South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 31 July

by **George Carlin** Sun Jul 25, 2021 6:23 pm

First topic message reminder :

South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 31 July - Page 15 A_10

South Africa v British & Irish Lions, 31 July - Page 15 Lions_10

SOUTH AFRICA v BRITISH & IRISH LIONS
Saturday 31 July
KO: 18:00 SAST / 17:00 UK / 20:00 Dubai Very Happy

Cape Town Stadium (Newlands), Cape Town
Sky Sports Main Event

Referee: Ben O’Keeffe (New Zealand)
Assistant Referees: Nic Berry (Australia), Mathieu Raynal (France)
TMO: Marius Jonker ( Erm

)

TEAMS:

SOUTH AFRICA:
15 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 63 caps, 60 pts (12t)
14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Toulouse) – 15 caps, 40 pts (8t)
13 – Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 16 caps, 15 pts (3t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Munster) – 48 caps, 30 pts (6t)
11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 15 caps, 70 pts (14t)
10 – Handré Pollard (vice-captain, Montpellier) – 50 caps, 477pts (6t, 78c, 93p, 4d)
09 – Faf de Klerk (Sale Sharks) – 31 caps, 25 pts (5t)

08 – Jasper Wiese (Leicester Tigers) – 1 cap, 0 pts
07 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (DHL Stormers) – 57 caps, 25 pts (5t)
06 – Siya Kolisi (captain, Cell C Sharks) – 52 caps, 30 pts (6t)
05 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 41 caps, 5pts (1t)
04 – Eben Etzebeth (Toulon) – 87 caps, 15 pts (3t)
03 – Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers) – 40 caps, 5pts (1t)
02 – Bongi Mbonambi (DHL Stormers) – 38 caps, 40 pts (8t)
01 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 49 caps, 5pts (1t)

16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 35 caps, 30 pts (6t)
17 – Trevor Nyakane (Vodacom Bulls) – 44 caps, 5 pts (1t)
18 – Vincent Koch (Saracens) – 21 caps, 0 pts
19 – Lood de Jager (Sale Sharks) – 46 caps, 25 pts (5t)
20 – Marco van Staden (Vodacom Bulls) – 3 caps, 0 pts
21 – Kwagga Smith (Yamaha Júbilo) – 8 caps, 5 pts (1t)
22 – Herschel Jantjies (DHL Stormers) – 12 caps, 25 pts (5t)
23 – Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 8 caps, 5pts (1t)

BRITISH & IRISH LIONS:
15. Stuart Hogg (Exeter Chiefs, Scotland) #783
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, England) #816
13. Chris Harris (Gloucester Rugby, Scotland) #844
12. Robbie Henshaw (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #824
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #841
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales) #821
09. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #790

01. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England) #787
02. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, England) #851
03. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #818
04. Maro Itoje (Saracens, England) #825
05. Alun Wyn Jones – captain (Ospreys, Wales) #761
06. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, England) #826
07. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England) #853
08. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland) #839

16. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales) #829
17. Rory Sutherland (Worcester Warriors, Scotland) #840
18. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, England) #814
19. Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby, Ireland) #838
20. Taulupe Faletau (Bath Rugby, Wales) #779
21. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland) #843
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, England) #780
23. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England) #822

PREVIEW:

by **BigGee** Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:39 am

Old Man wrote:Jaden Hendrikse has been called into the Bok squad as there is concern over Faf de Klerk injury.

Hendrikse has been performing well for the Sharks and is an exciting youngster.

I doubt he will get game time as Reinach and Jantjies are in line before him.

Any news on PSDT?

He will be a big miss if out and it did not look very promising for him.

by **BigGee** Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:42 am

Mr Bounce wrote:If I were the one making changes, I'd go for something a little bit different. What is the point of having great expansive players on the tour if they won't be used?? I would be looking to replace the entire back 3 with Adams at 11, Williams at 15 and LRZ at 14. They are a cracking unit, safe under the high ball and the two wingers have genuine pace and a nose for the try line. Both Duhan and Hogg were poor in the air.

Price has to start again at 9. I felt that Murray was so one-dimensionally slow we barely had any likelihood of quick ball. The pack were ok, if a little flat, so why not inject some major pace by having Simmonds start at 8?

And as for the 10s, starting Smith or Russell has the potential to inject a huge amount of pace and intrigue to the game.

It won't happen, but if we use the same tactics as Saturday, it'll be another 15-20 point loss, so we may as well roll the dice.

All makes sense to me, if we play the same game as this week, we lose again!

This may be the biggest decision of Gats career and one that goes against all his instincts!

by sensisball Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:52 am

Old man
I guess if PSdT is unavailable then Elstad would start at blindside? He isn't as athletic as Du Toit, (who is?), but he is another excellent lineout option and weighing around 120 kg he hits hard in the tackle. A quality defender and a good ball carrier.
Think the Boks changes for yesterday were spot on: start best scrummaging front row, sap the legs out of the Lions front 5 and then bring on the more dynamic, mobile front row to really power the rolling maul and dominate the lineout with De Jager.
Lot of head scratching for Gatland this week.

by Old Man Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:56 am

BigGee wrote:
Old Man wrote:Jaden Hendrikse has been called into the Bok squad as there is concern over Faf de Klerk injury.

