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Scotland v Australia Sunday 7th November 2021

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The Oracle
lostinwales
doctor_grey
Heaf
No 7&1/2
sensisball
demosthenes
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Scotland v Australia Sunday 7th November 2021 - Page 4 Empty Scotland v Australia Sunday 7th November 2021

Post by BigGee Mon Nov 01, 2021 6:06 am

First topic message reminder :

Scotland v Australia
Sunday 7th November 2021
BT Murrayfield Stadium
Edinburgh

KO 14.15
Love on Amazon Prime


Well the warm up with Tonga is done and dusted and now the big boys are coming to town. Australia don't quite have the aura of NZ or SA but undoubtedly undergoing a bit of a renaissance under their new coaching team, which, just to add some spice to the occasion, consists largely of ex Glasgow and Scotland coaches Dave Rennie, Matt Taylor and Petrus du Plessis . DR was a bit of a mixed bag at Glasgow and left with maybe the feeling that he could and should have achieved a bit more but to say he is anything other than a rugby coach at the very top of the game would not do him justice. He will know the Scottish players very well and just what they can bring to the party.

Unfortunately for him, they have had to leave 3 of their best players behind, who have choosen club over country but he will add some top European based Auusie's to his squad such as Skelton and Rory Arnold, it is hard to see how they won't improve the team.

Scotland will also get their absent players back and we can expect to see our strongest team out for this fixture. A few of the kids put their hands up in the Tonga game but this is more likely to be a game for the older hands with more changes likely to come in the subsequent games. I would imagaine a team something along these lines:


1. Sutherland - if fit, he pulled out of last weeks game
2. Turner
3. Fagerson Z
4. Gilchrist
5. Skinner
6. Ritchie
7. Watson
8. Fagerson M
9. Price
10. Russell
11. VDM - looked back in his best form this weekend
12. Johnson
13. Harris
14. Steyn
15. Hogg


Subs

Bhatti
McInally
Keeble
Hodgson - probably shaded Sykes on last weeks game
Richardson - Toonie curveball!
Dobie
Hastings
Mclean

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Post by tigertattie Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:17 pm

Well it’s a win but that was toothless.

Some big performances from shoe, GG, mish, Ritchie.

Some really poor performances from price Hogg and Russell.
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Post by lostinwales Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:18 pm

As an England fan can I just thank you for beating the cr@p out of then in advance of next week?

Good performance.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:18 pm

Thank goodness, now I can have a beer.....

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Post by Old Man Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:18 pm

I suspect the Aussies may have a few forwards injured after this match.

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Post by jimbopip Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:23 pm

Not so long ago we would have found a way to have lost that game. Now we seem to find ways to win 🏆
Sam Johnson flattening the Tongan Thor was only just eclipsed by Dancer flattening PDP.

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Post by The Oracle Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:24 pm

Congrats Scotland. Only saw the score not the game so can’t comment on much. But well done, good win.
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Post by bsando Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:25 pm

I'll take a nowhere close to perfect victory that is bordering on daylight robbery over Aus any day of the week. That was a gutsy win but smothered with the classic Scottish "make it hard for yourself at all costs" finish.

Awesome to see two more debutants holding silverware, both making big contributions to the result as well!

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Post by BigGee Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:25 pm

Well Scotland do seem to be learning how to win these tight games and to win without playing particularly well.

WE do still seem to be a hard team to beat as well, which will take us a long way.

A couple of decent debuts from Ashman and Bayliss which will also stand us in good stead going forward.

Johnson was probably my MoM, he is made of steel!

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Post by jimbopip Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:25 pm

tigertattie wrote:Well it’s a win but that was toothless.

Some big performances from shoe, GG, mish, Ritchie.

Some really poor performances from price Hogg and Russell.
Big performances from Luvvies. Poor performances from Sons of Scotstoun???
Really tiger. Really.

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Post by bsando Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:37 pm

BigGee wrote:Well Scotland do seem to be learning how to win these tight games and to win without playing particularly well.

WE do still seem to be a hard team to beat as well, which will take us a long way.

A couple of decent debuts from Ashman and Bayliss which will also stand us in good stead going forward.

Johnson was probably my MoM, he is made of steel!

Mine too! He was so good in attack and defence.

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Post by tigertattie Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:44 pm

jimbopip wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Well it’s a win but that was toothless.

Some big performances from shoe, GG, mish, Ritchie.

Some really poor performances from price Hogg and Russell.
Big performances from Luvvies. Poor performances from Sons of Scotstoun???
Really tiger. Really.

