SILLY SEASON TRANSFER RUMOURS 20/21

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mikey_dragon wrote:

y ddraig goch wrote:Jac Morgan is leaving the Scarlets for the Ospreys to go and learn his trade off Tipuric. Big loss for the Scarlets but makes sense with Dan Davies, Josh Macelod, and James Davies still on the books. Jac looks like a future Welsh international so it might be a good move for Wales in the long run with the Ospreys finally starting to live up to their potential with a return to the top level of Europe given the players on their books.

Davis and Davies aren’t that good, McCleod is very good but has awful luck with injuries lately. Scarlets’ supporters can’t see why Jac is being let go. Boyde was another good 7 that they let go.

Ospreys are a long way off their potential if last night is anything to go by.

He isn't 'being let go', he's apparently an Ospreys fan and wants to leave despite the offer on the table.
Considering the conditions, the young players in key positions, and the momentum killing refereeing performance (for both sides), Ospreys came out of it with a victory which is what they needed to help secure champions cup rugby next season.
I think it would be better to judge them as of next season when, if all the murmurs are to be believed, we will have a higher proportion of games played with full strength sides.

mikey_dragon wrote:AWJ to Exeter.

Dave Ribbans to Cardiff.

Not heard that one?

Neither has Mikey.

RiscaGame wrote:Neither has Mikey.

Mikey is fishing. Well that or working for 'The Ruck' website.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Neither has Mikey.

Mikey is fishing. Well that or working for 'The Ruck' website.

Fishing or wishing and it's a bit b100dy cold for fishing.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:Neither has Mikey.

Mikey is fishing. Well that or working for 'The Ruck' website.

Fishing or wishing and it's a bit b100dy cold for fishing.

Tough breed those fishermen. My pal fishes off the beach / pier here in Newcastle (Tynemouth) in competitions...and he goes out at night in near hurricanes....says its the best time to fish...

Not wired up properly if you ask me.

I have to admit to being out an hour before sunrise in the middle of winter when you are walking through snow to get to the river, but I am dressed for it with a lot of layers of weatherproof clothing. Those guys at St. James Park, shirtless for 2 hours in just above freezing temperatures they make me wonder about their internal wiring, but then, they are all well padded, naturally. Too many deep fried Mars bars.

Having said that, my wife can still generate enough heat to warm the living room despite being in her late 60s. If we could tap into that all over the world; global warming sorted.

Sad news for La Rochelle that France back-five forward Kevin Gourdon retires with immediate effect due to the discovery of a heart problem discovered. 31 years old, probably had a few years left.

Ultan Dillane is rumoured to be replacing him having announced he is leaving Connacht.

John Cooney to Bordeaux Begles

Cooney and Jalibert is some combo

Maxime Lucu is a really underrated player IMO. If it weren't for France having Dupont and Serin at the same time he might be better known. I rate Cooney as well so will be interested to see if he can displace Lucu for the starting shirt at Bordeaux.

Their current backup Yann Lesgourgues is a decent player also.

Bordeaux have put together a really strong squad so that's a good place for Cooney to be.

Lozowski, Billy and Mako all re-signed by Sarries. Excellent news for them having lost Koch.

geoff999rugby wrote:John Cooney to Bordeaux Begles

Cooney and Jalibert is some combo

Good for him. If Cooney had chosen Scotland he would probably have accumulated 20-30 caps by now. Rated him highly even if he fell back a bit in 2021. Bit like McCloskey, never felt he was given enough opportunities for Ireland particularly considering the alternatives being picked.

Ireland have to be careful with the Leinster bias. Ulster and eventually Munster will start to struggle to keep Irish internationals from going abroad.

Hazel Sapling wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:John Cooney to Bordeaux Begles

Cooney and Jalibert is some combo

Good for him. If Cooney had chosen Scotland he would probably have accumulated 20-30 caps by now. Rated him highly even if he fell back a bit in 2021. Bit like McCloskey, never felt he was given enough opportunities for Ireland particularly considering the alternatives being picked.

Ireland have to be careful with the Leinster bias. Ulster and eventually Munster will start to struggle to keep Irish internationals from going abroad.

