England - Summer Tour

First topic message reminder :

After an "interesting" 6n...and with the Lions tour possibly going ahead, England have a chance to send a young Saxons side full of talent on the Summer tour to USA and Canada (if Covid permits)

They have 4 games pencilled in...

12th June; England v Barbarians (Suggestions it wont go ahead)

10th July; Scotland v England
17th July; USA v England
24th July; Canada v England

So looking to the future and the AI's who would you take on the tour? Assuming its 32/33 squad size.

George Martin will be a very handy addition to the under 20s, him and Groves in the second row could be a scary proposition. It would be very Eddie to cap a promising player who's shown some good stuff early doors and then to drop him once he's shinning week to week.

It's a good squad though I'm not sure Slade is required, I'm hoping Marchant gets game time as he looks like the Joseph heir apparent and we need a strike runner in the midfield.

Very much like the idea of Kenningham developing into a Robshaw style blindside, 6.5 style. Could be very handy particularly with how often Underhill seems to get injured and at 6ft3 Kenningham should be a good tail option at the lineout.

BamBam wrote:Think Marchant might be viewed as a wing option too.

Chunya Munga and the Willis brothers apparently all came from the same club side in Reading at different times. Must be something in the water down there

Judging by his performances for the Blues in Super Rugby I think Marchant can genuinely play both wing and centre rather than just covering one position occasionally as Joseph does on the wing or Nowell can at 13.

I have been a Slade fan but I'd pick Marchant

king_carlos wrote:Judging by his performances for the Blues in Super Rugby I think Marchant can genuinely play both wing and centre rather than just covering one position occasionally as Joseph does on the wing or Nowell can at 13.

The last few games for Quins, Marchant has typically played one half at centre and then shifted to wing to accommodate Northmore. And he’s been exceptional in both roles.

It took him a while to reintegrate after his time in New Zealand, but he’s now found an excellent vein of form. I’ve been particularly impressed by his transition play - he’s created several tries from quick thinking when the ball bounces loose.

Green got MOTM in the semi-final, and Marler (deservedly so) in the final. But Marchant would have been my choice in the former and was very close in the latter.

I'd definitely prefer Marchant to start in the centres but it seems odds on for Slade to start if he's in there. Hoping that Jones is as brave with this squad as he was for Scotland.

Slade's best performances have been very good indeed but they came in his partnership with Manu. With Manu crocked again Slade's effectiveness has plummeted in my opinion. He's also been pretty inconsistent for England.

To Slade's credit I do think his carrying in contact looked better during the Six Nations. It's something England lack without Manu and it seemed clear that Slade had worked very hard to improve his crash ball. Whilst he's improved it will never be his strength though.

His defensive work is fantastic but I'm still not convinced he's stronger defensively than JJ who is also a terrific defensive lynchpin but offered more as a ball carrier with his footwork and running lines. I don't dislike Slade as an England player by any means, he has strengths, but I do think Lawrence and Marchant in particular offer the potential for long term improvement in the midfield.

Slade's kicking game is something of a mute point with England as well. He has a gigantic boot but with England frequently having two fly-halves and a fullback with a good kicking game it is rarely utilised.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Chunya Munga - had to Google this one. It doesn’t seem like he’s featured much for LI? I also see Falcons have a few forwards in, a team on the up .

*Ah I see Munga is an apprentice player, so he must be highly rated. His 6’7 and 120kg frame should allow him to go far in the modern game.

We're quite happy!

Chick (no8) and Blamire could kick on in the forwards in positions we're need players. Radwan on the wing is very special...LRZ pace, very exciting. Check out some of his tries Mikey on YouTube, crazy pace!

I’ve seen a bit of Radwan in the prem, very good finisher. Falcons played well against Ospreys so it’s a good bit of recognition for their players.

I hope Radwan does get a decent amount of time on the pitch. I don't want to see Malins and Marchant lining up either side.

formerly known as Sam wrote:George Martin will be a very handy addition to the under 20s, him and Groves in the second row could be a scary proposition. It would be very Eddie to cap a promising player who's shown some good stuff early doors and then to drop him once he's shinning week to week.

