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England's Summer of Cricket 2022 as Joe Root Steps Down

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Post by KP_fan Sat 23 Jul 2022, 10:35 pm

Duty281 wrote:What do we think of the future of ODI cricket as a whole, because its demise is once again being discussed?

Wasim Akram thinks ODI cricket should be put out of its misery; Mark Ramprakash says that Stokes' ODI retirement could be the beginning of the end for ODI cricket; but Ravi Shastri says there should be fewer T20Is.

My view is that ODI cricket should stay, and it's T20i cricket that should be abolished. T20 should remain franchise/domestic only. No need for a T20 World Cup when the IPL and such exists. If T20i cricket does stay, I think there should be no three format players, only two formats maximum. I'd be very disappointed if 50-over cricket died on an international basis.  

No format will die as long as they are generating revenues.
And much as I used to call them Meaningless-Masala-ODIs, these games as well as meaningless T20Is generate more revenue then tests.
Instead of 5 to 7 ODIs per series earlier...now limited over series comprise of 3+3.
Test Matches, "The Premium Form" of the game per purists ( including me) is still the commercially subsidized format of the game.
Now the defeats in ODIs/T20Is don't hurt as much, nor are wins remembered for long, only World Cups stay in memory.
But the international games generate high viewership rating & expensive advertisements (atleast on Indian TV)

As I wrote on the Ind-WI thread, the Indians have stopped complaining about too much cricket.
BCCI has found peace by putting out as many as 2 and a half to 3 squads now...call them Senior (or premium) and A and B squads for international games.
Ensuring prime stars get plenty of rest / rotation......and the pool of contracted players gets bigger and everyone gets full contracted fee, playing lesser games
Recently we have seen 2 Indian series running concurrently and twice VVSL has been India's national coach for a series when Dravid was with another Indian squad at the same time in another series.

If a marquee player Stokes was under BCCI management.....BCCI would have NEVER let him retire, would have done a sweet deal with him guaranteeing his workload across formats and asking him to appear for a very limited number of ODIs and T20Is and also letting him skip B grade test series.

No format will die since even these meaningless ODI&T20Is are indeed generating revenues, that are essential to subsidize tests and pump into FC, junior and women cricket development
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Post by alfie Sun 24 Jul 2022, 3:23 am

KP_fan is of course correct to say revenue remains the key...I suppose the question then becomes : Will these "meaningless" games continue to generate the revenue if the quality of the matches is diluted by the absence of many of the best players ? Because while India may be able to put out several different teams at once , not many other countries can do so...and Stokes is not only far from the first star to say enough - but unlikely to be the last.

The cost of Tests for the "smaller" countries is a problem. Wish I had a good solution...

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Post by KP_fan Sun 24 Jul 2022, 7:34 am

alfie wrote:KP_fan is of course correct to say revenue remains the key...I suppose the question then becomes : Will these "meaningless" games continue to generate the revenue if the quality of the matches is diluted by the absence of many of the best players ? Because while India may be able to put out several different teams at once , not many other countries can do so...and Stokes is not only far from the first star to say enough  - but unlikely to be the last.

The cost of Tests for the "smaller" countries is a problem. Wish I had a good solution...

To the original question will ODIs survive,  for the reasons explained the answer was unambiguous yes.

Some more related points on the evolution and sustenance  of cricket as a commercial sport.

I heard Hussain say on air (or maybe in innings break discussions) during the India series that 90% of World's cricketing revenue comes from India.
Maybe  an exaggerated percentage but by far a big chunk comes from India

In 2023 India is forecasted to surpass  China in population
The average Indian passionately understands only one sport and  that's cricket and likes to "consume" at least two games per week.
That means even if India puts out 5 international/IPL  games per week 40%  of its cricket watching population is likely to be viewing every game.

And so Dhawan led B grade ODI vs WI that ran thru  Prime Time hours until 3am had probably more viewership than other TV programs that evening.

It's an entertainment  product that competes with Hollywood, Bollywood, Reality shows and Netflix and wins more viewership.