Why would Andy Farrell have a bias towards Leinster?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:John Cooney to Bordeaux Begles

Cooney and Jalibert is some combo

Good for him. If Cooney had chosen Scotland he would probably have accumulated 20-30 caps by now. Rated him highly even if he fell back a bit in 2021. Bit like McCloskey, never felt he was given enough opportunities for Ireland particularly considering the alternatives being picked.

Ireland have to be careful with the Leinster bias. Ulster and eventually Munster will start to struggle to keep Irish internationals from going abroad.

Why would Andy Farrell have a bias towards Leinster?

Nothing in particular on his personal bias.

Pointing out that picking 10-12 starters from an excellent side and 3-5 from three Champions Cup squads will eventually cause players to consider their international chances moot playing for Ulster, Connacht or Munster so why not go play in France for more money?

Watson leaving Bath. That's a helluva signing for someone.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Watson leaving Bath. That's a helluva signing for someone.

Not really been great value for them, hopefully he can stay fit for his new club

Where's he going?

BigGee wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Watson leaving Bath. That's a helluva signing for someone.

Not really been great value for them, hopefully he can stay fit for his new club

His first 5 seasons were excellent value to be fair. 97 apps in 5 years from a player that quality is brilliant. Particularly once factoring in international absences. Whilst international call-ups can be frustrating from a club fans perspective they are different to injury absences as the club gets salary cap credits and payments from the RFU.

He only managed 3 apps in 18/19 due to the achilles injury though, then 12 in each of 19/20 and 20/21. Before another major injury this season.

I've no idea how Watson returned even better after two achilles ruptures in 12 months. Hopefully he can do the same after this ACL injury. He's world class when fit.

With JJ and Watson both out of contract I wonder if LI might try to bring some of their pilfered academy grads home?

Isn't Watson currently early into a major injury (ACL)? At 28 (season end), having torn his achilles twice and coming off an ACL, it is a risk to give a big contract for a winger.

Rumours of him going to London Irish (where he started) and Wasps (who have his brother under contract).

Just don't see it from a LI point of view. Great player, but he'd likely be expensive and has sat a lot of time out injured

If there's one thing we can do, it's produce and unearth decent back three talent. Our senior squad is stacked in that area and there are some cracking teenagers in the senior academy waiting for a crack (keep an eye out for Arundell when he starts getting prem game time). Pretty much every other position on the field would be a better candidate for sinking money into an expensive signing.

Despite LI's track record of signing injury-ridden players I doubt they'd be looking at Watson now ...

It may depend on how he sees his future England prospects.

If he thinks that ship has sailed then a pay day in France or Japan may be on offer

BigGee wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Watson leaving Bath. That's a helluva signing for someone.

Not really been great value for them, hopefully he can stay fit for his new club

I was thinking about Watson....who in the prem will be able to afford him? Unless he takes a big cut and considers his England cash? Where is he going to go? He plays about 6-10 games a season max?

Players will have to change their estimations for earning potential down with the lower cap. I imagine some will want to sign shorter contracts so that when the cap goes back up again they can be first in line to make up for lost income.

Dunno who'd be in for Watson as he's a bit of a luxury option.

Joseph has been linked with Sale as a replacement for van Rensburg.

Could Tigers squeeze Watson in? Doesn't seem to fit in with your current policy but would be awesome in your backline.

He could in theory end up with us, Deano likes his X factor wingers, but we're quite well stocked there.

Liam Williams in discussions about leaving Scarlets according to BBC Sport. Something doesn’t seem right there. He’s not long rejoined them and he’s already thinking of leaving. He’s from that ‘region’ too so it was a homecoming of sorts. Head coach Dwayne Peel says that due to covid and injury that he hasn’t really met him and their ‘paths have not really crossed’ yet. Doesn’t seem right to me! Peel has been there long enough.

I doubt very much we'd go in for Watson. We seem to like a workhorse on one wing who primarily leads the kick chase and contest and then a power option on the other wing. Our current batch of wingers are all pretty cheap as well with Murimurivalu not having any real offers before joining, Nadolo taking a pay cut to come in and then both Porter and Potter being signed from Super Rugby training squads having just finished playing Uni rugby.

