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World T20 discussion thread

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msp83
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Thu 09 Sep 2021, 11:18 am

First topic message reminder :

This is fast approaching in the UAE, and squads are beginning to be announced. England have announced theirs this morning

England's preliminary squad for the World T20;

Jason Roy
Jos Buttler
Dawid Malan
Jonny Bairstow
Liam Livingstone
Eoin Morgan
Sam Billings
Moeen Ali
Sam Curran
Chris Woakes
David Willey
Adil Rashid
Mark Wood
Chris Jordan
Tymal Mills

Reserves: James Vince, Liam Dawson, Tom Curran

Looks a solid squad, albeit the team has taken a hit in recent months with Archer's injury and then Stokes's withdrawal from international duty.
Billings in as the main batting backup, makes sense to me. He's played well in limited opportunity the past few summers.
I am a touch surprised both Woakes and Willey are in the squad...seems like they both do the same role to me?
Seems harsh, but happy no Tom Curran. He's not played well enough to be included.
I see some "why no Parkinson?" and it does seem a tad weird he isn't in reserve...but ultimately in T20 can you afford to carry someone like him, who while is a good bowler, is a liability in the field and offers absolutely nothing with the bat. I can see why Dawson is the chosen reserve over him, with those considerations.

I think the likely XI is;

Roy
Buttler
Malan
Bairstow
Livingstone
Morgan
Ali
Woakes
Rashid
Wood
Mills

The real selection choices in there are between Woakes/Jordan, and Moeen/Sam Curran. Rest looks fairly set in stone to me
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sat 30 Oct 2021, 5:51 pm

On a serious note, this is doing the Aussies NRR serious serious damage - West Indies and South Africa must be loving this
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Post by king_carlos Sat 30 Oct 2021, 5:52 pm

Bairstow hits spin so well. In tighter games against better spin attacks it could be vital for England during the middle overs.

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Post by guildfordbat Sat 30 Oct 2021, 5:53 pm

Outstanding display from Buttler.

Enjoy your earlier night than expected, Alfie and Joey.

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Post by alfie Sat 30 Oct 2021, 5:53 pm

The only drawback to this system of bowling the other team out for SFA and letting the openers go nuts is that the rest of the batsmen don't get warm...

Can't complain of course but it wouldn't be ideal should they find themselves 20/2 chasing 175 in a knockout match and the next few bats had hardly faced ten balls each in the group stage . A minor worry.


All done in 11.4. Comprehensive Smile

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Post by eirebilly Sat 30 Oct 2021, 5:53 pm

The Aussies are gone in this World cup. They will not recover from this humping.
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Post by Old Man Sat 30 Oct 2021, 5:54 pm

eirebilly wrote:The Aussies are gone in this World cup. They will not recover from this humping.

Don't forget they beat SA, if SA lose to England Australia will go throguh due to an extra win.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 30 Oct 2021, 5:55 pm

It doesn't seem fair to have Bairstow coming in at four, that batting line up is formidable.

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Post by eirebilly Sat 30 Oct 2021, 5:56 pm

Old Man wrote:
eirebilly wrote:The Aussies are gone in this World cup. They will not recover from this humping.

Don't forget they beat SA, if SA lose to England Australia will go throguh due to an extra win.
I think the Aussies lose next match myself after this humping. SA to go through regardless for me.
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Post by Old Man Sat 30 Oct 2021, 5:56 pm

I can only hope.

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Post by alfie Sat 30 Oct 2021, 5:57 pm

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:On a serious note, this is doing the Aussies NRR serious serious damage - West Indies and South Africa must be loving this

Don't think it will matter as they should still beat West Indies and Bangladesh - unless this battering does their heads in .
But yes , if they drop a game , the other sides will take some comfort - though it would take a lot to "catch" West Indies run rate...

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Post by Pal Joey Sat 30 Oct 2021, 6:01 pm

Massive comprehensive win for England. Lots of happy people on here... except for me of course.

Australia now have a much steeper mountain to climb but on this performance I can't see them picking up the pieces before their next match. It just wasn't their day and England are surely one step closer to having another chance in the final. Most likely against Pakistan or India I'd say.