Look at WI cricket once in decline due to athletes finding baseball,  football and other sport  more lucrative in 1990s and early 2000s has now thriving cricket talent supply line again
They can probably put a squad of world class players who are normally not available to play for WI but are stars on Franchise circuit making most primarily out of IPL.

Look at SA, they walked out of Aus tour commitments,  risking automatic World Cup qualification to promote their Franchise league is well-known.
The finer print lesser know that all their 6 Franchise teams are owned by IPL teams.

I am too much of an outsider to say much on what will  work for England  but general principles of what should work for all nations  are following
- Too much cricket is good as it brings more revenues
More revenues means sooner than later you can have larger and multiple squads and sustain your cricketing system development.

-Tap the Indian revenues with whatever sells with Indian audiences
For Eng it seems like long test series.

-Any format that doesn't work for you commercially., let it go to a secondary status.
Like Wi has done with test matches.


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Post by alfie Sun 24 Jul 2022, 9:06 am

OK ; but is it not rather sad to see West Indies seeing Tests as "secondary" ? Suppose what I rather fear is Tests becoming virtually the exclusive preserve of the Big Three ... ironically reverting to the Long Ago Old Days at a time when Test Cricket was supposed to be expanding...

I concede revenue from short form games is essential ; but would hope a balance can be struck that will enable all forms of the game to continue (albeit this may actually need the richer countries to give a little back to ensure all can participate).

I love Ashes Series and Tests between India and Australia : but I certainly don't want to see them every year to the exclusion of all else !

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Post by king_carlos Sun 24 Jul 2022, 11:47 am

I thought white ball internationals didn't subsidise Tests in general? The majority of the income comes through TV revenue not ticket sales and I thought the broadcasters that actually bid on cricket love Tests as you can cram so many adverts into them? It's actually why those broadcasters like ODIs too. Interestingly broadcasters like women's cricket for a similar-ish reason. Due to the different audience it attracts a completely new set of potential advertisements.

In domestic cricket it's a different story as TV revenue is so negligible, therefore ticket sales become more important and a T20 on a Friday night will obviously make more cash than a four day game that has to be partly in the working week.

If Test cricket were actually managed by a governing body rather than a cartel of the greediest three boards then cricket would sell Tests as a league. Instead of individual nations selling broadcast rights randomly as they fancy you'd sell the WTC broadcast rights as a package. That revenue could then be used to fund the running and growing of the game, paying the players a base level wage. Boards could then use ticket sales, image rights, sponsorship, etc to make more revenue that they can distribute as they wished.

This will never happen though as the BCCI, ECB and CA will never relinquish control now.

Test cricket wont die for the same reason I fear it wont truly grow in the current status quo. Tests are too important to the BCCI, ECB and CA's financial models. They run the game and therefore wont let it die. They also don't give a flying f*** about the game beyond themselves, hence I think we will continue to see this drop off outside of the big three.

With streaming growing I do wonder if we might at some point see a Packer esque break off of the smaller nations with them looking to sell the games between themselves to one service as a package in order to fund their Test cricket. We surely can't be far from a situation where someone says, "hey, lets just put two fingers up at these three boards".

When England pulled out of their Pakistan tour I was honestly just waiting for the PCB to think, "right if they don't care about us why don't we just expand the PSL so it creeps into the English summer". The IPL coincides with the start and draws England stars away. Expand the PSL so it takes up the end of the English summer and really aggressively target County stars with lucrative T20 deals for the County season run in.

As an England and county cricket fan I obviously don't want that to happen but how long can the big three realistically work as this cartel before others get sick of it?

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Post by alfie Sun 24 Jul 2022, 2:36 pm

Looks like the final ODI is going to be totally wrecked by the weather. SA in a strong position at 159/2 after 28 ... But they've got to get back on first...


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Post by Duty281 Sun 24 Jul 2022, 3:09 pm

Yep, rain on the radar until around 6ish, and apparently 18:14 is the cut-off time for England to start a T20 chase.

Funny series. Started in the hottest weather that England has known, ended in the typical misty drizzle.

T20s start later this week.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 24 Jul 2022, 4:07 pm

Game abandoned. But if you have a thirst for ODIs, West Indies are playing India and Shai Hope is playing a typical Shai Hope knock with 51* off 70.

