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Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports

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Post by bsando Thu 11 Mar 2021, 6:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

Pro 16 needs to pull the plug on Premier Sports - Page 3 Error_10

If the Pro 16 wants to compete with the likes of the other top leagues in Europe and further abroad, they need to part ways with Premier Sports. The current Premier Sports contract with the Pro 14 finishes at the end of this season it still remains to be seen if this will be renewed or another broadcaster will takeover the rights.

Many fans have voiced their dislike of the online platform which after several seasons appears to be stable via Sky or Virgin sports packages but less so as an outright online viewing package. Coupled with annoying multiple login requirements to swap from devices and random lost connection error codes before, during and even when trying to watch on demand matches, it would be a real shame to see the new Pro 16 format begin in this manner.

Do you feel the upcoming Pro 16 competition would be a good addition to BT Sports or Sky Sports or even one of the streaming platforms like Amazon Prime?

Would it be better for a return to the domestic networks in a similar format as before?

Could CVC play a part in this decision with their recent investment in the Pro 14 league and 6N?

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 16 Mar 2021, 12:25 pm

Oakdene wrote:I think the problem is that it's not like 15 years ago when you paid £xx a month for all of Sky Sports Packages. I have the Sky Sports Premier League channel for my boy, I pay something like £12 a month for it but that doesn't give me access to any other Sky Sports channels, aside from the free one & Sky Sports News.

£12 a month !!!! Thats a steal, so, how much more would you be expected to pay for any extras ? I pay for the whole lot, every channel you can have.

I know you can cherry pick your sports channels, I have just checked, and you can get ALL sky sports channels, thats everything, the cricket, golf, F1, Football, and the other channels that show all the other stuff for, wait for it........ £25 a month, which is a lot cheaper than the £10 a week you have to pay for Premier Sports.

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Post by RiscaGame Tue 16 Mar 2021, 12:29 pm

£10 a month.

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Post by Oakdene Tue 16 Mar 2021, 12:38 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Oakdene wrote:I think the problem is that it's not like 15 years ago when you paid £xx a month for all of Sky Sports Packages. I have the Sky Sports Premier League channel for my boy, I pay something like £12 a month for it but that doesn't give me access to any other Sky Sports channels, aside from the free one & Sky Sports News.

£12 a month !!!! Thats a steal, so, how much more would you be expected to pay for any extras ? I pay for the whole lot, every channel you can have.

I know you can cherry pick your sports channels, I have just checked, and you can get ALL sky sports channels, thats everything, the cricket, golf, F1, Football, and the other channels that show all the other stuff for, wait for it........ £25 a month, which is a lot cheaper than the £10 a week you have to pay for Premier Sports.

It's £10 a month for premier not a week!!

I managed to get them on a deal but it means I can cancel at any time, giving 30 days notice.


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Post by Brendan Tue 16 Mar 2021, 12:43 pm

LordDowlais wrote:

The regions are not the issue.

It's the league, thats the problem, if we want it to thrive, and potentially match other leagues, then we need the biggest fanbase we can get our hands on. PS will not help us achieve that, as not enough people are subscribing to it.

Problem with that line of thinking is that the Regions are a part of the league so if the Regions are doing well then so is the league.

If the Regions are only doing well because of European Rugby then that would be untrue as it is harder to watch Welsh teams in Europe then in the league on TV and even when English teams show up attendances don't change much.

The league is not all the other teams in the league excluding the Regions.
The refs are all the refs not just the non Welsh refs.
Even games with Welsh teams and refs still are part of the league and still get mentioned in derby games.

What would make you say the Regions aren't thriving because of being part of the league.  It's there bread a butter and makes them who they are.  If the league has no influence on them thriving then what does it matter about where the league is shown in Wales or even what league they are part of.

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Post by Brendan Tue 16 Mar 2021, 12:46 pm

Also while it is nice to run the league down let's remind ourselves of the TV situation in the leftovers of Super Rugby where in Europe and North America they have struggled to get deals.

The fact sky want sole rights says this is a great league with a bright future.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 16 Mar 2021, 12:59 pm

Brendan wrote:Problem with that line of thinking is that the Regions are a part of the league so if the Regions are doing well then so is the league.

What has that got to do with how many people are watching it ? I'm sorry but I do not buy into what you are saying.

The fact that PS is not a mainstream provider will hold the league back, we need better if we want to compete with other leagues.

Brendan wrote:If the Regions are only doing well because of European Rugby then that would be untrue as it is harder to watch Welsh teams in Europe then in the league on TV and even when English teams show up attendances don't change much.

I'm very sorry, but I cannot fathom how you have come to this end by interpreting what I have written, but I have not mentioned Europe, so apologise if you have come to this through what I have said.

Brendan wrote:The league is not all the other teams in the league excluding the Regions.
The refs are all the refs not just the non Welsh refs.
Even games with Welsh teams and refs still are part of the league and still get mentioned in derby games.

Again, I'm sorry, but I do not know what this is. So you will have to forgive me if I am at a bemusement. OK

Brendan wrote:What would make you say the Regions aren't thriving because of being part of the league. It's there bread a butter and makes them who they are. If the league has no influence on them thriving then what does it matter about where the league is shown in Wales or even what league they are part of.

