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Next steps for england.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 09 Dec 2020, 7:33 am

First topic message reminder :

Theres a couple of articles on the BBC which to me indicate exactly where england need to step up in the 6 nations. One by Matt Dawson :

'To win a World Cup, you have to be able to adapt under the biggest pressure and on the biggest occasion.

That is what the All Blacks or South Africa would do. That is what England did in 2003.

It is not always going to go your way. Even if you are overwhelming favourites, you will play some games that you know you should win that you will end up losing.

That is why I am even more pleased with England's Autumn Nations Cup sudden-death win in extra time against an inexperienced France side.

England were matched physically up front and if you look at the previous occasions when that has happened they have usually lost the game. This time they dug themselves out of it.

Eddie Jones' side are naturally going to be favourites in most matches for the next two or three years but they are going to play against teams that are not as good on them on paper but can match them if they play out of their skins.

That is what France did. They were missing so many stars who were unable to play because of an agreement with the Top 14 league but there were plenty of good French players with the potential to light it up.

No matter the circumstances, you have got to know how to win games and this was a classic example from England.

England have a chance at the Grand Slam when the Six Nations starts in two months, but they will only win it if they take their opportunities.

They have a good cycle of fixtures, with just two away matches, against Ireland and Wales.

France's performance in Sunday's final showed that the Six Nations is going to come down to them and England.

Les Bleus are the only team in the northern hemisphere that can physically compete with England over 80 minutes.

France's second team were playing at Twickenham, but a full-strength side will travel to south-west London in March for the penultimate round of the Six Nations.

To win that match, England will have to be more accurate than they were on Sunday.

They are only going to get three opportunities against a side like France. They have to score at least two of those chances if they want to win the game.

England scored one try against France, when Luke Cowan-Dickie went over in a maul
In the final, France did not get many chances. You might even argue they had one chance, and they scored one try through Brice Dulin.

That is the standard required. England, on the other hand, should have scored at the end of the first half when they were camped on France's line.

There were two chances when Elliot Daly passed to Anthony Watson on the right wing. The first, Daly passed a bit too early, and the second went to Watson's feet. They should have scored at least one of those.

'England need to recognise prime time to attack'
I want to know what England are doing in training in terms of attack. Time after time there are opportunities that England are not going for.

I do not look at the England side and see a huge threat in the backline even though individually you look at the players and think how good they are. It is all so lateral.

Against France, they went through all their usual kick and chase protocols and there were overlaps they did not want to attack.

On a couple of occasions it could be argued that it paid off because they got three points from the ensuing penalty but other times those decisions could have got them in trouble.

You get into the habit of not being able to complete those processes. If you are in the groove and used to doing it you get ruthless and you finish people off. The attack just does not seem joined up to me.

Rather than keep kicking the ball away, they need to recognise when it is prime time to attack, and England have the skills to be able to do it.

'We've not seen what Farrell has to offer this autumn'
England captain Owen Farrell has so much to offer but we have not seen it this autumn and I do not know why.

He missed four kicks against France, including one that could have ended the game early in sudden death.

All kickers, even at the standard of Owen Farrell, have off days. Most kickers would have either passed the baton on to George Ford or would not have got the ones under pressure.

The fact that he still had the mental capability to kick the penalty that won the game under the most pressure shows the animal that he is.

My concerns around Owen are just that we talk about him being a points machine but he has so much more.

For England he has been a ferocious tackler, distributor, creative player but maybe his role has slightly changed now.' And money and care:

Monye: "If this team are to win the World Cup they have to evolve their game in attack. Do you have the game to chase the game?

"England aren't going to be on top in every game they play from now to 2023. If they are to be the number one team in the world, they need to show more in their attack.

"If their attack could match their defence, this team won't be beaten. At the moment they leave the doors open for teams to get at them. It's not about being the best in the northern hemisphere, it is about beating New Zealand, beating South Africa."

