England's Summer of Cricket 2022 as Joe Root Steps Down

First topic message reminder :

Duty281 wrote:What do we think of the future of ODI cricket as a whole, because its demise is once again being discussed?

Wasim Akram thinks ODI cricket should be put out of its misery; Mark Ramprakash says that Stokes' ODI retirement could be the beginning of the end for ODI cricket; but Ravi Shastri says there should be fewer T20Is.

My view is that ODI cricket should stay, and it's T20i cricket that should be abolished. T20 should remain franchise/domestic only. No need for a T20 World Cup when the IPL and such exists. If T20i cricket does stay, I think there should be no three format players, only two formats maximum. I'd be very disappointed if 50-over cricket died on an international basis.  

No format will die as long as they are generating revenues.
And much as I used to call them Meaningless-Masala-ODIs, these games as well as meaningless T20Is generate more revenue then tests.
Instead of 5 to 7 ODIs per series earlier...now limited over series comprise of 3+3.
Test Matches, "The Premium Form" of the game per purists ( including me) is still the commercially subsidized format of the game.
Now the defeats in ODIs/T20Is don't hurt as much, nor are wins remembered for long, only World Cups stay in memory.
But the international games generate high viewership rating & expensive advertisements (atleast on Indian TV)

As I wrote on the Ind-WI thread, the Indians have stopped complaining about too much cricket.
BCCI has found peace by putting out as many as 2 and a half to 3 squads now...call them Senior (or premium) and A and B squads for international games.
Ensuring prime stars get plenty of rest / rotation......and the pool of contracted players gets bigger and everyone gets full contracted fee, playing lesser games
Recently we have seen 2 Indian series running concurrently and twice VVSL has been India's national coach for a series when Dravid was with another Indian squad at the same time in another series.

If a marquee player Stokes was under BCCI management.....BCCI would have NEVER let him retire, would have done a sweet deal with him guaranteeing his workload across formats and asking him to appear for a very limited number of ODIs and T20Is and also letting him skip B grade test series.

No format will die since even these meaningless ODI&T20Is are indeed generating revenues, that are essential to subsidize tests and pump into FC, junior and women cricket development

Do Brian Close and Colin Cowdrey get on? They must be close to the cut off last 10 - they definitely both played in their 40s though.

Boycott must be one?

I'm almost certain Dolly played into his forties though he of course should have played a lot more in his prime.

Mike Brearley
Gareth Batty
Shaun Udal
Mike Gatting

Off the top of my head they played late into their careers but not sure if in their forties?

Following up the Udal and Batty line of thinking, spinners surely make up a few?

Illy?
Emburey?

Bob Taylor played late after Knott's retirement too I'm fairly sure.

guildfordbat wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Graham Gooch

Yep, that's one. You've even met the most recent one with me!

Your best mate himself!

Emburey is definitely one, played a Test in 1995 and looked more like 60. As a bad batting lineup enthusiast, Craig White batting at 6 in that Test is a real gem!

You guys are getting there. Well done [he typed patronisingly looking at the typed answer sheet in front of him ].

Correct answers supplied so far are:
1. Gooch
2. Stewart, the most recent in 2003
3. Close - recalled in '76 at age of 45 against the Windies pace quartet
4. Cowdrey - recalled in '74-75 to face Lillee and Thomson down under
5. Illy, the last of the most recent 10 to play aged 40 or over
6. Emburey
7. Taylor
8. Boycs.

Dolly did play into his 40s but he's just outside the most recent 10 to do so.

Brearley, Batty, Udal and Gatting played Tests into their late 30s but not at age 40 (unless I've been given duff info).

So two to get. Clue: both slow men and one a personal favourite from our Hall of Fame nominations.

Ahh Fred Titmus by any chance Guildford?

king_carlos wrote:Ahh Fred Titmus by any chance Guildford?

Spot on, Carlos. Like Cowdrey, he played in the '74-75 Ashes series aged 42. 