Really wasn’t meant like that jimbo.

My point was more the forwards did well, the backs were pretty horrendous other than Johnson who was solid aside from when he didn’t pass left to Duhan.

You must admit that it’s a fair assessment
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Post by bsando Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:48 pm

tigertattie wrote:
jimbopip wrote:
tigertattie wrote:Well it’s a win but that was toothless.

Some big performances from shoe, GG, mish, Ritchie.

Some really poor performances from price Hogg and Russell.
Big performances from Luvvies. Poor performances from Sons of Scotstoun???
Really tiger. Really.

Really wasn’t meant like that jimbo.

My point was more the forwards did well, the backs were pretty horrendous other than Johnson who was solid aside from when he didn’t pass left to Duhan.

You must admit that it’s a fair assessment

Some of those backline moves out wide were giving me flashbacks of Cardiff 2018. Thankfully they didn't prove too costly in the end, but every time it wasn't on. Seems to be a trend with Toonie, he's always looking for that wonder backline play out wide.

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Post by bsando Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:50 pm

Considering everyone in the world rankings above Scotland won their games too (France, Ireland, England) I'm assuming Scotland will remain in 7th?

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Post by jimbopip Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:55 pm

It's fair. The Aussie's defence was very good. The game was layer at a frenetic pace; just before Asman scored I was concerned that we were impatient and rushed in the red zone and if we didn't score we would probably live to regret it.
In the backs... I thought Harris had another "defensively solid but meh going forward " game.
However, so far; Shoey, Ashman, Hodgson, Dobbie, Thomson and Shona have all stepped up.

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Post by thefinalthistle Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:03 pm

I must admit - I just do not get it with Sam Johnson. John Barclay on co-comms was praising him again but apart from a few tackles, I don't see what he adds. His decision making in attack was poor, not for the first time, and he adds little threat.

Happy to be proved wrong! Anyway, Ewan Ashman MOTM. What a debut!
Rest of the player ratings here: https://thefinalthistle.wordpress.com/2021/11/07/scotland-v-australia-player-ratings/

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Post by Heaf Sun Nov 07, 2021 2:13 pm

Congrats to Scotland - looked like a daft pen could cost them near the end but managed to hold on for the win.

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Post by George Carlin Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:39 pm

Let's remember that this is the first time that team has been together for the best part of a year.

I will take the victory over a team ranked 4 places higher than us in the world rankings any day.

Plenty of room to improve and shake the rust off.

I am so delighted that our pack fronted up against some very large Aussie units. I'm sure that much will be made of the disruption to Australia's preparation but that was still a heavyweight Wallaby side that we managed to subdue whilst not actually playing very well ourselves.

Six day turnaround to the Springboks which will be very, very rough. Let's see who's fit.

But proud, so very proud of that. We're only 2 years away from regularly losing tight games like that.
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Post by tigertattie Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:39 pm

Here, that’s us the holders of the raeburn shield again now. Forgot about that
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Post by mikey_dragon Sun Nov 07, 2021 4:46 pm

Great win Scotland. Not to be sniffed at as Aus are quite strong, but they sure did get splintered up front!

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Post by RDW Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:19 pm

Yeeeees great win to wake up to (bsando I was never planning on staying awake on a school night  - I'm not that keen! Very Happy )

Doesn't sound like the highest quality of games but we stood toe to toe with the huge Wallaby pack, which is a good sign for next week albeit we're gonna have a lot of sore bodies. Sounds like we bossed the scrum too which is s pleasant surprise.

Full day of work to get through before watching the game tonight!


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Post by doctor_grey Sun Nov 07, 2021 5:22 pm

jimbopip wrote:Not so long ago we would have found a way to have lost that game. Now we seem to find ways to win 🏆
Sam Johnson flattening the Tongan Thor was only just eclipsed by Dancer flattening PDP.
That Tongan Thor is such a uniquely constructed individual. There almost nothing for a defender to hold on to......

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Post by Hazel Sapling Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:37 pm

Great result for us considering our attack really did not deliver anything. Australia were able to corral our backs far more effectively than I hoped and we managed to win it through the pack.

The key point in the match for me was the big carry by Sam Johnson that ended up knocking out Tupou. Tupou came on, changed the momentum in the scrum and looked ready to make some big carries. Him coming off forced Australia to rely on A'alatoa (probably spelt that incorrectly) who was not having a great game.

