England's Summer of Cricket 2022 as Joe Root Steps Down

First topic message reminder :

Duty281 wrote:What do we think of the future of ODI cricket as a whole, because its demise is once again being discussed?

Wasim Akram thinks ODI cricket should be put out of its misery; Mark Ramprakash says that Stokes' ODI retirement could be the beginning of the end for ODI cricket; but Ravi Shastri says there should be fewer T20Is.

My view is that ODI cricket should stay, and it's T20i cricket that should be abolished. T20 should remain franchise/domestic only. No need for a T20 World Cup when the IPL and such exists. If T20i cricket does stay, I think there should be no three format players, only two formats maximum. I'd be very disappointed if 50-over cricket died on an international basis.  

No format will die as long as they are generating revenues.
And much as I used to call them Meaningless-Masala-ODIs, these games as well as meaningless T20Is generate more revenue then tests.
Instead of 5 to 7 ODIs per series earlier...now limited over series comprise of 3+3.
Test Matches, "The Premium Form" of the game per purists ( including me) is still the commercially subsidized format of the game.
Now the defeats in ODIs/T20Is don't hurt as much, nor are wins remembered for long, only World Cups stay in memory.
But the international games generate high viewership rating & expensive advertisements (atleast on Indian TV)

As I wrote on the Ind-WI thread, the Indians have stopped complaining about too much cricket.
BCCI has found peace by putting out as many as 2 and a half to 3 squads now...call them Senior (or premium) and A and B squads for international games.
Ensuring prime stars get plenty of rest / rotation......and the pool of contracted players gets bigger and everyone gets full contracted fee, playing lesser games
Recently we have seen 2 Indian series running concurrently and twice VVSL has been India's national coach for a series when Dravid was with another Indian squad at the same time in another series.

If a marquee player Stokes was under BCCI management.....BCCI would have NEVER let him retire, would have done a sweet deal with him guaranteeing his workload across formats and asking him to appear for a very limited number of ODIs and T20Is and also letting him skip B grade test series.

No format will die since even these meaningless ODI&T20Is are indeed generating revenues, that are essential to subsidize tests and pump into FC, junior and women cricket development

Yep, Brook's confirmed as in which is the only change for England, Robinson rightly retaining his spot.

South Africa looking likely to make at least a couple of changes. Rickelton is coming in for the injured Van der Dussen - Rickelton has played two tests in his career and done nothing noteworthy, but he has 12 FC hundreds with a FC average of 53, so presumably there's something there. Jansen, foolishly dropped last time, should come in for Harmer, and possibly Zondo in for the out-of-form Markram.

Interesting fact on Ask Steven, SA haven't drawn any of their last 43 tests, the longest such run of any country in test history.

Another 3 results in the next 3 games and the run will include over 10% of SA's tests ever played.

With the combination of a bowler friendly period, such a fantastic seam attack, a couple of good spinner but a weak batting line-up that makes sense but is a really fun stat, Galted.

So indeed time to turn attention to the Test summer conclusion...though looking at the weather forecast for London I am wondering how much of the allotted five days will be available for cricket ! Which may not matter given the way both teams have managed collapses over the first two games

England logically enough confirming Harry Brook is rewarded for exemplary performance in drink carrying over the previous six matches with a place in the XI despite the presence of Duckett in the squad - and no other changes. Sensible - though again , with all the rain around , might they yet sub in another pace man for Leach ? Probably not...

SA replacing the injured van der Dussen with Rickelton which can't hurt , given the former's lack of runs ; and if Markram also were to get dropped it would not be astonishing. In truth they really don't have any outstanding bats at present so it is a matter of which of those available can put in a performance on a day - anyone's guess I think. Their bowling , by contrast , is excellent and shades England's attack for variety : just a question of whether they can pick the right mix for this game - as they so clearly failed to do in Manchester. Surely Jansen comes back ? But for whom - and is that the only change ? Nothing announced yet.

I am a little less confident for England than I was , due to the Bairstow injury. I am hopeful regarding Harry Brook ; but he has big boots to fill in his first game. And a dangerous attack to debut against.

Pretty obvious that the main difference between the insipid England batting displays of 2021 (and total reliance on Root) , against the much more robust performances we have seen recently , is the emergence of YJB as a second middle order rock. Not just the runs he has scored himself , but the additional stability seems to have rubbed off on others too , so that we see : in 2021 ; just seven centuries in total scored by England players over 15 matches - (six of them by Root !).  And this year ; 16 so far in 11 games (Bairstow 6 Root 5 Stokes 2 and Crawley Pope and Foakes 1 each) : big change ! On the rare occasions when both Root and Jonny have failed , the resulting scorelines have been rather underwhelming ; so I hope the fact that Joe has three failures in a row against SA so far means he is due for a Big One this week.