Please can you show me where I have said the regions aren't thriving because of the league ? I have said the regions are not the problem. Again, I am at a loss with this comment.

It looks like you are trying to manufacture an argument here. Erm

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 16 Mar 2021, 1:01 pm

Oakdene wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Oakdene wrote:I think the problem is that it's not like 15 years ago when you paid £xx a month for all of Sky Sports Packages. I have the Sky Sports Premier League channel for my boy, I pay something like £12 a month for it but that doesn't give me access to any other Sky Sports channels, aside from the free one & Sky Sports News.

£12 a month !!!! Thats a steal, so, how much more would you be expected to pay for any extras ? I pay for the whole lot, every channel you can have.

I know you can cherry pick your sports channels, I have just checked, and you can get ALL sky sports channels, thats everything, the cricket, golf, F1, Football, and the other channels that show all the other stuff for, wait for it........ £25 a month, which is a lot cheaper than the £10 a week you have to pay for Premier Sports.

It's £10 a month for premier not a week!!

I managed to get them on a deal but it means I can cancel at any time, giving 30 days notice.


Ah sorry, I have the wrong end of the stick with the costs then. OK

So, if you want everything it will cost an extra £15 a month, but you probably can cherry pick your channels, so if the football is only £12 a month, then the other channels would not be much more a month surely ?


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Post by Oakdene Tue 16 Mar 2021, 1:15 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Oakdene wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Oakdene wrote:I think the problem is that it's not like 15 years ago when you paid £xx a month for all of Sky Sports Packages. I have the Sky Sports Premier League channel for my boy, I pay something like £12 a month for it but that doesn't give me access to any other Sky Sports channels, aside from the free one & Sky Sports News.

£12 a month !!!! Thats a steal, so, how much more would you be expected to pay for any extras ? I pay for the whole lot, every channel you can have.

I know you can cherry pick your sports channels, I have just checked, and you can get ALL sky sports channels, thats everything, the cricket, golf, F1, Football, and the other channels that show all the other stuff for, wait for it........ £25 a month, which is a lot cheaper than the £10 a week you have to pay for Premier Sports.

It's £10 a month for premier not a week!!

I managed to get them on a deal but it means I can cancel at any time, giving 30 days notice.


Ah sorry, I have the wrong end of the stick with the costs then. OK

So, if you want everything it will cost an extra £15 a month, but you probably can cherry pick your channels, so if the football is only £12 a month, then the other channels would not be much more a month surely ?


It all depends if they make a dedicated Rugby channel available or whether they do it over 2 or 3 channels like they used to do.

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Post by mikey_dragon Tue 16 Mar 2021, 2:34 pm

Pretty sure PS was £70-80 for the year, so less than a tenner. It was posted on here at the time so we went and subscribed.

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Post by geoff999rugby Tue 16 Mar 2021, 2:43 pm

Premier Sports cost me £90 a year - don't need it for June, July or August

On Virgin Sky Sports cost £32 a month
On BT is cost an extra £25 a month - no cherry picking

So for BT an extra £15 a month, for Virgin an extra £22 a month.
As I say a lot of people will not pay that.

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Post by Oakdene Tue 16 Mar 2021, 3:10 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Premier Sports cost me £90 a year - don't need it for June, July or August

On Virgin Sky Sports cost £32 a month
On BT is cost an extra £25 a month - no cherry picking

So for BT an extra £15 a month, for Virgin  an extra £22 a month.
As I say a lot of people will not pay that.  

I think, & speaking from as a current player in a lower league Welsh side, a lot of the rugby clubs (& pubs for that matter) had BT Sport &/or Sky Sports before Premier Sports came along so they couldn't necessarily afford another sports channel. If the Pro 16 moves to BT or Sky it will mean that some supporters will venture out to said rugby club & they can watch it there which is only a good thing for the income of the rugby club.

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Post by Brendan Tue 16 Mar 2021, 3:52 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Brendan wrote:Problem with that line of thinking is that the Regions are a part of the league so if the Regions are doing well then so is the league.

What has that got to do with how many people are watching it ? I'm sorry but I do not buy into what you are saying.

The fact that PS is not a mainstream provider will hold the league back, we need better if we want to compete with other leagues.

Brendan wrote:If the Regions are only doing well because of European Rugby then that would be untrue as it is harder to watch Welsh teams in Europe then in the league on TV and even when English teams show up attendances don't change much.

I'm very sorry, but I cannot fathom how you have come to this end by interpreting what I have written, but I have not mentioned Europe, so apologise if you have come to this through what I have said.

Brendan wrote:The league is not all the other teams in the league excluding the Regions.
The refs are all the refs not just the non Welsh refs.
Even games with Welsh teams and refs still are part of the league and still get mentioned in derby games.

Again, I'm sorry, but I do not know what this is. So you will have to forgive me if I am at a bemusement. OK

Brendan wrote:What would make you say the Regions aren't thriving because of being part of the league.  It's there bread a butter and makes them who they are.  If the league has no influence on them thriving then what does it matter about where the league is shown in Wales or even what league they are part of.

