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Scotland v France - Autumn Nations Cup 2020

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Post by NeilyBroon on Tue 17 Nov 2020, 10:33 am

First topic message reminder :

Scotland face France at Murrayfield in the second round of pool B's fixtures.

Previous results:
Sco 28-17 Fra - Murrayfield, 6Ns 2020
Sco 17-14 Fra - Murrayfield, WC warm up 2019
Fra 27-10 Sco - Stade Francais, 6Ns 2019
Sco 32-26 Fra - Murrayfield, 6Ns 2018
Fra 22-16 Sco - Stade Francais, 6Ns 2017

Pretty even Stevens excluding the WC warm-up, with both sides boasting a 100% home record in the last 5 fixtures. France will be looking to turn the tables after Scotland ended their 6Ns run and in turn end Scotland's record-equalling winning run. Scotland will be looking to improve on a mixed bag against Italy and maintain their home record against France.
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Post by Heuer27 on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 4:50 pm

That was the French guy who collapsed that scrum. How could Barnes not see that

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Post by BigGee on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 4:51 pm

Here comes Super Dunc

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Post by tigertattie on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 4:51 pm

Tell you what. As a former front rower that penalty was just a total toss up
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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 4:51 pm

France taking control of the game, Scotland seem all at sea, not making much ground when they have the ball.

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Post by tigertattie on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 4:53 pm

The speed of duhan

He was travelling even faster than kebble
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Post by Mcsweens on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 4:54 pm

Barnsey is getting a bit too prominent now.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 4:54 pm

Scotland losing all discipline here.

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Post by BigGee on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 4:55 pm

Kick this and it is the game

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Post by tigertattie on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 4:55 pm

We’re just being completely out muscled today
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 4:55 pm

Mcsweens wrote:Barnsey is getting a bit too prominent now.

Cant blame him for the laws though. Scotland pushing their luck probably due to the pressure of the clock.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 4:56 pm

French forward power wins the day.

Presuming France end up playing England in the final week, it will be a fearsome battle.

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Post by king_carlos on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 4:56 pm

BigGee wrote:That was some hit on Aldritt by Turner
Turner is something of an unfulfilled talent for me. He is so physical and can absolutely dominate contact but has just never done it consistently enough to displace Brown or McInally. Untimely injuries haven't helped him to be fair.

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Post by tigertattie on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 4:56 pm

Can we grab a draw from the jaws of defeat?
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 4:56 pm

Are you allowed to block the ball like Fickou was doing there?

I didnt think you were..and he was rightfully hit.

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Post by lostinwales on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 4:56 pm

Scotland look a good team and seemed to play very well in the first half but don't seem to have a route to scoring the points needed to take anything from the game

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 4:56 pm

Surely that was a penalty to France, should hog have got a yellow card for tackling with out the ball.

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Post by BigGee on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 4:57 pm

We can't say we have not had our chances in this game, just not taking them

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Post by BigGee on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 4:58 pm

That probably sums up our second half

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 4:59 pm

Too many mistakes at crucial times; lineouts going astray, dropped balls or obstructions. They’ve really robbed us of chances to put points on the board in this second half unfortunately

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Post by tigertattie on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:00 pm

Running in front of your own man and getting penalty. Sums up the lack of brain power today

We played like the Scotland of old. Huff puff but lack of clinical edge, professionalism and rugby nous to play the game to the refs interpretation and in the right parts of the park
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:00 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Are you allowed to block the ball like Fickou was doing there?

I didnt think you were..and he was rightfully hit.

As long as you are deemed to not intentional block (changing your line really) yes it's all legal. Should have been a penalty to France for a push by the scottish.


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Post by Mcsweens on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:01 pm

FFS Hogg. So dull

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Post by tigertattie on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:01 pm

Wow. There you go. That shows you how headless we’ve been.

Terrible decisions from the top 2 inches from most players
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Post by NeilyBroon on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:01 pm

I think we needed this loss to highlight the fact our cutting edge just isn't there when we need it. The difference having two distributing players coming on has made is palpable. Toonie needs to re-examine his selection policy. Yes defence wins games but not if we can't score enough points. The fine margins were lost today. France deserved the win. Scotland played admirably but only in defence and never really looked as though they'd take it, even with France's mistakes.
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Post by TightHEAD on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:01 pm

Laugh

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Post by BigGee on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:02 pm

Well that certainly sums up our second half, can't beat France with that many errors.