Weather , pitch , toss, SA selections... too many variables for me to be putting money on a result in advance. I reckon England still have the edge in batting , but SA's bowling strength could make a mockery of that as they did at Lord's. Loose prediction : Root fires and Robinson gets just reward for his efforts this week - and I fancy the home side : but after the summer we have seen , nothing is going to surprise me...

alfie wrote:So indeed time to turn attention to the Test summer conclusion...though looking at the weather forecast for London I am wondering how much of the allotted five days will be available for cricket ! Which may not matter given the way both teams have managed collapses over the first two games

England logically enough confirming Harry Brook is rewarded for exemplary performance in drink carrying over the previous six matches with a place in the XI despite the presence of Duckett in the squad - and no other changes. Sensible - though again , with all the rain around , might they yet sub in another pace man for Leach ? Probably not...

SA replacing the injured van der Dussen with Rickelton which can't hurt , given the former's lack of runs ; and if Markram also were to get dropped it would not be astonishing. In truth they really don't have any outstanding bats at present so it is a matter of which of those available can put in a performance on a day - anyone's guess I think. Their bowling , by contrast , is excellent and shades England's attack for variety : just a question of whether they can pick the right mix for this game - as they so clearly failed to do in Manchester. Surely Jansen comes back ? But for whom - and is that the only change ? Nothing announced yet.

I am a little less confident for England than I was , due to the Bairstow injury. I am hopeful regarding Harry Brook ; but he has big boots to fill in his first game. And a dangerous attack to debut against.

Pretty obvious that the main difference between the insipid England batting displays of 2021 (and total reliance on Root) , against the much more robust performances we have seen recently , is the emergence of YJB as a second middle order rock. Not just the runs he has scored himself , but the additional stability seems to have rubbed off on others too , so that we see : in 2021 ; just seven centuries in total scored by England players over 15 matches - (six of them by Root !).  And this year ; 16 so far in 11 games (Bairstow 6 Root 5 Stokes 2 and Crawley Pope and Foakes 1 each) : big change ! On the rare occasions when both Root and Jonny have failed , the resulting scorelines have been rather underwhelming ; so I hope the fact that Joe has three failures in a row against SA so far means he is due for a Big One this week.

Weather , pitch , toss, SA selections... too many variables for me to be putting money on a result in advance. I reckon England still have the edge in batting , but SA's bowling strength could make a mockery of that as they did at Lord's. Loose prediction :  Root fires and Robinson gets just reward for his efforts this week - and I fancy the home side : but after the summer we have seen , nothing is going to surprise me...

Hi Alfie - not a beautiful late summer's day by any stretch but at least the forecast is better than it was and it's no longer raining at my gaff! Add to that, the good drainage system at the Oval and I reckon we should get some cricket today. 

I very much share your views, particularly about the uncertainties involved. As for SA's selection, Markram has no one to blame but himself if he gets the chop although I believe there's still a Test batsman within him. One SA spinner from last time will certainly be on drinks duty - most probably Harmer although I would narrowly select him over Maharaj. Harmer's the better bat and usually likes the Oval.

As for liking the Oval - if PJ was running one of his comps for this series, I would have bagsied Pope for this Test. I don't know details - maybe Duty or JD can help here - but his average in all forms of first class cricket at the Oval is huge.

Hope that drainage system is on form , guildford ! (And Pope , of course )

Toss delayed just a half hour I hear so that sounds not too bad. We wait in hope...

Yes, I know Pope's average at the Oval is very high. I think its in the 90s, but not sure on specifics. He got an 81 here last year v India in his only test at this ground.

I see play will start at 11:30 today...but they'll still take lunch at 1.

Four changes for South Africa. The three mentioned earlier and Mulder in for Ngidi, who is injured.

England have won the toss and will bowl. Probably a good toss to win. Broad needs five to eclipse McGrath.

Duty281 wrote:Yes, I know Pope's average at the Oval is very high. I think its in the 90s, but not sure on specifics. He got an 81 here last year v India in his only test at this ground.

I see play will start at 11:30 today...but they'll still take lunch at 1.

Did you really believe that ? I am wondering if we will see any play today. Maybe shouldn't hold Test Matches in London ... more reliable weather up North it seems

Anyway SA look to me to have made the right bowler selection - although I really don't know enough about this Mulder chap. Called "an allrounder" : but his Test stats from 10 games (av 15 , top score of 36) wouldn't even see him considered for England as an opener Can bowl a bit though.