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Post by VTR Sun 24 Jul 2022, 5:27 pm

The end of the ODIs for now. Truly woeful pair of series that won't be vaguely remembered in even a weeks time

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Post by Duty281 Sun 24 Jul 2022, 6:21 pm

Yeah, talking of series that won't be remembered for long, the next lot of ODIs for England that I can see is some in Australia this winter. It looks a truly bizarre winter for England with no rhyme or reason to the scheduling, and a horrific workload and mental toll for the players away from their families.

September - Seven T20s in Pakistan. Seven!! In nothing like the conditions England will face for the T20 World Cup in Australia. Reminds me of when England played seven ODIs in Australia right before a World Cup in the sub-continent.
October - Three T20s in Australia.
October-November - World T20.
November - Three ODIs in Australia.
November-December - Three tests in Pakistan.
February - Two tests in New Zealand.
February - Three ODIs in South Africa.
March - Three ODIs and three T20s in Bangladesh.

That's five different countries visited and up to 54 days of cricket played, not including any warm-ups and such.

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Post by VTR Sun 24 Jul 2022, 6:41 pm

Well a seven match T20 series really is a new low! I hope it's 4-0 either way after the first four matches, so we can be treated to three dead rubbers

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Post by alfie Mon 25 Jul 2022, 5:14 am

I just hope they have the good sense to rest players in some of these meaningless games so they aren't all wrecked for the games that actually matter...

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Post by guildfordbat Mon 25 Jul 2022, 2:08 pm

Whoops, double post. Sorry.


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Post by guildfordbat Mon 25 Jul 2022, 2:08 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Olly Stone just cannot catch a break - injured his finger fielding during a 2nd XI game, and may now miss a large portion of the remaining of the 2022 summer (including The Hundred). A blow to my campaign to get him in for the World T20!

Surprised on several counts that Stone will be leaving Warks and has signed a 3 year deal with Notts from start of next season.

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Post by guildfordbat Mon 25 Jul 2022, 2:15 pm

Galted wrote:
alfie wrote:Hmm . 38 is about as warm as you'd want it to be playing cricket.  Rules about playing in extreme temperatures have started to apply even here in recent years : was actually a round of matches in our club competition called off a year or two back.

Remember playing on Australia Day many years back at something over forty...bowled a rather solid spell and subsequently sat under a cold shower in the rooms for ten minutes in the tea break ! But still ended up seriously affected that night (temperature was still high but mine was higher !)  Was not a pleasant experience at all. Lucky I was a younger man then...

Ridiculous.  Guildford played through the 1946 county season in a duffel coat after his missus donated his whites to the French war effort.

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At the Oval where Sibley has driven me to reading last week’s posts!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 25 Jul 2022, 2:52 pm

Duty281 wrote:Yeah, talking of series that won't be remembered for long, the next lot of ODIs for England that I can see is some in Australia this winter. It looks a truly bizarre winter for England with no rhyme or reason to the scheduling, and a horrific workload and mental toll for the players away from their families.

September - Seven T20s in Pakistan. Seven!! In nothing like the conditions England will face for the T20 World Cup in Australia. Reminds me of when England played seven ODIs in Australia right before a World Cup in the sub-continent.
October - Three T20s in Australia.
October-November - World T20.
November - Three ODIs in Australia.
November-December - Three tests in Pakistan.
February - Two tests in New Zealand.
February - Three ODIs in South Africa.
March - Three ODIs and three T20s in Bangladesh.

That's five different countries visited and up to 54 days of cricket played, not including any warm-ups and such.

Really disappointed that they aren't playing any test matches in Bangladesh - was a thoroughly enjoyable series in 2016 when England last went there, and while the ODIs/T20s in that tour were also good, it seems to me a missed opportunity to be touring the country and not fitting any tests in - especially when during the winter there is time used for totally pointless ODIs in Australia and South Africa.
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Post by Duty281 Mon 25 Jul 2022, 2:58 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Yeah, talking of series that won't be remembered for long, the next lot of ODIs for England that I can see is some in Australia this winter. It looks a truly bizarre winter for England with no rhyme or reason to the scheduling, and a horrific workload and mental toll for the players away from their families.