Care: "When you are winning games every week and building momentum, it's because of the nuts and bolts of their game - their set-piece, brutal defence and kicking game - you probably take things like finishing four on threes for granted a little bit.

"They probably train a similar way, exactly how they play - kick chasing, waiting for errors, and they probably haven't spent an awful lot of time developing their attacking game. They are suffering almost from their own success, beating teams without having to do an awful lot."

I mean its blatantly obvious given how good our defence and set piece is (even under pressure by Woki and France) that the attack stick out like a sore thumb. We kicked alot, but kicked poorly. Normally over long and not contesting for the ball a great deal of the time (in the air). 2 things from the articles were that chances were created that should have been finished (France) and how different would we see it had Daly not butchered them. Personally I think we were a little too conservative and slow which led to alot of inaccuracies. We just didnt seem to hit the switch as we've done so well under Jones previously. It was only in the last game where Robson seemed to up the tempo and we started to look a bit more lively.

To me there is a serious question for all the back line bar Jonny May on left wing (watson to me is a question of right wing or full back). That question is there as I'd like a better balance in midfield and a new 9 and 15 but also because I dont see the point in having 2 perceived ball players in midfield playing the current tactics. May as well find our new noon and tindall.

The balance to that is that we've won the lot this year so my complaints are merely about consolidating our place in the pecking order through improvement not standing still. I think the 6 nations is a great chance to pick up a grand slam with the way the fixtures fall this year.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 16 Jan 2021, 1:54 am

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55679159

Mark McCall chatting about the Sarries players fitness.

Billy is starting against Ealing this weekend but none of the other England players are involved. Sarries are playing Doncaster next weekend but McCall says none of the internationals are likely to feature. I'd guess that's largely a question of player welfare given the gulf between Lions starters and a Donny.

So it sounds like Billy will be the only one of them to have had any game time between the ANC and Six Nations opener.

To be honest I'd be surprised if it changed Jones selection too much. Itoje, Farrell, Daly and Billy will almost certainly start if available. Perhaps George or Mako could be on the bench given that Marler and Cowan-Dickie are quality alternatives who have played.

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Post by lostinwales Sat 16 Jan 2021, 12:50 pm

I think the criticism of Sinckler is fair and he was somewhat underwhelming through much of the micky mouse cup, but I did think his form was starting to pick up by the end.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 16 Jan 2021, 2:39 pm

So, it's been announced that Jones will select a 28-man squad for the whole Championship as part of deal between the RFU and Premiership clubs to limit covid transmission.

There will be some leeway for injury replacements but Jones will be expected to limit movement in and out of camp. So effectively a 'bubble' similar to how cricket has been operating.

Some suggestions that it will make selecting Sinckler more difficult but I think Jones will name him in the squad anyway. That likely means that a loosehead will miss out though so Genge may be unlucky. In the RWC squad that had 5 props Jones picked 3 looseheads and two tightheads. Probably the other way round here due to Sinckler's ban.

1.Vunipola, Marler
2.George, Cowan-Dickie
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Williams
4.Itoje, Launchbury
5.Lawes, Hill
6.Curry, Willis
7.Underhill, Earl
8.Vunipola

9.Youngs, Robson
10.Farrell, Ford

11.May
12.Slade, Lawrence
13.Joseph, Marchant
14.Watson
15.Daly, Malins

That'd be my prediction for a 28-man squad. It's pretty close to what I'd like to see as well to be honest. I'd take Randall or Mitchell over Robson but other than that I'd be very happy to see that squad named.