Big thing we really did not do was use DVDM enough. First phase ball off a lineout, he needs to be running at JOC. First phase off a scrum, he needs to be running at JOC. Against South Africa, he needs to be running at Pollard and draw in De Allende.

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Post by RDW Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:22 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
jimbopip wrote:Not so long ago we would have found a way to have lost that game. Now we seem to find ways to win 🏆
Sam Johnson flattening the Tongan Thor was only just eclipsed by Dancer flattening PDP.
That Tongan Thor is such a uniquely constructed individual.  There almost nothing for a defender to hold on to......

He's an absolute freak of nature - one of the biggest THs in world rugby but the skills and speed of a centre.

As Hazel said - it very much helped our cause that he went off injured (hope he's ok)

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Post by Highland Shaun Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:25 pm

To say I'm a proud Scot is an understatement lol, it is good to be winning when not playing as well as we know we can, in fact I was getting bad flashbacks to Wales where we lost despite not deserving to, that was my thoughts today (awaits lambasting replies lol).

That try from Ewan Ashman was superb, one a winger like King Duhan or Darcy would be proud of.

Others who impressed for me: Schoeman, Johnson, Bayliss, Watson, Hodgson and Horne (game management wise), I've probably missed a few.

I did think Hogg and King Duhan were quiet in attack though but Finn was solid, imho the criticism of him is/was harsh, he did execute an excellent 50/22 to be fair.

Bring on the Boks and hopefully an Ashman start!

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:42 pm

Scotland just needed to stop going through phases in their own half at times, and make sure they were playing further up the pitch. While any win over Australia is a feather in the cap, it felt like that could have been more comfortable with better game management.

Scotland are the new holders of the Raeburn Shield.


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Post by Highland Shaun Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:53 am

I think Gregor has another tough job picking a 23 to play South Africa, one change may be forced on him if MF is indeed cited (was he sticking up for his bro after the yellow card incident).

If he does get cited then I'd be inclined to keep the rest of the 14 the same with possibly a different bench, maybe Dylan Richardson will get on so he can make his debut late on.


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Post by BigGee Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:22 am

John Barclay's take on this match and a look ahead to the next v South Africa, in the Sunday Times




For the third time this calendar year, Scotland found a way to win a tight game against a quality opponent. England at Twickenham went to the last play, France in Paris was won at the same stage, and yesterday against Australia, the outcome was again right in the balance until the very last.

How many times — and not just in meetings with the Wallabies — have we seen the other side of this coin? The one where Scotland lacked the nous, game-management or straight-up experience to close out a strong position.

Even in the most recent Six Nations, they were well-placed at various points in the Wales and Ireland games and let them run away from them. But what we witnessed at the Stade de France and again here yesterday speaks to a real developing maturity in the self-belief and conviction of this group.

They know they are good enough to get the job done, and so they keep going, backing themselves to the hilt. That assurance is a fantastic quality for any team to possess, and it makes me even more convinced that this Scotland side have it in their grasp to achieve things well beyond what has become the norm in the professional era.

In truth, this was an error-strewn game between two teams who all but cancelled each other out by wanting to play the same way in attack. Both tried to go wide too early, and only when Scotland started giving themselves some targets and going round the corner in the second half did it feel like they were exerting a degree of control.


Both tries were spectacular in their own way — whether in the cleverness of the construction for Hamish Watson’s or the brilliance of the finish from Ewan Ashman — but the foundations were laid in the tight exchanges, particularly the scrum.

Scotland’s set-piece efforts were superb, and though Zander Fagerson delivered the level of display that we have long come to expect from him, Pierre Schoeman on the loose-head deserves an absolute mountain of praise.


We both arrived at Edinburgh in the summer of 2018, and from the moment I first set eyes on him in training, I knew he was a man that you could build a Test scrum around. His durability and consistency, week-in, week-out are absolutely remarkable, and the nuts and bolts of his game are terrific. He’s a huge man, which is always a good starting point, especially when a big part of your job is to get bodies out of the way in the contact zone. But he also does what so few other loose-head props can, which is bring real power in the carry.

His scrummaging is excellent, and the confidence Scotland have in him was made clear when they opted for the set-piece on the 5m line instead of a tap and go. When a scrum is going that well, the plaudits normally go to the tight-head prop because he’s scrummaging against two men, and the loose-head prop’s role is now much more to support and work with him.