Jokes aside their batting looks a little longer just for Ngidi being out - certainly Jansen looks to be able to handle a bat ; and perhaps more to the point he should add something to the bowling . Two pretty raw batsmen at 4/5 so that might be interesting if some early wickets fall.

Suppose what SA would like is a total washout today so they can bat in better conditions tomorrow...if any better conditions are coming !

Duty281 wrote:Yes, I know Pope's average at the Oval is very high. I think its in the 90s, but not sure on specifics. He got an 81 here last year v India in his only test at this ground.

I see play will start at 11:30 today...but they'll still take lunch at 1.

A measly 88.50 in 30 innings (9 hundreds) as per Will MacPherson.

Here in the Home Counties, it;'s the sort of weather that you could easily get 4 hours play or none at all depending on when the showers occur. Early lunch was sensible, although it was ironic that the best weather of the morning was the 25 minutes between the original scheduled start and 5 minutes before the delayed start time (at which point the rain came back).

If we are going to be playing Test cricket this late in the summer, perhaps we all need to accept that some play will have to be in less ideal conditions - wetter outfields and either earlier starts or play in poorer light later on

I presume the test gets cancelled if the Queen passes?

Duty281 wrote:I presume the test gets cancelled if the Queen passes?

No provision in the rule book according to ECB ; but you'd think it would be hard to continue as if nothing had happened. The way this is being reported and the rush of family members to Balmoral doesn't look good.

Duty281 wrote:I presume the test gets cancelled if the Queen passes?

Hopefully the same applies to the Hants v Northants match.

In any case I am giving up on the day. Full washout predicted so follow on margin will be reduced to 150 if that comes into consideration later

Early night for me...

guildfordbat wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I presume the test gets cancelled if the Queen passes?

Hopefully the same applies to the Hants v Northants match.

Northants might hold on without the Queen's help...

Duty281 wrote:I presume the test gets cancelled if the Queen passes?

Surely Pope will have some formal matters to attend too if this is the case?

Duty281 wrote:The crucial one at Edgbaston in 2008 was close. SA 134/4 when Smith was pinned plumb LBW by Monty. In a DRS era pound to a penny it would have been given. But it was pre-DRS (harsh times for spinners) and given not out. Smith added another 80 runs and SA won by five wickets.

They just showed it again on Sky. Hitting halfway up middle, but pitched way outside off so no chance of getting it in a pre-DRS time!

alfie wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I presume the test gets cancelled if the Queen passes?

No provision in the rule book according to ECB ; but you'd think it would be hard to continue as if nothing had happened. The way this is being reported and the rush of family members to Balmoral doesn't look good.

Confirmed that tomorrow's play will not go ahead, but any news after that is up in the air.

Unsure if they'll aim for a four day test from Saturday-Tuesday, making Tuesday an extra day, or just bin the game and try again next year, as happened with India? Although that may not work with the WTC schedule. A three day test from Saturday-Monday would just be silly.

Duty281 wrote:

alfie wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I presume the test gets cancelled if the Queen passes?

No provision in the rule book according to ECB ; but you'd think it would be hard to continue as if nothing had happened. The way this is being reported and the rush of family members to Balmoral doesn't look good.

Confirmed that tomorrow's play will not go ahead, but any news after that is up in the air.

Unsure if they'll aim for a four day test from Saturday-Tuesday, making Tuesday an extra day, or just bin the game and try again next year, as happened with India? Although that may not work with the WTC schedule. A three day test from Saturday-Monday would just be silly.

They need to sort out and communicate quickly what happens for would be spectators with tickets for either Friday or Saturday. 

Does a ticket sold for the original day two on Friday automatically transfer to the new day two on Saturday? Given the Oval was close to being sold out for Friday and Saturday, probably not. However, without an explanation some are likely to turn up on Saturday and be turned away.

Hardly the first name to think of in this scenario, but poor old Harry Brook has carried drinks all summer, is set for his debut in the final game of the season, then it rains all day and the Queen dies, potentially putting the game in threat.

As guildford says , early decisions are called for...

It would , I think , make sense to add Tuesday to the match as a replacement for the (obviously rightly) abandoned Friday : not like a weather event which is always just part of the game so I can't see that it would be against any sort of Test Match tradition. (Presuming this would be acceptable to both teams and not interfering with any other fixtures.) A four day game is rather more sensible than a three day probable non-event (given likely further weather issues) ; and then one could perhaps switch tickets Friday to Tuesday ?