If the fit again and on form Wilson gets picked ahead of Willis then Andy Goode's twitter might combust.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sat 16 Jan 2021, 3:04 pm

That does limit the chance of new caps then and he doesnt normally drop people straight in.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 16 Jan 2021, 5:12 pm

Just finished watching the match between Ealing Trailfinders and Saracens. This was mostly a Sarries second side, but Billy Vunipola played the full match at 8. I know their season is just getting started, but Billy looked slow and oddly clumsy. Yes, I know practice has been limited, but thinking of the Argentina side which beat the All Blacks, they had no game time for over a year and most conditioning was at home. Yet they played off the charts and conditioning was not remotely a problem. For me, reinforces the notion that Billy needs this season for R&R and would likely come back stronger in the autumn next season.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 16 Jan 2021, 5:44 pm

doctor_grey wrote:Just finished watching the match between Ealing Trailfinders and Saracens.  This was mostly a Sarries second side, but Billy Vunipola played the full match at 8.  I know their season is just getting started, but Billy looked slow and oddly clumsy.  Yes, I know practice has been limited, but thinking of the Argentina side which beat the All Blacks, they had no game time for over a year and most conditioning was at home.  Yet they played off the charts and conditioning was not remotely a problem.  For me, reinforces the notion that Billy needs this season for R&R and would likely come back stronger in the autumn next season.        
Billy has always looked better after a run of games under his belt. One of those players who doesn't really find match sharpness until he's strings some minutes together. He's my biggest worry in terms of lack of playing time.

I wouldn't be adverse to seeing him rested but can't realistically see it happening. Whenever he's been available Jones has selected him.

Were the Lions tour confirmed as being postponed then I think a few players would be rested more across the home nations in the Six Nations. Some will say resting players for the Six Nations is silly but it's going to be played without fans and France are yet to commit beyond their first fixture against Italy so it's going to be another somewhat anticlimactic tournament.

If there is a chance of the Lions playing this summer though I think all the players will be adverse to getting rested and missing out. Particularly for Billy as he was injured last time around.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 16 Jan 2021, 7:49 pm

Well, Billy certainly looked a long way from game shape. I guess if there is a Six Nations, he better play a lot.

Do you think the Six Nations will actually be played and finished on time? It's really hard to know what will happen with Covid.

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Post by king_carlos Sat 16 Jan 2021, 8:08 pm

The home nations unions seem determined/desperate to get it complete on time presumably for the TV revenue. The FFR seem more hesitant due to the new strains and the UK Gov handling the pandemic about as competently as Ugo Monye playing fullback. I think the Six Nations will happen but in a more similar fashion to recent cricket tours with the squads in a 'bubble' for the duration as far as possible.

At the minute the Lions tour possibly going ahead this summer seems the elephant in the room. If that's going to go ahead, even in the UK, then they need to get the domestic leagues, Europe and Six Nations finished before it. Which is going to be a squeeze if things keep getting postponed. Playing midweek games to get last seasons Premiership finished wasn't a great success with clubs rotating and big mismatches left, right and centre.

To me hosting a Lions tour in the UK is pointless so I'd much rather it just got postponed. From what I understand with the Lions it's less TV money reliant and more tourism reliant for making money so I don't really understand what hosting it in the UK achieves. There still wont be crowds and South Africa haven't played rugby since the RWC final so they would be under cooked. The amount that local economies in SA would lose through not having the tour would be enormous as well.

Warm up games would presumably be played against home nations clubs which just doesn't enthuse me. Something I love from a Lions tour is lots of home nations fans being attracted to domestic rugby in the nation that's being toured through the warm ups.

Then the simple fact that the stop start season will mean there's not much chance to actually pick a squad on form. Game time across the leagues is all over the place with postponements and cancellations. The quality of some games that have been played is pretty low as well due to rustiness. All that stuff hardly adds up to a great spectacle of rugby with the best of Britain and Ireland in that moment going toe to toe with the world champions.

If the Lions tour got postponed then there wouldn't be this same pressure and rush to get the season finished under the normal schedule, which just doesn't seem realistic.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat 16 Jan 2021, 10:38 pm

Great points about the Lions.  I still look forward to Lions tours as much or more than the RWC.  It really seems to make more sense to postpone to next summer and take the pressure off everyone.  

With no fans this season it would be tv only exercise.  And if Rugby is desperate for tv revenue, let SA come north and play the Barbarians in a few matches. We could finally put together a pretty terrific side finally using northern hemisphere players, and even include French players. With no summer Internationals I am sure we could field a pretty decent side.  But that won't ever happen, though nice to think about.

