of the provinces' budgets.  The IRFU contribute fixed percentages to the other squad members through other category contracts B-E).  Each province gets the same amount - as stated by a number of the provincial coaches in media.  

Leinster player budget is probably about €5m-€5.5m (exc the cost of central contract players paid by IRFU) but not the coaches or admin.   The IRFU contributed €31-32m approx which included all the competition income the provinces earned - I think 13.5m total last year from P14 and EPCR. Ireland management team salaries and test player match fees plus bonuses are paid by the IRFU and are separate on top of that - as confirmed by IRFU.  

Leinster generate normally (non-Covid) about €8.5m in ticket sales out of a turnover of €18m approx. Share of Competition Income plus sponsorship/merchandising generates another €4.5m approx, so probably €4.5m to €5m from IRFU central. With pay cuts of 10-20% being imposed due to Covid, these costs and incomes will reduce further.

The player roster now has 19 academy players (7.5k avg), approx 15 Dev Contract players (€63k avg), approx 12 low-value senior players (€116k avg), 13 high-value senior players (€182k avg), 1 foreign capped player (300k) and 6 central contract players (€392k avg).  

I misunderstand nothing. If players are contracted and controlled by the IRFU then they are all centrally contracted. That's the definition of a central contract.

The IRFU contributed north of €40m according to its Annual Report, so where does the €31-32m come in to it?
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Post by Pot Hale Thu 24 Sep 2020, 12:43 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

I reckon it's close to €15m plus all those central contract players and the coaches n stuff.  Sure the IRFU give them 40m every year with a few quid to the other provinces.

All players are centrally contracted, as you know.

You misunderstand the language.   The players are mainly contracted through the provinces (owned by the shareholder clubs in each province).  There are 15 players with Category A "central contracts" meaning the IRFU pay 100% of it - it doesn't come out of the provinces' budgets.  The IRFU contribute fixed percentages to the other squad members through other category contracts B-E).  Each province gets the same amount - as stated by a number of the provincial coaches in media.  

Leinster player budget is probably about €5m-€5.5m (exc the cost of central contract players paid by IRFU) but not the coaches or admin.   The IRFU contributed €31-32m approx which included all the competition income the provinces earned - I think 13.5m total last year from P14 and EPCR. Ireland management team salaries and test player match fees plus bonuses are paid by the IRFU and are separate on top of that - as confirmed by IRFU.  

Leinster generate normally (non-Covid) about €8.5m in ticket sales out of a turnover of €18m approx. Share of Competition Income plus sponsorship/merchandising generates another €4.5m approx, so probably €4.5m to €5m from IRFU central. With pay cuts of 10-20% being imposed due to Covid, these costs and incomes will reduce further.

The player roster now has 19 academy players (7.5k avg), approx 15 Dev Contract players (€63k avg), approx 12 low-value senior players (€116k avg), 13 high-value senior players (€182k avg), 1 foreign capped player (300k) and 6 central contract players (€392k avg).  

I misunderstand nothing. If players are contracted and controlled by the IRFU then they are all centrally contracted. That's the definition of a central contract.

The IRFU contributed north of €40m according to its Annual Report, so where does the €31-32m come in to it?

You do misunderstand. The phrase "central contract" in Irish Rugby is understood commonly by all. You are choosing to put a different meaning on it. It refers to the contracting of the top elite players - 15 in all. I've explained clearly above what it means, and it is used widely within media in Ireland and elsewhere. I've also explained clearly what the 31-32m is - what it includes by way of provincial-generated income and what costs are on top of that to cover test team management and player costs.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 24 Sep 2020, 1:27 pm

Pot Hale wrote:

You do misunderstand.  The phrase "central contract" in Irish Rugby is understood commonly by all.  You are choosing to put a different meaning on it. It refers to the contracting of the top elite players - 15 in all.  I've explained clearly above what it means, and it is used widely within media in Ireland and elsewhere.   I've also explained clearly what the 31-32m is - what it includes by way of provincial-generated income and what costs are on top of that to cover test team management and player costs.      

I don't misunderstand because "Irish rugby" doesn't have the rights to misuse a commonly used term.

The €31m isn't noted at all in the IRFU Annual Report.
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Post by RugbyFan100 Thu 24 Sep 2020, 4:06 pm

Pot Hale wrote:  The IRFU contributed €31-32m approx which included all the competition income the provinces earned - I think 13.5m total last year from P14 and EPCR.

That's an astonishing claim Laugh if I'm reading it correctly.

That is £16m to the 4 Irish provinces. (funding minus competition moneys)

The corresponding figure for the 4 Welsh teams was expected to be £26m this season. (again - funding minus competition moneys)

Are you telling us that the 4 Irish provinces are funded to the tune of £10m less than the 4 x Welsh teams? I must be reading it wrong.

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Post by Pot Hale Thu 24 Sep 2020, 6:15 pm

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:  The IRFU contributed €31-32m approx which included all the competition income the provinces earned - I think 13.5m total last year from P14 and EPCR.