Please can you show me where I have said the regions aren't thriving because of the league ? I have said the regions are not the problem. Again, I am at a loss with this comment.

It looks like you are trying to manufacture an argument here. Erm

How the league is perceived is down to how you view the Regions.  If a person only liked to support a Welsh Premiership team like say Merthyr and only liked them and their world revolved around that team then they wouldn't care about the Regions and thus not care about the league.

The team you support determines what how much you care about a league.  Ask SA people what they think of Super Rugby AU/A now they aren't part of it.  I bet most of them care alot more about the Pro16 now their teams will be in it.

So how the league is viewed in Wales is down to the Regions not the league itself.  The Regions are growing support compared to the other clubs in Wales so are triving compared to the rest of Welsh Rugby.

Any way you look at it Sky wanting to take over the Pro14 but didn't want the Premership says that they see better value in the league.

If you look at the Premership TV deals.  The gap between them and the Pro14 is getting smaller while the T14 is getting further away.  Unlike the 152 games that a viewer of premier sports gets you get 69 games with BT which would do alot less for bring in new fans.
Of the FTA games Channel 5 will show 5 games per season of the Premership. SC4 alone show 17 live matches of the Pro14.  So if we go with sky and they follow the BT model there will be less games on both platforms thus reducing the footprint on the league in Wales.  Sky last time would only join up to the league if the got the Munster v Leinster games.

Any Sky deal will focus heavily around showing the 4 SA teams and the 3 Big Irish teams (who are clearly better then the rest of the league with 1 loss to the rest of the league between them). Glasgow, Scarlets, Ospreys and probably Edinburgh will get a few games. Everyone else enjoy getting tanked in your 2 TV games with all the focus on the other team. Can't see how that is good for Welsh Rugby.

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 16 Mar 2021, 4:18 pm

OK. OK

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Post by Old Man Tue 16 Mar 2021, 8:18 pm

The SA Super Rugby sides are being depleted of their top players, due to the economic strife of rugby in SA top players continue to leave in droves.

By the time the Pro16 comes around we might not have strong teams anymore.

Looking at the warm up matches currently being played there are not many household names playing in these matches.

Pieter Steph du Toit is rumoured to be off to Japan, the Bulls are likely to lose their halfback pairing, it isn’t getting any better

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Tue 16 Mar 2021, 8:57 pm

Old Man wrote:The SA Super Rugby sides are being depleted of their top players, due to the economic strife of rugby in SA top players continue to leave in droves.

By the time the Pro16 comes around we might not have strong teams anymore.

Looking at the warm up matches currently being played there are not many household names playing in these matches.

Pieter Steph du Toit is rumoured to be off to Japan, the Bulls are likely to lose their halfback pairing, it isn’t getting any better
I thought the Bulls were taken over and were receiving significant investment?

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Post by Cyril Tue 16 Mar 2021, 11:50 pm

If de Toit (at 28 and reaching his prime) is off to Japan this is a major problem for SA. Can they not afford to keep their very best players?

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Post by Old Man Wed 17 Mar 2021, 6:19 am

The weak currency makes it impossible to compete.

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Post by geoff999rugby Wed 17 Mar 2021, 9:37 am

Its not as straight forward as that.
Coetzee is going to the Bulls and it is my understand Ulster were unable to match the salary Bulls were offering.
Are Bulls the exception?

Also I would be confident Ulster are not alone in not looking to sign any SH based players this year, even those IQ.
Covid has reduced the budget of most NH teams

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Post by Old Man Wed 17 Mar 2021, 10:05 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Its not as straight forward as that.
Coetzee is going to the Bulls and it is my understand Ulster were unable to match the salary Bulls were offering.
Are Bulls the exception?

Also I would be confident Ulster are not alone in not looking to sign any SH based players this year, even those IQ.
Covid has reduced the budget of most NH teams

Bulls and Sharks have private equity.

MVM is an american consortium who just bought the controlling share of the Sharks’ commercial arm.

Two South African billionaires have thrown money at the Bulls. But even with that, they are set to lose their halfbacks both moving to the Premiership

Stormers are in deep strife, Lions surviving.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 17 Mar 2021, 10:07 am

Old Man wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Its not as straight forward as that.
Coetzee is going to the Bulls and it is my understand Ulster were unable to match the salary Bulls were offering.
Are Bulls the exception?

Also I would be confident Ulster are not alone in not looking to sign any SH based players this year, even those IQ.
Covid has reduced the budget of most NH teams

Bulls and Sharks have private equity.

MVM is an american consortium who just bought the controlling share of the Sharks’ commercial arm.

Two South African billionaires have thrown money at the Bulls.

Stormers are in deep strife, Lions surviving.


Do you think joining the Pro14/16 will be a good thing for your fanchises old man ?

It will be good for the league, no doubt. I am looking forward to seeing them.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 17 Mar 2021, 10:19 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Old Man wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Its not as straight forward as that.
Coetzee is going to the Bulls and it is my understand Ulster were unable to match the salary Bulls were offering.
Are Bulls the exception?