Hendrikse has been performing well for the Sharks and is an exciting youngster.

I doubt he will get game time as Reinach and Jantjies are in line before him.

Any news on PSDT?

He will be a big miss if out and it did not look very promising for him.

There is concern about him, will only have confirmation in 48 hours, personally the disappointment he showd tells me he knew he was out. Something to do with his shoulder.

I think there will be a few changes to the team.

I am also advocating Kolbe must be replaced by S’Bu Nkosi this weekend. He has struggled with the physicality of the Lions and him being targeted with the up and unders. Nkosi is more physical and solid in the air.

Likely Springbok team in my view.

Kitshoff
Mbonambi
Malherbe
Etzebeth
Mostert
Kolisi
Smith
Vermeulen (he joined the bok camp, whether he will be fit is the question)
Reinach
Pollard
Mapimpi
De Allende
Am
Nkosi
Le Roux

Nyakane
Marx
Koch
De Jager
Marco v Staden
Herschel Jantjies
Damian Willemse

Don’t know who will be the sixth forward.

by Old Man Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:59 am

sensisball wrote:Old man
I guess if PSdT is unavailable then Elstad would start at blindside? He isn't as athletic as Du Toit, (who is?), but he is another excellent lineout option and weighing around 120 kg he hits hard in the tackle. A quality defender and a good ball carrier.
Think the Boks changes for yesterday were spot on: start best scrummaging front row, sap the legs out of the Lions front 5 and then bring on the more dynamic, mobile front row to really power the rolling maul and dominate the lineout with De Jager.
Lot of head scratching for Gatland this week.

I am struggling with who will replace PSDT. Not a big fan of Elstad. Maube Nicolaas Janse van Rensburg

by **BigGee** Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:09 am

Well it turns out that the only citing from the match is a biting charge against Kyle Sinklair

No idea when that was meant to have hsppened?

by Old Man Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:15 am

No idea

by Old Man Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:20 am

Apparently it happened in the 64th minute, he was cited by the Australian AR, it is supposedly on Mostert.

by **RiscaGame** Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:30 am

Crazy, that’s it. It’s not even something that was mentioned anywhere, is it?

by No 7&1/2 Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:30 am

BigGee wrote:Well it turns out that the only citing from the match is a biting charge against Kyle Sinklair

No idea when that was meant to have hsppened?

Lol. Crazy. Citing is hit and miss and they've definitely missed this time.

by Collapse2005 Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:40 am

hugehandoff wrote:
Northgrill wrote:The irony of Itoje kneeling before the game for a protest that was sparked by a cop kneeling on someones neck.

Totally ridiculous comment. No comparison at all. This is a rugby match and of course no way he knelt on his neck on purpose. He should still have been punished for this as clearly dangerous but careless and not malicious. I don’t see him as a dirty player just a hard one.

Hmmm looked fairly intentional to me.

by Collapse2005 Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:41 am

https://www.ruck.co.uk/video-emerges-of-kyle-sinckler-bite-that-saw-prop-cited/

Nothing in this video, wonder did the Bok have bite marks on him or something.

by TightHEAD Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:42 am

That's it, no citings for anyone else?????

World rugby you are a shower of Poopie, bunch of Muppet.

by mikey_dragon Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:43 am

Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

by Duty281 Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:50 am

It was the wild west out there, hell in a cell, but the only citing is for an incident that nobody appears to have registered. Baffling stuff.

If I were World Rugby the first person I'd cite would be Ben O'Keefe, followed closely by Marius Jonker.

by Old Man Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:54 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

by mikey_dragon Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:20 am

Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

Are you sure it would get them in deeper trouble? I mean, I'm not so sure given that we now know taking people out in the air is okay albeit very dangerous. Or is it only South Africans that can get away with it?

by Guest Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:24 am

BigGee wrote:Well it turns out that the only citing from the match is a biting charge against Kyle Sinklair

No idea when that was meant to have hsppened?

Keil Synclerr biting?! I didn’t notice anything. Was it during one of the melees???

by Old Man Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:29 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

Are you sure it would get them in deeper trouble? I mean, I'm not so sure given that we now know taking people out in the air is okay albeit very dangerous. Or is it only South Africans that can get away with it?

You can continue harping on the same incident if it makes you feel better. You have the right to feel aggrieved by it, but suggesting the Lions must go all out in the third test means you are condoning foul play, which will not solve anything.

Gatland wanted a red card against Faf in the SA A match.
You want a red card against Kolbe.
Someone else wants a red card against Faf for this test.
Someone else wants a red card against Watson for last test
Then someone wants a red card against Itoje for putting a knee into De Allende’s neck
Then Keith Wood suggests DVDM should be red carded.
Another complaint was Biggar needing a red card for falling down as if he was shot.

I have lost count on how many other red card complaints there was.

It is getting ridiculous.

