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Cell C Sharks v British & Irish Lions, 7 July

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Post by George Carlin Sun 04 Jul 2021, 5:28 am

First topic message reminder :

Cell C Sharks v British & Irish Lions, 7 July  - Page 3 Sharks10               Cell C Sharks v British & Irish Lions, 7 July  - Page 3 Lions_10                
CELL C SHARKS v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Wednesday 7 July
KO: 19:00 SAST / 18:00 UK / 21:00 Dubai  Very Happy
Emirates Airline Park (Ellis Park), Johannesburg
Sky Sports Main Event

Referee: Jaco Peyper (SARU)
Assistant Referee 1: Wayne Barnes (RFU)
Assistant Referee 2: AJ Jacobs (SARU)
TMO: Marius van der Westhuizen (SARU)

TEAMS:

CELL C SHARKS:
1. Khwezi Mona
2. Fez Mbatha
3. Khutha Mchunu
4. Ruben van Heerden
5. Hyron Andrews
6. James Venter
7. Thembelani Bholi
8. Phepsi Buthelezi (c)

9. Jaden Hendrikse
10. Curwin Bosch
11. Thaakir Abrahams
12. Marius Louw
13. Jeremy Ward
14. Werner Kok
15. Manie Libbok

16. Kerron van Vuuren
17. Ntuthuko Mchunu
18. Wiehahn Herbst
19. JJ van der Mescht
20. Reniel Hugo
21. Dylan Richardson
22. Grant Williams
23. Anthony Volmink

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS:
15. Liam Williams (Scarlets, Wales) #833
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, England) #816
13. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822
12. Bundee Aki (Connacht Rugby, Ireland) #837
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
9. Gareth Davies (Scarlets, Wales) #850

1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, England) #851
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #848
4. Iain Henderson – Captain (Ulster Rugby, Ireland) #808
5. Adam Beard (Ospreys, Wales)
6. Josh Navidi (Cardiff Rugby, Wales)
7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England)
8. Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, England) #849

16. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
17. Rory Sutherland (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #840
18. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
19. Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #838
20. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839
21. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790
22. Stuart Hogg (Exeter Chiefs, Scotland) #783
23. Chris Harris (Gloucester Rugby, Scotland) #844

COMMENTARY:


Last edited by George Carlin on Mon 05 Jul 2021, 11:58 am; edited 4 times in total
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Post by jimbopip Tue 06 Jul 2021, 11:57 am

BigGee wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm a bit intrigued by why people seem to think that Farrell played poorly on Saturday. I know he's a guy a lot of people dislike but what did he do wrong, or not do right?

I don't recall anyone saying he played poorly, but he did not stand out either, unlike a few of his contemporary's.

On the positive side, his goal kicking was immaculate and that will count for a lot.

On the negative side, he did not quite read a couple of Russell's late passes right on the line, maybe not that surprising for someone who has not played with him before and he missed the tackle on the Lions flanker, who almost went coast to coast and scored. Other than that he was solid.

I doubt however if Farrell might need to stand out to get into the test side in the way that someone like Russell might. He will get in based on his past performances and if Gats feels he can bring that form into the test team this time around.

See Gee, that was the point I was trying to make earlier; in past tours Gats tended to pick players who he believed would bring past form into the test team even when current form might indicate otherwise. The fact that a fairly high percentage of those players were Welsh didn't endear him to many folk north of the wall. This time it looks as if there is a more open minded attitude towards selection.
As for Faz; at 10 I think he's third, Biggar is probably most suited to Gats' gameplan and Dancer is Plan B on the bench. At 12 Henshaw and Aki are pretty similar and Faz should be an alternative to them as a second playmaker but while he wasn't actually bad on saturday neither did he set the heather on fire. Mind, his kicking from the tee was excellent so that might tip the balance in his favour, especially if Dancer is at 10.

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Post by TJ Tue 06 Jul 2021, 12:02 pm

Dancer is not a poor place kicker - one recent season he was several % points better than Farrell.