Well done France a good team and getting better

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:02 pm

Not ideal from Hoggy. Some good stuff in there but a serious lack of cutting edge. France considerably more powerful when it counted really

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Post by majesticimperialman on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:02 pm

Scotland cannot complain about losing this game, France took there chances Scitkand have not.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:02 pm

Bad mistakes from both teams in the final ten. Tame end.

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Post by bsando on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:02 pm

Awful second half. That's a real dip from a steady and controlled performance in the first. Hogg?! What was he thinking??

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Post by TightHEAD on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:02 pm

Why do that. Sladey will be texting him his kick Vs Sarries a couple of years ago.
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:05 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Are you allowed to block the ball like Fickou was doing there?

I didnt think you were..and he was rightfully hit.

As long as you are deemed to not intentional block (changing your line really) yes it's all legal. Should have been a penalty to France for a push  by the scottish.
But clearly in this case...he WAS intentionally blocking the player. Or in my opinion he was...

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Post by BigGee on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:06 pm

That is probably our level at the moment, not quite at the top of the pile yet, but close.

France v England is the deserved final and we should be there or thereabout against Ireland.

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Post by tigertattie on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:07 pm

We were out muscled today but we decided to keep kicking the ball to them all night long.

If you are being ground down like that you need to out think the opposition. We didn’t. We kept kicking kicking and kicking and France just mullered us in the close quarters in our own half.

It wasn’t a stinking performance. Only conceded one try but we were completely blunt in attack.

Sam Johnson was a one season wonder a couple of years back. He’s slow, his distribution is non existent (at this level) and Harris may be the hardest working man in world rugby but......

Price had a poor game.

Kinghorn was woeful.

Need a big game with a good performance and win over whoever we get from the other pool.
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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:09 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Are you allowed to block the ball like Fickou was doing there?

I didnt think you were..and he was rightfully hit.

As long as you are deemed to not intentional block (changing your line really) yes it's all legal. Should have been a penalty to France for a push  by the scottish.
But clearly in this case...he WAS intentionally blocking the player. Or in my opinion he was...

He didnt look to see where the player was or change his line so generally seen as waiting for the bounce for the ball. There is a law saying you cant push someone in those circumstances without the ball however. Wrong call from barnes imo. You'll see people shepherding the ball every game as long as they dont step out of their running line they're fine.

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Post by BigGee on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:10 pm

tigertattie wrote:We were out muscled today but we decided to keep kicking the ball to them all night long.

If you are being ground down like that you need to out think the opposition. We didn’t. We kept kicking kicking and kicking and France just mullered us in the close quarters in our own half.

It wasn’t a stinking performance. Only conceded one try but we were completely blunt in attack.

Sam Johnson was a one season wonder a couple of years back. He’s slow, his distribution is non existent (at this level) and Harris may be the hardest working man in world rugby but......

Price had a poor game.

Kinghorn was woeful.

Need a big game with a good performance and win over whoever we get from the other pool.

Hard to disagree with that assessment, I am a big fan of Johnson but has not been on song since his injury.

maybe Toonie might feel able to roll the dice a bit in two weeks time now

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Post by NeilyBroon on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:12 pm

tigertattie wrote:We were out muscled today but we decided to keep kicking the ball to them all night long.

If you are being ground down like that you need to out think the opposition. We didn’t. We kept kicking kicking and kicking and France just mullered us in the close quarters in our own half.

It wasn’t a stinking performance. Only conceded one try but we were completely blunt in attack.

Sam Johnson was a one season wonder a couple of years back. He’s slow, his distribution is non existent (at this level) and Harris may be the hardest working man in world rugby but......

Price had a poor game.

Kinghorn was woeful.

Need a big game with a good performance and win over whoever we get from the other pool.

Agree with your points. SJ looks like he needs some time at club to get back up to form, wasn't bad but wasn't right for the game. DT looked far better in the 5 minutes he was on that said a lot.