September - Seven T20s in Pakistan. Seven!! In nothing like the conditions England will face for the T20 World Cup in Australia. Reminds me of when England played seven ODIs in Australia right before a World Cup in the sub-continent.
October - Three T20s in Australia.
October-November - World T20.
November - Three ODIs in Australia.
November-December - Three tests in Pakistan.
February - Two tests in New Zealand.
February - Three ODIs in South Africa.
March - Three ODIs and three T20s in Bangladesh.

That's five different countries visited and up to 54 days of cricket played, not including any warm-ups and such.

Really disappointed that they aren't playing any test matches in Bangladesh - was a thoroughly enjoyable series in 2016 when England last went there, and while the ODIs/T20s in that tour were also good, it seems to me a missed opportunity to be touring the country and not fitting any tests in - especially when during the winter there is time used for totally pointless ODIs in Australia and South Africa.

Agreed. I'd rather see England play a couple of tests in Bangladesh instead of another couple in New Zealand. The New Zealand tests aren't part of the WTC, so I don't get why England are playing a fifth test series in five years v New Zealand - especially with two more test series v NZ coming up in 2024 (away) and 2025 (home)! It's becoming the most saturated fixture in tests.

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Post by JDizzle Tue 26 Jul 2022, 9:07 am

Sophie Ecclestone made 33* off 12 last night - further cementing my view that she should be a top 5 batter in T20s. She has rare power for the women’s game and it is a waste hiding her at 8.

Capsey is a ridiculous talent, and Kemp looks a prospect. They are first real talents in the last 10 years probably, outside of Ecclestone to come in and make an impact at a young age. Promising signs for England bridging that gap to the Aussies.

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Post by king_carlos Tue 26 Jul 2022, 4:57 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Yeah, talking of series that won't be remembered for long, the next lot of ODIs for England that I can see is some in Australia this winter. It looks a truly bizarre winter for England with no rhyme or reason to the scheduling, and a horrific workload and mental toll for the players away from their families.

September - Seven T20s in Pakistan. Seven!! In nothing like the conditions England will face for the T20 World Cup in Australia. Reminds me of when England played seven ODIs in Australia right before a World Cup in the sub-continent.
October - Three T20s in Australia.
October-November - World T20.
November - Three ODIs in Australia.
November-December - Three tests in Pakistan.
February - Two tests in New Zealand.
February - Three ODIs in South Africa.
March - Three ODIs and three T20s in Bangladesh.

That's five different countries visited and up to 54 days of cricket played, not including any warm-ups and such.

Really disappointed that they aren't playing any test matches in Bangladesh - was a thoroughly enjoyable series in 2016 when England last went there, and while the ODIs/T20s in that tour were also good, it seems to me a missed opportunity to be touring the country and not fitting any tests in - especially when during the winter there is time used for totally pointless ODIs in Australia and South Africa.

Agreed. I'd rather see England play a couple of tests in Bangladesh instead of another couple in New Zealand. The New Zealand tests aren't part of the WTC, so I don't get why England are playing a fifth test series in five years v New Zealand - especially with two more test series v NZ coming up in 2024 (away) and 2025 (home)! It's becoming the most saturated fixture in tests.
Rumours are that when the schedule gets announced soon England wont be due to play a Test tour in the Windies for the next 5 year block. The WICB make money from 2 Test tours. England and India. I know we toured them this winter but given what the Windies did in coming to England during covid to get some cricket back on and keep the wheels turning for English cricket I find it utterly depressing that England will now not return until 2028 at the earliest.

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Post by alfie Wed 27 Jul 2022, 1:56 am

Hope those "rumours" are incorrect. 2028 is too long ! I know England keep losing there but no reason not to go back for another try Smile

Shouldn't be too hard to fit a WI tour in anyway , surely ? The cricket playing conditions are usually good at a time of the year not many others are so I'm hopeful they will manage to arrange something - never mind it won't feature in the WTC.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 27 Jul 2022, 8:16 am

To be fair to the ECB (!), there is a World Cup in WI in 2024 and they will be touring for some ODI/T20i series in that time period detailed, which the West Indies cricket board actually make more money from hosting then a test series against England. They'll get plenty of their boozed up Brits abroad Very Happy
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 27 Jul 2022, 7:56 pm

Hey it's England's white ball batting! Nice to see you
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Post by Duty281 Wed 27 Jul 2022, 8:49 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jul/27/knee-operation-chris-woakes-england-t20-cricket-world-cup-in-doubt

After Woakes' failed comeback he will have surgery tomorrow to try and appear in the T20 World Cup, but it seems a forlorn hope. Wood's also had a second operation due to his elbow.