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Post by king_carlos Mon 18 Jan 2021, 9:45 pm

Jason Ryles won't be joining the coaching staff for the Six Nations due to his family not wanting to relocate yet due to covid. Which is completely understandable. The RFU say they hope he will join the staff for the summer fixtures though.

The squad is due to be announced on Friday with the squad then in training camp from next week. Given it's a 28-man bubble that presumably means a few players will see limited game time until March unless Jones rotates more than usual, which would be a good thing longer term in my opinion if we get to see a few more players start.

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 19 Jan 2021, 1:07 pm

I think this is the one year when Eddie can tinker and try different players. France probably learned a lot by playing different players in that last match with England. We already know what so many players can do at the highest level, so for this Six Nations try something different. I bet everyone will be surprised how well many of the younger or players on the cusp will do.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Tue 19 Jan 2021, 1:52 pm

It's a 28 man game bubble isn't it, trying to stop any late illness or injury meaning players having to come into camp late on. I think he can still name a 32 man training squad. Then just streamline for the games.

Presumably something like;

1. Vunipola, Genge, Marler
2. George, LCD, Dunn
3. Sinckler, Stuart, Williams
4/5. Itoje, Launchbury, Hill, Lawes
Flank. Curry, Underhill, Earl, Willis
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs, Robson
10. Ford, Farrell
Centre. Slade, Joseph, Lawrence
Back three. Watson, May, Daly, Nowell

That's 29 so there's room for a couple of youthful wildcards. Barbeary, Randall and Steward maybe.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 19 Jan 2021, 2:36 pm

As far as I understand it's a 28-man squad named for the whole tournament with some scope to bring in injury replacements if required. Sounds like they will be in a bubble effectively for the tournament though so not returning to club games if they miss out the matchday 23.

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 19 Jan 2021, 3:54 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:It's a 28 man game bubble isn't it, trying to stop any late illness or injury meaning players having to come into camp late on. I think he can still name a 32 man training squad. Then just streamline for the games.

Presumably something like;

1. Vunipola, Genge, Marler
2. George, LCD, Dunn
3. Sinckler, Stuart, Williams
4/5. Itoje, Launchbury, Hill, Lawes
Flank. Curry, Underhill, Earl, Willis
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs, Robson
10. Ford, Farrell
Centre. Slade, Joseph, Lawrence
Back three. Watson, May, Daly, Nowell

That's 29 so there's room for a couple of youthful wildcards. Barbeary, Randall and Steward maybe.
I think you have pretty much nailed who Eddie Jones will pick.  I would like to see something much more radical than that (are you listening Eddie Jones?).  Leave out both Vunipolas, George, Sinckler, Launchbury, Lawes, Youngs, Ford and Farrell.  Let Itoje lead the lot.  If we lose, who cares?  This is Covid world.  But we will at least know how our depth is progressing.  

Additionally, I know I have probably been sniffing the Nitrous Oxide too much, but I would actually like to see a real 10 passing to a real 12 passing to a real 13 passing to a 15 who can actually catch, attack, and defend.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 19 Jan 2021, 4:12 pm

Barbeary is likely to be out with an ankle injury regardless. I think he's a hell of a prospect but that we need to work out where his best position will be.

If he has the right skills to be a hooker then he has to be regularly starting before being considered.
If he's going into the back row there is a hell of a lot of competition, and if we want another fat boy who can run surprisingly fast then Dombrandt has the benefit of more experience.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Tue 19 Jan 2021, 4:25 pm

lostinwales wrote:Barbeary is likely to be out with an ankle injury regardless. I think he's a hell of a prospect but that we need to work out where his best position will be.

If he has the right skills to be a hooker then he has to be regularly starting before being considered.
If he's going into the back row there is a hell of a lot of competition, and if we want another fat boy who can run surprisingly fast then Dombrandt has the benefit of more experience.