As I said earlier Kinghorn has looked bad all autumn, so what he has done to earn a start I don't know. Again, another one who needs to go back to club to work on aspects of their game.

Price has looked pretty meh for a while, he's playing like wee greig without the same level of control and leadership. I fancy SHC to start with Horne on the bench.

Overall I'd give that performance a 5. As always positives in defence but really need a better attack plan and selection. Jones needs to be back in the squad too. I'd swap him and Lang on for the second half so the roles are reversed, and DT and Harris for the first.


Last edited by NeilyBroon on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by tigertattie on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:13 pm

Hoggy has been on the media training eh

“We were the better team for 75 mins”

Ehhhh no we weren’t hoggy. We were devoid of attacking threat
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Post by NeilyBroon on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:14 pm

tigertattie wrote:Hoggy has been on the media training eh

“We were the better team for 75 mins”

Ehhhh no we weren’t hoggy. We were devoid of attacking threat
picard
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Post by GeordieFalcon on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:21 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Are you allowed to block the ball like Fickou was doing there?

I didnt think you were..and he was rightfully hit.

As long as you are deemed to not intentional block (changing your line really) yes it's all legal. Should have been a penalty to France for a push  by the scottish.
But clearly in this case...he WAS intentionally blocking the player. Or in my opinion he was...

He didnt look to see where the player was or change his line so generally seen as waiting for the bounce for the ball. There is a law saying you cant push someone in those circumstances without the ball however. Wrong call from barnes imo. You'll see people shepherding the ball every game as long as they dont step out of their running line they're fine.
See i would say it was intentional because he is deliberately putitng himself in between the ball and the player.. and thats obstruction in my eyes.

I think that law needs looking into.

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Post by bsando on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:22 pm

BigGee wrote:
tigertattie wrote:We were out muscled today but we decided to keep kicking the ball to them all night long.

If you are being ground down like that you need to out think the opposition. We didn’t. We kept kicking kicking and kicking and France just mullered us in the close quarters in our own half.

It wasn’t a stinking performance. Only conceded one try but we were completely blunt in attack.

Sam Johnson was a one season wonder a couple of years back. He’s slow, his distribution is non existent (at this level) and Harris may be the hardest working man in world rugby but......

Price had a poor game.

Kinghorn was woeful.

Need a big game with a good performance and win over whoever we get from the other pool.

Hard to disagree with that assessment, I am a big fan of Johnson but has not been on song since his injury.

maybe Toonie might feel able to roll the dice a bit in two weeks time now

Bit harsh on Price, he didn't make any mistakes really and boxed kick very well.

I think Scotland needed to attack in that second half and add something different to the equation. It's disappointing Hogg didn't try to run the ball once that whole match. He needs to keep trying to do that now and again to keep the defence guessing. He also never looked to pass to DVDM when he was on his shoulder which was frustrating.

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 5:24 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Are you allowed to block the ball like Fickou was doing there?

I didnt think you were..and he was rightfully hit.

As long as you are deemed to not intentional block (changing your line really) yes it's all legal. Should have been a penalty to France for a push  by the scottish.
But clearly in this case...he WAS intentionally blocking the player. Or in my opinion he was...

He didnt look to see where the player was or change his line so generally seen as waiting for the bounce for the ball. There is a law saying you cant push someone in those circumstances without the ball however. Wrong call from barnes imo. You'll see people shepherding the ball every game as long as they dont step out of their running line they're fine.
See i would say it was intentional because he is deliberately putitng himself in between the ball and the player.. and thats obstruction in my eyes.

I think that law needs looking into.

It's basically the same law as for kicks which is far more common. Apply the same logic. When you see players running back quite lazily if they dont change their line and they're not seen to be looking they'll get away with it even if you could say its cynical.

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Post by Anglobraveheart on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 6:00 pm

That was a great game to highlight the improvements in our defence.
But also the bluntness of our attack. Which was BLUNT.
If Weir is at 10 we can't have Johnson and Haryis in the centre.
Please, Taylor and Jones now?
It must be 2 flair players out of 3 in the 10, 12, 13 channel.
When Finn or Adam return, we can introduce a defencive centre, but not now with Wee Dunc in there.
Kinghorn needs to be dropped. He was poor today. Looked disinterested and had poor body language.
SHC should have come on for last 15 - what did we have to lose?

