6 Nations Round 3 - England v Wales

First topic message reminder :

England v Wales

Twickers, London
Saturday 26th Feb 2022
Kick Off - 1645hrs

England team

Steward; Malins, Daly, Slade, Nowell; Smith, Randall; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Ewels, Itoje, Lawes (Capt), Curry, Dombrandt.

Replacements: George, Marler, Stuart, Isiekwe, Simmonds, Youngs, Ford, Marchant.

Wales Team

L Williams; Cuthbert, Watkin, Tompkins, Adams; Biggar (capt), T Williams; W Jones, Elias, Francis, Rowlands, Beard, Moriarty, Basham, Faletau.

Replacements: Lake, G Thomas, Brown, S Davies, Morgan, Hardy, Anscombe, J Davies.

With regards to this weeknds game England v Wales.

Wales all ways get up for this game depleted side or not. I just cannot see Wales wining this game.

England will be at all most full strength team and Wales still have most of their best players missing.

Looking forward to the game though.

England aren't at nearly full strength.

Still missing Hill, Underhill, Farrell, May and Watson through injury.

If Launchbury were fully fit he'd be in the 23 as well.

Jack Willis only has a few caps but would be very near the 23 if fit.

Ludlam is also injured. He was arguably in the squad due to Underhill and Willis being injured as well.

The guy who seemingly had the Welsh team spot on last time, reckons two changes (and one positional) from what eventually started against Scotland.

L Williams, Cuthbert, Watkin, Tompkins, Adams (LRZ out), Biggar, T Williams, Jones, Elias, Francis, Rowlands, Beard, Moriarty, Basham, Faletau (for Jac Morgan).

He was looking like he was right last time, bar for Adams’ injury. I wouldn’t be overly surprised if this was it.

Do you mean L Williams at fullback?!

I don't see anything in that Welsh side or recent performances to suggest that we shouldn't be winning quite comfortably, possibly by 15-20pts.

With that in mind, I'm going for a Wales win by 3pts.

The Oracle wrote:Do you mean L Williams at fullback?!

Haha. Yeah

Big wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I did the replay of the try last night and may have got the two centres confused for the try. 

I just did a replay after reading all this...   seems to me that Ojomoh's error was buying the dummy before the step on Joseph.  Seems to hesitate and think about dashing forward to get a good hit on Porter, but instead leaves a gap for him when the pass is delayed as the rest of the defensive line has dropped back.  Looks good when it works and you get a dominate tackle, looks less good when you've been played and leave a bit of a gap for the oppostion.

Talking of centres though, I'm really not sure what Joseph did wrong.  England seemed to play a lot of good rugby with him there, but he has seemingly been abandoned or is at least considered very much on the fringes post world cup.  I don't really watch much of Bath so don't know if he has been injured/out of form - but from what I've seen I've generally been impressed with him and I am surprised not to have seen more of him the last couple of years.

As a final thought, if that Bath game tells you anything about who England are missing - it is that it isn't Manu, Kelly or Ojomoh, it's Steve Borthwick.

No, no, no Steve has only just started his work at Tigers. By his own admission there's still a lot of work to do there. After RWC 2027 England can have him with a bit of luck the Welford Road trophy cabinets will have been replenished by then.

RiscaGame wrote:The guy who seemingly had the Welsh team spot on last time, reckons two changes (and one positional) from what eventually started against Scotland.

L Williams, Cuthbert, Watkin, Tompkins, Adams (LRZ out), Biggar, T Williams, Jones, Elias, Francis, Rowlands, Beard, Moriarty, Basham, Faletau (for Jac Morgan).

He was looking like he was right last time, bar for Adams’ injury. I wouldn’t be overly surprised if this was it.

I think we got a good pack. It'll be interesting to see what's on the bench. TH (Lewis, although he is doing alright) and Seb Davies are weak links, still hopeful to see Ratti at some point as he brings us something different, but it's likely to be Wainwright there. Backs are a weak link on the field and bench.