Or even, a not so fat boy, who can run even faster as in Simmons.
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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Tue 19 Jan 2021, 7:43 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/55722642

If the Bath players are all self isolating for 10 days then they won’t be joining up with the squad at the beginning next week at St Georges Park for 6Ns prep

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Wed 20 Jan 2021, 9:19 am

Report from the Mail today predicting Paolo Odogwu will get the call Friday & beat Italy to it.
Great news if true & a spectacular rise from nowhere.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Jan 2021, 9:36 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Report from the Mail today predicting Paolo Odogwu will get the call Friday & beat Italy to it.
Great news if true & a spectacular rise from nowhere.

Its a really intriguing squad announcement to me. After the relative lack of fast incorporation of newer caps in the autumn this seems a riskier time to so.

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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Wed 20 Jan 2021, 9:43 am

Yes definitely with the smaller squad. I wonder if Bath’s backs may be affected by the outbreak & forced Eddy’s hand?
Pure speculation all round though

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 20 Jan 2021, 9:53 am

Its a nothing year....I would be looking to fix the key areas...

Number 8 when Billy isnt there...
Scrum half
12
Possibly FB...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Jan 2021, 9:59 am

I'm all for constant rejuvenation. Integrate but it's important to always win the next game. No game is a right off and it's not a nothing year to me. Of course there's always risks bringing people in and sometimes it's a disaster and you need a replacement straight away (tomkins in the ai s a few years ago). Restricted squad risks a run of defeats if it goes pear shaped but it also places a risk on developing players as sometimes you can drop someone out to regain confidence etc.

That said I agree 9 and 15 need to be looked at as matter of urgency.

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Post by Gooseberry Wed 20 Jan 2021, 10:01 am

king_carlos wrote:As far as I understand it's a 28-man squad named for the whole tournament with some scope to bring in injury replacements if required. Sounds like they will be in a bubble effectively for the tournament though so not returning to club games if they miss out the matchday 23.

That does take out the chance to have apprentice players along for the ride. If the players like Odogwu do get included it has to be with a serious consideration for playing that doesn't seem to have been the case with some of the youngsters in the much bigger Autumn training squad, and certainly no wildcards as per Barberry being invited to experience the training camp environment.

I wasn't ever really expecting much radical chopping and changing anyway. Jones has never been one for "giving players a go" or believing that a one off second string game is of real value for developing a team, he even scrapped the Saxons. The summer tour (assuming it goes ahead) will give that opportunity for a large number of fringe players with a fair chunk of the seniors off with the lions (assuming it goes ahead), and that would've been the case this summer in Japan with the world cup players rested.

We still see a decent number of caps rotated through the team due to injuries and genuine changes, aside from (as is pointed out endlessly) a few key positions in the backs.

The danger with this small closed squad for me centres on the fitness and sharpness of the Saracens players, there's a big unknown with many of them. It could be true for any single player of course, but we have a specific and significant group who will be very short of recent game time. Carrying dead weight in the squad will leave Jones short on options. Cannot imagine the likes of Itoje, Farrel or Daly missing out but some of the others could be expendable.

In general though it will be a big thing for any well established players to be left out for a new or previously fringe face, and that means the actual playing side is very unlikely to be much different to the autumn. Please mentally prepare yourselves for this to avoid excessive internet angst and meltdowns when Youngs, Farrell, and Daly start.

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Post by lostinwales Wed 20 Jan 2021, 11:04 am

Daly gets so much hate, but he is a really good player, just has not got the complete set of skills for FB.

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Post by Mr Bounce Wed 20 Jan 2021, 11:34 am

I've always felt that Daly is one of those good at everything players similar to Austin Healey. Good enough to cover wing, O/C and Full Back but not top drawer in any of them. He's a cracking player to watch in attack and a dreadful one to watch in defence when there's a bobbling ball and 3 opposition players bearing down on him.