Kobus van Wyk is probably our best paid winger and is the most likely to be sacrificed for the good of the salary cap reduction.

LI or Bristol might be more standard fits. Apparently Bristol are under the cap this season and with both marquees tied up for another couple of seasons they will keep two marquee spots. This means they might have more cash to spend then anticipated especially if Afoa and Attwood retire as expected.

Of course Sale are being linked with everyone so why not.

Sale run a small squad so could see that one.....they have a fair batch of wingers though.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Sale run a small squad so could see that one.....they have a fair batch of wingers though.

The rumours are suggesting there's going to be quite a bit of squad turnover this summer at Sale as well so there could be some spare cash to invest. Byron McGuigan will be out of contract as will Rob du Preez who won't need replacing so Sale could have some cash to use if they want to add some more finishing ability plus there's some young wingers at Sale for whom Watson would be an excellent mentor.

The Oracle wrote:Liam Williams in discussions about leaving Scarlets according to BBC Sport. Something doesn’t seem right there. He’s not long rejoined them and he’s already thinking of leaving. He’s from that ‘region’ too so it was a homecoming of sorts. Head coach Dwayne Peel says that due to covid and injury that he hasn’t really met him and their ‘paths have not really crossed’ yet. Doesn’t seem right to me! Peel has been there long enough.

He was from Ospreys region but they didn’t offer him a contract. That’s quite a player to let slip through. You’re right I think, in saying that something doesn’t seem right, but we could have figured that from their results. LW was linked with Cardiff but I don’t see what he or they have to gain from that move.

Sean Reffell to Ulster at end of season. Don't know much about him. Any Sarries fans able to provide some info?

Anything in the rumours of Kruis going to Chiefs?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Anything in the rumours of Kruis going to Chiefs?

Initial rumours were Tigers I think....but with them being caught cheating they might not be able to pull that one off now. He'd a cracking signing for anyone, I would think Sale tbh.

Just with Exeter losing so many locks....it would make sense,

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Anything in the rumours of Kruis going to Chiefs?

Initial rumours were Tigers I think....but with them being caught cheating they might not be able to pull that one off now. He'd a cracking signing for anyone, I would think Sale tbh.

As it's an old thing being reviewed I doubt the current squad make up has anything to do with the investigation. The initial rumour was Sarries but they are fairly well stocked, then us but with the emergence of so much young talent we might struggle to squeeze him in.

I would imagine it's more like Kruis's agent is trying to find a club that can fit his salary requirements under the reduced cap. He could be someone's marquee player but again who has a spare marquee spot?

I thought the initial rumour was that it was Harlequins being investigated Sam? We'll have to wait to find the details out. Hope they've learnt their lessons with Saracens are open about this one.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I thought the initial rumour was that it was Harlequins being investigated Sam? We'll have to wait to find the details out. Hope they've learnt their lessons with Saracens are open about this one.

It's Tigers. Initial reports suggesting image rights being paid from the company to a player and no payment ever paid to the company from Tigers.

Who knows if this is the full story though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I thought the initial rumour was that it was Harlequins being investigated Sam? We'll have to wait to find the details out. Hope they've learnt their lessons with Saracens are open about this one.

Yeah the leaks were wrong there, sure wish they were correct though  . Just what we need at Tigers is more controversy. I'm glad the club came out and dealt with the rumours head on rather than let things build up in the media.

The issue apparently revolves around a company that managed images rights for some players. Players are allowed to manage their own image rights but it gets a bit technical if the club were paying for use of the players image rights through that company. There could be PAYE or NI due which might have to be included in the salary cap and send Tigers over. It's all a bit guess work at the minute we'll have to wait and see what comes out in the report.

Given that Leicester have made the statement, and the Times have leaked quite a few details, the initial rumours don't count for much any more.