This incessant, almost maniacal obsession with red cards under the auspices of “player safety” is getting to the point where rugby as we knew it will become unrecognisable.

Just listened to Pieter de Villiers discussing the issue of what players are coached to do. They are coached to follow the ball. If you now have to worry about the opposition player safety first and foremost, then you won’t tackle anyone.

It is a contact sport, if you want to guarantee player safety in a contact sport, remove the contact.

Lets all play touch rugby with no kicks.

by **BigGee** Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:45 am

Getting a RC/YC/penalty in any situation on a rugby field is subject to the interpretation of the officials on the pitch at the time.

The back up plan to that is we also have the citing system for events that may have been missed or under sanctioned at the time.

It is always going to be an imperfect system but can we actually produce a better one in a game with rules as complex as rugby?

Poor or arguable reffing decisions have existed as long as the game has in rugby and we who have played have always learnt to live with them. In reality, we know that they have a habit of evening themselves out over time in any case.

It is something we have to accept in a world where we feel able to challenge anything and unfortunately I don't think the very public challenging of the officiating by the coaching staff has helped the situation, the long term damage to the integrity of officialdom is at real risk here.

Unfortunately rugby as we see and know it will have to accept that officiating is not and never will be an exact science. Unless we want a game that goes on for three hours a game and where we all give up the will to live while watching, as we almost experienced on saturday, we probably have to accept the way games are reffed for better or for worse!

by Guest Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:47 am

Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

Are you sure it would get them in deeper trouble? I mean, I'm not so sure given that we now know taking people out in the air is okay albeit very dangerous. Or is it only South Africans that can get away with it?

You can continue harping on the same incident if it makes you feel better. You have the right to feel aggrieved by it, but suggesting the Lions must go all out in the third test means you are condoning foul play, which will not solve anything.

Gatland wanted a red card against Faf in the SA A match.
You want a red card against Kolbe.
Someone else wants a red card against Faf for this test.
Someone else wants a red card against Watson for last test
Then someone wants a red card against Itoje for putting a knee into De Allende’s neck
Then Keith Wood suggests DVDM should be red carded.
Another complaint was Biggar needing a red card for falling down as if he was shot.

I have lost count on how many other red card complaints there was.

It is getting ridiculous.

This incessant, almost maniacal obsession with red cards under the auspices of “player safety” is getting to the point where rugby as we knew it will become unrecognisable.

Just listened to Pieter de Villiers discussing the issue of what players are coached to do. They are coached to follow the ball. If you now have to worry about the opposition player safety first and foremost, then you won’t tackle anyone.

It is a contact sport, if you want to guarantee player safety in a contact sport, remove the contact.

Lets all play touch rugby with no kicks.

Or............find the middle ground???

by Guest Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:50 am

On the Biggar ‘dive’, I’ve seen another angle and the barge in his back actually looked like it made him clash heads with Furlong. I’m not commenting on the barge itself, but just thinking that perhaps the clash of heads is why he went down so easily? Not sure it was pure theatrics.

by Old Man Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:53 am

The Oracle wrote:On the Biggar ‘dive’, I’ve seen another angle and the barge in his back actually looked like it made him clash heads with Furlong. I’m not commenting on the barge itself, but just thinking that perhaps the clash of heads is why he went down so easily? Not sure it was pure theatrics.

He grabbed his side as if he was shot in the back

by Old Man Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:55 am

The Oracle wrote:
Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

Are you sure it would get them in deeper trouble? I mean, I'm not so sure given that we now know taking people out in the air is okay albeit very dangerous. Or is it only South Africans that can get away with it?

You can continue harping on the same incident if it makes you feel better. You have the right to feel aggrieved by it, but suggesting the Lions must go all out in the third test means you are condoning foul play, which will not solve anything.

Gatland wanted a red card against Faf in the SA A match.
You want a red card against Kolbe.
Someone else wants a red card against Faf for this test.
Someone else wants a red card against Watson for last test
Then someone wants a red card against Itoje for putting a knee into De Allende’s neck
Then Keith Wood suggests DVDM should be red carded.
Another complaint was Biggar needing a red card for falling down as if he was shot.

I have lost count on how many other red card complaints there was.

It is getting ridiculous.

This incessant, almost maniacal obsession with red cards under the auspices of “player safety” is getting to the point where rugby as we knew it will become unrecognisable.

Just listened to Pieter de Villiers discussing the issue of what players are coached to do. They are coached to follow the ball. If you now have to worry about the opposition player safety first and foremost, then you won’t tackle anyone.

It is a contact sport, if you want to guarantee player safety in a contact sport, remove the contact.

Lets all play touch rugby with no kicks.

Or............find the middle ground???