It's a good squad though I'm not sure Slade is required, I'm hoping Marchant gets game time as he looks like the Joseph heir apparent and we need a strike runner in the midfield.

Very much like the idea of Kenningham developing into a Robshaw style blindside, 6.5 style. Could be very handy particularly with how often Underhill seems to get injured and at 6ft3 Kenningham should be a good tail option at the lineout.

With him being excluded does that suggest a Hill will be the go to big unit at 6?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:George Martin will be a very handy addition to the under 20s, him and Groves in the second row could be a scary proposition. It would be very Eddie to cap a promising player who's shown some good stuff early doors and then to drop him once he's shinning week to week.

It's a good squad though I'm not sure Slade is required, I'm hoping Marchant gets game time as he looks like the Joseph heir apparent and we need a strike runner in the midfield.

Very much like the idea of Kenningham developing into a Robshaw style blindside, 6.5 style. Could be very handy particularly with how often Underhill seems to get injured and at 6ft3 Kenningham should be a good tail option at the lineout.

With him being excluded does that suggest a Hill will be the go to big unit at 6?

Dunno the lock options aren't particularly inspiring and he was named to cover there from the bench. I expect we'll see him at lock though who knows it's Eddie. I think Kenningham could be the man to go to 6. Perhaps Eddie sees a young Sam Underhill style player but who can jump at the lineout and race around the park tackling everything.

We really are producing so many back rowers at the moment....can we not move a few of them to 12 please....

Sam Simmonds to name but one!!

Disappointing to see Slade come into the side, Ludlow to get another chance but no Radwan. Malins continues on the wing. Randall and Smith should be fun to watch.

No Dombrandt either. Jesus.

Wish we'd dump this 6 2 bench split as well.

Genge, Langdon, Heyes, McInally, Ewels, Ludlow, Underhill, Chick, Randall, Smith, Malins, Lawrence, Slade, Cokanasiga, Steward

Blamire, Obano, Davidson, Hill, B Curry, Ludlum, Robson, Umaga

Disappointed no Dombrandt or Radwan but Canada next week I hope. Randall and Smith with Cokanasiga running with them should be good.

Poorfour wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Judging by his performances for the Blues in Super Rugby I think Marchant can genuinely play both wing and centre rather than just covering one position occasionally as Joseph does on the wing or Nowell can at 13.

The last few games for Quins, Marchant has typically played one half at centre and then shifted to wing to accommodate Northmore. And he’s been exceptional in both roles.

It took him a while to reintegrate after his time in New Zealand, but he’s now found an excellent vein of form. I’ve been particularly impressed by his transition play - he’s created several tries from quick thinking when the ball bounces loose.

Green got MOTM in the semi-final, and Marler (deservedly so) in the final. But Marchant would have been my choice in the former and was very close in the latter.

Marler continues to show he's head and shoulders above any other loosehead in the country, some of his defensive displays have been top notch as well as his usual scrummaging superiority. It wasn't a great day to be Harry Williams.

Maybe they think some of the quins need more time, because Marchant and Dombrandt look too good to leave out.

lostinwales wrote:Maybe they think some of the quins need more time, because Marchant and Dombrandt look too good to leave out.

You'd think that's the logical explanation, I get the sense that Jones doesn't rate either of them that highly for whatever reason. It seems clear that Dombrandt along with Simmonds is not in his immediate thinking.

Really is some good and meh in that England selection....

Soul Requiem wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Maybe they think some of the quins need more time, because Marchant and Dombrandt look too good to leave out.

You'd think that's the logical explanation, I get the sense that Jones doesn't rate either of them that highly for whatever reason. It seems clear that Dombrandt along with Simmonds is not in his immediate thinking.

I think Eddie wanted to give Chick a go last week and so he's getting another chance. It's the same for quite a bit of the side. I don't think this was the team Eddie envisioned it's half and half with possibly some of the unfortunate ones die to the cancelled game last weekend getting their chance next weekend.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Maybe they think some of the quins need more time, because Marchant and Dombrandt look too good to leave out.