What Quins have said is that as Champions they were automatically subject to a full salary cap audit. They and a couple of others have also been open in the past about having gone over the cap by a few thousand here or there as a result injury payments, bonuses, pay per game deals etc - which the "overspend tax" in the current version of the cap is specifically designed to accommodate.

However, if the Times report is right, the Tigers issue is potentially more serious. I haven't read the article but one post I've seen said that several of their overseas players had two contracts: one with Tigers and a separate one with WIM for "image rights". If so, and if it involved multiple players and/or multiple seasons, they could be in quite hot water.

While the current squad and leadership aren't quite as implicated in this as Saracens' equivalents were, the squad has quite a lot of continuity from before Borthwick and Pinchen has been at the club in various roles since 2004, including as IIRC CFO before becoming CEO. It probably also helps that Tigers didn't win anything while they were in breach and seem to be co-operating with the investigation (it was non-cooperation that got Saracens relegated, rather than the breaches that were uncovered. Which makes you wonder just how bad the stuff they didn't want uncovered actually was...), but if they've had a serious breach of the cap then PRL won't have much option but to impose a fine and a points penalty - or Nigel Wray would be entirely justified in lawyering up all over again.

i wonder if the Falcons are monitoring this one closely....we were relegated in 2019....with the Tigers only 6 points ahead....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Anything in the rumours of Kruis going to Chiefs?

Initial rumours were Tigers I think....but with them being caught cheating they might not be able to pull that one off now. He'd a cracking signing for anyone, I would think Sale tbh.

In fairness, they are being investigated for historical issues.

So they haven't been found guilty of cheating and if they are, it's not for this season.

Poorfour wrote:Given that Leicester have made the statement, and the Times have leaked quite a few details, the initial rumours don't count for much any more.

What Quins have said is that as Champions they were automatically subject to a full salary cap audit. They and a couple of others have also been open in the past about having gone over the cap by a few thousand here or there as a result injury payments, bonuses, pay per game deals etc - which the "overspend tax" in the current version of the cap is specifically designed to accommodate.

However, if the Times report is right, the Tigers issue is potentially more serious. I haven't read the article but one post I've seen said that several of their overseas players had two contracts: one with Tigers and a separate one with WIM for "image rights". If so, and if it involved multiple players and/or multiple seasons, they could be in quite hot water.

While the current squad and leadership aren't quite as implicated in this as Saracens' equivalents were, the squad has quite a lot of continuity from before Borthwick and Pinchen has been at the club in various roles since 2004, including as IIRC CFO before becoming CEO. It probably also helps that Tigers didn't win anything while they were in breach and seem to be co-operating with the investigation (it was non-cooperation that got Saracens relegated, rather than the breaches that were uncovered. Which makes you wonder just how bad the stuff they didn't want uncovered actually was...), but if they've had a serious breach of the cap then PRL won't have much option but to impose a fine and a points penalty - or Nigel Wray would be entirely justified in lawyering up all over again.

The issue isn't around separate contracts, thats fine. It is if they take them over the salary cap.

They haven't been found guilty of being in breach of the salary cap yet though.

If they are found to be in breach, then they deserve what they get.

Sorry for the 3rd post, but there is another article in the Times today. Apparently the Times have been told that there was no direct financial link running from the club to WIM - i think this is what the salary cap manager has to try and prove - that it came from the club.

(it was non-cooperation that got Saracens relegated, rather than the breaches that were uncovered. Which makes you wonder just how bad the stuff they didn't want uncovered actually was...)

And that for me was why Saracens should not have been relegated - they should have just been suspended "sine die" until they opened the books.

Poorfour. wrote:
While the current squad and leadership aren't quite as implicated in this as Saracens' equivalents were, the squad has quite a lot of continuity from before Borthwick and Pinchen has been at the club in various roles since 2004, including as IIRC CFO before becoming CEO. It probably also helps that Tigers didn't win anything while they were in breach and seem to be co-operating with the investigation (it was non-cooperation that got Saracens relegated, rather than the breaches that were uncovered. Which makes you wonder just how bad the stuff they didn't want uncovered actually was...), but if they've had a serious breach of the cap then PRL won't have much option but to impose a fine and a points penalty - or Nigel Wray would be entirely justified in lawyering up all over again.

