Heineken Cup QF - Leinster v Saracens 19 Sep

First topic message reminder :

Last weekend, Leinster were playing in a PRO14 Championship final with a full First team 23 squad out playing. Meanwhile Saracens fielded their 2nds and 3rds in a meaningless game against Exeter and rested all their stars.

Both teams operate good academies and make use of their players during the season. Saracens will be without their inside centre/10 Owen Farrell and Leinster may be without TH Tadgh Furlong and opensider Dan Leavy who was a real thorn in the side for the Londoners the last time he played them in 2018.

Neither side underestimates the other in their ability to match stout defence with relentless attack. The differences between the two teams may come from the bench at the hour mark.

With a French referee officiating, both teams will have to learn to adapt quickly to his interpretation of the new breakdown laws.

Odds for this match have Leinster at 1/4 and Saracens at 3/1. But between these two teams, nothing is certain. In Head to Head it’s currently 3-1 in favour of the newly installed PRO14 Champions.

Should be a cracker with Saracens season the line before they head for the other Championship.

Chip away.

Irish teams might also get less from the IRFU and still have more due to 3 of the teams having substantially more from attendance (both cost and numbers) and sponsership.

The only big winner from IRFU is Connacht and that is for resources as much as money.  Aki wouldn't have signed and still been at Connacht were it not for the IRFU.

Plenty big money people like the other 3 provinces and might make a good stab at privatization but could go belly up to.  Best to stick with the IRFU.  Ulster are doing better because they stepped in when the branch wasn't doing such a good job.  Same with Munster and Axel (As they would have with Cullen and maybe did by bringing in Lancaster).

SRU have Malinder floating around and I am sure he helps out with advice to the Pro teams.

That’s probably it.  What’s interesting is that the £26m that the WRU allocate to their regions according to Rugby Fan above, is only for three of their regional teams. The fourth team - Gwent Dragons - also receives a similar amount of £8m.  And their test players received £5m in test performance bonuses.  Don’t know what their National team management costs are though.  But a lot of expenditure.

Pot Hale wrote:That’s probably it.  What’s interesting is that the £26m that the WRU allocate to their regions according to Rugby Fan above, is only for three of their regional teams. The fourth team - Gwent Dragons - also receives a similar amount of £8m.  And their test players received £5m in test performance bonuses.  Don’t know what their National team management costs are though.  But a lot of expenditure.

So add in the £12m competition money, and you are claiming that the WRU passes on £51m to the domestic pro game every year

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:That’s probably it.  What’s interesting is that the £26m that the WRU allocate to their regions according to Rugby Fan above, is only for three of their regional teams. The fourth team - Gwent Dragons - also receives a similar amount of £8m.  And their test players received £5m in test performance bonuses.  Don’t know what their National team management costs are though.  But a lot of expenditure.

So add in the £12m competition money, and you are claiming that the WRU passes on £51m to the regions every year

You're the one providing the figures, RugbyFan.  I'm surprised that the WRU is now paying £26m to three of the regions plus the competition monies.  Are you sure that's right?

The £5m in bonus payments to the test players is not money to the regions, so that doesn't count.   I suspect that you have your figures wrong somewhere.   I outlined in a previous post what the net contribution to the provinces is, once you separate out the comp income and the national team costs.   You might need to check the comparative figures for the Welsh regions.   Because £26m plus 8m monies to Dragons and competition monies of whatever amount on top of that does not sound right.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:  The IRFU contributed €31-32m approx which included all the competition income the provinces earned - I think 13.5m total last year from P14 and EPCR.

That's an astonishing claim if I'm reading it correctly.

That is £16m to the 4 Irish provinces. (funding minus competition moneys)

The corresponding figure for the 4 Welsh teams was expected to be £26m this season. (again - funding minus competition moneys)

Are you telling us that the 4 Irish provinces are funded to the tune of £10m less than the 4 x Welsh teams? I must be reading it wrong.

As I thought - you have your figures for Welsh regions over-stated.

Last year as per Annual Report, the three regions received 16.5m directly from the company.  They also received their portion of the Competition Income - 8.9m - giving a total of £25.4m.  Gwent Rugby received £7.6m.   So £33m in total including Competition Income of £11.9m.   That's €36.15m at today's rates.  IRFU funding to provinces incl Competition Income is about the same.

You have your figures wrong Pot Hale (yet again).

The £7.6m that goes to Dragons includes their competition money.

What the accounts tell us is the Union’s spending on Dragons operational costs is some £7.6m.

But, while covering costs, the WRU also receives the Gwent region’s revenue, including the £3m in TV/competition income.

My understanding is the Dragons’ cut of the PRB pot is around £3.4m, the lowest of the four.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/reasons-scarlets-receive-more-funding-17634562

RugbyFan100 wrote:You have your figures wrong Pot Hale (yet again).