I think he's best suited to wing but I feel that England are pretty blessed in that position with Watson, May, Nowell (when he isn't broken), Thorley, McConnachie, and there's up and comers such as Odogwu. I initially thought he'd be a better full back but Eddie's experiment hasn't really proved anything we didn't already know. A cracking player, but probably best suited to super-sub at 23.

I would be very interested to see if Jones wants to take a look at Harry Randall as he's been playing brilliantly. I really like the look of Odogwu - he has serious pace and is a proper ball of muscle - reminds me a bit of Nowell physically. As a Wasps fan I'd like him with the club, but I'd be pleased for him playing for his country. As others have said, it's unlikely that there'll be lots of new blood but we'll see. Second-guessing Jones isn't easy!

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 20 Jan 2021, 11:58 am

Matt Proudfoot has Covid so now Eddie Jones and Simon Amor are in isolation for 10 days, so will miss the starting of training camp.

So its all on Mitchell

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Post by Gooseberry Wed 20 Jan 2021, 12:22 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Matt Proudfoot has Covid so now Eddie Jones and Simon Amor are in isolation for 10 days, so will miss the starting of training camp.

So its all on Mitchell  


They will only miss day one of the training camp so not that big a deal, although proudfoot unknown how long he'll be out

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 20 Jan 2021, 12:49 pm

king_carlos wrote:As far as I understand it's a 28-man squad named for the whole tournament with some scope to bring in injury replacements if required. Sounds like they will be in a bubble effectively for the tournament though so not returning to club games if they miss out the matchday 23.

Shame as that limits development opportunities but pretty much the players I named minus Nowell then.

Shame as there was some young players I had hoped to see get some exposure to the England camp. Randall and Steward for starters.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 20 Jan 2021, 1:02 pm

Redpath is in the Scotland sqaud...not really much of a surprise.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 20 Jan 2021, 1:15 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Redpath is in the Scotland sqaud...not really much of a surprise.

Scotland want a long term option at 12 and he can offer that. Next year there could be Hastings and Redpath combining for Scotland which might cause some flashes of deja vu for some.

He's coming on nicely since his move to Bath and regular game time. Eddie might be rueful he didn't cap him when he had the chance.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Jan 2021, 1:23 pm

I can understand that Jones needs results as well as developing his team/players. It comes down to the lack of matches for a second team to tie players down. That aligned to the lack of WR pushing a more comprehensive compensation payment for developing players through U20s etc.

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Post by Cumbrian Wed 20 Jan 2021, 1:23 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Report from the Mail today predicting Paolo Odogwu will get the call Friday & beat Italy to it.
Great news if true & a spectacular rise from nowhere.

I hope he's genuinely in the long term plans, I would hate to see a situation where he gets one or two England caps and at 29/30 he is left wishing that he had chosen Italy.   I feel he could have had a long career with the Azzuri, I think he would arguably have had a bigger impact for them too.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Jan 2021, 1:28 pm

Ed Robinson from Jersey is coming in for the 6ns as support cover for Ryles.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Jan 2021, 1:30 pm

Cumbrian wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Report from the Mail today predicting Paolo Odogwu will get the call Friday & beat Italy to it.
Great news if true & a spectacular rise from nowhere.

I hope he's genuinely in the long term plans, I would hate to see a situation where he gets one or two England caps and at 29/30 he is left wishing that he had chosen Italy.   I feel he could have had a long career with the Azzuri, I think he would arguably have had a bigger impact for them too.

Ha. You're too nice. Gone the exact opposite way of wanting to hoard players myself!

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Post by Cumbrian Wed 20 Jan 2021, 1:37 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Report from the Mail today predicting Paolo Odogwu will get the call Friday & beat Italy to it.
Great news if true & a spectacular rise from nowhere.

I hope he's genuinely in the long term plans, I would hate to see a situation where he gets one or two England caps and at 29/30 he is left wishing that he had chosen Italy.   I feel he could have had a long career with the Azzuri, I think he would arguably have had a bigger impact for them too.