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Post by alfie Sat 30 Oct 2021, 6:05 pm

For once a bowler gets the MoTM... Fair enough , Jordan was excellent.

But after that Buttler assault it seems a bit hard not to award him ; even if he didn't have any pressure after the first few overs.

Spare a thought for Moeen. Not asked to bowl , no chance to bat...did he still have to pay his match fees ?

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Post by msp83 Sat 30 Oct 2021, 6:12 pm

England utterly savaging Australia, who's lower order did well to at least get them thus far after that terrible start. But with this England lineup, that score just wasn't going to be anything. They really are the side to beat in limited overs... The shorter the format gets, the more lethal their batting becomes.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sat 30 Oct 2021, 6:17 pm

Well that was a massacre. Far more one-sided than what anybody thought it would be. England got off to a great start bowling and just never let their foot off of Australia's throat. They cased down the meagre total impressively and it must be said England have been the most impressive side so far in the tournament but have they peaked too early? Australia need to regroup and come again to still find a way through to the semis. Do-able but certainly not a given.
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Post by msp83 Sat 30 Oct 2021, 6:19 pm

And a much tighter game earlier in the day, and as I hoped, South Africa emerged on the right side of it. David Miller did it after a very long while. He has been far too inconsistent for SA and in the IPL and elsewhere for long, but just when they needed it, he delivered. QdK was rightly back, and was classy behind the stumps though he didn't deliver with the bat. Bavuma held the innings together but would have to get his running and strike rate to a more functional level. Shamsi was brilliant, and SA bowling unit did well as a collective. This seems the tougher group, and if South Africa are to join England, then their batting will have to do better. They have too many openers in that lineup, not enough power hitting down the order. KG at 8, really? Though he played his part today of course...

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Post by Soul Requiem Sat 30 Oct 2021, 6:21 pm

England have produced a fair few of these performances against Australia in recent years. Once they get after that bowling attack they do have a habit of crumbling. There is a tendency however to assume the Aussies are better than they actually are in white ball cricket. The gulf between the teams is pretty big.

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Post by Old Man Sat 30 Oct 2021, 6:22 pm

SA hasn't been consistent for some time now, I don't expect them to beat England, if they beat Bangaladesh is will give them some motivation vs England in their last pool match, but they jsut don't have enough on form or world beaters in their squad

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Post by VTR Sat 30 Oct 2021, 6:23 pm

Well of course Jordan gets man of the match on the day several of us question his place in the side. Guess there's a reason none of us are England selectors!

Another absolute drubbing, only issue I see with England so far is the batting hasn't had to perform under any pressure, though on the other hand they will still be feeling pretty fresh and confident

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Post by Duty281 Sat 30 Oct 2021, 6:26 pm

Pretty comfortable for England as expected. Buttler at his best. Three comprehensive wins, but yet to see what England can do batting first and defending a target.

South Africa and Australia on 4 points, Sri Lanka and the West Indies on 2. Sri Lanka and South Africa still have to play England. We could easily end up with a jam with three teams on six points and it being decided on NRR - if South Africa beat Bangladesh but lose to England; West Indies beat Sri Lanka and Australia; Australia beat Bangladesh but lose to the West Indies...that's three teams locked on six points, currently NRR favours South Africa. Can't predict or assume anything in this battle for second-place because in all four of the games remaining that don't include England, it's difficult to pick a favourite.

The other Group not as well developed because only five games have been played, but Pakistan have got top spot locked down like England. Afghanistan have got Namibia tomorrow and it's a great chance to record a win and put pressure on India and New Zealand. Afghanistan aren't quite out of it, if they can beat Namibia and NZ they'll be on six points which may be enough if India have further slip-ups. And, you never know, they might beat India when it comes down to it.

Speaking of India they've got New Zealand tomorrow after having a long week to stew over the Pakistan defeat. You'd anticipate India being strong favourites, but if they lose they'll be facing an early exit so the pressure is on.

Very good tournament shaping up.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sat 30 Oct 2021, 9:43 pm

Soul Requiem wrote:England have produced a fair few of these performances against Australia in recent years. Once they get after that bowling attack they do have a habit of crumbling. There is a tendency however to assume the Aussies are better than they actually are in white ball cricket. The gulf between the teams is pretty big.