The £7.6m that goes to Dragons includes their competition money.

What the accounts tell us is the Union’s spending on Dragons operational costs is some £7.6m.

But, while covering costs, the WRU also receives the Gwent region’s revenue, including the £3m in TV/competition income.

My understanding is the Dragons’ cut of the PRB pot is around £3.4m, the lowest of the four.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/reasons-scarlets-receive-more-funding-17634562

Eh I don't.  I took account of that.  

3 Regions - 16.5m
3 regions portion of CI - 8.9m
Gwent including CI  7.6m 

Total £33m including CI  - as stated in the WRU Annual Report 2019.

So my figures are right again.    You stated that the regions received 26m plus competition money.  They didn't.

What is interesting is that the WRU received £11.9m (€13.04m) in Comp Income from PRO14 and EPCR whilst IRFU received €13.378m in the same time period.

Pot Hale wrote:    You stated that the regions received 26m plus competition money.  They didn't.

Incorrect again.

What I said was:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

The corresponding figure for the 4 Welsh teams was expected to be £26m this season. (again - funding minus competition moneys)

Which is confirmed here:

The PRB pot is separate to the £12m of TV and competition money, which the regions generate themselves and which is passed on to them via the WRU.

It had been expected that the PRB pot would total some £26m for the coming season, but the impact of Covid has seen that slashed.

It’s understood it’s now down to around £3.6m.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-close-securing-20m-loan-18891670

Now, do you still think that the IRFU pumps just £16m into the 4 provinces annually? As per this claim:

Pot Hale wrote:  The IRFU contributed €31-32m approx which included all the competition income the provinces earned - I think 13.5m total last year from P14 and EPCR.

?

The point is that you’re trying to compare "corresponding set of figures" from what might have been allocated this year to the WRU regions but wasn’t, with what was actually contributed to the IRFU provinces in YE 2019.  That’s not a corresponding set of figures.     Stick with the same audited year 2019 if you want to make comparisons.  

The most recent real comparison would appear to be last reported financial year for 2019.  £33m in funding - on the face of it - is what the four Welsh regions received.  My previous comment about approx IRFU contributions to provinces was in response to the 40.5m figure that Phil mentioned and what it was made up of.  After you chipped in with your query, I also subsequently posted the breakdown of the IRFU figures in another post for the last 6 years with estimate breakdowns in each year.  You can make your comparisons with that.  But don't include costs that apply to the National Team.   I also included separately in that summary what the IRFU invested in academies - I don’t know what the cost of that is in Wales with its Centre of Excellence and the WRU National Academy.

You also need to consider that the four Branches have financial and operational responsibilities outside of the professional team relating to the domestic game of which some of the costs are borne by the province e.g. Ulster Rugby would have received additional grant income from IRFU for salaries related to the domestic game. 

In short, attempting to make absolute direct comparisons is difficult because of how each union organises itself and its national structure.  At a broad level,. given the £33m allocated to the regions and the €34m contributed to the provinces in 2019, they're not that far apart, particularly since the amount of Competition Income received seems to be largely the same €13.3m.  It's the amount of income that the clubs themselves generate through ticket sales, sponsorship and merchandising and other commercial ventures seems to make the difference.

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:  The IRFU contributed €31-32m approx which included all the competition income the provinces earned - I think 13.5m total last year from P14 and EPCR.

That's an astonishing claim if I'm reading it correctly.

That is £16m to the 4 Irish provinces. (funding minus competition moneys)

The corresponding figure for the 4 Welsh teams was expected to be £26m this season. (again - funding minus competition moneys)

Are you telling us that the 4 Irish provinces are funded to the tune of £10m less than the 4 x Welsh teams? I must be reading it wrong.

I’m not telling you anything.  If the WRU has suddenly decided to increase the funding to 3 of its rugby regions to the levels you claim well it’s about time.   Good to hear.  

Good grief, you're serious aren't you. The WRU has been paying the regions around £20m pa before competition money for the last few seasons. That's £4m per season more than what you claim the 4 Irish provinces are funded per season.

 I don't think I've ever seen anything so daft written. Those world cup winning south african players at Munster really must be being paid in beer tokens and hugs.

In this response, you say that the WRU has been paying the "regions" £20m pa before competition money for the last few seasons.  So I looked at the WRU accounts.

"The allocations to the four Regions have continued to increase to £21.0m (2016: £19.3m) (including the competition income referred to above)." WRU 2017

In YE 2019, it was 16.5m allocated to the three regions and £4.6m approx to Gwent.  Plus 11.9m in CI.
In YE 2018, WRU accounts say £20.5m was allocated to 3 regions and 6m to Gwent. Including the £11.7m in Competition Income for that year. 
In YE 2017, WRU accounts say £21m was allocated to the four regions including CI of 9.2m.
In YE 2016, WRU accounts say 19.3m was allocated to the four regions including CI of 9.7m.