Ha. You're too nice. Gone the exact opposite way of wanting to hoard players myself!

Generally I agree with your position, I want English qualified players to play for England. However, in this situation I really want to see Italy be more competitive.



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Post by BigTrevsbigmac Wed 20 Jan 2021, 2:02 pm

Cumbrian wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Report from the Mail today predicting Paolo Odogwu will get the call Friday & beat Italy to it.
Great news if true & a spectacular rise from nowhere.

I hope he's genuinely in the long term plans, I would hate to see a situation where he gets one or two England caps and at 29/30 he is left wishing that he had chosen Italy.   I feel he could have had a long career with the Azzuri, I think he would arguably have had a bigger impact for them too.

Ha. You're too nice. Gone the exact opposite way of wanting to hoard players myself!

Generally I agree with your position, I want English qualified players to play for England.  However, in this situation I really want to see Italy be more competitive.







I can sort of understand, however, if you play in England were born in England & played age grade rugby for England its a big leap at 23 to pick Italy first. Bearing in mind Manu is not in the equation any more & apart from Olly Lawrence there really isnt anyone around thats similar.

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Post by BamBam Wed 20 Jan 2021, 3:02 pm

Disappointing to see Redpath in the Scotland squad, I remember posting a prediction somewhere about Redpath/Lawrence being the England centre partnership in RWC 2023!

Who knows where he'd be if he hadn't got that injury when selected for the summer tour to SA (I think?), certainly looks to have all the skills wanted in a 12 internationally

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Jan 2021, 3:17 pm

Well on the positive side of things wales havent called Randall who is apparently still able to play for them. Was never that fussed about him but hes showing up really well in the last 6 months.

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Post by Gooseberry Wed 20 Jan 2021, 3:30 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Redpath is in the Scotland sqaud...not really much of a surprise.

Scotland want a long term option at 12 and he can offer that. Next year there could be Hastings and Redpath combining for Scotland which might cause some flashes of deja vu for some.

He's coming on nicely since his move to Bath and regular game time. Eddie might be rueful he didn't cap him when he had the chance.

TBF he might've been capped if he hadn't been injured for the SA tour when selected as a child, and if he was still considered on the radar Japan in the summer. #

As it is England ended up playing about half a dozen centres in one game during the 6 nations, so whilst we may lack stand out candidates its not like numbers is a huge issue and he must have been seen as a fair way down the pecking order.

The ide of capping players just to tie them is pretty gross and hopefully something that's not on the minds of international coaches, and something a player would think twice about if there's a clear chance they might have a choice. What we are maybe seeing though is a consequence of not having an A team anymore to tie players coming out the U20's.

Anyway it is what it is and at least he has a Scottish name unlike the Evans brothers. I'm sure he'll be chomping at the bit to take a bite out of England if selected.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Jan 2021, 3:34 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Redpath is in the Scotland sqaud...not really much of a surprise.

Scotland want a long term option at 12 and he can offer that. Next year there could be Hastings and Redpath combining for Scotland which might cause some flashes of deja vu for some.

He's coming on nicely since his move to Bath and regular game time. Eddie might be rueful he didn't cap him when he had the chance.

TBF he might've been capped if he hadn't been injured for the SA tour when selected as a child, and if he was still considered on the radar Japan in the summer. #

As it is England ended up playing about half a dozen centres in one game during the 6 nations, so whilst we may lack stand out candidates its not like numbers is a huge issue and he must have been seen as a fair way down the pecking order.

The ide of capping players just to tie them is pretty gross and hopefully something that's not on the minds of international coaches, and something a player would think twice about if there's a clear chance they might have a choice. What we are maybe seeing though is a consequence of not having an A team anymore to tie players coming out the U20's.

Anyway it is what it is and at least he has a Scottish name unlike the Evans brothers. I'm sure he'll be chomping at the bit to take a bite out of England if selected.