And what is the middle ground? You have 30 supremely talented athletes playing at a physicality level never seen before in a highly competitive sporting environment playing a contact sport. How do you find a middle ground that does not compromise injuries?

by **RiscaGame** Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:55 am

He was pushed in the back. After a warning given out about people running in too. I’m pretty sure most people would feel it a bit, if they were blindsided by a front row forward.

by Guest Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:57 am

Old Man wrote:
The Oracle wrote:On the Biggar ‘dive’, I’ve seen another angle and the barge in his back actually looked like it made him clash heads with Furlong. I’m not commenting on the barge itself, but just thinking that perhaps the clash of heads is why he went down so easily? Not sure it was pure theatrics.
He grabbed his side as if he was shot in the back

Yes he was hit in the back. But clashed heads with his own teammate too. Just pointing that out.

by Guest Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:59 am

Old Man wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

Are you sure it would get them in deeper trouble? I mean, I'm not so sure given that we now know taking people out in the air is okay albeit very dangerous. Or is it only South Africans that can get away with it?

You can continue harping on the same incident if it makes you feel better. You have the right to feel aggrieved by it, but suggesting the Lions must go all out in the third test means you are condoning foul play, which will not solve anything.

Gatland wanted a red card against Faf in the SA A match.
You want a red card against Kolbe.
Someone else wants a red card against Faf for this test.
Someone else wants a red card against Watson for last test
Then someone wants a red card against Itoje for putting a knee into De Allende’s neck
Then Keith Wood suggests DVDM should be red carded.
Another complaint was Biggar needing a red card for falling down as if he was shot.

I have lost count on how many other red card complaints there was.

It is getting ridiculous.

This incessant, almost maniacal obsession with red cards under the auspices of “player safety” is getting to the point where rugby as we knew it will become unrecognisable.

Just listened to Pieter de Villiers discussing the issue of what players are coached to do. They are coached to follow the ball. If you now have to worry about the opposition player safety first and foremost, then you won’t tackle anyone.

It is a contact sport, if you want to guarantee player safety in a contact sport, remove the contact.

Lets all play touch rugby with no kicks.

Or............find the middle ground???

And what is the middle ground? You have 30 supremely talented athletes playing at a physicality level never seen before in a highly competitive sporting environment playing a contact sport. How do you find a middle ground that does not compromise injuries?

Tackling safely and penalising dangerous play, obvs. Like they do now. No need to remove the contact completely.

by aucklandlaurie Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:02 am

Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

Are you sure it would get them in deeper trouble? I mean, I'm not so sure given that we now know taking people out in the air is okay albeit very dangerous. Or is it only South Africans that can get away with it?

You can continue harping on the same incident if it makes you feel better. You have the right to feel aggrieved by it, but suggesting the Lions must go all out in the third test means you are condoning foul play, which will not solve anything.

Gatland wanted a red card against Faf in the SA A match.
You want a red card against Kolbe.
Someone else wants a red card against Faf for this test.
Someone else wants a red card against Watson for last test
Then someone wants a red card against Itoje for putting a knee into De Allende’s neck
Then Keith Wood suggests DVDM should be red carded.
Another complaint was Biggar needing a red card for falling down as if he was shot.

I have lost count on how many other red card complaints there was.

It is getting ridiculous.

This incessant, almost maniacal obsession with red cards under the auspices of “player safety” is getting to the point where rugby as we knew it will become unrecognisable.

Just listened to Pieter de Villiers discussing the issue of what players are coached to do. They are coached to follow the ball. If you now have to worry about the opposition player safety first and foremost, then you won’t tackle anyone.

It is a contact sport, if you want to guarantee player safety in a contact sport, remove the contact.

Lets all play touch rugby with no kicks.

Sadly this is the central issue that Rugby at an International level has to address.

Teams, coaching staff, and fans badgering the officials to issue coloured cards so as to reduce the number of opposition to 14 men (or less) because that is the only way that they can see them being able to compete with the opposing team has to stop. it is a selfish attitude as it ruins the spectacle of the competition of the event for the players, the officials, the spectators, and the paying public all over the World receiving the broadcast.

Simple solution: Get rid of the cards, go back to only sending off players for Punching, kicking, tripping and eye gouging, all other offences can be dealt with later by way of post match citings and long suspensions. If a player is sent off, he is replaced by a reserve. so that the competition remains at 15 men against 15.

by mikey_dragon Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:02 am

I don't condone foul play. It seems all the rugby fans in South Africa do as they're perfectly fine with Kolbe's dangerous play. O'Keefe and the TMO are okay with dangerous play too. If that is how the Lions gotta play then it's how they gotta play. You also have to wonder what more Rassie can do before he gets fined/sanctioned. I've seen players punished for bringing the game into disrepute, but they did it to a much lesser degree.

On the Biggar incident, well he got sandwiched between two props. Not sure it can get any worse for a fly-half. Looked like it was a bit of an elbow to the back actually.

by Old Man Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:13 am

The Oracle wrote:
Old Man wrote:
The Oracle wrote:
Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

Are you sure it would get them in deeper trouble? I mean, I'm not so sure given that we now know taking people out in the air is okay albeit very dangerous. Or is it only South Africans that can get away with it?

You can continue harping on the same incident if it makes you feel better. You have the right to feel aggrieved by it, but suggesting the Lions must go all out in the third test means you are condoning foul play, which will not solve anything.