As an aside : Is there really any reason why an extra day couldn't be called on (logistics/fixtures permitting) whenever the first day - or indeed any full day - of a Test Match is wiped out by weather ? Haven't considered in great detail and I am sure there must be problems associated ; but perhaps worth considering as this is supposed to be both meaningful sporting competition and entertainment; and arbitrarily consigning a match into merely an exercise in time filling "because it has always been so" ,  when an alternative exists seems a bit blinkered.  Of course a lot of games are decided in three days or less anyway ; but still...

Sounds like the test was going to resume, but the footballing authorities cancelling their games has forced the ECB into a reassessment.

alfie wrote:

As an aside : Is there really any reason why an extra day couldn't be called on (logistics/fixtures permitting) whenever the first day - or indeed any full day - of a Test Match is wiped out by weather ? Haven't considered in great detail and I am sure there must be problems associated ; but perhaps worth considering as this is supposed to be both meaningful sporting competition and entertainment; and arbitrarily consigning a match into merely an exercise in time filling "because it has always been so" ,  when an alternative exists seems a bit blinkered.  Of course a lot of games are decided in three days or less anyway ; but still...

I'm sure it is down to allocation of policing isn't it? Police numbers have be decimated as it is, let alone having them on standby in case a test match gets rained off.

Duty281 wrote:Sounds like the test was going to resume, but the footballing authorities cancelling their games has forced the ECB into a reassessment.

Yes I think so. Is a little different though : football is purely domestic , the Test involves other countries - directly , and (WTC) indirectly. Will wait and see.

Confirmed that the test will resume tomorrow, but no word yet as to whether the game will be extended into Tuesday.

Will MacPherson not sounding positive on adding a day 6 - lots of logistical issues for SA with flights/hotels etc

A three day test of 98 overs could actually achieve a result. Weather does look dry for the next three days. Obviously, the first two days will lose overs due to slow over-rates, and we'll lose six overs for the change of innings.

Maybe around 280 overs in the test? The first was over well before 200 overs were reached, and the second didn't make 250 overs.

Factor in the aggressive nature of both sides, the brittleness of both batting line-ups..

I think there'll still be a result. Though it would be funny if play was extended to Tuesday and the game was over before then anyway.

Duty281 wrote:A three day test of 98 overs could actually achieve a result. Weather does look dry for the next three days. Obviously, the first two days will lose overs due to slow over-rates, and we'll lose six overs for the change of innings.

Maybe around 280 overs in the test? The first was over well before 200 overs were reached, and the second didn't make 250 overs.

Factor in the aggressive nature of both sides, the brittleness of both batting line-ups..

I think there'll still be a result. Though it would be funny if play was extended to Tuesday and the game was over before then anyway.

So they can't do an extra day due to SA travel requirements ... Can understand that , short notice , etc. But if they want to try and get the extra 8 overs per day in search of a result , surely they could start at 10.30 ?

Maybe a result is still possible - as long as the pitch has some life and we don't get too much more rain...

Bowling first looking even better then, best chance to get those 20 wickets. South Africa batting first probably have more chance of winning if bowled out cheaply than if they bat into day 2. Saying that though, does the follow on target now reduce to 100 behind?

alfie wrote:

Duty281 wrote:A three day test of 98 overs could actually achieve a result. Weather does look dry for the next three days. Obviously, the first two days will lose overs due to slow over-rates, and we'll lose six overs for the change of innings.

Maybe around 280 overs in the test? The first was over well before 200 overs were reached, and the second didn't make 250 overs.

Factor in the aggressive nature of both sides, the brittleness of both batting line-ups..

I think there'll still be a result. Though it would be funny if play was extended to Tuesday and the game was over before then anyway.

So they can't do an extra day due to SA travel requirements ... Can understand that , short notice , etc.   But if they want to try and get the extra 8 overs per day in search of a result , surely they could start at 10.30 ?

Maybe a result is still possible  - as long as the pitch has some life and we don't get too much more rain...

Hi Alfie - there's no reason whatsoever for a 10.30 start to be an issue. All County Championship matches start at that time in September. It's actually odd that the start time for September Tests in England remains at 11.00.

alfie wrote:

Duty281 wrote:A three day test of 98 overs could actually achieve a result. Weather does look dry for the next three days. Obviously, the first two days will lose overs due to slow over-rates, and we'll lose six overs for the change of innings.

Maybe around 280 overs in the test? The first was over well before 200 overs were reached, and the second didn't make 250 overs.

Factor in the aggressive nature of both sides, the brittleness of both batting line-ups..

I think there'll still be a result. Though it would be funny if play was extended to Tuesday and the game was over before then anyway.