Why would the idea of a professional set up ensuring they have the best possible chance of winning more be gross? Would it be better if we had a little chat with scotland and decide who would get the most out of any dual.qualified players?

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Post by king_carlos Wed 20 Jan 2021, 4:09 pm

A shame about Redpath. I really rate him highly. That Scotland squad has a lot to like about it. Cummings and Gray x 2 is a good boiler room. Ritchie, Watson and Graham a potentially very good back row. Sutherland and Fagerson both fit is important for them as well with Sinckler unavailable and Mako short of game time.

Then in the backs the most important axis for Scotland of Price, Russell and Hogg are all available.

The outbreak at Bath is bad timing for England. Watson, Underhill and Stuart will be nailed on to start the Scotland game. Stuart in particular will have a big role to play against Sutherland's dangerous scrummaging.

On the upside for the first round Scotland are missing McInally and Brown which means George and Cowan-Dickie should have a big impact at hooker. I've watched George Turner since he was playing in the Scottish Premiership back in the day. He can be excellent in the loose particularly in the tackle. His set-piece is a fair way behind George and LCD who will both surely be Lions tourists.

I actually hope LCD starts given George hasn't had game time. LCD is a really aggressive scrummager to target Turner.

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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 20 Jan 2021, 4:45 pm

I wonder why Devoto and Sam James havent been looked at properly for Englands 12 spot over the last few years.


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Post by GeordieFalcon Wed 20 Jan 2021, 4:53 pm

Whens the England sqaud announced

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Post by king_carlos Wed 20 Jan 2021, 4:59 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Whens the England sqaud announced
Friday announcement. 28-man squad for the whole tournament who will have limited movement in and out of camp to reduce the chance of them catching covid.

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Post by Mr Bounce Wed 20 Jan 2021, 5:28 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I wonder why Devoto and Sam James havent been looked at properly for Englands 12 spot over the last few years.


Because Farrell. And Jones.

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Post by Mr Bounce Wed 20 Jan 2021, 5:29 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I wonder why Devoto and Sam James havent been looked at properly for Englands 12 spot over the last few years.


Because Farrell. And Jones.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 20 Jan 2021, 5:35 pm

Just reading the sinckler citing details. It seems his straight up admission made the process clear cut. Cant help but feel that approach while honest doesnt really get players that far in the long run. Blind denial seems to get the shorter bans in the long run.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/kyle-sincklers-citing-hearing-evidence-claims-tackle-was-potential-leg-breaker-accused-exeter-players-of-laughing-at-him-sinckler-england-bristol/

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 20 Jan 2021, 10:53 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm all for constant rejuvenation. Integrate but it's important to always win the next game. No game is a right off and it's not a nothing year to me. Of course there's always risks bringing people in and sometimes it's a disaster and you need a replacement straight away (tomkins in the ai s a few years ago). Restricted squad risks a run of defeats if it goes pear shaped but it also places a risk on developing players as sometimes you can drop someone out to regain confidence etc.

That said I agree 9 and 15 need to be looked at as matter of urgency.
I agree about 9 and 15. But I really don't think if we will lose much if anything by trying some more up and coming talent. We already know, and I think have reached, the upside of the Ford-Farrell combo. I would sit them both and play young Simmonds and Marcus Smith at 10. Ollie Lawrence seems to be in the plan for the centres which is good. If Eddie Jones is sincere about Odogwu, give him a run. And any scum half less than 100 years old. And whilst I am deconstructing and reconstructing how about Dombrondt at 8 and other Simmonds and Willis on the flank? I doubt this team will be an easy match for anyone. Not every player I mentioned will kick on but I really think some will do very well.

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Post by Mr Bounce Wed 20 Jan 2021, 11:09 pm

That's a scary back row Doc. Like it.

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Post by doctor_grey Thu 21 Jan 2021, 2:28 am

Mr Bounce wrote:That's a scary back row Doc. Like it.
I respect your good taste!!!!!
Seriously, we are not close to seeing the upside of that back row and they could plus up England even more in a position of real strength.

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