Also I would be confident Ulster are not alone in not looking to sign any SH based players this year, even those IQ.
Covid has reduced the budget of most NH teams

Bulls and Sharks have private equity.

MVM is an american consortium who just bought the controlling share of the Sharks’ commercial arm.

Two South African billionaires have thrown money at the Bulls.

Stormers are in deep strife, Lions surviving.


Do you think joining the Pro14/16 will be a good thing for your fanchises old man ?

It will be good for the league, no doubt. I am looking forward to seeing them.

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Post by Old Man Wed 17 Mar 2021, 11:18 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Old Man wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Its not as straight forward as that.
Coetzee is going to the Bulls and it is my understand Ulster were unable to match the salary Bulls were offering.
Are Bulls the exception?

Also I would be confident Ulster are not alone in not looking to sign any SH based players this year, even those IQ.
Covid has reduced the budget of most NH teams

Bulls and Sharks have private equity.

MVM is an american consortium who just bought the controlling share of the Sharks’ commercial arm.

Two South African billionaires have thrown money at the Bulls.

Stormers are in deep strife, Lions surviving.


Do you think joining the Pro14/16 will be a good thing for your fanchises old man ?

It will be good for the league, no doubt. I am looking forward to seeing them.

It should eventually be good for us if the revenue increases significantly for our teams. Then player retention should be easier.

However a survey done amongst local players suggested 90% of them want to play for overseas clubs, the unknown is how much of the motivation is down to the socio political climate and how much weight salaries are outweighed by that.

Talking to many of my clients they are starting to lose faith in the country, so perhaps that is the biggest motivating factor to just get out.

What is telling though, the top SA players retiring or close to retirement has all come back to SA, Frans Steyn, Pienaar, Vermeulen etc.

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Post by Kingshu Wed 17 Mar 2021, 11:31 am

The HCup is the most lucrative Club competition in the world.
The money generated by the Pro 16 will be more per team than was generated by super rugby (afterall pro 14 teams can afford to entice SA players) may be down to the €£, but the SA teams will be getting a share in this.

I think the SA teams are losing players now, but give it a season or two in Pro 16 and with HCup they will be able to reverse the trend.

On that most unions keep the HCup money and share it beween all its teams, will SA do the same or will just the teams that qualify get the HCup money? If its just the teams get it i can see there being richer and poorer SA sides.

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Post by PhilBB Wed 17 Mar 2021, 11:49 am

Brendan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

The regions are not the issue.

It's the league, thats the problem, if we want it to thrive, and potentially match other leagues, then we need the biggest fanbase we can get our hands on. PS will not help us achieve that, as not enough people are subscribing to it.

Problem with that line of thinking is that the Regions are a part of the league so if the Regions are doing well then so is the league.

If the Regions are only doing well because of European Rugby then that would be untrue as it is harder to watch Welsh teams in Europe then in the league on TV and even when English teams show up attendances don't change much.

The league is not all the other teams in the league excluding the Regions.
The refs are all the refs not just the non Welsh refs.
Even games with Welsh teams and refs still are part of the league and still get mentioned in derby games.

What would make you say the Regions aren't thriving because of being part of the league.  It's there bread a butter and makes them who they are.  If the league has no influence on them thriving then what does it matter about where the league is shown in Wales or even what league they are part of.

The PrO'Crap is the problem as it is not the product the Welsh market place wants and it is not the product that best serves the Welsh market place and it doesn't generate sufficient income or interest.

You don't put a Harrods in Rhyl etc.
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Post by PhilBB Wed 17 Mar 2021, 11:50 am

Kingshu wrote:The HCup is the most lucrative Club competition in the world.

That's not true.

The T14 makes far more money for its participants than do the EPCR tournaments.
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Post by geoff999rugby Wed 17 Mar 2021, 12:01 pm

I get the Pro14 is not what Welsh rugby want but at some point they have to realise it is the only show in town for the foreseeable future.

The English have their set up and do not see the value of aligning themselves with Wales, so there really is nowhere to go.
Given that England will not allow Welsh teams into the Premiership what do welsh fans see as the best way forward for Welsh rugby.

A British and Irish league perhaps?

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Post by PhilBB Wed 17 Mar 2021, 12:12 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:I get the Pro14 is not what Welsh rugby want but at some point they have to realise it is the only show in town for the foreseeable future.

The English have their set up and do not see the value of aligning themselves with Wales, so there really is nowhere to go.
Given that England will not allow Welsh teams into the Premiership what do welsh fans see as the best way forward for Welsh rugby.

A British and Irish league perhaps?

I can't see how a B&I league is possible under the ownership model operated by the IRFU and SRU.

At some point, Welsh rugby will realise that it's drinking at the last chance saloon. This next TV deal is its last chance. If it doesn't lead to a CVC driven competition with the English, Welsh professional rugby will continue to contract.

The immediate hope offered by Muderack is an AW u23 league for next season to be played during international windows (supposedly the PrO'Whatever won't be played on International window weekends). Jones/Williams, Muderack, Buttress and the new backers of the Ospreys all have put their faith in CVC streamlining things for a better competition format.