He reckons the back replacements are Hardy, Anscombe and J Davies, interestingly.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No, no, no Steve has only just started his work at Tigers. By his own admission there's still a lot of work to do there. After RWC 2027 England can have him with a bit of luck the Welford Road trophy cabinets will have been replenished by then.

Well, a man can dream. But it would not be surprising if Borthwick is top of the list for England when Eddie steps aside.

No Rees-Zammit then which evens up the wing options a touch.

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No, no, no Steve has only just started his work at Tigers. By his own admission there's still a lot of work to do there. After RWC 2027 England can have him with a bit of luck the Welford Road trophy cabinets will have been replenished by then.

Well, a man can dream. But it would not be surprising if Borthwick is top of the list for England when Eddie steps aside.

Two things about Borthwick.  

First, he is still learning his craft.  A jump to England is too early, by my reckoning.  He really has only about half a season of great success so far.  I would leave him where he is to see if this is a one off or if he really has the goods.  If so, then we need him out of Leicester quickly.  

Second, without his perpetually bleeding nose, he is less intimidating and impressive.  Just another tall bloke who broke his nose a few times.

No 7&1/2 wrote:No Rees-Zammit then which evens up the wing options a touch.

Yes I saw that. Personally although he's had poor 6N so far I'd have picked him as he has x-factor pace. Cuthbert has returned to form but England will cope with him OK.
Just need Radwen picked now. Nice dry pitch, perfect.

Radwan was cut yesterday.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Radwan was cut yesterday.

Yeah I know, was being ironic. Jones just doesn't rate him. He does rate Youngs though so no doubt have 79 mins of aimless box kicks...

Borthwick certainly seems to be flavour of the month with his half a good season under his belt.

Let him develop at Tigers, get a few more years in....make sure he's not just fluking it.

Borthwick would have been pretty high up given his england experience anyway. I doubt that him doing well at Leicester has led to him falling down that list.

What list is this?

Trouble is England job is often seen as a poisoned chalice, ultimately doomed to failure. Not as bad as football one but still bad enough. Think Rob Baxter knows this hence has ruled himself out in past. Lancaster has redeemed himself at Leinster but he was given a dogs life by media for a while.
If it was just a coaching job then fair enough but such a high profile role, arguably the highest in the world game brings with it so much more and often negative. Hence quite a few candidates who might be considered probably think very hard and long before throwing hat in ring.
Jones in this respect was perfect as he loves the media attention and stokes up the fires. Likes of Borthwick, Baxter not so much I suspect.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:What list is this?

The hypothetical list someone is holding on potential candidates.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:What list is this?

The hypothetical list someone is holding on potential candidates.

Ohhhhhh.......I like lists! What number on this list was Borthwick and who was above/below him?

I think Dean Richards should be top of the England list....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:What list is this?

The hypothetical list someone is holding on potential candidates.

Ohhhhhh.......I like lists! What number on this list was Borthwick and who was above/below him?  

Oh right. You're in that mood.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:What list is this?

The hypothetical list someone is holding on potential candidates.

Ohhhhhh.......I like lists! What number on this list was Borthwick and who was above/below him?  

Oh right. You're in that mood.

Haha....nah, not really. We don't know if Borthwick is even on England's radar, never mind high up.....was what I was trying to get at.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Dean Richards should be top of the England list....

Shall we go 50/50 on his train fare GF?

Take my money!!!

England have said they wanted Jones to increase experience of potential coaches and so you'd not imagine it's a huge leap that him Farrell etc were being looked at. You don't think that would be the case. Now those 2 in particular I would have strengthened their cases further. But yes I'm guessing. Same as we all do with potential players.

Wheres Gustard these days? Is he still doing any coaching?

Where does Sanderson sit on the list....does he have to really make it work at Sale first..?

Taking a while out. He did a media interview 2 weeks or.so.ago when he talked about the additional pressure he felt as a head coach and how his comms with players fell a little short. Clearly a very good coach even if it didn't work with Harlequins, he'll be back.