Agree Soul - and it has been really since England won that ODI series in Australia after the last Ashes tour.

In fact the Aussies I think are in a spot of bother in this tournament now - whilst favoured against Bangladesh and West Indies, they are by no means going to breeze past either side and suddenly their NRR is in serious bother. Beyond that, I am perplexed by their selections/planning...the complete anthesis of England, and think Shane Watson/Simon Doull on comms were very good in pointing out some of them.

Mitch Marsh has been superb at 3 in 2021 - 6 scores of 40+ across 10 knocks in West Indies/Bangladesh on similar wickets, by far and away their best player in those series (and generally a pretty good T20 biffer), yet has been shifted from that position after the 1st game and now out of the side today. If it's a straight call between him and Smith, it should be Marsh everytime in this format.
Wade is a t20 opener for his BBL side, and most of the year for Australia, his stats against spin in the middle overs are *woeful*...yet the Aussies have him down at 6/7. I don't rate him particularly as a player (I believe KC said earlier, Inglis would be a better option and I agree), but you're asking him in a major tournament to play a role he's rarely ever done for the t20i side!
I think it was Watson talking about how the side barely ever plays together, it's often just 5/6 of the "first XI" and depth players...I think this is the first time Starc/Hazlewood/Cummins have played t20is together (this tournament) would be a good example of that.
I did point out pre-game that their "5th bowler overs" were taken down by Sri Lanka in the last game...but to suddenly go away from being batting heavy after one game? Smacks of a bit of fly by night thinking.

As for in game today...when the couple of early wickets did go down, not adjusting the batting lineup was weird - Stoinis/Wade both bat high up in franchise cricket, and prefer pace on the ball, would have thought they would have been much better options to come in after the 2nd wicket rather than exposing Maxwell early to seam. Also meant when Livingstone was on in the middle overs, no Maxwell to take down the spin! (and as said Wade reeks against spin). Just very muddled.
PJ also very astutely noted earlier re: Warner's poor form, despite the runs in the last game - he had a stinking IPL, and hasn't looked much better in this so far.

The Bangladesh game being a day game certainly exposes them a bit more to the spinners - West Indies game being on the bigger ground in Abu Dhabi should help them (they should gain at least 15/20 runs on fielding/running between wickets alone in that game) but there is a decent chance that could be a winner takes all affair. Certainly is an intriguingly poised group now!

As for England - very very good again obviously, but this really is the type of performance we see 8/10 times from them these days. Morgan has them well drilled as a unit, clear plans and roles and obviously the batting lineup is just a bit ridiculously good!
Did think they bowled a few too many slot balls at the death - I wonder if bowling Woakes through his overs early might be a good idea when he's bowling so well in the future...? A bad day for Mills, but that's going to happen sometimes.
A note again for their fielding - it really is pretty much immaculate in this format. Some of the outfielding from Bairstow/Roy/Livingstone is electric. Also, has Sir Christopher ever dropped a catch? Cool

Now head for two night games in Sharjah - one with a quick turnaround on Monday against Sri Lanka. Be interesting to see how they adapt to the clearly different conditions at that ground. Would fancy they have too much for Sri Lanka, but if they lose the toss, it'll be tough to defend and the Sri Lankans have generally done better than expected throughout.

Big day tomorrow - actually slightly fancy Namibia to do ok against Afghanistan. They look a decent outfit to me and should be able to keep it closer than Scotland managed.
Then of course India/NZ - hard to see any outcome bar an Indian win, but a week off to stew on the Pakistan defeat...who knows. Good news for NZ that Guptill has been cleared as fit, certainly the type of player who could help them pull off the upset
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Post by guildfordbat Sat 30 Oct 2021, 9:48 pm

alfie wrote:For once a bowler gets the MoTM... Fair enough , Jordan was excellent.

But after that Buttler assault it seems a bit hard not to award him ; even if he didn't have any pressure after the first few overs.

Spare a thought for Moeen. Not asked to bowl , no chance to bat...did he still have to pay his match fees ?

Two bowlers got MotM awards today and both with returns of 3/17 from their 4 overs - Shamsi and Jordan.