She was the commercial manager and chief operating officer before being CEO. She ran all the club bar the playing staff side in effect before taking the step up to running the whole shebang. Simon Cohen was the CEO before her a man with an interesting reputation.

The squad has had a huge overhaul in the last couple of seasons in Murphy and Borthwick era. The Tigers home grown have remained but virtually everyone else moved on.

nathan wrote:Sorry for the 3rd post, but there is another article in the Times today. Apparently the Times have been told that there was no direct financial link running from the club to WIM - i think this is what the salary cap manager has to try and prove - that it came from the club.

That latest Times article makes it sound increasingly like someone throwing s*** at the wall and hoping it sticks.

If cash came directly from the club and wasn't declared then Tigers will deserve every punishment they get. If there's no financial link between the club and WIM then it's a completely different matter to Itoje for instance where two Sarries directors invested directly. WIM isn't a vehicle to solely pay Tigers players either. It's used by Man Utd players as well for instance amongst others.

Hypothetically, if WIM entered into a contract with a Tigers sponsor to provide players for paid appearances, the sponsor paid WIM reasonable rates for said appearances and WIM then paid players for appearances they genuinely made that wouldn't be a breach of the cap. It would also be inline with what happens at every club. All players at all clubs with a high enough profile to earn additional income through image rights do so.

If however Tigers were themselves selecting which players made appearances, how much they were paid for those appearances and contributing to those payments as a means of paying salary outside the cap it would be a completely different scenario.

If there's no link between WIM and Tigers that doesn't sound like the case though?

Gabriel Ibitoye signs for Bristol.

Great to have him back in the Premiership. A big talent if it all clicks.

Did make it sound like they were struggling to link Tigers to the WIM company. It might well be that Tigers advised the use of Ashgates as they are a company with a reputation for helping sportspeople with efficient tax planning. I mean I can think of a lot of ways that would be very difficult for the cap manager to prove that would use a company like WIM in conjunction with sponsors in order to pay players. No idea if any have taken place mind.

king_carlos wrote:Gabriel Ibitoye signs for Bristol.

Great to have him back in the Premiership. A big talent if it all clicks.

Bags of potential and probably on significantly less than he went to France for. Pretty tough lesson for him to learn over there.

king_carlos wrote:

nathan wrote:Sorry for the 3rd post, but there is another article in the Times today. Apparently the Times have been told that there was no direct financial link running from the club to WIM - i think this is what the salary cap manager has to try and prove - that it came from the club.

That latest Times article makes it sound increasingly like someone throwing s*** at the wall and hoping it sticks.

If cash came directly from the club and wasn't declared then Tigers will deserve every punishment they get. If there's no financial link between the club and WIM then it's a completely different matter to Itoje for instance where two Sarries directors invested directly. WIM isn't a vehicle to solely pay Tigers players either. It's used by Man Utd players as well for instance amongst others.

Hypothetically, if WIM entered into a contract with a Tigers sponsor to provide players for paid appearances, the sponsor paid WIM reasonable rates for said appearances and WIM then paid players for appearances they genuinely made that wouldn't be a breach of the cap. It would also be inline with what happens at every club. All players at all clubs with a high enough profile to earn additional income through image rights do so.

If however Tigers were themselves selecting which players made appearances, how much they were paid for those appearances and contributing to those payments as a means of paying salary outside the cap it would be a completely different scenario.

If there's no link between WIM and Tigers that doesn't sound like the case though?

That's not quite how it works, if I have read things correctly. What matters is not whether there's a financial link between the two firms, but whether the players got their contracts with WIM directly as a result of being employed by Tigers. And the way the cap rules are written, the SCM is given a lot of latitude to decide what is and isn't related. For instance, if all of Tigers' high paid overseas players in a given period also got contracts with WIM (and very few others did), that might be enough to decide that the rules were broken - especially if there is someone who's willing to blow the whistle on how players were put in touch with WIM. It only takes one disgruntled player or agent with the right set of notes to make a very strong case, but even circumstantial evidence might be enough.