You'd think that's the logical explanation, I get the sense that Jones doesn't rate either of them that highly for whatever reason. It seems clear that Dombrandt along with Simmonds is not in his immediate thinking.

I think Eddie wanted to give Chick a go last week and so he's getting another chance. It's the same for quite a bit of the side. I don't think this was the team Eddie envisioned it's half and half with possibly some of the unfortunate ones die to the cancelled game last weekend getting their chance next weekend.

Agreed - we'll have to revisit selections after the next game. Great to see Smith finally get his chance. At this point he seems to have it all.

I think we can't really judge what's going on with the squad until we see how the selection works for the other game(s) (I think they have said they will reschedule the Scotland A game)

I don't understand all the "why hasn't x been chosen" rants. Eddie made it very clear when the initial squads were announced that these were development games and one XV was likely to be quite different from the other. Let's not forget that Tom Curry started the 1st test against Argentina in 2017 to win his first cap and Sam Underhill started the next one. Both are now regarded by many as two of the finest flankers in the world.

The same could happen with Marcus Smith, Alex Dombrant, Adam Radwan, Harry Randall and Alex Mitchell. If they're deemed good enough by the coaches then they should get a crack. The Quins players have had a hard few weeks of rugby. I expect next week's matchday squad to look significantly different.

if the idea of the games if to give players a chance the 6/2 split is bit limiting for the backs.  Outside of SH/FH no opportunities.

I am not really fussed about who gets game time. Of course, I would like to see a few of my Saints lads get a run, but these games are probably not going to be too competitive regardless. I think we can all agree we want to see Marcus Smith do his thing. But I have the feeling the Bristol-Quins and Exeter-Quins matches were tougher than the USA and Canada matches will prove to be. I would have preferred to see an opponent like Argentina instead.

I see Jones has suggested that Dombrandt and Marchant are rested as they're still a little fatigued after the last two weeks. Should play next week

Whats peoples thoughts on Ted Hill.

Do you get the impression that Eddie isn't sold on him....

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see Jones has suggested that Dombrandt and Marchant are rested as they're still a little fatigued after the last two weeks. Should play next week

I'm expecting quite a few changes for next week though there will be some experiments maintained I suspect, the front row and half backs for instance.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see Jones has suggested that Dombrandt and Marchant are rested as they're still a little fatigued after the last two weeks. Should play next week

I'm expecting quite a few changes for next week though there will be some experiments maintained I suspect, the front row and half backs for instance.

What's your thoughts on Ludlow Sam.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see Jones has suggested that Dombrandt and Marchant are rested as they're still a little fatigued after the last two weeks. Should play next week

I'm expecting quite a few changes for next week though there will be some experiments maintained I suspect, the front row and half backs for instance.

What's your thoughts on Ludlow Sam.

A slight left field choice but he does captain his club and could do the all round job that Eddie does appear to want. Tackles, turnovers and third line out jumper. Not sure on his carrying game but if Eddie wants a workhorse to facilitate a Vunipola or Dombrandt at 8 he could just be the successor to Wilson in the unglamorous role.

I think Ted Hill has it tough. Worcester had little talent and it is kind of difficult to look good without a competitive team around you. But he did get picked so he has a chance to show something. Hopefully.

doctor_grey wrote:I think Ted Hill has it tough.  Worcester had little talent and it is kind of difficult to look good without a competitive team around you.  But he did get picked so he has a chance to show something.  Hopefully.

As a lock replacement it seems. Could be where his immediate test future lies. Could be a good impact sub in the row. Eddie does like his finishers.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I think Ted Hill has it tough.  Worcester had little talent and it is kind of difficult to look good without a competitive team around you.  But he did get picked so he has a chance to show something.  Hopefully.

As a lock replacement it seems. Could be where his immediate test future lies. Could be a good impact sub in the row. Eddie does like his finishers.

It's a good point about Eddie, Ted Hill, and his finishers.  