Agree with the Shamsi decision although I did wonder if Miller's last over biffing might have elbowed him out. Fair enough imo this award went to their best bowler. South Africa's bowling was often tidy and their fielding extremely good. A small bit of praise as well for Markram's opening spell and Bavuma's handling of him. Two neat overs (0/8) from the part timer at the start and then that was that - dead right! It may not matter much by the time of England's final Group game but we still shouldn't allow him to get in a similar groove.

Very good or even excellent as Jordan was, Buttler would have got my MotM vote in the other game. As well as the way in which he inflicted the destruction, he also merits credit - and possibly a tad more than allocated by Alfie - for easing the pressure on the team early in his innings. Add to that, a couple of snaffles and a run out. Seals it for me. Without Buttler's magnificent innings, Woakes would also have been a strong contender for his spell and wonder catch in the power play which were so effective.

Maybe Moeen's place in today's team was due to his wife doing the teas. Wink








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Post by guildfordbat Sat 30 Oct 2021, 10:26 pm

That's an excellent post, Olly. Great knowledge of the current world game.

Although I appreciate your comment about Woakes' catching was made with a bit of a smile, that's a part of his game I've long admired and feel continues to be under rated. In a Surrey v Warks 50 over game at Guildford one Sunday about seven or eight years back, I saw him take three boundary catches ranging from good to extremely good which live on in the memory.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sun 31 Oct 2021, 4:47 am

Hi everyone Very Happy

I agree with most of what Olly wrote above, particularly Australia's confusion over their batting line-up. They've not been helped by senior players being apparently quite reluctant to turn out for their T20 side, but they really don't seem to have identified clear roles, in particular in the middle-order. A lot of countries have faced a similar issue, namely that their best batsmen all bat in the top 3 for their franchises/counties, so finding a good 4-7 is not easy.

England solved it by deciding to stick Bairstow at 4 where he could dominate the spinners, and he's taken to that role with aplomb. But it's also worth mentioning that Moeen and Livingstone have almost exclusively batted at 5-7 in the national team, even when they were playing in the top 3 at franchise level. Clarity of purpose there.

Whereas Australia on their recent Bangladesh tour had Wade opening, and I think at times Stoinis in the top 3. Now they're being asked to be the finishers instead. Maxwell has been up and down the order. Marsh was at 3 in Bangladesh, but batted down the order in this tournament until he was dropped, and so on.

I'm not sure I agree with Olly about them picking Agar though. I think this was a reasonable response to the threat posed by England's batting line-up: essentially they felt they couldn't get away with Maxwell in the powerplay at all, and just didn't feel confident in getting through 4 overs of Maxwell/Marsh/Stoinis. I think it was a fair call, albeit one that didn't work because their batting failed.

I also agree with those who said that ideally Morgan would have liked to have snuck in at least one over of Moeen somewhere to give him more flexibility at the death. While Mills didn't bowl particularly well here, it's a big ask to require someone to bowl 3 of the last 6 overs IMO. However, I also see where Morgan was coming from. He didn't want to bowl Moeen while Finch was at the crease, and I think that was understandable: Finch wasn't going that well, but could potentially have cut loose against Moeen, which might have launched Australia to something more defendable.

I actually think Morgan's captaincy is quite underrated at times. McCullum referred to him "captaining out of his skin" in the recent IPL, and I think he's quietly become an extremely astute tactician. he's also very much moulded England into "Morgan's team" if that makes sense.

Finally, Buttler Very Happy Not much else to say really, you can see why England have invested a lot in getting him at the top of the order when he plays like he did yesterday...

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Post by alfie Sun 31 Oct 2021, 6:31 am

Nice to see you back on the cricket board , MFC...

After some sleep and reflection , a few points :

Fantastic performance from England. Total demolition of an Australia side who looked a bit shell shocked by the end.  But we should remember this still just a group game and in t20 the unexpected can still happen occasionally ; so a little to early to predict the final - or even the qualifiers.

Obviously I expect England (and Pakistan) to top their groups , undefeated : even Pakistan surely can't lose to Scotland or Namibia and England's form is ridiculous so far. Worth noting , however , that if England were to get careless and somehow contrive to lose to Sri Lanka on Monday (unlikely , but just possible in this format ) ; and SA beat Bangladesh , while Australia bounce back to defeat Bangladesh and West Indies (hardly impossible despite their disaster yesterday) ; then England would be playing SA for survival in the last game...
Unlikely , of course. But means no margin for slip ups in this group.