So they can't do an extra day due to SA travel requirements ... Can understand that , short notice , etc.   But if they want to try and get the extra 8 overs per day in search of a result , surely they could start at 10.30 ?

Maybe a result is still possible  - as long as the pitch has some life and we don't get too much more rain...

They should start at 10:30, but the extension will be at the end of the day instead, so the close will be 18:30 with the extra half-hour taking it to 19:00. Could mean light is an issue.

VTR wrote:Bowling first looking even better then, best chance to get those 20 wickets. South Africa batting first probably have more chance of winning if bowled out cheaply than if they bat into day 2. Saying that though, does the follow on target now reduce to 100 behind?

Good point, it will be 150 I believe, 100 is for a two-day game. So that further increases the chance of a result.

https://www.lords.org/mcc/the-laws-of-cricket/the-follow-on

Duty281 wrote:

VTR wrote:Bowling first looking even better then, best chance to get those 20 wickets. South Africa batting first probably have more chance of winning if bowled out cheaply than if they bat into day 2. Saying that though, does the follow on target now reduce to 100 behind?

Good point, it will be 150 I believe, 100 is for a two-day game. So that further increases the chance of a result.

https://www.lords.org/mcc/the-laws-of-cricket/the-follow-on

Well yes - I actually flagged the 150 follow on as soon as it became apparent the first day was going to be a wash out .

However :

If SA were to make a big enough score to make a follow on more than freakishly possible , you'd think the game would be half over already given the pace at which they tend to score...I do agree they would have a better chance (as would England) if the pitch turns out to be full of spitting vipers and both sides record low scores in their first innings...

alfie wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

VTR wrote:Bowling first looking even better then, best chance to get those 20 wickets. South Africa batting first probably have more chance of winning if bowled out cheaply than if they bat into day 2. Saying that though, does the follow on target now reduce to 100 behind?

Good point, it will be 150 I believe, 100 is for a two-day game. So that further increases the chance of a result.

https://www.lords.org/mcc/the-laws-of-cricket/the-follow-on

Well yes - I actually flagged the 150 follow on as soon as it became apparent the first day was going to be a wash out .

However :

If SA were to make a big enough score to make a follow on more than freakishly possible , you'd think the game would be half over already given the pace at which they tend to score...I do agree they would have a better chance (as would England) if the pitch turns out to be full of spitting vipers and both sides record low scores in their first innings...

They don't score too slowly, in fairness to them. In the first test they scored 326 in 89.1 overs. And I think they will actively pursue victory because they need a win for the best chance of making the WTC final.

Great ball from Robinson to smash Elgar's stumps even if it stopped Atherton's tribute to the watching Micky Stewart in its tracks! 

Hearing God Save The King was strange.

Fantastic start from England. Robinson's first over was stupendous, and Anderson was keen not to be outdone. 7/2. There will be a result in this one.

Just as well for Robinson the wicket was one of the balls in which he kept his foot behind the line

Two no balls in the first over shows an ongoing problem . But indeed it was a cracker .

Anderson following up and SA new lad Rickelton in under a bit of pressure , one might say...

Robinson is bloody good ain’t he

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Robinson is bloody good ain’t he

I’ve been trying to tell you!

JDizzle wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Robinson is bloody good ain’t he

I’ve been trying to tell you!

No disagreement from me but that was a very poor leave by Petersen. Always too close for comfort and fatally so it proved.

Rickelton looks a tidy player immediately. Lots of straight lines with how his bat comes down and plays the ball very late. Zondo looks the total opposite - gets himself in some very funky positions with both his body and his bat.

Sorry Ryan.

Robinson has indeed had a great start today. And (notably with that unwise "leave" from Petersen) he's had a better reward for his efforts than he did on day one in Manchester.

Now Broad won't want to be left out of this party...and indeed he strikes immediately !

JDizzle wrote:Sorry Ryan.

Don't apologise!

Robinson near enough unplayable at the moment. 5 in 50 minutes.

Rickelton didn't look too bad until he edged that one. But I wasn't surprised to see him fall... Ball has been doing just enough and England's bowlers have been on song this morning. Very hard time for the new boys to be in so early.

And with Verreynne going too it will be another pretty inexperienced player up next. Robinson three victims already

SA tail looks a bit stronger today - but it will have a bit to do !

Think we can call that England's hour...

Over rate a bit slow at 11 but with five batting changes we can probably excuse that.

Real challenge now for Zondo and Mulder to survive...and Mulder can't !

Rubbish from Mulder. Looks unlikely SA will even bat the session.