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Post by JDizzle Wed 27 Jul 2022, 9:38 pm

Tristan Stubbs and Dewald Brevis are going to be very fun for a long, long time. Two insane talents.

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Post by Galted Wed 27 Jul 2022, 9:54 pm

JDizzle wrote:Tristan Stubbs and Dewald Brevis are going to be very fun for a long, long time. Two insane talents.

Tristan Stubbs sounds like a posh schoolkid in the Beano.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Wed 27 Jul 2022, 11:20 pm

Duty281 wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jul/27/knee-operation-chris-woakes-england-t20-cricket-world-cup-in-doubt

After Woakes' failed comeback he will have surgery tomorrow to try and appear in the T20 World Cup, but it seems a forlorn hope. Wood's also had a second operation due to his elbow.

Thank god they flogged Woakes in overseas conditions he isn't very good in all winter so he missed the English summer and the conditions he's really really good in Rolling Eyes
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 28 Jul 2022, 12:42 am

JDizzle wrote:Tristan Stubbs and Dewald Brevis are going to be very fun for a long, long time. Two insane talents.

Mumbai would never do this because they’re cowards and will play some horrendous all rounder for “balance” like Pollard or Daniel Sams, but imagining a batting lineup of Rohit, Kishan, Brevis, Suryakumar, Stubbs and Tim David, with Jof and Bumrah opening the bowling. I’m having hot flushes! Would watch England's Summer of Cricket 2022 as Joe Root Steps Down 1347041234
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Post by alfie Thu 28 Jul 2022, 9:24 am

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Hey it's England's white ball batting! Nice to see you

I do not get up at 4 am for slogathons Smile ... but watched a replay of this one later. Small boundaries , ropey SA fielding and some rather wonky bowling too ...Jonny , Malan and Moeen might have thought they were playing - The Netherlands ?

Stubbs had some fun of his own but they were never getting that , even before Jordan put the lid on them at the death.

T20 so I don't take much from it ; but I imagine Buttler and Mott will be feeling a little better with a series lead under their belt for a change !


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Post by VTR Thu 28 Jul 2022, 10:59 am

It was a strange match yesterday. With 4 overs to go, SA actually had more runs than England had at that stage. It fell apart quickly from there for them, but was a lot closer than it would appear just from looking at the scorecard. Good death bowling from England, but will it hold up under real pressure in a World Cup? Not so sure

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 28 Jul 2022, 12:25 pm

Crawley with scores of 5 (12), 35 (66), 17 (28), 25 (51), 0 (27) and 4 (5) in his three county games and six innings between test series - really do not see how they can pick him for the SA tests, not only for the teams sake but it really wouldn't be fair to Crawley himself - clearly in no form whatsoever, and needs time away to really work on his game.
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Post by Duty281 Thu 28 Jul 2022, 12:30 pm

One issue with replacing Crawley is Compton's form has fallen away. Red-hot at the start of the season, but he's now gone 8 innings without a fifty, and only 1 century in his last 18 innings.

But it would be so very England to pick Compton now, and not for the NZ series.

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 28 Jul 2022, 12:51 pm

The bigger issue with Ben Compton beyond the raw numbers is his strike rate, not the be all and end all admittedly but international attacks will find it very easy drying up the runs with him at the crease, he doesn't have the array shots of even Alex Lees to fall back on.

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Post by dummy_half Thu 28 Jul 2022, 1:06 pm

SO do we stick with Crawley by default, or go for one of the more in form openers, either KEaton Jennings off the back of a triple century last week, or Nick Brown after a 250* this? Hameed's got some runs recently too

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Post by king_carlos Thu 28 Jul 2022, 1:18 pm

Compton will basically be going through what many batters do in their early twenties, just in his late twenties. Score a bucket load of runs when no one really knows about you. Those innings produce a load more footage for sides to analyse and find flaws. Bowlers are likely just bowling at those weaknesses now so Compton will need to find a way to adjust.