Assuming England keep going the way they are , Australia remain well placed to get second spot as long as they keep their heads. Two wins down and two pretty winnable games to come : unlike SA they don't have England still in their path.

SA would also reach 4 wins should they beat Bangladesh and England. And if it came down to three teams with 8 points each England would surely be first on run rate and SA second. Their problem is that England look extremely tough to beat .

I really can't see West Indies getting through. Even winning both games (big ask on recent form) will just give them 6 points ; and with SA odds on to beat Bangladesh I struggle to see them not staying ahead of West Indies on run rate. Think it will be between SA and Australia - and the Aussies still with their fate entirely in their own hands.

Lots of permutations (hell , even Sri Lanka could finish up with six points and just about in the mix!) but I think the most likely result is England top and Australia second as long as they can get their act together. Reading Olly and MFC ,and considering that prospect for my next post...

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Post by alfie Sun 31 Oct 2021, 8:54 am

OK , as promised threatened : my thoughts on Australia's woes :

I think both Olly and MFC are correct to focus on the rather muddled thinking around their batting order. There is a touch of trying to fit all the square pegs etc (bit like England football Lampard/Gerrard etc in days gone by ?) and that - along with the fact that they have rarely had the full squad together in recent years to work on plans - has led to the current confusion and questionable choices.
Smith is a wonderful player ; but t20 is his weakest format. If he is to play it has to be at three (the Malan role) but playing him there has squeezed out Marsh - the form player. Also removing the latter as a bowling option. Hurt them yesterday as Marsh would surely have been a far better choice at four after the early wickets.
I am not as opposed to Wade as some on here. Inglis might be getting better by not playing ; and as the opener's slot is not available I don't mind him batting at six/seven.
Maxwell really should be shielded from the early overs. Confess I am not a fan of The Big Show anyway ; but he is surely best tasked with carving up the spinners in the middle and/or the death bowlers.
Not altogether sure about Stoinis : best as a finisher I think ; but may have to be shuffled around to suit the situation.
And Warner : I think PJ hit it on the head earlier. He was largely kidding himself about his form when it was lousy through the IPL and the earlier matches : and still doing so when he got lucky against Sri Lanka. Yeah , 65 at a very good rate : but he could have been out three times in the first few overs and surely must have slipped the keeper a tenner to drop that absurd dolly. Not saying he can't still play a great t20 innings - but I don't expect him to do so very often these days.
Finch will be glad to get some runs. But he has to reconsider the team make up now.

Five bowlers or four plus bits ? Either could work if the right ones are placed in the right spots. Starc has had one good game and two poor games but no one is leaving him out. Hazlewood , Cummins must be a lock ; so it comes down to spin or "spin"... And as England are just very good at destroying any attack (especially with Buttler in that mood) I am not writing anyone off on the strength of yesterday.

My solution ? Two possible templates .

1/ Finch Warner Smith Marsh Maxwell Stoinis Wade Cummins Starc Hazlewood Zampa. (bowling to be shuffled around with Marsh/Stoinis/Maxwell to share 4 overs)
or
2/ Finch Warner Marsh Stoinis Maxwell Wade Agar Cummins Starc Hazlewood Zampa. (and you could vary the order a bit depending on how the openers went)
Big call to dump Smith so I am not sure they will come at that but it would probably be my call.

Still fancy them to beat Bangladesh who really have been poor. But they need to summon their inner reserves of fight if they want to stay in this contest . I am sure they would love to have another chance to take on England (and there is only one match in which that could happen !) as this will have really hurt. Only had to look at the faces of Langer and Finch to see that.

Next : England and what (if anything) they need to think about...

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 31 Oct 2021, 11:15 am

Afghanistan 114/4 off 16. Namibia certainly not throwing in the towel.

Good bowling from Loftie-Eaton to go with his great name. Smile

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Post by Duty281 Sun 31 Oct 2021, 11:23 am

Mujeeb out injured for this game. Unsure if it's just this one or further matches. Will put a huge dent in Afghanistan's hopes if they were to lose his services for the tournament.