Gatland wanted a red card against Faf in the SA A match.
You want a red card against Kolbe.
Someone else wants a red card against Faf for this test.
Someone else wants a red card against Watson for last test
Then someone wants a red card against Itoje for putting a knee into De Allende’s neck
Then Keith Wood suggests DVDM should be red carded.
Another complaint was Biggar needing a red card for falling down as if he was shot.

I have lost count on how many other red card complaints there was.

It is getting ridiculous.

This incessant, almost maniacal obsession with red cards under the auspices of “player safety” is getting to the point where rugby as we knew it will become unrecognisable.

Just listened to Pieter de Villiers discussing the issue of what players are coached to do. They are coached to follow the ball. If you now have to worry about the opposition player safety first and foremost, then you won’t tackle anyone.

It is a contact sport, if you want to guarantee player safety in a contact sport, remove the contact.

Lets all play touch rugby with no kicks.

Or............find the middle ground???

And what is the middle ground? You have 30 supremely talented athletes playing at a physicality level never seen before in a highly competitive sporting environment playing a contact sport. How do you find a middle ground that does not compromise injuries?

Tackling safely and penalising dangerous play, obvs. Like they do now. No need to remove the contact completely.

Just about every attempted tackle can be deemed dangerous play, hence all the maniacal calls for red cards. You first have the inconsistencies of interpretations, which as proven over and over causes disgruntled supporters viewing situational plays through their own perceptions which we all know is imprinted on us through experiences, influences in our own personal spheres, and then there is unconscious or conscious bias playing a role as well.

lets take two high tackles, Australia’s Koroibete on the French guy, frontal tackle shoulder hits head, the tackle for all money looks ligit in my view, yet deemed dangerous, red card, but dismissed by the judiciary.

Argentina player does a very similar frontal tackle also from a kick on a Welsh player, red carded, red card is upheld by the judiciary, and player banned for three matches.

Willie le Roux gets taken in the air, no card, Kolbe takes Murray in the air, yellow card. No consistency.

This happens on a weekly basis, so instead of discussing rugby, forums are dominated by who should have earned more cards.

Referees are having to perform under more and more pressure.

You could already see in this test, pick and drives, forward charges, the ball carriers are dipping so low into the tackle they are prone hit hit the tackler in the nutsack with their heads, tacklers inevitably make contact around the neck and head area. Thus according to WR, soon that will also be deemed dangerous, some have already been penalised in this series.

Where are we going to end up?

As I already stated, touch rugby with no kicks.

by Old Man Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:18 am

mikey_dragon wrote:I don't condone foul play. It seems all the rugby fans in South Africa do as they're perfectly fine with Kolbe's dangerous play. O'Keefe and the TMO are okay with dangerous play too. If that is how the Lions gotta play then it's how they gotta play. You also have to wonder what more Rassie can do before he gets fined/sanctioned. I've seen players punished for bringing the game into disrepute, but they did it to a much lesser degree.

On the Biggar incident, well he got sandwiched between two props. Not sure it can get any worse for a fly-half. Looked like it was a bit of an elbow to the back actually.

Don’t generalise. The majority of SA fans don’t condone foul play, in fact I personally don’t know any SA who does.

If Kolbe was foul play, then so was Watson, yet you won’t admit that.

Responding with “if that is how the Lions got to play, then it is how they gotto play” is simply nonsense. They have already played like that and got away with more than Kolbe did.

Even Kolbe was taken out in the Air, fell on his back, and summarily dragged to his feet by Vunipola. So lets stop playing the game of who is worse, it isn’t going to solve anything.

by aucklandlaurie Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:25 am

Old Man: What I meant to say was Rugby should go back to using skills, pace, purpose and persevernce and power to out play the opposition, not try and create a situation where the opposition team is reduced in the number of players.

by Old Man Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:28 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:Old Man: What I meant to say was Rugby should go back to using skills, pace, purpose and persevernce and power to out play the opposition, not try and create a situation where the opposition team is reduced in the number of players.

I am with you Laurie. For me rugby is starting to become the next SJW project, or the next metoo movement.

The more time society spend on these issues the more division they create.

If we continue to give it oxygen we soon won’t recognise the sport.

by Duty281 Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:33 am

Old Man wrote:Willie le Roux gets taken in the air, no card, Kolbe takes Murray in the air, yellow card. No consistency.

How the player is taken out and where he lands is the key factor, not just being taken in the air.

Biggar was tackled in the air, but because he landed safely and the tackle in question was only fractionally mis-timed it merited no further sanction, just a penalty. Murray was tackled in the air dangerously and recklessly and he landed on his head (not his back). That's where the differences arise in sanctions.

by mikey_dragon Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:36 am

Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I don't condone foul play. It seems all the rugby fans in South Africa do as they're perfectly fine with Kolbe's dangerous play. O'Keefe and the TMO are okay with dangerous play too. If that is how the Lions gotta play then it's how they gotta play. You also have to wonder what more Rassie can do before he gets fined/sanctioned. I've seen players punished for bringing the game into disrepute, but they did it to a much lesser degree.