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Post by lostinwales Tue 06 Jul 2021, 12:06 pm

Not seen the game but have seen some praise for Farrell's passing releasing the wingers. He's very marmite for lots of reasons.

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Post by BigGee Tue 06 Jul 2021, 12:06 pm

jimbopip wrote:
BigGee wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm a bit intrigued by why people seem to think that Farrell played poorly on Saturday. I know he's a guy a lot of people dislike but what did he do wrong, or not do right?

I don't recall anyone saying he played poorly, but he did not stand out either, unlike a few of his contemporary's.

On the positive side, his goal kicking was immaculate and that will count for a lot.

On the negative side, he did not quite read a couple of Russell's late passes right on the line, maybe not that surprising for someone who has not played with him before and he missed the tackle on the Lions flanker, who almost went coast to coast and scored. Other than that he was solid.

I doubt however if Farrell might need to stand out to get into the test side in the way that someone like Russell might. He will get in based on his past performances and if Gats feels he can bring that form into the test team this time around.

See Gee, that was the point I was trying to make earlier; in past tours Gats tended to pick players who he believed would bring past form into the test team even when current form might indicate otherwise. The fact that a fairly high percentage of those players were Welsh didn't endear him to many folk north of the wall. This time it looks as if there is a more open minded attitude towards selection.
As for Faz; at 10 I think he's third, Biggar is probably most suited to Gats' gameplan and Dancer is Plan B on the bench. At 12 Henshaw and Aki are pretty similar and Faz should be an alternative to them as a second playmaker but while he wasn't actually bad on saturday neither did he set the heather on fire. Mind, his kicking from the tee was excellent so that might tip the balance in his favour, especially if Dancer is at 10.


Yes it does seem clear that Russell is not going to be considered as a goal kicker, though he is by no means poor in that regard. If he starts at 10, then I am sure it will be with Farrell outside of him. They are probably going to be considered as a pair. If he picks them both for the next warm up game, he will expect a little better chemistry between them on the short passing on the gain line.


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Post by TJ Tue 06 Jul 2021, 12:20 pm

lostinwales wrote:Not seen the game but have seen some praise for Farrell's passing releasing the wingers. He's very marmite for lots of reasons.

Its on youtube - yo need to watch it because the best passing moves bypassed him. ONe really nice but simple pass I remember

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Post by LordDowlais Tue 06 Jul 2021, 12:26 pm

The game against the Bulls on the weekend is now in doubt because several members of their squad have tested positive for covid.

I will ask again, what the frig is happening with the South African players, seemingly breaking covid rules ?

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Post by BamBam Tue 06 Jul 2021, 12:28 pm

It could be due to the team physio or bus driver for all we know, there was always likely to be risks to games with the tour in the current climate.

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Post by Old Man Tue 06 Jul 2021, 12:31 pm

The Bulls players only went into the bubble last night, I would think all from home, after being tested they were found to be positive.

You would think the players would self isolate at home, but it seems it cannot be the case if some have contracted the virus.

I spoke to a client of mine this morning, his neighbour went to visit his brother who had covid, apparently his brother was inside the house and he visited on the porch for a while, eight days later he himself passed away from covid.

How he contracted the virus is a mystery.

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Post by George Carlin Tue 06 Jul 2021, 12:37 pm

RDW wrote:How did we get onto GC's sweaty nether regions again?
It is inevitable. Cool
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Post by BamBam Tue 06 Jul 2021, 1:17 pm

If both the Boks and Bulls can’t play this weekend, it’s apparently going to be Lions v Georgia

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Post by George Carlin Tue 06 Jul 2021, 1:31 pm

BamBam wrote:If both the Boks and Bulls can’t play this weekend, it’s apparently going to be Lions v Georgia
That absolutely makes sense.
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Post by Old Man Tue 06 Jul 2021, 1:37 pm

Won’t be good for the Boks though, they will go into the test series undercooked

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Post by Collapse2005 Tue 06 Jul 2021, 1:55 pm

Old Man wrote:Won’t be good for the Boks though, they will go into the test series undercooked

Well everyone will be undercooked except Snyman and De Allende.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 06 Jul 2021, 1:59 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Old Man wrote:Won’t be good for the Boks though, they will go into the test series undercooked

Well everyone will be undercooked except Snyman and De Allende.