So - the WRU were not paying the regions around £20m pa before competition money for the last few seasons.   More like around £10/11m until last year.

Pot Hale wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

You do misunderstand.  The phrase "central contract" in Irish Rugby is understood commonly by all.  You are choosing to put a different meaning on it. It refers to the contracting of the top elite players - 15 in all.  I've explained clearly above what it means, and it is used widely within media in Ireland and elsewhere.   I've also explained clearly what the 31-32m is - what it includes by way of provincial-generated income and what costs are on top of that to cover test team management and player costs.      

I don't misunderstand because "Irish rugby" doesn't have the rights to misuse a commonly used term.

The €31m isn't noted at all in the IRFU Annual Report.

You did misunderstand.   Deliberately it would appear.  As you have been aware of the distinction previously.  And then chose to insist on a different interpretation.  

Never mind - now you know.  The IRFU sometimes state how much of a contribution they make specifically to provinces; other times they don’t.   It’s always a subset of the Player and Management Costs.  They do also provide detail on what the monies are spent on. As I have pointed out with relevant quotes on previous occasions.  Your belief that over €40m is all spent solely on player salaries is inaccurate.

I've never claimed "solely on player salaries" so it's best to wind your neck in on that one

The €40.5m is clearly labelled "Player and Management costs".

Where are you getting the €31m figure from?

Pot Hale wrote:

RugbyFan100 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:That’s probably it.  What’s interesting is that the £26m that the WRU allocate to their regions according to Rugby Fan above, is only for three of their regional teams. The fourth team - Gwent Dragons - also receives a similar amount of £8m.  And their test players received £5m in test performance bonuses.  Don’t know what their National team management costs are though.  But a lot of expenditure.

So add in the £12m competition money, and you are claiming that the WRU passes on £51m to the regions every year

You're the one providing the figures, RugbyFan.  I'm surprised that the WRU is now paying £26m to three of the regions plus the competition monies.  Are you sure that's right?

The £5m in bonus payments to the test players is not money to the regions, so that doesn't count.   I suspect that you have your figures wrong somewhere.   I outlined in a previous post what the net contribution to the provinces is, once you separate out the comp income and the national team costs.   You might need to check the comparative figures for the Welsh regions.   Because £26m plus 8m monies to Dragons and competition monies of whatever amount on top of that does not sound right.

The competition money is included in the £26m figure

Pot Hale wrote:Here's some quotes from Annual Reports and figures to support what I'm saying about the contributions the IRFU states it makes to the costs of the four provinces:

"The monies (Competition Income 10.3m) earned here go some way towards reducing the €23.8m contribution that the Union made to the four Provincial teams and their Academies." - IRFU Annual Report 2013/14

"Professional game costs in Schedule 3 includes all of the operational, logistical and preparation costs for the matches of the National team. The most significant costs in this schedule are the Player and Management Costs which include the costs of the National management and player fees and bonuses together with the Union’s contribution to the cost of the four Provincial teams."  IRFU Annual Report 2014/15

"Professional game costs increased by over €3m mainly due to the onward payment to the Provinces of the increased PRO14 revenues together with a once-off grant to the Provinces". IRFU Annual Report 2018/19.

This is a lovely rhetoric but utterly meaningless.

The IRFU contract all Irish qualified players and their salaries form part of the €40.5m the IRFU notes in its accounts.

That's it. Nothing else matters.

Pot Hale wrote:The point is that you’re trying to compare "corresponding set of figures" from what might have been allocated this year to the WRU regions but wasn’t, with what was actually contributed to the IRFU provinces in YE 2019.  That’s not a corresponding set of figures.     Stick with the same audited year 2019 if you want to make comparisons.  

The most recent real comparison would appear to be last reported financial year for 2019.  £33m in funding - on the face of it - is what the four Welsh regions received.  My previous comment about approx IRFU contributions to provinces was in response to the 40.5m figure that Phil mentioned and what it was made up of.  After you chipped in with your query, I also subsequently posted the breakdown of the IRFU figures in another post for the last 6 years with estimate breakdowns in each year.  You can make your comparisons with that.  But don't include costs that apply to the National Team.   I also included separately in that summary what the IRFU invested in academies - I don’t know what the cost of that is in Wales with its Centre of Excellence and the WRU National Academy.

You also need to consider that the four Branches have financial and operational responsibilities outside of the professional team relating to the domestic game of which some of the costs are borne by the province e.g. Ulster Rugby would have received additional grant income from IRFU for salaries related to the domestic game. 