Your point made me think how much I would like to see a bigger influx of talent into the squad than just three or four.  The team has seemed stale, for lack of a better word, since after the RWC.  And more so over the last year.  A lot of us, including me, put it down to selection and strategy.  But maybe the selection pool needs to be widened further beyond some of the usual fringe players and more of the younger talent really be given a chance.   And as we see with Quins (and occasionally at Saints) dial up the pace a bit and good things can happen with the right players.

Do you think his speed and reaction is what makes him more a lock than a flanker in Jones eyes...

Ie hes not as fast / reactive as Underhill , Curry , Earl, even Lawes etc in the required scenarios....defensive realignment etc...

You're probably right.  I only saw him a few times on tv this season.  One of the games was the Saints game in which Worcester imploded in the second half.  From what little I did see, he covered a fair amount of ground and was certainly strong with his tackling and hitting the rucks.  He does look to me to be more of a second row, but that is from an admittedly small sample size. And Curry, Underhill, Earl, even Ludlam, are really quick as well as strong.

Congrats to Josh McNally. Second best lock in the RAF!!!

doctor_grey wrote:Your point made me think how much I would like to see a bigger influx of talent into the squad than just three or four.  The team has seemed stale, for lack of a better word, since after the RWC.

The team gives off an air of trying to fight yesterday's battles. New Zealand pundits sometimes say the same about the All Blacks, arguing the World Cup campaign was put off track by losses before the tournament, and then the philosophy was given a good kicking by the England loss. The coaches still seem to be thinking about how to counter 2019 England, rather than how to shape NZ to take on everyone.

It's hard to imagine Jones would have taken the route he has over the last two years if England had beaten South Africa (assuming he didn't bow out on a high note). Partly, it's getting his squad to deal with demons related to the loss, which is unavoidable. On the other hand, a lot of it seems to be Jones replaying that World Cup final in his head every time he has sent the team out.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do you think his speed and reaction is what makes him more a lock than a flanker in Jones eyes...

Ie hes not as fast / reactive as Underhill , Curry , Earl, even Lawes etc in the required scenarios....defensive realignment etc...

I think it's more what he can offer as a point of alternative to the other lock options. We don't have the biggest carriers in the second row, Hill is a pretty dynamic carrier for a player of his size. Having that off the bench could be a nice impact. Right now you might not start him because he isn't as set piece orientated as some of the other options but as the game goes on it should open up and the set piece might be less of an issue.

In the 6N he were bringing Ewels or J Hill off the bench which wasn't going to bring much dynamic impact. The only impact lock we could have off the bench is probably Lawes and he's into his thirties now so it makes sense to review other options. Particularly if Hill is going to play more at lock like he did for Wuss towards the end of the season.

This talk of where Hill ends up reminds me a little of Rodber. That didn't turn out to badly.

Rugby Fan wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Your point made me think how much I would like to see a bigger influx of talent into the squad than just three or four.  The team has seemed stale, for lack of a better word, since after the RWC.

The team gives off an air of trying to fight yesterday's battles.

Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to say, but you put it much better. Exactly why I want to see a greater infusion of younger talent. And we already lost two years refighting the RWC final...

Josh McNally. Why? Are there no decent young locks left?

lostinwales wrote:Josh McNally. Why? Are there no decent young locks left?

I think we're in the period of an amazing group of locks who have been around for years starting to hit their 30s etc..and the next batch just a little undercooked as yet.

Theres a few good ones coming through though.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Josh McNally. Why? Are there no decent young locks left?

I think we're in the period of an amazing group of locks who have been around for years starting to hit their 30s etc..and the next batch just a little undercooked as yet.

Theres a few good ones coming through though.

These are low pressure games so could be a good opportunity to blood the likes of Kpoku or give more experience to Martin. There is a lot to like about the team that is going out, but I don't think anyone reallly gains from playing a 30yr old journeyman apart from the player in question being able to point to his England cap in the years to come.

I'd bet he'll do just fine, but his chances of getting any more caps are very limited and the team does not move forward.