There's a huge opportunity to align the TV deals with the BT Sport term and then see what happens. English rugby has too few teams for two divisions of professional rugby so it will be interesting to see what CVC want and what they can deliver in the next three years.
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Post by Brendan Thu 18 Mar 2021, 12:30 am

PhilBB wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:I get the Pro14 is not what Welsh rugby want but at some point they have to realise it is the only show in town for the foreseeable future.

The English have their set up and do not see the value of aligning themselves with Wales, so there really is nowhere to go.
Given that England will not allow Welsh teams into the Premiership what do welsh fans see as the best way forward for Welsh rugby.

A British and Irish league perhaps?

I can't see how a B&I league is possible under the ownership model operated by the IRFU and SRU.

At some point, Welsh rugby will realise that it's drinking at the last chance saloon. This next TV deal is its last chance. If it doesn't lead to a CVC driven competition with the English, Welsh professional rugby will continue to contract.

The immediate hope offered by Muderack is an AW u23 league for next season to be played during international windows (supposedly the PrO'Whatever won't be played on International window weekends). Jones/Williams, Muderack, Buttress and the new backers of the Ospreys all have put their faith in CVC streamlining things for a better competition format.

There's a huge opportunity to align the TV deals with the BT Sport term and then see what happens. English rugby has too few teams for two divisions of professional rugby so it will be interesting to see what CVC want and what they can deliver in the next three years.

So the Premership who are looking to ringfence and maybe bring in Ealing for a rumoured £20m are just at some point in the future going to give the 4 Welsh teams the same deal for free. Which Welsh team can pay the admission fee.

Professional rugby is contracting in England  They have effectively gone from about 20 professional clubs down to what will soon be 14.  They are no longer able to keep up with the French and will have a salary cap that is reduced which most the top Pro12 teams will be at so why would players leave.  Add in the T14 TV deal and the premiership becomes a feeder like the Pro16 but won't have the Union control to convince players to stay outside of the 60 or so who are in with a shout of international honours. How many of the Exeter boys will wait and hope Jones picks them.

Can't see the RFU sanctioning/funding an AW cup/league for u23s after what has happened with the championships.  You are more likely to see some combined A-league/championship format if any change was to happen.

Also lets remember how the AW cup became the Premership Cup.  The Welsh pulled out.  Can't see the Premership being happy about that.  Also the current Premiership TV deal includes the cup so nothing will happen until after that.

Ask NZ how many people care about a domestic league of 5 teams and how much less the TV deals are.

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Post by Kingshu Thu 18 Mar 2021, 1:33 am

PhilBB wrote:
Kingshu wrote:The HCup is the most lucrative Club competition in the world.

That's not true.

The T14 makes far more money for its participants than do the EPCR tournaments.

It may do, how much does it make each team on average per game compared to HCup?

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Post by Brendan Thu 18 Mar 2021, 1:52 am

PhilBB wrote:
Brendan wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:

The regions are not the issue.

It's the league, thats the problem, if we want it to thrive, and potentially match other leagues, then we need the biggest fanbase we can get our hands on. PS will not help us achieve that, as not enough people are subscribing to it.

Problem with that line of thinking is that the Regions are a part of the league so if the Regions are doing well then so is the league.

If the Regions are only doing well because of European Rugby then that would be untrue as it is harder to watch Welsh teams in Europe then in the league on TV and even when English teams show up attendances don't change much.

The league is not all the other teams in the league excluding the Regions.
The refs are all the refs not just the non Welsh refs.
Even games with Welsh teams and refs still are part of the league and still get mentioned in derby games.

What would make you say the Regions aren't thriving because of being part of the league.  It's there bread a butter and makes them who they are.  If the league has no influence on them thriving then what does it matter about where the league is shown in Wales or even what league they are part of.

The PrO'Crap is the problem as it is not the product the Welsh market place wants and it is not the product that best serves the Welsh market place and it doesn't generate sufficient income or interest.

You don't put a Harrods in Rhyl etc.

If you think the Regions are Harrods and the league is Rhyl you clearly have an overstated view of the Regions or/and a very underrated view on the league.

The Regions have done very little to knock down the door in the league.  The Scots had a terrible year yet look like Glasgow will get 3rd and Edinburgh may also take 3rd or 4th.  They are fighting it out with Connacht to be relevant with the Irish teams.

Also why is the Premership a better league for the Welsh. Due to the cap their teams aren't going to get better.  Sarries and Exeter have had a two horse race for the last few years.  The Welsh would have to scrap their 60cap rule as effectively they are taking players from Premership clubs at lower wages because the players want caps.  Not sure the rivalry is what it was as per the below the Welsh might see the English as rivals but the English don't see it the other way. (Or it could be that the Welsh just don't go to away gamed)

19/20 Euro Cup Ospreys and Munster in same group.
Sarries at home 8.5k v Munster, 7.5k v Ospreys
Ospreys at home 7.2k v Munster,  7k v Sarries

18/19 Ulster and Scarlets paired. Glasgow and Blues paired
Tigers at home 20k v Ulster, 18.8k v Scarlets
Scarlets at home 7.4k v Ulster, 8k v Tigers
Sarries at home 10k v Glasgow, 8.5k v Blues
Blues at home couldnt find but aroud 8k v Glasgow, 12k v Sarries

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Post by The Oracle Thu 18 Mar 2021, 9:41 am

I think he's saying you don't put a Harrods in Rhyl as there is no market for it.
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Post by doctor_grey Thu 18 Mar 2021, 10:28 am

geoff999rugby wrote:I get the Pro14 is not what Welsh rugby want but at some point they have to realise it is the only show in town for the foreseeable future.