The all seeing WOL are now running with that selection, including the back replacements.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Taking a while out. He did a media interview 2 weeks or.so.ago when he talked about the additional pressure he felt as a head coach and how his comms with players fell a little short. Clearly a very good coach even if it didn't work with Harlequins, he'll be back.

Gustard was a disaster at Quins, it's going to a big turnaround for him to get anywhere near the Prem, never mind England.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Gustard was a disaster at Quins, it's going to a big turnaround for him to get anywhere near the Prem, never mind England.

No, he wasn't.

He made some big mistakes - in particular trying to impose too structured a game plan, not listening enough to his coaches and his handling of some contract renewals was bad - but the fundamentals of what he did were sound. The basic gameplan and the squad are still largely what he set up, and even under him they were a big improvement over what John Kingston had managed.

Gustard was a youngish coach in his first DoR role and tried too hard to control everything, with the result that he lost the faith of his players and paid for it with his job. But the way he left masks the fact that he did a lot right and Quins are reaping the benefits now.

He's not yet ready for a senior international role - and possibly not even for another DoR role. But he is a good coach and I expect that one day he will be ready.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Radwan was cut yesterday.

merde. There goes our hybrid wing/prop.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Taking a while out. He did a media interview 2 weeks or.so.ago when he talked about the additional pressure he felt as a head coach and how his comms with players fell a little short. Clearly a very good coach even if it didn't work with Harlequins, he'll be back.

Gustard is assistant coach at Bennetton I thought?

They've made big improvements there in recent years too. Along with the improving Italy U20s they represent some green shoots there I think.

Yeah you're right completely oblivious to that.

doctor_grey wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No, no, no Steve has only just started his work at Tigers. By his own admission there's still a lot of work to do there. After RWC 2027 England can have him with a bit of luck the Welford Road trophy cabinets will have been replenished by then.

Well, a man can dream. But it would not be surprising if Borthwick is top of the list for England when Eddie steps aside.

Two things about Borthwick.  

First, he is still learning his craft.  A jump to England is too early, by my reckoning.  He really has only about half a season of great success so far.  I would leave him where he is to see if this is a one off or if he really has the goods.  If so, then we need him out of Leicester quickly.  

Second, without his perpetually bleeding nose, he is less intimidating and impressive.  Just another tall bloke who broke his nose a few times.

It's worth remembering he took us to a 6th place finish last season after we finished 11th the season before. The man isn't a miracle worker but he seems a very astute coach. Anyone expecting a soft touch after Eddie would be in for a shock though, it the player doesn't want to commit to the work and values Borthwick wants then they get cut. Those who buy in do improve though Chessum being a great example of that.

I'd tend to agree that three years as a Prem DOR would be a short spell as the top man before taking the big job. Ideally England will want a top man with some silverware behind them or a track record at international level.

Who would be people top 3 shortlist then currently? Caveats such as applying aside.

Poorfour wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Gustard was a disaster at Quins, it's going to a big turnaround for him to get anywhere near the Prem, never mind England.

No, he wasn't.

Really? That Quins did 1000% better without a DOR rather than him in place surely says something? It appeared he completely lost the changing room, fell out with players left right and centre and no other club within 500 miles would touch him after leaving......assistant coach at Benetton says it all really.

Some of his comments after leaving have elft a lot to be desired too...comes across as a bit of a chopper.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Who would be people top 3 shortlist then currently? Caveats such as applying aside.

Connor O'Shea
Jamie Joseph
Scott Robertson
Rob Baxter

Not quite a top 3 but I'd expect those four to be amongst the interviewed.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Gustard was a disaster at Quins, it's going to a big turnaround for him to get anywhere near the Prem, never mind England.

No, he wasn't.

Really? That Quins did 1000% better without a DOR rather than him in place surely says something? It appeared he completely lost the changing room, fell out with players left right and centre and no other club within 500 miles would touch him after leaving......assistant coach at Benetton says it all really.