In short, attempting to make absolute direct comparisons is difficult because of how each union organises itself and its national structure.  At a broad level,. given the £33m allocated to the regions and the €34m contributed to the provinces in 2019, they're not that far apart, particularly since the amount of Competition Income received seems to be largely the same €13.3m.  It's the amount of income that the clubs themselves generate through ticket sales, sponsorship and merchandising and other commercial ventures seems to make the difference.

You should know about the WRU academy etc as that's included in the Performance Rugby costs.

You also know that the full academy costs are met by each of the professional clubs themselves. The IRFU spend another €3m+ on those.

You're making up that €34m, from what I can see.

I went through this on Twitter this week and I reckon the relative spends on the pro game are £43.5m from the WRU compared with €57.4m from the IRFU.

https://twitter.com/RugbyPhilBB/status/1310512025030754305?s=20

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:The point is that you’re trying to compare "corresponding set of figures" from what might have been allocated this year to the WRU regions but wasn’t, with what was actually contributed to the IRFU provinces in YE 2019.  That’s not a corresponding set of figures.     Stick with the same audited year 2019 if you want to make comparisons.  

The most recent real comparison would appear to be last reported financial year for 2019.  £33m in funding - on the face of it - is what the four Welsh regions received.  My previous comment about approx IRFU contributions to provinces was in response to the 40.5m figure that Phil mentioned and what it was made up of.  After you chipped in with your query, I also subsequently posted the breakdown of the IRFU figures in another post for the last 6 years with estimate breakdowns in each year.  You can make your comparisons with that.  But don't include costs that apply to the National Team.   I also included separately in that summary what the IRFU invested in academies - I don’t know what the cost of that is in Wales with its Centre of Excellence and the WRU National Academy.

You also need to consider that the four Branches have financial and operational responsibilities outside of the professional team relating to the domestic game of which some of the costs are borne by the province e.g. Ulster Rugby would have received additional grant income from IRFU for salaries related to the domestic game. 

In short, attempting to make absolute direct comparisons is difficult because of how each union organises itself and its national structure.  At a broad level,. given the £33m allocated to the regions and the €34m contributed to the provinces in 2019, they're not that far apart, particularly since the amount of Competition Income received seems to be largely the same €13.3m.  It's the amount of income that the clubs themselves generate through ticket sales, sponsorship and merchandising and other commercial ventures seems to make the difference.

You should know about the WRU academy etc as that's included in the Performance Rugby costs.

You also know that the full academy costs are met by each of the professional clubs themselves. The IRFU spend another €3m+ on those.

You're making up that €34m, from what I can see.

I went through this on Twitter this week and I reckon the relative spends on the pro game are £43.5m from the WRU compared with €57.4m from the IRFU.

https://twitter.com/RugbyPhilBB/status/1310512025030754305?s=20

Yes, I went through it earlier on this topic. And included the spend on IRFU academies.   But if you're now changing the discussion to what is spent by both unions on both the international and regional/provincial teams, well, I'll leave that to you.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Here's some quotes from Annual Reports and figures to support what I'm saying about the contributions the IRFU states it makes to the costs of the four provinces:

"The monies (Competition Income 10.3m) earned here go some way towards reducing the €23.8m contribution that the Union made to the four Provincial teams and their Academies." - IRFU Annual Report 2013/14

"Professional game costs in Schedule 3 includes all of the operational, logistical and preparation costs for the matches of the National team. The most significant costs in this schedule are the Player and Management Costs which include the costs of the National management and player fees and bonuses together with the Union’s contribution to the cost of the four Provincial teams."  IRFU Annual Report 2014/15

"Professional game costs increased by over €3m mainly due to the onward payment to the Provinces of the increased PRO14 revenues together with a once-off grant to the Provinces". IRFU Annual Report 2018/19.

This is a lovely rhetoric but utterly meaningless.

The IRFU contract all Irish qualified players and their salaries form part of the €40.5m the IRFU notes in its accounts.

That's it. Nothing else matters.

It’s not utterly meaningless.  I looked at your Twitter spat and others that you've had.  You persist in claiming inaccurately that the IRFU spends north of 40.5m on players and coaches in the context of PRO14 discussions when you know full well that it includes national team management and player bonus costs.   On another occasion, you claimed that the IRFU bought the PRO14 through spending €45m on players and coaches - again deliberately ignoring the fact that some of these costs were related to the national team.   You also said that 40.5m is "what the IRFU states it SPENDS on wages and “competition income earned” is completely irrelevant".

It does not cover 100% of the players’s salaries is the next point you need to recognise.  And the IRFU passes on Competition Income on to the provinces as evidenced by the quotation above.

Consider what is included in the 40.5m total - as stated in various IRFU Annual Reports, and put a cost against each:
National management and player fees and bonuses
Insurance costs
15 x Central contracts
Grant income for additional/specialist management/coaching personnel
Contributions towards provincial player salary contracts.
Onward payment to the Provinces of the increased PRO14 revenues i.e. Competition Income.