The English have their set up and do not see the value of aligning themselves with Wales, so there really is nowhere to go.
Given that England will not allow Welsh teams into the Premiership what do welsh fans see as the best way forward for Welsh rugby.

A British and Irish league perhaps?
I know I am in a minority, but I think a B&I league is going to happen some time in the future.  And it will come down to money.  The more matches between the big clubs will drive awareness and attendance.  And I think that in turn trickles down to the other clubs.   And I also think including the SA teams will only make this even bigger and better.  Given the tv revenue would be pooled, using the NFL tv model, the SA teams could receive their revenue in Euro or Pounds which will significantly help their budgets.  

With my regular on-going email dialogue with ESPN and so on regarding tv rights for North America, they see the Pro14/16 as a complicated league to deal with due to different rights in different nations.  Importantly, however, they see the league as a priority and still show every match on their streaming platform and usually one game per weekend on one of their cable tv channels.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 10:43 am

Brendan wrote:
So the Premership who are looking to ringfence and maybe bring in Ealing for a rumoured £20m are just at some point in the future going to give the 4 Welsh teams the same deal for free.  Which Welsh team can pay the admission fee.

Professional rugby is contracting in England  They have effectively gone from about 20 professional clubs down to what will soon be 14.  They are no longer able to keep up with the French and will have a salary cap that is reduced which most the top Pro12 teams will be at so why would players leave.  Add in the T14 TV deal and the premiership becomes a feeder like the Pro16 but won't have the Union control to convince players to stay outside of the 60 or so who are in with a shout of international honours. How many of the Exeter boys will wait and hope Jones picks them.

Can't see the RFU sanctioning/funding an AW cup/league for u23s after what has happened with the championships.  You are more likely to see some combined A-league/championship format if any change was to happen.

Also lets remember how the AW cup became the Premership Cup.  The Welsh pulled out.  Can't see the Premership being happy about that.  Also the current Premiership TV deal includes the cup so nothing will happen until after that.

Ask NZ how many people care about a domestic league of 5 teams and how much less the TV deals are.

a) Nobody mentioned 'for free'
b) Players who don't play in England can't play for England, so you've got that wrong.
c) You may be surprised about the u23s, especially as I don't think it is for the RFU to 'sanction' in the first place. It's a PRL competition.
d) The AW Cup became the Premiership Cup, true. If you look back to the history of that it starts with the IRFU and SRU throwing the WRU out of the Celtic League. The Premiership Cup, of course, isn't being played this season, TV deal or not, so that casts further doubt on your expertise in this issue.
e) Nobody is suggesting a domestic league of 5 teams, so why did you write that?

All in all, 6 pieces of complete nonsense from you.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 10:49 am

Kingshu wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Kingshu wrote:The HCup is the most lucrative Club competition in the world.

That's not true.

The T14 makes far more money for its participants than do the EPCR tournaments.

It may do, how much does it make each team on average per game compared to HCup?

Page 107 of the DNACG report for season 2018/19 shows the French domestic TV deal was worth €51.2m whilst the European Cup money was worth €13.1m

It's not even close
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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 10:52 am

Brendan wrote:

If you think the Regions are Harrods and the league is Rhyl you clearly have an overstated view of the Regions or/and a very underrated view on the league.

The Regions have done very little to knock down the door in the league.  The Scots had a terrible year yet look like Glasgow will get 3rd and Edinburgh may also take 3rd or 4th.  They are fighting it out with Connacht to be relevant with the Irish teams.

Also why is the Premership a better league for the Welsh. Due to the cap their teams aren't going to get better.  Sarries and Exeter have had a two horse race for the last few years.  The Welsh would have to scrap their 60cap rule as effectively they are taking players from Premership clubs at lower wages because the players want caps.  Not sure the rivalry is what it was as per the below the Welsh might see the English as rivals but the English don't see it the other way. (Or it could be that the Welsh just don't go to away gamed)

19/20 Euro Cup Ospreys and Munster in same group.
Sarries at home 8.5k v Munster, 7.5k v Ospreys
Ospreys at home 7.2k v Munster,  7k v Sarries

18/19 Ulster and Scarlets paired. Glasgow and Blues paired
Tigers at home 20k v Ulster, 18.8k v Scarlets
Scarlets at home 7.4k v Ulster, 8k v Tigers
Sarries at home 10k v Glasgow, 8.5k v Blues
Blues at home couldnt find but aroud 8k v Glasgow, 12k v Sarries

The Harrods analogy was to show what the local market place can support, deliver and demand. That's all.