You also don’t get the penalties for twisting the scrum 90 degrees which used to be almost exclusively the loose-head prop’s doing. But you can tell when the No 1 is living up to that billing, and Schoeman certainly did against a Wallaby front-row which had been widely praised on the back of how it showed up when taking on the Springboks in the recent Rugby Championship.

South Africa are at Murrayfield on Saturday and it will be a very different game again. Scotland’s focus will be on winning collisions, in both defence and attack, and defensively they will be tested much more vigorously by direct carries in tight channels.

I can’t see them going wide against the Springboks like they tried early on against Australia — setting targets at speed and moving the heavier South African team around will be crucial as will keeping the ball in play minutes high. Scotland do not have the out-and-out power to go fully north/south in their approach. They’ll need to play through the Springboks, moving the ball at pace and using shorter passes and subtleties in and around those forward pods that Jacques Nienaber and Rassie Erasmus so love.

I expect Finn Russell will be put under as much, if not more, pressure as we saw against Australia, who flew out of the blocks in a bid to shut down his airspace. The full gamut of his kicking game — both short and long — will need to be on display.


Scotland will give themselves a serious chance if they carry forward the belief and momentum from this. Should George Turner come through his rib injury, I imagine the only change will be Scott Cummings replacing Sam Skinner at lock, now that the Glasgow man is, by all accounts, good to go again while the Exeter Chief went off injured yesterday.

What a great way to prepare for the world champions, by beating the very team that has just knocked them over twice. Something special is building here.

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Post by BigGee Mon Nov 08, 2021 3:24 am

So Cummings may well be back next week, which will be good.

Baylis certainly did enough to merit another crack as well. Richardson may well have to wait until Japan I think.


I am on night shifts atm, so if anyone fancies doing a match thread please do.

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Post by George Carlin Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:11 am

What this alleged gauging incident about, then? Who was it? Zander?
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Post by Old Man Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:12 am

Well, this test will be interesting.

Firstly you have Finn Russell who believes the Lions played the wrong game plan vs the Boks.

So I am sure him and Townsend will want to prove that this weekend.

So I suspect both coaching teams will pretty much know what is coming.

Scotland will be confident, and why not, they are a quality team and building depth. It will be interesting to see how South African players Townsend will pick against SA.

Likely Schoeman and DVDM to start, Richardson and Steyn on the bench.

Just a note on the Bok players, the myth perpetuated about moving the big South Africans around is just that.

Australia had the biggest pack of the weekend, almost 30kg heavier than the Bok pack.

All Blacks ran Australia ragged earlier this year, they didn't manage that against the Boks.

Wales ran for 340 meters vs the All Blacks with a team without many players, they only managed 136 against the Boks.

We all know what each team want to do, the question remins whether their opposition will allow it.

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Post by RDW Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:19 am

George Carlin wrote:What this alleged gauging incident about, then? Who was it? Zander?

It was complete needless from Zander but also so, so minor. Zander put his hand on Hooper's mouth as a bit of shothousery after the disallowed score and it slipped up his face a bit.

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Post by BigGee Mon Nov 08, 2021 4:46 am

RDW wrote:
George Carlin wrote:What this alleged gauging incident about, then? Who was it? Zander?

It was complete needless from Zander but also so, so minor. Zander put his hand on Hooper's mouth as a bit of shothousery after the disallowed score and it slipped up his face a bit.


I think he will probably get away with it, though it was very stupid, their SH did pretty much exactly the same thing later in the game and got a warning for it

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Post by Tramptastic Mon Nov 08, 2021 5:30 am

I don't think it'll come to anything at all, just as I didn't think the Alaalatoa incident was worth more than a penalty (albeit, the cheeky bugger knew what he was doing and it was intentional shothousery).

Will echo previous comments, VdM wasnt used enough running off Russell. There was also a rush by both teams to get the ball outside the 13 channel as fast as possible (possibly a result of the 50:22 rule creating more space out wide) but the wide defense was so good out wide for both teams that it seemed to result in knock ons/turnovers every single time.

It was a wierd match, very stop-start but good intentions from both teams. It was a game that felt a bit more like a chess match with both coaching teams knowing each other well and various exploitative plays developed to counteract each team. Cleary loads of analysis was done by both teams on the other which resulted in nothing but counterpunches with no-one really able to run through the phases as a result.

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Post by Hazel Sapling Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:29 am


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Post by RiscaGame Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:08 am

BigGee wrote:
RDW wrote:
George Carlin wrote:What this alleged gauging incident about, then? Who was it? Zander?