On the Biggar incident, well he got sandwiched between two props. Not sure it can get any worse for a fly-half. Looked like it was a bit of an elbow to the back actually.

Don’t generalise. The majority of SA fans don’t condone foul play, in fact I personally don’t know any SA who does.

If Kolbe was foul play, then so was Watson, yet you won’t admit that.

Responding with “if that is how the Lions got to play, then it is how they gotto play” is simply nonsense. They have already played like that and got away with more than Kolbe did.

Even Kolbe was taken out in the Air, fell on his back, and summarily dragged to his feet by Vunipola. So lets stop playing the game of who is worse, it isn’t going to solve anything.

Literally everyone I've seen from SA is waving it on.

We can argue back and fourth about incidents yes, but the most clear and obvious dangerous play for me was Kolbe taking out Murray in the air. There is no clearer red card.

I wasn't entirely sure if a trip is a red card, if that's what you are referring to. If so then yeah, he had to go. It just goes to show how poor the officials were, right?

The worst thing about the whole situation is Rassie going unpunished for bringing the game into disrepute, and what he did seemed to have influenced ref's into accepting dangerous play. As much as I like to criticise ref's I really have no clue what spurred Rassie to go on such a rant. There was no one-side officiating in the first test. If this is acceptable and it goes on to be the norm, it's a lot more dangerous than what Kolbe did. I guess coaches with higher status can do these things, it's not acceptable.

by Old Man Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:37 am

Duty281 wrote:
Old Man wrote:Willie le Roux gets taken in the air, no card, Kolbe takes Murray in the air, yellow card. No consistency.

How the player is taken out and where he lands is the key factor, not just being taken in the air.

Biggar was tackled in the air, but because he landed safely and the tackle in question was only fractionally mis-timed it merited no further sanction, just a penalty. Murray was tackled in the air dangerously and recklessly and he landed on his head (not his back). That's where the differences arise in sanctions.

Murray landed leg first, if you want to get technical.

Le Roux was it not for falling on the ball, would have landed on his head

by Old Man Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:43 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I don't condone foul play. It seems all the rugby fans in South Africa do as they're perfectly fine with Kolbe's dangerous play. O'Keefe and the TMO are okay with dangerous play too. If that is how the Lions gotta play then it's how they gotta play. You also have to wonder what more Rassie can do before he gets fined/sanctioned. I've seen players punished for bringing the game into disrepute, but they did it to a much lesser degree.

On the Biggar incident, well he got sandwiched between two props. Not sure it can get any worse for a fly-half. Looked like it was a bit of an elbow to the back actually.

Don’t generalise. The majority of SA fans don’t condone foul play, in fact I personally don’t know any SA who does.

If Kolbe was foul play, then so was Watson, yet you won’t admit that.

Responding with “if that is how the Lions got to play, then it is how they gotto play” is simply nonsense. They have already played like that and got away with more than Kolbe did.

Even Kolbe was taken out in the Air, fell on his back, and summarily dragged to his feet by Vunipola. So lets stop playing the game of who is worse, it isn’t going to solve anything.

Literally everyone I've seen from SA is waving it on.

We can argue back and fourth about incidents yes, but the most clear and obvious dangerous play for me was Kolbe taking out Murray in the air. There is no clearer red card.

I wasn't entirely sure if a trip is a red card, if that's what you are referring to. If so then yeah, he had to go. It just goes to show how poor the officials were, right?

The worst thing about the whole situation is Rassie going unpunished for bringing the game into disrepute, and what he did seemed to have influenced ref's into accepting dangerous play. As much as I like to criticise ref's I really have no clue what spurred Rassie to go on such a rant. There was no one-side officiating in the first test. If this is acceptable and it goes on to be the norm, it's a lot more dangerous than what Kolbe did. I guess coaches with higher status can do these things, it's not acceptable.

I don’t know what Rassie was thinking in making that video, I am sure he must know there will be a sanction from WR. He has to.

Maybe he did succeed in scaring referees to steer clear of foul lay, if he did then it worked too well, because it worked for both teams.

Kilbe according to Keith Wood would be a red card in the Premiership, in SA yellow. Again shows inconsistency in interpretation.

You have to admit it is all getting a bit pathetic how supporters are becoming more concerned with cards than performance, perhaps it is as Laurie suggests, lets get the opposition down to 14, because then we have a better chance of winning. Sadly that can work both ways.

by Old Man Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:47 am

Anyway, I think I have had my fill discussing this series, it has turned sour for me. Rugby seems secondary to the discussions

by alive555 Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:01 am

Now Hoggs categorically denied (in a letter to the press) the accusation of biting, Le Roux is now perfectly positioned to show those bite marks and bruises he's got on his left upper arm.

by aucklandlaurie Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:43 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

Are you sure it would get them in deeper trouble? I mean, I'm not so sure given that we now know taking people out in the air is okay albeit very dangerous. Or is it only South Africans that can get away with it?

You can continue harping on the same incident if it makes you feel better. You have the right to feel aggrieved by it, but suggesting the Lions must go all out in the third test means you are condoning foul play, which will not solve anything.