It's why I wasn't that keen on picking him against New Zealand from such a small sample size. Finding weaknesses and bowling at them consistently is what Test seamers do. Better to let batters figure more of that stuff out in domestic cricket first.

Crawley shouldn't be in the side against the Proteas though. I'm yet to think we've found a better opener than Burns in Lees or Crawley. Damning with faint praise as Burns has his issues but I still rate him higher than those we've picked since.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 28 Jul 2022, 1:19 pm

Nick Browne is in the Sam Northeast camp of losing form at exactly the wrong time. When England were just starting their never ending search for openers Browne was averaging well over 40. Then it all fell apart at the wrong moment.

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Post by JDizzle Thu 28 Jul 2022, 1:35 pm

I mean, it’s Rory Burns for the summer. Averaging 46 in the CC this year is it 3 100s and you have a baseline of what you are going to get - he’s probably going to average about 30, maybe more if he gets going. Then have a look at a full season of data for the winter.

Talk of picking Compton was always premature. He might be good (I’ve not seen him bat yet) but let’s get at least 1.5-2 years to confirm it.

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Post by Galted Thu 28 Jul 2022, 1:39 pm

Might be time for another raid on the colonies.

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Post by Soul Requiem Thu 28 Jul 2022, 1:42 pm

JDizzle wrote:I mean, it’s Rory Burns for the summer. Averaging 46 in the CC this year is it 3 100s and you have a baseline of what you are going to get - he’s probably going to average about 30, maybe more if he gets going. Then have a look at a full season of data for the winter.

Talk of picking Compton was always premature. He might be good (I’ve not seen him bat yet) but let’s get at least 1.5-2 years to confirm it.

I've not watched Compton for any prolonged period of time but a mate of mine who watches most Kent games across the formats isn't convinced he's anything other than a flash in the pan. He went as far as saying that out of the Kent top order Bell-Drummond is the one he'd be looking at selecting, a strong 360 player who's main weakness is concentration rather than ability.

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Post by alfie Thu 28 Jul 2022, 1:47 pm

Burns has a pretty good case - though it does seem a little like going back to the future....

He would probably drop more slip catches than Crawley - and it would mean two lefties at the top of the order. But he has three Test hundreds to his credit so might be the best option for SA. Looking to the Pakistan tour , Jennings might indeed be considered : but would you fancy his chances against the SA pace attack ?

I've never seen Browne so can't comment. Too soon to go back to Hameed , I think.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 28 Jul 2022, 2:36 pm

I think Burns makes the most sense for the SA series - doing fine in the county stuff, won't blow folk away in tests but has shown when he's in decent nick he can do a decent job in tests and has a hundred or two to his name. As KC says, I don't think either Crawley or Lees are better than him, and there isn't exactly options abound at the moment...

Jennings would then seem to make some sense for Pakistan too as a bit of a specialist.

Random aside - one to keep an eye on in the coming years...young James Rew has broken into the Somerset XI in recent weeks, an England U19 star (born in January 2004, to make us all feel old!) - couple of fifties in his first 6 county knocks - very highly thought of, albeit not an opener mind
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Post by dummy_half Thu 28 Jul 2022, 2:50 pm

I always feel with Burns that his technical quirks mean he's always going to be a bit streaky - if he's on form and everything moves in sync he's not bad, but it can all fall apart quite quickly especially against real high quality pace bowlers. It is a bit of a case of whether an operner likely to average around 30 is good enough. We should be able to find better, but it's proven to be a struggle...

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Post by Duty281 Thu 28 Jul 2022, 3:41 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Random aside - one to keep an eye on in the coming years...young James Rew has broken into the Somerset XI in recent weeks, an England U19 star (born in January 2004, to make us all feel old!) - couple of fifties in his first 6 county knocks - very highly thought of, albeit not an opener mind

Just got his first FC hundred, albeit on a flat deck where the match score is currently 1110/15.