Very much his county career and longevity which made Titmus a personal favourite. He played for Middlesex in 5 decades - the 1940s, 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s. He had actually retired by the end of the 70s but early in the next decade he was at Lords and went into the home changing room before the start of a Championship match to wish his former team mates well and to cadge a cup of tea. The ever astute Middlesex skipper Brearley recognised what Fred could do on the spinning track and talked him into signing on again and playing the match which he did with some success. Brilliant!

So just the one to go. He was one of the two I didn't get. The other one I missed was Bob Taylor - I under estimated how old he was, just thought he looked old! 

Anyway, the one you're after is another off spinner but of far more ample girth than Fred Titmus!

Eddie Hemmings?

VTR wrote:Eddie Hemmings?

Spot on, VTR.

Ample girth was a reference to when he played an Ashes Test down under. Someone smuggled a live pig into the ground (as you do) and let it loose on the outfield. Written on one side of the poor animal was Botham’s name and Hemings’ on the other.

Won't be seeing a fantastic England chase in this test, because the South Africans have won the toss and stuck England into bat. For the first time under 'Bazball' England will have to set a target.

SA's team is as expected with Rabada defying injury.

I’m very near to Lords now, at the Oval for a RL50 game. Weather is encouraging and much better than recently forecast - hot and clammy with a lot of cloud but some sun at times and, most importantly, dry.

As for the SA batting, I’ll be interested to see how Markram goes in this series. He’s not property done it when I’ve watched him in Tests and ODIs but I was very impressed when I saw him batting for Hampshire about 3 years ago. Very solid innings which established a base for others but still took full advantage himself of anything too loose or wayward. I expected him to become a bigger name than he is atm.

Class stuff from Rabada to start off. Gave Lees a right good going over and it's 6/1.

Was slightly more surprised in the previous over that Crawley managed to leave six consecutive deliveries alone!

Duty281 wrote:Won't be seeing a fantastic England chase in this test, because the South Africans have won the toss and stuck England into bat. For the first time under 'Bazball' England will have to set a target.

SA's team is as expected with Rabada defying injury.

Indeed . No fourth innings chase - unless of course SA were to follow on and set a target

And not the start the home team wanted. The rather unconvincing Lees gone already...Rabada looking good and apparently over his injury worries.

Testing time for Crawley and Pope early on.

I see Stokes wanted to bowl first too. Just because they've done so well chasing , or is he expecting great bowling conditions ? Doesn't look a bad day for batting at the moment with the projected rain not in evidence so far...

Sun out , even ! Nice drive from Crawley : would love to see him make a score today but confess heart in mouth a lot watching him....especially when they dangle it outside his off stump.

And the point of picking Crawley is...?

Rabada outclassed him all the way and SA have done the job of getting Root in to face the new ball.

And there he goes...in a familiar way. Nice catch by Markram. Rabada bowling well and England in trouble at 25/2.

Root will feel this is normal

SA apparently as rubbish at reviews as England

That was always going leg side.

Duty281 wrote:And the point of picking Crawley is...?

Rabada outclassed him all the way and SA have done the job of getting Root in to face the new ball.

Well I guess the new policy under Key is to show faith in players and give them a good chance to prove themselves. But yes I do think they've shown a bit too much faith in Crawley - or arguably not much faith in any of the alternatives. Now the question is going to come (unless he gets second innings runs) : do we double down or look elsewhere ? Doesn't help that Lees remains still a work in progress...
Discussion for later anyway. He might yet get a hundred in the second knock. (Though I won't be placing a bet !)

Oh dear...Jansen getting movement ...and getting Root. Wrong side of umpires call for Joe (unlike Pope , had they reviewed the earlier one) ; and England in heaps of trouble at 42/3.

Marco Jansen 6ft 8” wowzers he’s a big chap

England in the mud early on, despite Nortje's best attempts to serve up some runs. Still got at least another 14-19 overs before the ball becomes useless, England could be five or six down by then!

Jansen's tall, but he's no Mohammad Irfan!

The old days for Bairstow. What a peach from Nortje. Big trouble for England now.

Looks a good toss to have won this one...

Getting worse...Nortje straight through Bairstow's defence with a full ball and at 55/4 England are really battling. Long tail not that far away now...time for the skipper to stand up.