Gatland wanted a red card against Faf in the SA A match.
You want a red card against Kolbe.
Someone else wants a red card against Faf for this test.
Someone else wants a red card against Watson for last test
Then someone wants a red card against Itoje for putting a knee into De Allende’s neck
Then Keith Wood suggests DVDM should be red carded.
Another complaint was Biggar needing a red card for falling down as if he was shot.

I have lost count on how many other red card complaints there was.

It is getting ridiculous.

This incessant, almost maniacal obsession with red cards under the auspices of “player safety” is getting to the point where rugby as we knew it will become unrecognisable.

Just listened to Pieter de Villiers discussing the issue of what players are coached to do. They are coached to follow the ball. If you now have to worry about the opposition player safety first and foremost, then you won’t tackle anyone.

It is a contact sport, if you want to guarantee player safety in a contact sport, remove the contact.

Lets all play touch rugby with no kicks.

Sadly this is the central issue that Rugby at an International level has to address.

Teams, coaching staff, and fans badgering the officials to issue coloured cards so as to reduce the number of opposition to 14 men (or less) because that is the only way that they can see them being able to compete with the opposing team has to stop. it is a selfish attitude as it ruins the spectacle of the competition of the event for the players, the officials, the spectators, and the paying public all over the World receiving the broadcast.

Simple solution: Get rid of the cards, go back to only sending off players for Punching, biting, kicking, tripping and eye gouging, all other offences can be dealt with later by way of post match citings and long suspensions. If a player is sent off, he is replaced by a reserve. so that the competition remains at 15 men against 15.

by R!skysports Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:43 am

Seems Sinclair has now been cited for a bite

by R!skysports Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:52 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

Are you sure it would get them in deeper trouble? I mean, I'm not so sure given that we now know taking people out in the air is okay albeit very dangerous. Or is it only South Africans that can get away with it?

You can continue harping on the same incident if it makes you feel better. You have the right to feel aggrieved by it, but suggesting the Lions must go all out in the third test means you are condoning foul play, which will not solve anything.

Gatland wanted a red card against Faf in the SA A match.
You want a red card against Kolbe.
Someone else wants a red card against Faf for this test.
Someone else wants a red card against Watson for last test
Then someone wants a red card against Itoje for putting a knee into De Allende’s neck
Then Keith Wood suggests DVDM should be red carded.
Another complaint was Biggar needing a red card for falling down as if he was shot.

I have lost count on how many other red card complaints there was.

It is getting ridiculous.

This incessant, almost maniacal obsession with red cards under the auspices of “player safety” is getting to the point where rugby as we knew it will become unrecognisable.

Just listened to Pieter de Villiers discussing the issue of what players are coached to do. They are coached to follow the ball. If you now have to worry about the opposition player safety first and foremost, then you won’t tackle anyone.

It is a contact sport, if you want to guarantee player safety in a contact sport, remove the contact.

Lets all play touch rugby with no kicks.

Sadly this is the central issue that Rugby at an International level has to address.

Teams, coaching staff, and fans badgering the officials to issue coloured cards so as to reduce the number of opposition to 14 men (or less) because that is the only way that they can see them being able to compete with the opposing team has to stop. it is a selfish attitude as it ruins the spectacle of the competition of the event for the players, the officials, the spectators, and the paying public all over the World receiving the broadcast.

Simple solution: Get rid of the cards, go back to only sending off players for Punching, biting, kicking, tripping and eye gouging, all other offences can be dealt with later by way of post match citings and long suspensions. If a player is sent off, he is replaced by a reserve. so that the competition remains at 15 men against 15.

Sadly that is not really what most want.

Deliberate foul play that is dangerous should get the highest sanction

Accidentally foul play should be looked at and try to be sympathetic to the game.

However to say get rid of cards is really short sighted when our sport is going through a long term injury crises with ex players getting brain damage and life threatening injuries.

We need
To make the sport safe and that means there needs
To be a real deterrent to dangerous play. Sadly in the 2nd test that was thrown out the window and the red lost control (of both sides)

SA won by being the better side and fully deserved it.

But that does not negate the fact that there dangerous play that was ignored

by aucklandlaurie Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:58 am

R!skysports wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Old Man wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Well dangerous play is clearly okay, let's hope the Lions give it out more in the final test.

They gave quite a bit in this test, more would only get them in deeper trouble

Are you sure it would get them in deeper trouble? I mean, I'm not so sure given that we now know taking people out in the air is okay albeit very dangerous. Or is it only South Africans that can get away with it?

You can continue harping on the same incident if it makes you feel better. You have the right to feel aggrieved by it, but suggesting the Lions must go all out in the third test means you are condoning foul play, which will not solve anything.

Gatland wanted a red card against Faf in the SA A match.
You want a red card against Kolbe.
Someone else wants a red card against Faf for this test.
Someone else wants a red card against Watson for last test
Then someone wants a red card against Itoje for putting a knee into De Allende’s neck
Then Keith Wood suggests DVDM should be red carded.
Another complaint was Biggar needing a red card for falling down as if he was shot.