In slightly odder news, Asghar Afghan (currently batting) is retiring with immediate effect after this match, he won't be available for further games. He's been an ever-present in Afghanistan's incredible rise in world cricket over the past 15 years.

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Post by VTR Sun 31 Oct 2021, 11:35 am

I am still trying to get my head round retiring half way through the tournament. I will admit, I haven't read all coverage of it, but on the bits I did read it didn't explain the timing

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sun 31 Oct 2021, 11:44 am

Yeah I'm with VTR on this: the idea of retiring in the middle of a tournament (or a series) just seems a bit strange to me, unless there's something else going on?

Anyway, Afghanistan with a good finish to end on 160/5. I suspect even with Mujeeb out that will be quite a few too many for Namibia.

Back on alfie's posts about the Aus team, I broadly agree with his two options, except I'd have Smith ahead of Stoinis in option 2. I don't really rate Stoinis that much at international level: he basically has two shots, the straight drive and pull, and if you keep it away from those scoring areas I don't think he's up to much. Smith may be weaker at T20, but is still a better option for me.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 31 Oct 2021, 11:46 am

Afghanistan make 160, early on they were threatening 180+ but a middle overs wobble cost them that. Should be enough to defeat Namibia. Afghanistan's NRR is already good, but it could get a little boost if they win comfortably.

Asghar Afghan has said on his retirement: "I want to give chance to youngsters. I think this is a good opportunity for that. Most people are asking me why now but it's something I cannot explain. In the last match, we were hurt too much, and that's why I decided to retire. There are plenty of memories, it's difficult for me, but I have to retire."

Hope it's nothing sinister, but it does sound rather odd that's he doing it immediately and not waiting a week or two until the tournament is over for his side. The only comparison I can draw is when Swann retired halfway through an Ashes series, though that was over as a contest by that point.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 31 Oct 2021, 11:48 am

VTR wrote:I am still trying to get my head round retiring half way through the tournament. I will admit, I haven't read all coverage of it, but on the bits I did read it didn't explain the timing

It's just very strange. Afghanistan had issues before the 2019 World Cup regarding the captaincy or selections didn't they? Suggests the squad isn't united.

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Post by alfie Sun 31 Oct 2021, 11:59 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
VTR wrote:I am still trying to get my head round retiring half way through the tournament. I will admit, I haven't read all coverage of it, but on the bits I did read it didn't explain the timing

It's just very strange. Afghanistan had issues before the 2019 World Cup regarding the captaincy or selections didn't they? Suggests the squad isn't united.

Agree this is totally weird. Makes no sense to me at all.

He is apparently going out on a high of sorts anyway after making 31 today at the decent rate of 134.78 so it doesn't seem to be a form issue...

Guess there might be more on some Afghan's minds than just cricket at the moment.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sun 31 Oct 2021, 12:02 pm

Yeah those comments from Afghan don't really help much: "we were hurt too much, and that's why I decided to retire." Hmmm.

Off the top of my head, in recent times I can think of three retirements mid-test series. Swann, as Duty mentioned, mainly because he felt his elbow injury was getting too much. Herath retired after one test of England's previous tour (the one before last winter's) IIRC, although that was a planned retirement because he wanted to bow out at his home ground or something. Then recently Mahmudullah retired from test cricket mid-series against Zimbabwe. Although no reason was officially given, most people's understanding was that he was annoyed at being ignored from the test team for a few years, then recalled for what might be called a second tier tour, so had a bit of a sulk (he's still T20 captain mind you).

I certainly can't recall a mid-tournament retirement before. All a bit curious.

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 31 Oct 2021, 12:19 pm

Nasser Hussain ended his playing career after scoring a century against New Zealand in the first Test of their tour of England in 2004. He gave some guff about wanting to give youth a chance but it seemed clear to me he wanted to go out on a high.