Take a bow.

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Post by Old Man Tue 06 Jul 2021, 2:03 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Old Man wrote:Won’t be good for the Boks though, they will go into the test series undercooked

Well everyone will be undercooked except Snyman and De Allende.

laughing Yeah, they might be a bit too toasted,

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Post by BigGee Tue 06 Jul 2021, 5:31 pm

I have seen reports that the Bulls game is definitely off, they may try and reschedule it between the 1st and 2nd tests.

Georgia also have some suspicious cases in their squad and are awaiting testing, so I would say that neither Boks nor Lions could be playing them this weekend!

Not looking good for Scotland's belated summer tour match either!

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Post by BamBam Tue 06 Jul 2021, 6:04 pm

https://twitter.com/ruaidhrioc/status/1412456055842422790?s=12

🚨Breaking: The Lions tour
⛑Nienaber among 11 new cases in Springbok camp (4 players, 6 management, 1 masseuse)
🏉Lions looking for new opponents for Saturday after Bulls game put on hold - they've 5 positives
🇬🇪 'Boks v Georgia now in major doubt, Georgia also have 4 positives

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Post by Old Man Tue 06 Jul 2021, 6:08 pm

This tour is doomed

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Post by BigGee Tue 06 Jul 2021, 6:14 pm

About the only positive from this is that if they isolate the whole Boks squad now then they might get them clear prior to the Test series.

The negative to that is that they will be really really underprepared.

Can't see Georgia playing again for a few weeks either, experience tells us that there are always secondary cases in a squad after the first ones come out. Hindsight will suggest that they were brave to come out to SA in the first place!


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Post by Old Man Tue 06 Jul 2021, 6:16 pm

Boks will have to play themselves

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Post by BigGee Tue 06 Jul 2021, 6:17 pm

Old Man wrote:This tour is doomed

It is hanging on by a thread atm

What will kill it dead is if we get any cases in the BI Lions squad, I don't think there will be any coming back from that.

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Post by Old Man Tue 06 Jul 2021, 6:33 pm

Rassie did say if necessary the Boks can draw from players outside the squad, but that would severely affect their performance

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Post by Collapse2005 Tue 06 Jul 2021, 6:53 pm

I fear we are fairly close to scrapping the tour

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Post by Old Man Tue 06 Jul 2021, 6:55 pm

Sadly yes, it seems so

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue 06 Jul 2021, 11:18 pm

The vaccinations don't seem to be shielding the Springboks. Certainly, the vaccine doesn't make you bulletproof, as high profile examples like Andrew Marr demonstrate. Still, there seem to be quite a few positives, which suggests the vaccinations were administered later than indicated, or else some players elected not to have them.

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Post by BigGee Tue 06 Jul 2021, 11:37 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:The vaccinations don't seem to be shielding the Springboks. Certainly, the vaccine doesn't make you bulletproof, as high profile examples like Andrew Marr demonstrate. Still, there seem to be quite a few positives, which suggests the vaccinations were administered later than indicated, or else some players elected not to have them.

Again, going back to what we have discussed before, the purpose of vaccines is not to stop you catching Covid, rather to stop you dying or getting seriously ill from it.

We don't know who has been vaccinated at the end of the day, nor how many times, nor when remembering there is a delay in time from vaccination up to maximum protection.


It is a pretty good bet though that many, if not all the players are not fully vaccinated by the above criteria.


I don't think we can blame what is going on in SA on the vaccine program but rather on poor compliance with protective measures and the fact that the virus is currently rampant in that area.