I'm less annoyed about him than Slade. Would much prefer to see that Kelly Lawrence combo from the cancelled match.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm less annoyed about him than Slade. Would much prefer to see that Kelly Lawrence combo from the cancelled match.

I know what you mean but the Slade/Lawrence combo might have some mileage in it.

Perhaps from the bench. I can see Smith Farrell Another taking us through the next couple of years.

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Josh McNally. Why? Are there no decent young locks left?

I think we're in the period of an amazing group of locks who have been around for years starting to hit their 30s etc..and the next batch just a little undercooked as yet.

Theres a few good ones coming through though.

These are low pressure games so could be a good opportunity to blood the likes of Kpoku or give more experience to Martin. There is a lot to like about the team that is going out, but I don't think anyone reallly gains from playing a 30yr old journeyman apart from the player in question being able to point to his England cap in the years to come.

I'd bet he'll do just fine, but his chances of getting any more caps are very limited and the team does not move forward.

Thats true and I'd probably prefer to see Kpoku or someone in aswell, but maybe Jones is more interested in other positions.

He knows he has the locks..but he has debuts at front row back row etc etc. He knows Mcinally won't get much further but he'll do the solid locks job that allows rhe front row to show Jones what they can do...and Chick etc

I'd agree I think Slade there is more frustrating...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Josh McNally. Why? Are there no decent young locks left?

I think we're in the period of an amazing group of locks who have been around for years starting to hit their 30s etc..and the next batch just a little undercooked as yet.

Theres a few good ones coming through though.

These are low pressure games so could be a good opportunity to blood the likes of Kpoku or give more experience to Martin. There is a lot to like about the team that is going out, but I don't think anyone reallly gains from playing a 30yr old journeyman apart from the player in question being able to point to his England cap in the years to come.

I'd bet he'll do just fine, but his chances of getting any more caps are very limited and the team does not move forward.

Thats true and I'd probably prefer to see Kpoku or someone in aswell, but maybe Jones is more interested in other positions.

He knows he has the locks..but he has debuts at front row back row etc etc. He knows Mcinally won't get much further but he'll do the solid locks job that allows rhe front row to show Jones what they can do...and Chick etc

I'd agree I think Slade there is more frustrating...

I'm struggling with Slade as well. Do you think Eddie Jones is giving him game time in the event of a Lions call-up?

I'm not a huge fan of Slade obviously. I wanted him to get a chance as I thought his skill set would shine at international level but he's just a bit meh. That said he must be annoyed at Daly getting called up and not him, bar the fact he'd have to be vaccinated.

We've got a bit of an act to follow up today after the football went so well yesterday. Really hoping that backline clicks.

So.....not the best 2 games...

Who has done enough to be looked at again for the AI's...and who is gone.

I genuinely dont think theres a huge number potentially threatening the starting England XV when everyone is available.

The only ones that have really stood out for me are Big Joe, Radwan and both half backs, Smith and Randall. Blamire impressed, but is still work in progress. The last time I saw a forward score a hat trick without moving more than 5 yards was Nick Easter against Wales back in the days when I could still run.

Steward has looked like he is a bit special, especially in the air, but there are a lot of players looking to get into the back three and 15 has the incumbent (hopefully going to sort out our problem at 13) Daly, Malins, Possibly Nowell and Watson depending on how big Joe gets on, with May and possibly Radwan also there plus the other half dozen or so young hopefuls that all have pace and skills to challenge.

The only other one that has been stand out in the little time he has had id Ludlam. he has made an immediate difference both times he has come on.

So....we really didn't move the needle very much.  Warren Gatland seems to be sorting England's problem at 13 and possibly prepping the next England 10 as well.  The England players who appeared to have high ceilings and real potential are mostly in the same boat, high ceilings and potential.  Not Eddie Jones or the player's faults, per se.  Just the caliber of the opposition.

By the way, was that Nick Easter game that huge scoreline against Wales in a RWC prep match? That's if my faulty memory banks still have anything clicking.