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Post by Heuer27 on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 6:07 pm

Thought the kicking game was poor from Price to be honest. He was either kicking too far or the chase was poor. That all comes from communication or lack thereof by the kicker.

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Post by Anglobraveheart on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 7:00 pm

The kicking all round was poor. SJ typified it. Do we have a backs coach?
We were kicking like Wales in the previous decade. We need to move forwards, not backwards..

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Post by Mcsweens on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 7:23 pm

Anglobraveheart wrote:That was a great game to highlight the improvements in our defence.
But also the bluntness of our attack. Which was BLUNT.
If Weir is at 10 we can't have Johnson and Haryis in the centre.
Please, Taylor and Jones now?
It must be 2 flair players out of 3 in the 10, 12, 13 channel.
When Finn or Adam return, we can introduce a defencive centre, but not now with Wee Dunc in there.
Kinghorn needs to be dropped. He was poor today. Looked disinterested and had poor body language.
SHC should have come on for last 15 - what did we have to lose?

Don't disagree with this but we just didn't have the platform today.
I saw Jones in his tracksuit in the stadium, so he's clearly there or thereabouts. No harm taking another look at Hutchinson either.
It wasn't the centre pairing that lost us that. Johnson and Harris are able to catch and pass, and we have a couple of excellent wingers (exc Blairhorn).
Id be surprised if Duhan got more than 6 or 7 touches - seems to me that's down to gameplan, poor kicking, and forwards being outmuscled.

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Post by George Carlin on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 7:35 pm

I don't like these games where we're reminded that a missing Finn Russell is the difference between being a top 10 side and a top 6 side.
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Post by Anglobraveheart on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 7:53 pm

Hi McSween.
Hutchison is injured as far as I am aware?
We have:
12 - Johnson, Stafford, Lang, Taylor.
13 - Harris, Jones, Grigg, Taylor?
So, Hutchison (injured) Dunbar (excluded by DR, left to the wilderness unfortunately and injured I think?) Horne (his time has gone) Scott, Bennett (wrongly excluded)
Which, tbh is a pretty rich centre pool?
And so much better than NDL, Morrison, Webster?? FGS.
So, imho, how well could we have done today to supplement the hard work grunt up front, with a Taylor/Jones pairing?
C'mon Toonie, do the right thing?

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Post by bsando on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 7:57 pm

George Carlin wrote:I don't like these games where we're reminded that a missing Finn Russell is the difference between being a top 10 side and a top 6 side.

Yeah and Bhatti having to do a job at Loosehead as well. Those little margins hurt unfortunately.

I think around the 60th minute mark I was thinking alright now is the time to pounce, make your move Scotland! The platform is there, that is for sure but once again a lack of execution. Had Scotland scored say two try's from the opportunities they had in France's half that would show some excellent progress. Yet we had knock on's, turnovers and penalties instead.

On the flip side it could easily have been two trys to France and zero for Scotland if they had conceded before halftime.  So despite the loss it was encouraging to see Scotland keep France out on multiple occasions and defend so well.

Attack wise though, they need to be more adventurous in the opposition 22. Hogg is an excellent attacker but in that match he barely had a go from long ball in hand. VDM had 8 carries with an average of 14m per carry to be Scotland's best carrier in the backs. Yet we barely saw him unleashed again. Fickou and Vakatawa made 100m in 12 carries vs Johnson and Harris's 62m with 10 carries. https://www.autumnnationscup.com/report/vakatawa-magic-edges-france-to-win-in-scotland#match-stats

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Post by NeilyBroon on Sun 22 Nov 2020, 8:19 pm

George Carlin wrote:I don't like these games where we're reminded that a missing Finn Russell is the difference between being a top 10 side and a top 6 side.

Very true although I think the point stands that the centre selection should better match the player at 10. We weren't bad by any stretch, it wasn't exactly easy for France but we've lost a lot of potency in attack, which can be attributed to an imbalance of distributing players versus crash ballers/glory seekers.
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