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Post by RDW Tue 06 Jul 2021, 11:40 pm

Obviously there are bigger issues in the world right now, but purely from a Lions prep point of view that's a pain. It basically means there's only going to be 1 game to play what is deemed close to being the test team, and a number of players will only have had one start in the lead up to that.

It's certainly going to focus the minds of the coaches to work out what that test team is soon!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 07 Jul 2021, 7:16 am

All looking a bit dodgy. Wouldn't be massively surprised if this is the last match today.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 07 Jul 2021, 7:59 am

How can it be that the Lions who are in SA are not getting anymore cases, but all these South African players are ?

Are the South African players and coaches actually taking this seriously ? They do not deserve this tour the way they are behaving.

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Post by Old Man Wed 07 Jul 2021, 8:09 am

Perhaps you are judging them without knowing how they contracted the virus?

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Post by RDW Wed 07 Jul 2021, 8:11 am

LordDowlais wrote:How can it be that the Lions who are in SA are not getting anymore cases, but all these South African players are ?

Are the South African players and coaches actually taking this seriously ? They do not deserve this tour the way they are behaving.

That's a huge assumption to make given there's been no evidence to suggest they've not been taking it seriously. Covid is absolutely rampant in South Africa just now and very easily spread.

Also worth bearing in mind that Covid has an incubation period of up to 14 days - the Australian quarantine system has found that most cases come from people who have already been in quarantine 8-12 days.

Covid is a nightmare, the current strain is a nightmare - these kind of things are inevitable.


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Post by LordDowlais Wed 07 Jul 2021, 8:36 am

But none of our players are being pulled up with positive cases, and they are all in South Africa for more than 14 days, right in the middle of it all. What are our squad doing different to the South African squads ?

We all knew this tour was happening, we all knew the situation in South Africa, yet here we are, with South African players getting positive tests left right and center.

Am I missing something here ?

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Post by Old Man Wed 07 Jul 2021, 8:41 am

We are all missing something here, best not to draw conclusions without knowledge

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 07 Jul 2021, 8:43 am

What are the covid rules for south africa and the bulls etc? Thats probably the place to start. Even the Lions have fewer restrictions than England did in the 6ns so its not as if they're doing everything possible. May be multiple factors and of course a bit of luck comes into it as well.

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Post by RDW Wed 07 Jul 2021, 8:45 am

Old Man wrote:We are all missing something here, best not to draw conclusions without knowledge

This. No one here has full knowledge of what SA's Covid protocols are so to claim they're not taking it seriously is a huge accusation.

Also, there's still time yet for the Lions to have an outbreak! Hopefully not but it is a big risk.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 07 Jul 2021, 8:45 am

Just be clear, I am not blaming the fans, and saying they do not deserve it, but the people involved have a responsibility, and they must be seen to be doing all they can not to put the tour in jeopardy.

I would be massively disappointed if this tour was cancelled because all the South African players kept testing positive.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 07 Jul 2021, 8:48 am

The Lions aren't even doing all they can.

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Post by MichaelT Wed 07 Jul 2021, 8:49 am

LordDowlais wrote:But none of our players are being pulled up with positive cases, and they are all in South Africa for more than 14 days, right in the middle of it all. What are our squad doing different to the South African squads ?

We all knew this tour was happening, we all knew the situation in South Africa, yet here we are, with South African players getting positive tests left right and center.

Am I missing something here ?

They arrived on Monday 28th I believe? Thats only 9 to 10 days ago. Someone else has said the incubation period can be 8 to 12 days so I think it is a little early to start these type of finger pointing statements.


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Post by BigGee Wed 07 Jul 2021, 8:52 am

We would all be disappointed LD

But some sense of perspective is required. Thousands of people are ill and dying in SA and unlike here, they have not had the benefit of a huge vaccine roolout yet.