I have lost count on how many other red card complaints there was.

It is getting ridiculous.

This incessant, almost maniacal obsession with red cards under the auspices of “player safety” is getting to the point where rugby as we knew it will become unrecognisable.

Just listened to Pieter de Villiers discussing the issue of what players are coached to do. They are coached to follow the ball. If you now have to worry about the opposition player safety first and foremost, then you won’t tackle anyone.

It is a contact sport, if you want to guarantee player safety in a contact sport, remove the contact.

Lets all play touch rugby with no kicks.

Sadly this is the central issue that Rugby at an International level has to address.

Teams, coaching staff, and fans badgering the officials to issue coloured cards so as to reduce the number of opposition to 14 men (or less) because that is the only way that they can see them being able to compete with the opposing team has to stop. it is a selfish attitude as it ruins the spectacle of the competition of the event for the players, the officials, the spectators, and the paying public all over the World receiving the broadcast.

Simple solution: Get rid of the cards, go back to only sending off players for Punching, biting, kicking, tripping and eye gouging, all other offences can be dealt with later by way of post match citings and long suspensions. If a player is sent off, he is replaced by a reserve. so that the competition remains at 15 men against 15.

Sadly that is not really what most want.

Deliberate foul play that is dangerous should get the highest sanction

Accidentally foul play should be looked at and try to be sympathetic to the game.

However to say get rid of cards is really short sighted when our sport is going through a long term injury crises with ex players getting brain damage and life threatening injuries.

We need
To make the sport safe and that means there needs
To be a real deterrent to dangerous play. Sadly in the 2nd test that was thrown out the window and the red lost control (of both sides)

SA won by being the better side and fully deserved it.

But that does not negate the fact that there dangerous play that was ignored

There was no ignored Dangerous play.

by flyhalffactory Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:16 am

Kolbe didn't have a clear run, Biggar moves late but definitely Kolbe hasn't a totally clear run, he also kept his eyes on the ball throughout, it cannot be anything but a yellow.
Anyway onto the 3rd Test
Vermeulen just back in the SA camp is a massive boost. If PSDT is fit, Reinach in for Faf and Vermeulen starting then an even fitter SA 23 is frightening.
We will not take them in the air, we definitely haven't the players to win the key area of the breakdown so we need to have some curve balls.
Defensively we need to bulk & man up in the scrum, we need to compete in the air and we have to create a platform for the 1st & 2nd receivers, so

1. Jones, 2. LCD, 3. Furlong
4. Beard, 5. AWJ
6. Lawes or Beirne, 7. Watson, 8. Conan
16. Vunipola, 17. George, 18. Fagerson
19. Itoje, 20. Navidi, 21. Faletau

Offensively we need to look at making the boks turn through the midfield, we need the halfbacks to have speed of thought and acceleration, we still need a defensive general who can cover the risk takers and we need a back 3 who are safe in the air, blisteringly rapid and know their way to the whitewash so;
9. Price, 10. Dancer
12. Henshaw, 13. Harris
11. Adams, 15. Sanjay, 14. LRZ
22. Biggar, 23. Daly

by Soul Requiem Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:23 am

Beard in for Itoje, that's hilarious.

by bsando Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:23 am

A punt at the team this week coming then..

Sutherland
George
Furlong
Itoje
AWJ
Beirne
Watson
Faletau
Price
Russell
Williams
Aki
Henshaw
LRZ
Hogg

LCD, Vunipola, Fagerson, Henderson, Lawes, Curry, Murray, Harris

by **RDW** Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:27 am

Folks I've made a third test thread to move the focus onto the next game - not as good as a GC original but it'll do!

https://www.606v2.com/t70317-south-africa-vs-british-and-irish-lions-7th-august#3991570

by flyhalffactory Mon Aug 02, 2021 8:35 am

Soul Requiem wrote:Beard in for Itoje, that's hilarious.

Why is it hilarious?.
Itoje has had two very good 1st 40 mins in both tests but also had a poor 2nd 40. Mostert getting more match fit has arguably had the better of him. Beard has had a very good tour, arguably better than Itoje coming up to the tests, he has more presence in the key area where we have been poor i.e. the breakdown, he will add weight to the pack and he's a proven partner to AWJ having won 2 grand slams alongside him.
Is that funny?

by TJ Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:07 pm

There was no ignored Dangerous play.

Most of the bleating about cards comes from folk who do not understand the laws and guidance. It was a very difficult game to referee, there are process in place to look at stuff, they followed the process properly to arrive at the right decisions.

The whineing and whinging about the ref on here is frankly pathetic

by No 7&1/2 Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:14 pm

TJ wrote:
There was no ignored Dangerous play.

Most of the bleating about cards comes from folk who do not understand the laws and guidance. It was a very difficult game to referee, there are process in place to look at stuff, they followed the process properly to arrive at the right decisions.

The whineing and whinging about the ref on here is frankly pathetic

That's just simply incorrect.

This series to me is reminding me of those couple of Ireland NZ games. Teams not used to be being beaten just turning up the physicality and doing so illegally.

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