The Premiership is a better league for the Welsh as it will generate more income. Your idea that players in Wales would earn lower wages than in England isn't born out by any kind of fact.

I don't know what figures you're pulling out there, sorry. I don't know why you're showing English crowds at English grounds - without context - when the point is what the Welsh market place wants. I'm not sure you're following the point, you know.
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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 10:53 am

doctor_grey wrote:
I know I am in a minority, but I think a B&I league is going to happen some time in the future.  And it will come down to money.  The more matches between the big clubs will drive awareness and attendance.  And I think that in turn trickles down to the other clubs.   And I also think including the SA teams will only make this even bigger and better.  Given the tv revenue would be pooled, using the NFL tv model, the SA teams could receive their revenue in Euro or Pounds which will significantly help their budgets.  

With my regular on-going email dialogue with ESPN and so on regarding tv rights for North America, they see the Pro14/16 as a complicated league to deal with due to different rights in different nations.  Importantly, however, they see the league as a priority and still show every match on their streaming platform and usually one game per weekend on one of their cable tv channels.

How will you get to a B&I League with the ownership model and opaque finances in Scotland and Ireland?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 11:04 am

PhilBB wrote:
Brendan wrote:

If you think the Regions are Harrods and the league is Rhyl you clearly have an overstated view of the Regions or/and a very underrated view on the league.

The Regions have done very little to knock down the door in the league.  The Scots had a terrible year yet look like Glasgow will get 3rd and Edinburgh may also take 3rd or 4th.  They are fighting it out with Connacht to be relevant with the Irish teams.

Also why is the Premership a better league for the Welsh. Due to the cap their teams aren't going to get better.  Sarries and Exeter have had a two horse race for the last few years.  The Welsh would have to scrap their 60cap rule as effectively they are taking players from Premership clubs at lower wages because the players want caps.  Not sure the rivalry is what it was as per the below the Welsh might see the English as rivals but the English don't see it the other way. (Or it could be that the Welsh just don't go to away gamed)

19/20 Euro Cup Ospreys and Munster in same group.
Sarries at home 8.5k v Munster, 7.5k v Ospreys
Ospreys at home 7.2k v Munster,  7k v Sarries

18/19 Ulster and Scarlets paired. Glasgow and Blues paired
Tigers at home 20k v Ulster, 18.8k v Scarlets
Scarlets at home 7.4k v Ulster, 8k v Tigers
Sarries at home 10k v Glasgow, 8.5k v Blues
Blues at home couldnt find but aroud 8k v Glasgow, 12k v Sarries

The Harrods analogy was to show what the local market place can support, deliver and demand. That's all.

The Premiership is a better league for the Welsh as it will generate more income. Your idea that players in Wales would earn lower wages than in England isn't born out by any kind of fact.

I don't know what figures you're pulling out there, sorry. I don't know why you're showing English crowds at English grounds - without context - when the point is what the Welsh market place wants. I'm not sure you're following the point, you know.

The Welsh want it. The English less so seemingly.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 11:05 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Welsh want it. The English less so seemingly.

At this stage, yes. "less so" is a good way to put it.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 11:07 am

Why not just support an English team Phil. You'd be happier longer term.

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Post by PhilBB Thu 18 Mar 2021, 11:11 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why not just support an English team Phil. You'd be happier longer term.

Good advice, I'll consider it. Do you support Doncaster? I'm just wondering on the threshold of what constitutes 'support'

In the meantime, it's interesting that Sky are looking to get the PrO'Garbage. I'm hoping Amazon get it instead.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 11:16 am

Support is too much of a word. Always been one to support the club where you grew up which would be Middlesbrough for me. By the time I got to liking rugby however I was an adult and had moved to Donny. I go but it feels too much like the plastic fans of Man U to me to say they're 'my team'.

Amazon feeds are a bit blurry for me so not a provider I like on the whole.

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Post by Brendan Thu 18 Mar 2021, 12:46 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
Brendan wrote:

If you think the Regions are Harrods and the league is Rhyl you clearly have an overstated view of the Regions or/and a very underrated view on the league.

The Regions have done very little to knock down the door in the league.  The Scots had a terrible year yet look like Glasgow will get 3rd and Edinburgh may also take 3rd or 4th.  They are fighting it out with Connacht to be relevant with the Irish teams.

Also why is the Premership a better league for the Welsh. Due to the cap their teams aren't going to get better.  Sarries and Exeter have had a two horse race for the last few years.  The Welsh would have to scrap their 60cap rule as effectively they are taking players from Premership clubs at lower wages because the players want caps.  Not sure the rivalry is what it was as per the below the Welsh might see the English as rivals but the English don't see it the other way. (Or it could be that the Welsh just don't go to away gamed)

19/20 Euro Cup Ospreys and Munster in same group.
Sarries at home 8.5k v Munster, 7.5k v Ospreys
Ospreys at home 7.2k v Munster,  7k v Sarries

18/19 Ulster and Scarlets paired. Glasgow and Blues paired
Tigers at home 20k v Ulster, 18.8k v Scarlets
Scarlets at home 7.4k v Ulster, 8k v Tigers
Sarries at home 10k v Glasgow, 8.5k v Blues
Blues at home couldnt find but aroud 8k v Glasgow, 12k v Sarries

The Harrods analogy was to show what the local market place can support, deliver and demand. That's all.