It was complete needless from Zander but also so, so minor. Zander put his hand on Hooper's mouth as a bit of shothousery after the disallowed score and it slipped up his face a bit.


I think he will probably get away with it, though it was very stupid, their SH did pretty much exactly the same thing later in the game and got a warning for it

From the video I saw, it seems he barely made contact with the eyes, if he did at all. I would be surprised if anything came from it. I am sure a telling off from the Scottish management will take place and he will likely learn from it.

A brilliant win though. I didn't get to watch, but was very envious when I heard about the result.

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Post by RDW Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:13 am

Just watched the game - really was a mad first 20! Both teams getting.a bit over excited I reckon. I hope we're not that loose against SA.

I think the key decisions were correct. Fair play to the pack for getting their timing right and knowing the rules for the first try. I think the yellow was fair albeit very low end of severity Those swinging arm clear outs are incredibly dangerously and ultimately he was only an inch away from making first contact with the face, which could have been a red. Fagerson had a seatbelt tackle first but the clearout was a higher severity.

As an overall performance I think you need add 1 point to each of the forwards who really stood up against a top Aussie pack. I actually thought the much maligned Gilchrist put in a huge shift, putting in several dominant tackles. Schoeman did everything asked of him and will make Sutherland have to raise his game.  Ashman looked at home and I like the impact Bayliss made off the bench - he's an all action player. The scrum was a pleasant surprise!

Backs weren't as good and generally lacked cohesion. Finn did a lot of good but some bad too. Midfield was very solid as always with SJ making some good carries, although should have passed to VDM for that 2 on 1. Wings were ok without seeing too much ball. Hogg didn't have a great game - had a few good runs in the 15m channel but also made a lot of poor decision.

As for Australia it was a performance similar to last year where they were good in parts but poor disciplines and lots of mistakes. Tom Wright had a decent game but will not be looking forward to the revue on Monday - that was such a stupid penalty to give away. I fear for them against England, particularly with the injuries they've picked up.

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Post by RDW Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:41 am

Oh one more thing.- I'm a huge fan of Hooper and he's a class act but thought it was pretty disrespectful how he spoke to Poite after the yellow. He only got away with it because he's Hooper - if that had been Farrell or Sexton the internet would have gone into meltdown!

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Post by TheMildlyFranticLlama Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:42 am

RDW wrote:Just watched the game - really was a mad first 20! Both teams getting.a bit over excited I reckon. I hope we're not that loose against SA.

I think the key decisions were correct. Fair play to the pack for getting their timing right and knowing the rules for the first try. I think the yellow was fair albeit very low end of severity Those swinging arm clear outs are incredibly dangerously and ultimately he was only an inch away from making first contact with the face, which could have been a red. Fagerson had a seatbelt tackle first but the clearout was a higher severity.

As an overall performance I think you need add 1 point to each of the forwards who really stood up against a top Aussie pack. I actually thought the much maligned Gilchrist put in a huge shift, putting in several dominant tackles. Schoeman did everything asked of him and will make Sutherland have to raise his game.  Ashman looked at home and I like the impact Bayliss made off the bench - he's an all action player. The scrum was a pleasant surprise!

Backs weren't as good and generally lacked cohesion. Finn did a lot of good but some bad too. Midfield was very solid as always with SJ making some good carries, although should have passed to VDM for that 2 on 1. Wings were ok without seeing too much ball. Hogg didn't have a great game - had a few good runs in the 15m channel but also made a lot of poor decision.

As for Australia it was a performance similar to last year where they were good in parts but poor disciplines and lots of mistakes. Tom Wright had a decent game but will not be looking forward to the revue on Monday - that was such a stupid penalty to give away. I fear for them against England, particularly with the injuries they've picked up.

Agreed, for me Hoggy was the worst player on the pitch for Scotland at the weekend, and how many times have we been able to say that in the past?

There's actually a bit of a pattern forming; dropped for Nowell for the big Exeter games at the end of last season, very underwhelming performances for the Lions, now failing to shine in a Scotland shirt. At what point to we start to worry about him? Hopefully he can play himself back into form soon!

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Post by RDW Mon Nov 08, 2021 6:06 pm

I also wonder if the time for Ritchie as captain has come. It's just not practical having a captain at 15 - a lot of the time Hogg was often nowhere to be seen when deciding whether to kick for touch, scrum, kick at goal etc - it was Finn and Ritchie making those decisions as he was so far back when the penalty was given.

Although TBF they were down as vice captains so maybe that was deliberate.

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