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Post by JDizzle Thu 28 Jul 2022, 9:12 pm

There is no logic in sending Curran in ahead of Livingstone. Getting obsessed with match ups over just sending in the bloke who is much better at batting.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 28 Jul 2022, 10:51 pm

JDizzle wrote:There is no logic in sending Curran in ahead of Livingstone. Getting obsessed with match ups over just sending in the bloke who is much better at batting.

Think tonight also showed the folly of going with the bowler heavy > batter heavy approach - if England are going to have to play their 2nd string bowlers due to injury (as let’s face it is likely), then just plonking another one in the lineup doesn’t have the effect that adding another batter does - especially as that batter is likely to be a better cricketer than the bowler, with Englands white ball batting pool!

Roy must be in serious serious trouble at this point - another horrendous knock tonight. If he isn’t even getting out going gung ho in the powerplay then there is little point in him playing - Salt in (well Will Jacks in, but they’re being cowards and not picking him).
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Post by alfie Fri 29 Jul 2022, 4:31 am

I am also not a huge fan of this obsession with "match ups". OK , it can work sometimes ; but in a game where all sorts of things happen over a few balls the same result may have been obtained anyway... And if the move backfires you've maybe lost a valuable resource for no gain.

Chasing 208 never easy ; but did Moeen ahead of Bairstow and Curran ahead of Livingstone improve their chances ? I don't think so.

Re the balance question : in Australia , Stokes and Moeen are only likely to share four overs so they are going to need Rashid plus three pace men...so getting used to that formula makes some sense.

Roy is a problem because he is a bit of a passenger at present. Which also puts added pressure on Buttler who is only producing brief cameos in his opener role. Unfortunately getting short of time to make adjustments...

At least you have another decider - as long as it doesn't rain Smile

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Post by VTR Fri 29 Jul 2022, 7:08 am

Was terrible from Roy, used almost 4 overs to score a whole 20 runs. Put pressure on others to take risks which may have contributed to their dismissals. Clear man of the match for South Africa!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Fri 29 Jul 2022, 9:40 am

VTR wrote:Was terrible from Roy, used almost 4 overs to score a whole 20 runs. Put pressure on others to take risks which may have contributed to their dismissals. Clear man of the match for South Africa!

Exactly - his role is the "dasher" type at the start of the innings, but with him struggling it's seemed like Buttler has tried to take it on...and done ok at it, but he's much better in the "anchor" type role of the opening pair - of course Buttler isn't your traditional strike rate of 120 "anchor", more of a modern one who does it at 140/150 cos he's a freak of a white ball bat...but he has been better for England and Rajasthan when he's been able to get an over or two to get his eye in, not having to worry about quick runs as that's the role of his opening partner.

And in the past, when Roy has been out of nick at least he's been quick about hitting a boundary or two and getting out - not what he's doing now, chewing up deliveries!
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Post by Duty281 Fri 29 Jul 2022, 10:49 am

As well as Roy, I've been concerned with Rashid's bowling this summer and a lack of consistency from him.

Just feels like England's limited-overs teams are falling apart. Morgan's gone, Stokes is out of ODIs, the bowling is really struggling, other key bowlers are injured, and Roy's career is in a tailspin from which he might never recover.

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Post by VTR Fri 29 Jul 2022, 10:57 am

Agree, the team peaked a few years ago. They had a strong chance in the last T20 World Cup, but injuries to bowlers were costly when it came to it. I'd also add Sam Curran is in the team as an all rounder, but has delivered barely anything with the bat in any format for England since 2018

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Post by JDizzle Fri 29 Jul 2022, 2:07 pm

Roy - 32
Buttler - 31
Malan - 34
Root - 31
Bairstow - 32
Stokes - 31
Livingstone - 28 (29 in August)
Moeen - 35

It was mentioned a few times on here, but England’s batting is old. Individually, 31/32 isn’t old - but when all of you top 8 white ball batters are that age bar Livi then law of averages says some will fall off.

Hindsight is wonderful, but perhaps it would have been worth breaking up that unreal batting line up with a few fresh faces as first choice - not just filling in, a few years ago.

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