Didn't like that then, just as I don't like Afghan's retirement now. Reeks of putting yourself ahead of the team. If you sign up for a series, you have an obligation to see it through.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sun 31 Oct 2021, 12:34 pm

The Nasser one made some sense though. Strauss had come in for the injured Vaughan (who IIRC had copped one on the knee trying to sweep a net bowler or something), and obviously scored loads of runs. Vaughan was the captain (and playing well), so would naturally come back in for the next test, which would have meant Strauss missing out (presumably) despite scoring a century followed by 80-odd. There was also the irony of Nasser having run Strauss out in Strauss's second innings, depriving him of the twin centuries on debut that he looked destined for.

Nasser talks about this in his autobiography. He states that he never felt he wanted to "overstay his welcome" and that seeing Strauss in full flow looking so comfortable in the Test arena convinced him that it was time to go. He's also honest enough to admit that him scoring a match-winning century in his final innings felt too much like a fairytale to pass up. How much weight you ascribe to those two feelings might depend on how cynical you are, and since guildford has been around since at least W.G. Grace's "They've come to see me bat, not you bowl" comments, he's probably earned the right to a healthy amount of cynicism Very Happy. Certainly it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if he'd run Strauss out, got out himself, and England promptly collapsed to defeat...

Back to Afghan again, I do think alfie raises a reasonable point about the Afghanistan team's minds being inevitably on other matters given the current situation in their country. I really can't imagine how difficult the whole issue is, and how much of a toll it's taking on the players. Can't be easy, so maybe we should be more sympathetic.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Sun 31 Oct 2021, 12:46 pm

Wading gingerly into a couple of other matters relating to off-field issues at this tournament.

First, the De Kock situation. Hmm. I'm going to try to be as diplomatic as possible, but I mainly side with msp's views here. The match vs Australia where Australia took the knee as one, while SA did a mix of kneeling, standing to attention, raising fists, or nothing at all, would have been a very bad look for SA. This also has to be put into context of the SJN hearings, which have uncovered allegations of rather a lot of very distasteful stuff (cricinfo has run an excellent series on the hearings), and of course SA's wider history. Gestures, even symbolic ones, do have meaning, and can have an impact, while the picture of SA's black players all kneeling while a singular white player just stood by doing nothing paints a rather disturbing image for me.

I think this article makes those points quite well: https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/t20-world-cup-2021-firdose-moonda-why-did-quinton-de-kock-refuse-to-take-a-knee-1285641

That being said, for the Board to issue the directive the way they did, at the last minute before a match, having (perhaps understandably) uhmmed and aahed every since the issue was originally raised, was... not great. I can understand why De Kock felt blind-sided to some extent.

And I think he's given a good, heartfelt apology, with a reasonable explanation that he felt it was a meaningless gesture for him (mistakenly IMO, as I said above), accepts he was wrong, and will now join the rest of the team in taking the knee. I think all that is reasonable, and we can move on.

The other matter is that regrettably Mohammed Shami, the I think only Muslim in the Indian team, has apparently been subject to some horrid abuse on social media, much of it islamophobic in nature. I'm not going to go into a debate on social media, but I note the excellent comments made by Kohli on the matter.

You wonder whether either of these two issues will have a galvinising effect on the teams in question. It's often felt that teams developing a bit of a siege mentality of "us against the world" can help them bond and perform better in big tournaments, so it will be interesting to see if that happens here. Certainly SA seemed well pumped up in just getting over the line against SL yesterday.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 31 Oct 2021, 1:36 pm

Easy ride for Afghanistan, ending the streak of close-fought games.

Now time for India-New Zealand. Kiwis have won the toss and will field first, so they've got a chance.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 31 Oct 2021, 1:37 pm

Clinical from the Afghans today - and has put their NRR in a position of real strength. Certainly in with a shot of qualifying, albeit if Mujeeb is hurt that lowers significantly (why did you not bring Qais Ahmed you plebs!!)

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 31 Oct 2021, 1:37 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:The Nasser one made some sense though. Strauss had come in for the injured Vaughan (who IIRC had copped one on the knee trying to sweep a net bowler or something), and obviously scored loads of runs. Vaughan was the captain (and playing well), so would naturally come back in for the next test, which would have meant Strauss missing out (presumably) despite scoring a century followed by 80-odd. There was also the irony of Nasser having run Strauss out in Strauss's second innings, depriving him of the twin centuries on debut that he looked destined for.