Some of his comments after leaving have elft a lot to be desired too...comes across as a bit of a chopper.

Quins needed someone to shake things up and Gustard did that. It didn't work out but someone had to make the hard decisions to move on the likes of Robshaw and Brown. Had to sort the defence.

He was to authoritarian for Quins but there was some benefits to what he did.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Gustard was a disaster at Quins, it's going to a big turnaround for him to get anywhere near the Prem, never mind England.

No, he wasn't.

Really? That Quins did 1000% better without a DOR rather than him in place surely says something? It appeared he completely lost the changing room, fell out with players left right and centre and no other club within 500 miles would touch him after leaving......assistant coach at Benetton says it all really.

Some of his comments after leaving have elft a lot to be desired too...comes across as a bit of a chopper.

Newcastle would have him tomorrow.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Who would be people top 3 shortlist then currently? Caveats such as applying aside.

Connor O'Shea
Jamie Joseph
Scott Robertson
Rob Baxter

Not quite a top 3 but I'd expect those four to be amongst the interviewed.

I'd like to see Robertson in there. Borthwick and mccall for me making up the other 2.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Gustard was a disaster at Quins, it's going to a big turnaround for him to get anywhere near the Prem, never mind England.

No, he wasn't.

Really? That Quins did 1000% better without a DOR rather than him in place surely says something? It appeared he completely lost the changing room, fell out with players left right and centre and no other club within 500 miles would touch him after leaving......assistant coach at Benetton says it all really.

Some of his comments after leaving have elft a lot to be desired too...comes across as a bit of a chopper.

Newcastle would have him tomorrow.

Not a chance.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Really? That Quins did 1000% better without a DOR rather than him in place surely says something? It appeared he completely lost the changing room, fell out with players left right and centre and no other club within 500 miles would touch him after leaving......assistant coach at Benetton says it all really.

Some of his comments after leaving have elft a lot to be desired too...comes across as a bit of a chopper.

I'd say that they did 1000% better pretty much the instant he left speaks to how much he got right. A rebound for a few matches after a change of management is common... a rebound that delivers a 14-1-4 record including a title says that the fundamentals were right. He recruited players like Andre Esterhuizen, Stephan Lewies, Wilco Louw, Tyrone Green and Scott Baldwin who were critical to the title run. Over half the starting XV players in the Final were recruited or came through the Academy under his watch.

Gustard was dropped because he was trying to create a culture that just didn't work for the club, and which I think stemmed from him trying too hard to stamp his authority on things in his first top job. In my view he's a very good technical coach who just wasn't mature enough to be a DoR.

He went to Benetton presumably because he needed a job but also I suspect because a change of league and a step back is what he needed for his own development. It was announced very shortly after he left Quins, so it's not as if he wasn't in demand.

He was ultimately the wrong man for the club, but I can distinguish between that and being a "disaster".

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Who would be people top 3 shortlist then currently? Caveats such as applying aside.

Connor O'Shea
Jamie Joseph
Scott Robertson
Rob Baxter

Not quite a top 3 but I'd expect those four to be amongst the interviewed.

I'd like to see Robertson in there. Borthwick and mccall for me making up the other 2.

I think it might be to early for Borthwick and McCall who I rate highly would be hounded by the media after the Sarries salary cap fiasco.

Everyone gets hounded by the media. And by that I mean there is always a section of the media whether it be traditional or otherwise who will disagree with decisions and say so. If we want someone who will be liked universally I think we're in trouble!

With regards to the game this week end which ever side looses, and lets face it one side will loose right.

What are the chances of the head coach of the loosing side keeping his job till the RWC next year?

You’ve loost me there Madge.

What if it's a draw?

RiscaGame wrote:You’ve loost me there Madge.

Let me see if i can help you, if Wales loose on Saturday, will Pivac keep his job up till the rugby world cup? Or will he be replaced after the 6nations?

That is what i was getting at