The Premiership is a better league for the Welsh as it will generate more income. Your idea that players in Wales would earn lower wages than in England isn't born out by any kind of fact.

I don't know what figures you're pulling out there, sorry. I don't know why you're showing English crowds at English grounds - without context - when the point is what the Welsh market place wants. I'm not sure you're following the point, you know.

The Welsh want it. The English less so seemingly.

Thanks 7.5, the point seemed to go over others heads. If the English teams get higher attendances for Ulster and Glasgow over Scarlets and Blues it would imply that English fans don't see Welsh teams as having value for them.

If the English fans don't want to show up more for a Welsh team over and Irish or Scottish team for a one in a few years chance then why would they show up every year for that Welsh team.

The other view of the higher attendances would be that the same number of home fans showed up and the difference was actually away fans that would be more worrying because not alot of away fans travel in the Pro14. You would think that for Scot and Welsh fans, that euro games against English teams would be a game they would look to go too. If Wales don't have many travelling fans then what value do they bring to home teams.

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Post by LordDowlais Thu 18 Mar 2021, 12:49 pm

Brendan, what you are not taking into account though, is there is a lot of history between the Welsh and English clubs from the old merit table days, which still holds a bit of a pulling power between the two.

But just for the record, I am not all up for an Anglo/Welsh league. I would rather we try and make a fist of the Pro14. But it needs massive work.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 12:56 pm

It always comes back to how would this benefit the English clubs? To give the Welsh a way in the money is clearly the major driver. Would they be able to make more when there would be more teams to share it amongst? Unlikely.
Would the prl want to dilute their power over the league? Unlikely.
Would the clubs want to risk the increased likelihood of finding themselves in the 2nd tier? Unlikely.

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Post by The Oracle Thu 18 Mar 2021, 1:01 pm

No-one is saying the English will go for it. Phil, and others previously, are merely stating what would work best for the Welsh teams.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 1:03 pm

Grass is always greener.

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Post by The Oracle Thu 18 Mar 2021, 1:08 pm

But also it seems logical that sport would work best with those on your doorstep rather than than those much further away.  I'm not for it as I know the English won't go for it (currently).  But it's hard to argue from a Welsh point of view that it doesn't make more sense, if we do have to play pro rugby with teams from another nation, to do so with the English.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 1:11 pm

Depends what you want really Oracle and that will obviously differ form person to person. Generally in cases like this (and yes generalities won't tick every box) the grumbles tend to get noisier when teams aren't doing as well. The Irish and Leinster tend to dominate and the Welsh struggle, its natural to look sideways and think it could be better with more money over there. A couple of ears being dominated by the likes of Bristol, Wasps, Exeter and Saracens could mean the grumbles don't go away.

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Post by The Oracle Thu 18 Mar 2021, 1:26 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Depends what you want really Oracle and that will obviously differ form person to person. Generally in cases like this (and yes generalities won't tick every box) the grumbles tend to get noisier when teams aren't doing as well. The Irish and Leinster tend to dominate and the Welsh struggle, its natural to look sideways and think it could be better with more money over there. A couple of ears being dominated by the likes of Bristol, Wasps, Exeter and Saracens could mean the grumbles don't go away.

Maybe if fans expect to be dominated wherever they play then they might just accept that and think "better to be able to attend the 'domination' rather than watch in on pay per view TV" Wink . Like I said it's not my wish or desire currently but England is the only country/nation that we border. It seems, at least in theory, like that would be a more convenient nation to play rugby with than those overseas. But like you say, it's different things to different people. The Heineken Cup was massively popular in Wales even when we were getting whooped by the English. Much of that was to do with being able to travel easily for the match and also for English fans to be able to travel here and you then get a really good matchday experience. Perhaps part of it is where I live - I live just outside Newport and I can get to Bristol in 30 mins, Bath in an hour, Gloucester in an hour, Worcester in 1 hour 20 mins, etc. Rail links are really good to those too. It means that for Heineken/Challenge cups games I can seriously contemplate a visit (and I have visited some of these on a number of occasions). Doesn't change the fact that the English don't want us/don't need us/don't care. But it's an undeniable fact that England is just.... there! My nearest non-Welsh Pro14 game is probably Edinburgh? Don't fancy that drive after work on a Friday!

The problem with this is that whenever people try to discuss it the wider Pro14 fans shout "they don't want you" and the English shout "we don't need you". While this is all true, it's not what some people in Wales on these boards are actually saying. We're just saying that there's pro rugby on our doorstep, we like to play them, the games have historically generated good atmospheres/gates/revenue/memories, etc. Is there anything wrong with that?
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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 18 Mar 2021, 1:30 pm

No nothing wrong. Trips to Donny and Newcastle never mentioned often though! Europe is a bit of an anomaly in terms of they are never a regular set of fixtures; ie something of the novelty of them. Bit like when you see a team come up and their fans turn up in droves etc but when the general grind gets going after a few seasons the interest dwindles.

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