Ball is really moving around . Has been too much for most of the bats so far - especially coming down at ninety !
Nortje looked poor when pitching short but seems to have found his length now. Not much fun for the bats at present. Might indeed be good toss to win...but a long way to go yet.

It's normally a good toss to win at Lord's. It's generally better for batting on days two and three, and with the lights on and a fragile England batting order I think it was a no-brainer to stick the home side in.

Some beautiful test bowling attacks to watch around the world and South Africa's is right up there with Australia. They just need to tell Nortje to stop bowling short!

Seems Stokes is going to try and hit his way out of trouble. Fraught with danger but I guess if luck is with you it can upset the bowlers. SA attack has certainly been lethal so far...although apart from that ripper that did for YJB , Nortje has been mostly too short and wide.

Rabada back now which strikes me as a good move.

Stokes can and will play positively, but this charging down the wicket all the time is complete nonsense. Its not been any part of the success in the four previous Tests, others have played the big innings

VTR wrote:Stokes can and will play positively, but this charging down the wicket all the time is complete nonsense. Its not been any part of the success in the four previous Tests, others have played the big innings

Yes and no : I don't much like it - but it has wrong footed the bowlers once or twice. As long as he only foes it a couple of times and then plays properly , I can accept it. As long as he doesn't get out for next to nothing

Good fifty for Pope : very well played ; timely for him and the team. Hundred up !

And SA end the session on a high as Stokes is undone by a snorter from Nortje and caught at slip !

SA on top as England finish on 100/5. Elgar will be happy with his choice to send the home team in...

Just as it seemed England were setting themselves for a daring counter-attack in the afternoon to take them beyond 250, Stokes gets squared up with the last ball. Just Foakes + the long tail left to support Pope means making 200 will be a struggle.

Really good session from South Africa, minus Nortje's hapless short stuff. They attacked and kept attacking. They didn't blink when England hit boundaries. It was a good point that Vaughan made earlier in the week - fielding sides have to be brave when England are hitting boundaries. Don't put the field back as NZ and India did in those four chases. Meet fire with fire.

Duty281 wrote:

Really good session from South Africa, minus Nortje's hapless short stuff. They attacked and kept attacking. They didn't blink when England hit boundaries. It was a good point that Vaughan made earlier in the week - fielding sides have to be brave when England are hitting boundaries. Don't put the field back as NZ and India did in those four chases. Meet fire with fire.

That works perfectly fine in the first innings when you have plenty of time to pull the match back but entirely different when you're defending in the fourth innings. What works in one situation does not apply to the other.

alfie wrote:

VTR wrote:Stokes can and will play positively, but this charging down the wicket all the time is complete nonsense. Its not been any part of the success in the four previous Tests, others have played the big innings

Yes and no : I don't much like it - but it has wrong footed the bowlers once or twice. As long as he only foes it a couple of times and then plays properly , I can accept it. As long as he doesn't get out for next to nothing

Good fifty for Pope : very well played ; timely for him and the team. Hundred up !

That's my point though, it's not really selective. He's been randomly charging down the wicket all summer. He's far better than that and can put pressure on the bowling in other ways

Foakes gone for another low score and England in trouble of even making 150 here - rain looks close too

Nortje really does mix it up , eh ? Has removed England's two most dangerous bats with absolute pearls - and added Foakes to his bag since lunch ; but apart from that served up a lot of four balls...

I'm sure his captain is quite happy with his results today

Pope left with a hutch full of rabbits to try and inch this over 150. And here comes the rain...

Not sure if they'll get back on today. Rain seems settled in for the next couple of hours, then there's the darkness to contend with.

Not good days for the men under pressure - Lees, Crawley and Foakes.

Yes fancy Alfie will be good to head to bed and get some kip in!

Play abandoned for the day, but the weather looks dry for the rest of the test.

Very timely wickets from South Africa today. Stokes out to the last ball of the morning, then Foakes out a few balls before the rain hit. Gives them the clear advantage in the test and a reminder of how potent their seam bowlers are.