Nasser talks about this in his autobiography. He states that he never felt he wanted to "overstay his welcome" and that seeing Strauss in full flow looking so comfortable in the Test arena convinced him that it was time to go. He's also honest enough to admit that him scoring a match-winning century in his final innings felt too much like a fairytale to pass up. How much weight you ascribe to those two feelings might depend on how cynical you are, and since guildford has been around since at least W.G. Grace's "They've come to see me bat, not you bowl" comments, he's probably earned the right to a healthy amount of cynicism Very Happy. Certainly it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if he'd run Strauss out, got out himself, and England promptly collapsed to defeat...

Back to Afghan again, I do think alfie raises a reasonable point about the Afghanistan team's minds being inevitably on other matters given the current situation in their country. I really can't imagine how difficult the whole issue is, and how much of a toll it's taking on the players. Can't be easy, so maybe we should be more sympathetic.

Hi MfC - yeah, the decision did make some sense but it should have been for the selectors and not Hussain (having made himself available for the series), whatever his motivations, to make. That's essentially my point.

Anyway, as Alfie said, good to have you back and thank you for your tribute to my own history of watching the game. Wink

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 31 Oct 2021, 2:17 pm

Oh wow, Milne drops an absolute dolly at fine leg off Rohit’s first ball - how big could that be?
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Post by Duty281 Sun 31 Oct 2021, 2:18 pm

That's a good contender for drop of the tournament. Would have underlined a good start from the Kiwis.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 31 Oct 2021, 2:37 pm

The Rohit drop didn't cost too much...40/3 after 7.4, India in trouble, eating up far too many dots, and struggling to get out of second gear.

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Post by JDizzle Sun 31 Oct 2021, 3:18 pm

No boundary since the PP did the commentators just say? There is rebuilding and then there is an embarrassing lack of intent.

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Post by Duty281 Sun 31 Oct 2021, 3:20 pm

India have been completely strangled by the slow pitch and highly accurate (with variable pace) Kiwi bowling. A big effort needed by Pandya/Jadeja in the last four overs just to scrape 120.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 31 Oct 2021, 3:29 pm

JDizzle wrote:No boundary since the PP did the commentators just say? There is rebuilding and then there is an embarrassing lack of intent.

This has been a pathetic “effort” by the Indian batsmen. No intent to hit boundaries, no intent to even rotate strike. Shambolic
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Post by alfie Sun 31 Oct 2021, 3:32 pm

Missed the early part of this innings but having watched India struggling to hit the spinners off the square I guess they'll be hoping Chakravarthy and Jadeja can do a similar job of strangulation for them. Problem being they might only be defending about 110 unless they can monster this last couple of overs...
Losing Pandya now as well really unlikely to help.

And Thakur gone too ! Might not even make 100 Shocked

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Post by Duty281 Sun 31 Oct 2021, 3:38 pm

Very little chance of India advancing if they lose here, as looks likely. They'd need to win their three remaining games, and hope NZ have a slip-up v Afghanistan or the two associate nations. Even then they'd be relying on NRR. which looks like it'll take a hammering in this one. India have effectively done what France did at the Euros and not turn up.

Odd to consider that India haven't won a World T20 since the IPL started.

We could be heading for a Afghanistan v New Zealand game which could be effectively a QF.

110 the final total. Should not be enough. India were very timid, but full credit to NZ's bowlers (if not their fielding!).


Last edited by Duty281 on Sun 31 Oct 2021, 3:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 31 Oct 2021, 3:39 pm

It’s not quite as good a pitch as the one for England/Australia but that’s a good 40 short of par I reckon - New Zealand with a huge huge opportunity to take a massive leap towards qualification here
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Post by alfie Sun 31 Oct 2021, 3:41 pm

Remarkable sight of Jadeja refusing singles in the last over of a t20 innings...
Understandable; they need sixes . But unusual !

Got one six. And they make 110 due to a surprising dropped catch off the last ball...one run probably won't cause NZ too much angst but it contrasted with some very sound catching from others.

India with backs to the wall , you'd think , defending this .

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 31 Oct 2021, 4:23 pm

64-1 off 8 overs - contest is over, but India need to drag this as deep as possible for net run rate purposes, on the other hand if NZ finish it quickly they could deal an almost fatal blow to India’s chances
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