If the tour is cancelled, it will just be one of the many inconvenient things that have happened due to Covid, but in no way a tragedy, as all the deaths have been.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 07 Jul 2021, 9:06 am

Also, to be clear, I am not underplaying the affect covid has had in South Africa, or making a slight on the people who have died because of it, that in itself is a tragedy. My heart goes out to the people affected in this way.

But, everyone knew the situation in South Africa. Perhaps this tour should not have gone ahead in the first place. Not until South Africa's vaccine roll out had been further down the road, and knowing this, and the fact that South Africa wanted this, then perhaps they should have put better measures in place to insure that the tour was not put in jeopardy because of it.

That's all I am saying on this matter now, before everybody starts taking things the wrong way. OK

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 07 Jul 2021, 9:24 am

Bit more around the LCD knock out.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/06/luke-cowan-dickie-knockout-invites-fresh-questions-on-concussion-rules-rugby-union-breakdown

Gatland standing firm that they ticked every box and placing the focus on the medical team.

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Post by BamBam Wed 07 Jul 2021, 9:26 am

Its such a crazy situation, the tour either went ahead now or not at all by the sounds of it. SA rugby are probably doing all they can, but the players and staff are not necessarily at fault

The Bulls went into their bubble on Monday according to SA rugby journalists, and found positive cases at the entry point - that seems fair enough to me, the process has worked and identified anyone with COVID. I'm not sure they could be expected to bubble up for weeks beforehand for a one off game, the Lions have been in this camp for a while now but the provincial sides just wouldn't be able to do the same.

Similarly with the Boks, we have no idea what the source was, does anyone know how long they've been in camp?

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Post by Old Man Wed 07 Jul 2021, 9:26 am

SA rugby needs this tour badly, it is rumoured if this tour doesn’t go throguh there is a real possibility it will sned SA rugby back to the amateur era

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Post by Rugby Fan Wed 07 Jul 2021, 9:26 am

Tokyo's COVID-19 case count is rising again, which has people here nervous about the upcoming Olympics.

While vaccination of over-65s is well underway, the programme hasn't made much of a dent yet in other age groups.

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 07 Jul 2021, 9:49 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Tokyo's COVID-19 case count is rising again, which has people here nervous about the upcoming Olympics.

While vaccination of over-65s is well underway, the programme hasn't made much of a dent yet in other age groups.

So if we know this now, then surely strict measures need to be put in place to prevent the Olympics being put in jeopardy ? Strict bubbles, athletes isolating, I know it's a big ask, but if they are serious about the Olympics going ahead, measures need to be made.

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Post by doctor_grey Wed 07 Jul 2021, 10:45 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bit more around the LCD knock out.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/jul/06/luke-cowan-dickie-knockout-invites-fresh-questions-on-concussion-rules-rugby-union-breakdown

Gatland standing firm that they ticked every box and placing the focus on the medical team.
I am pretty sure Gatland followed the direction of his med staff and went by procedure. He is the centre point of all this, but a lot of people are pointing their fingers at the med staff, and in my opinion, that is where the focus needs to be. I presume Gatland asked all the right questions whether LCD can he play if he passes protocols. I really have no idea because there has been no mention in the media that I saw, but guessing the question about travelling did not come up.

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Post by BigGee Wed 07 Jul 2021, 1:07 pm

SA v Georgia officially off this weekend, extensive Covid in both camps.

This is going to put the cat amongst the pigeons!

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Post by LordDowlais Wed 07 Jul 2021, 1:27 pm

Oh well, this tour is doomed now:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/57751748

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Post by RDW Wed 07 Jul 2021, 1:28 pm

https://www.lionsrugby.com/2021/07/07/lions-rugby-statement-ahead-of-sharks-fixture

Here goes...

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Post by Old Man Wed 07 Jul 2021, 1:31 pm

Yup, covid19 is going to cancel this tour.

I wonder whether the Lions’ quarantine protocols are similar or more stringent to the SA ones.

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