Was at Lords today and can confirm two things. Nortje bowls absolute rockets and it was hammering it down.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Yes fancy Alfie will be good to head to bed and get some kip in!

Was excellent timing ! Got a couple of hours sleep , missing nothing , before making it back up for the Euro Athletics finals...well timed rain for once - though Foakes might have wished it came a little earlier

All up , not the first day England fans wanted. I see BBC hys already predictably declaring the team is rubbish , NZ and India were just easybeats and SA have already proved aggressive cricket is nonsense

I thought SA bowled extremely well in general in conditions that gave them plenty of help. Might England have handled it better ? Maybe : the gap from the previous Test , in which some played little red ball cricket , probably didn't help ; and one or two will look at their dismissals and think they might have played the ball slightly differently ... but honestly this can be said in almost any innings. Good balls sometimes get good batsmen out early ; no one can score serious runs every time they bat - and we already knew the opening pair at least are very much in the process of trying to establish themselves so no real surprise wickets fell.

Problem now for the home team is Pope (who played very well - encouraging !) has only some fairly "limited" bats to support him ; so getting this even up to 180-200 looks a big challenge. On the other hand , SA are likely to face difficult batting conditions when they get in - and their warm up form was nothing to write home about. Reckon it is a little early to give up on this one. Unless they take a big first innings lead , there will be plenty left in this match...though with (I believe ?) fine weather ahead , a result appears likely.

Pope looked impressive yesterday. Had a couple of close shaves, but when the ball was doing as much as it was then you always will. But he was dismissive of anything short and/or wide especially from Nortje. Big change for him really to cement than number 3 slot today.

I say Pope has a big chance - but I also think this could be over very quickly. Broad only faced two balls from Nortje and both were half way down and to say Broad didn’t look keen on facing them is an understatement!

Root was unlucky. Call was correct in the rules etc but when it is clipping on both height and width then you will always feel aggrieved!

Rabada was seriously impressive and I don’t remember Jansen moving the ball like he did previously, albeit only seen a little of him. But a 6’8 left armer moving it back in like a boomerang is a serious weapon. Allows Nortje to be in the shock and awe role of short spells.

Also, Crawley being really, really bad has meant Lees and Foakes have flown under the radar a bit. All averaging sub 30 (Crawley sub 20!) this summer… England have had their best batting summer in ages so far, yet nearly half the top 7 could be fighting for their place!

I'd add Stokes to that list, not that his place is under threat of course. Not sure what he's averaging this summer but it can't be much. It's been Root, Bairstow and Pope doing much of the work all summer

VTR wrote:I'd add Stokes to that list, not that his place is under threat of course. Not sure what he's averaging this summer but it can't be much. It's been Root, Bairstow and Pope doing much of the work all summer

Actually nearly 49! He had a 75* in the run chase at Trent Bridge, plus one other 50. He has had a lot starts and avoided the really low scores of the others - I think some of the shots he has played to get out makes it feel like he should have scored a lot more.

Lees is on a very bad run at the moment. After a solid, but nothing more, start to the summer with scores of 25, 20, 67 and 44, his last five innings have seen scores of 4, 9, 6, 56 (in the chase v India) and 5 yesterday.

I sense Lees' place is in more danger than Crawley's because of the style question.

On to today. Weather looks better than yesterday, but should still be plenty of cloud around. I think England will do well to make 150 from this position considering the (lack of) strength in the tail. Then the pressure will immediately be on England's bowlers to do the damage straight away.

Should be lively whatever happens ! Good to hear no rain about.

JDizzle wrote:

VTR wrote:I'd add Stokes to that list, not that his place is under threat of course. Not sure what he's averaging this summer but it can't be much. It's been Root, Bairstow and Pope doing much of the work all summer

Actually nearly 49! He had a 75* in the run chase at Trent Bridge, plus one other 50. He has had a lot starts and avoided the really low scores of the others - I think some of the shots he has played to get out makes it feel like he should have scored a lot more.

Wow, that's a surprise. I suppose he had some not outs. There's definitely though been some low scores in there, at times when England were in real trouble. Probably more in the category of getting starts but not going on, than Crawley who would be lucky to get to 10 most of the time