That's an astonishing claim Laugh if I'm reading it correctly.

That is £16m to the 4 Irish provinces. (funding minus competition moneys)

The corresponding figure for the 4 Welsh teams was expected to be £26m this season. (again - funding minus competition moneys)

Are you telling us that the 4 Irish provinces are funded to the tune of £10m less than the 4 x Welsh teams? I must be reading it wrong.

I’m not telling you anything. If the WRU has suddenly decided to increase the funding to 3 of its rugby regions to the levels you claim well it’s about time. Good to hear.
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Post by Pot Hale Thu 24 Sep 2020, 6:27 pm

PhilBB wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:

You do misunderstand.  The phrase "central contract" in Irish Rugby is understood commonly by all.  You are choosing to put a different meaning on it. It refers to the contracting of the top elite players - 15 in all.  I've explained clearly above what it means, and it is used widely within media in Ireland and elsewhere.   I've also explained clearly what the 31-32m is - what it includes by way of provincial-generated income and what costs are on top of that to cover test team management and player costs.      

I don't misunderstand because "Irish rugby" doesn't have the rights to misuse a commonly used term.

The €31m isn't noted at all in the IRFU Annual Report.

You did misunderstand. Deliberately it would appear. As you have been aware of the distinction previously. And then chose to insist on a different interpretation.

Never mind - now you know. The IRFU sometimes state how much of a contribution they make specifically to provinces; other times they don’t. It’s always a subset of the Player and Management Costs. They do also provide detail on what the monies are spent on. As I have pointed out with relevant quotes on previous occasions. Your belief that over €40m is all spent solely on player salaries is inaccurate.
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Post by RugbyFan100 Thu 24 Sep 2020, 6:46 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:  The IRFU contributed €31-32m approx which included all the competition income the provinces earned - I think 13.5m total last year from P14 and EPCR.

That's an astonishing claim Laugh if I'm reading it correctly.

That is £16m to the 4 Irish provinces. (funding minus competition moneys)

The corresponding figure for the 4 Welsh teams was expected to be £26m this season. (again - funding minus competition moneys)

Are you telling us that the 4 Irish provinces are funded to the tune of £10m less than the 4 x Welsh teams? I must be reading it wrong.

I’m not telling you anything.  If the WRU has suddenly decided to increase the funding to 3 of its rugby regions to the levels you claim well it’s about time.   Good to hear.  

Good grief, you're serious aren't you. The WRU has been paying the regions around £20m pa before competition money for the last few seasons. That's £4m per season more than what you claim the 4 Irish provinces are funded per season.

Laugh Laugh I don't think I've ever seen anything so daft written. Those world cup winning south african players at Munster really must be being paid in beer tokens and hugs.

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Post by Pot Hale Fri 25 Sep 2020, 12:10 am

RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
RugbyFan100 wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:  The IRFU contributed €31-32m approx which included all the competition income the provinces earned - I think 13.5m total last year from P14 and EPCR.

That's an astonishing claim Laugh if I'm reading it correctly.

That is £16m to the 4 Irish provinces. (funding minus competition moneys)

The corresponding figure for the 4 Welsh teams was expected to be £26m this season. (again - funding minus competition moneys)

Are you telling us that the 4 Irish provinces are funded to the tune of £10m less than the 4 x Welsh teams? I must be reading it wrong.

I’m not telling you anything.  If the WRU has suddenly decided to increase the funding to 3 of its rugby regions to the levels you claim well it’s about time.   Good to hear.  

Good grief, you're serious aren't you. The WRU has been paying the regions around £20m pa before competition money for the last few seasons. That's £4m per season more than what you claim the 4 Irish provinces are funded per season.

Laugh Laugh  I don't think I've ever seen anything so daft written. Those world cup winning south african players at Munster really must be being paid in beer tokens and hugs.

Obviously, the provinces earn their own monies to pay towards player salaries. Specifically, the two Munster SA players were only brought in on the strength of a commercial arrangement made by the province. That was stated in media at time of announcement.

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Post by Pot Hale Fri 25 Sep 2020, 10:27 am

Here's some quotes from Annual Reports and figures to support what I'm saying about the contributions the IRFU states it makes to the costs of the four provinces:

"The monies (Competition Income 10.3m) earned here go some way towards reducing the €23.8m contribution that the Union made to the four Provincial teams and their Academies." - IRFU Annual Report 2013/14

"Professional game costs in Schedule 3 includes all of the operational, logistical and preparation costs for the matches of the National team. The most significant costs in this schedule are the Player and Management Costs which include the costs of the National management and player fees and bonuses together with the Union’s contribution to the cost of the four Provincial teams." IRFU Annual Report 2014/15

"Professional game costs increased by over €3m mainly due to the onward payment to the Provinces of the increased PRO14 revenues together with a once-off grant to the Provinces". IRFU Annual Report 2018/19.
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Post by Pot Hale Fri 25 Sep 2020, 10:39 am

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