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6 Nations Round 3 - England v Wales

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed 16 Feb 2022, 10:20 am

First topic message reminder :

England v Wales

Twickers, London
Saturday 26th Feb 2022
Kick Off - 1645hrs

England team

Steward; Malins, Daly, Slade, Nowell; Smith, Randall; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Ewels, Itoje, Lawes (Capt), Curry, Dombrandt.

Replacements: George, Marler, Stuart, Isiekwe, Simmonds, Youngs, Ford, Marchant.

Wales Team

L Williams; Cuthbert, Watkin, Tompkins, Adams; Biggar (capt), T Williams; W Jones, Elias, Francis, Rowlands, Beard, Moriarty, Basham, Faletau.

Replacements: Lake, G Thomas, Brown, S Davies, Morgan, Hardy, Anscombe, J Davies.


Last edited by Sgt_Pooly on Sun 27 Feb 2022, 4:37 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Gooseberry Sun 27 Feb 2022, 7:38 am

Agreed Oracle, Wales actually showed some promising signs and were the better side later on, but as with Ireland got off to a really bad start.

For the lack of depth and quality available Pivac has at least managed to keep players heads up and some sense of belief in the squad. Dogging the win out against Scotland showed heart if not quality.

Its tight matches like this that swing one way and the other that make the 6 nations. Scotland were close to delivering the similar. Have to hope Wales can take confidence and play at France from the off who are vulnerable in defence, they will score whatever the question is can Wales do the same against them?. 3 tries in this game shows they have some tools in attack.

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Post by mikey_dragon Sun 27 Feb 2022, 9:13 am

It seems there was a bit of foul play in that lineout, but I don't think we should complain after what happened in last seasons fixture. We had time to put it right in this game too.

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Post by lostinwales Sun 27 Feb 2022, 9:38 am

Soul Requiem wrote:Smith is part of the problem at the moment, the backline aren't in tune with his game at all yet. He's such an instinctive player that he rarely looks like he knows what he's about to do so unfamiliar platyers have no chance.

He is quite clearly the right player but he needs to play within himself a bit more, tighten it up and that understanding will grow.

Yes and no. He is a fantastic craftsman but needs better tools to work with. Maybe we have been too spoiled with players who make space for others - Billy and of course the Samoan come to mind - or May finding space because he's so damn fast.

We have a team that scraps very hard, runs around a lot but just doesn't get anywhere. The funny thing is that it does better against Southern opposition, but the 6N is a different beast.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Sun 27 Feb 2022, 9:46 am

Smith never had that many runners off him, you can tell the backline isn't that fluid yet and none of the backs are running hard and straight. All the best Fly Halfs look better with that hard running option....it opens up so many options.

What I like about Smith though is he's willing to try things and has the ability to go himself. He's a step up on anything we've had for a long time in attack, we should just build around what he requires.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 27 Feb 2022, 10:16 am

Pick proper centres and proper wingers. And all will be good.

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Post by mountain man Sun 27 Feb 2022, 10:28 am

Well a win is a win. Tough as expected and close as expected. Dombrandt, Smith and Steward good for Eng I thought. Strong runs from Steward who isn't quickest but so strong.
Slade and Daly definitely not answer to centres problem. Guess we wait for Manu on that....
Youngs, he's got the record now time to toddle off in Int sunset. Get Quirke in with Randall.
Wings - need some pace there and Nowell way off it and missed how many tackles?
Wales be happy with 2nd half but not discipline especially in 1st half. Faletau and Cuthbert superb as was Tomkins.
Enough said about ref the better. Awful for both teams.

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Post by lostinwales Sun 27 Feb 2022, 11:06 am

Another plus side. I don't think anybody is going to argue that Genge is not an international prop of the highest quality any more.

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sun 27 Feb 2022, 11:10 am

All the predictions about the quality of the officials have been proved right. They are getting a full on slating from bot sides on social media.

The game was exciting but the quality about as good as the officials.
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 27 Feb 2022, 11:19 am

The Welsh are getting very angry on the slightest of pushes from Itoje! He didn't get hold of the Welsh at the scrums and of course missed bits and pieces. I think in general some fans expect 100 per cent accuracy from refs who also see things exactly as they do. I do like to talk about the intricacies of laws because the gane is so complicated. And i don't think having Dallaglio helps the casual fan himself having no clue most of the times.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 27 Feb 2022, 11:41 am

Not sure how Francis managed to pass his HIA based on this.

https://twitter.com/AlixPopham/status/1497697451242922000?t=Hs2fYSk7C4kgbUyybneZtw&s=19

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Post by WELL-PAST-IT Sun 27 Feb 2022, 12:01 pm

He looks like his head is in cloud cuckoo land, all over the place. It does make you wonder how good the tests are. Can you totally recover from not being able to stand up and be in an obviously dazed condition in 10-20 minutes.

Over to you Doc................
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Post by No 7&1/2 Sun 27 Feb 2022, 12:05 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:He looks like his head is in cloud cuckoo land, all over the place. It does make you wonder how good the tests are. Can you totally recover from not being able to stand up and be in an obviously dazed condition in 10-20 minutes.

Over to you Doc................
More worrying that the medic appears to be very much in view of him stumbling. And it's pretty clear once you're looking at it on review. I didn't see it live as I was looking at the ruck. The second you stumble the laws on it say you have to be withdrawn ie it doesn't progress to off field assessment.

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Post by Gooseberry Sun 27 Feb 2022, 12:30 pm

lostinwales wrote:Another plus side. I don't think anybody is going to argue that Genge is not an international prop of the highest quality any more.


The officials seemed to disagree

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 27 Feb 2022, 12:39 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
WELL-PAST-IT wrote:He looks like his head is in cloud cuckoo land, all over the place. It does make you wonder how good the tests are. Can you totally recover from not being able to stand up and be in an obviously dazed condition in 10-20 minutes.

Over to you Doc................
More worrying that the medic appears to be very much in view of him stumbling. And it's pretty clear once you're looking at it on review. I didn't see it live as I was looking at the ruck. The second you stumble the laws on it say you have to be withdrawn ie it doesn't progress to off field assessment.
Oh, bloody hell.  Looks like the George North sh!t all over again.  And that was medical malfeasance at it's worst.  Medical license pulling, I felt at the time and still do.  Yesterday was in plain view of people right there including team mates, officials, every-effing-body.  And people are supposed to be much more switched on about things now. This is very bad.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 27 Feb 2022, 1:12 pm

Pivac moaning about the try England scored.sour grapes or what?

Wales lost get over it.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 27 Feb 2022, 1:44 pm

I just sent the video of Francis wobbling after that play to the head of medical for one of the two NY NFL teams. He lives in my town and we have worked together from time to time. He saw that and said that in the game today he would would be brought up for review if he let a player stumbling around like that back on the pitch.

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Post by mountain man Sun 27 Feb 2022, 1:53 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Pivac moaning about the try England scored.sour grapes or what?

Wales lost get over it.

Yep pretty poor really from a head coach. I notice he didn't mention Biggars knock-on which subsequently led to a Welsh try. Funny that.

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Post by RiscaGame Sun 27 Feb 2022, 1:58 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:Pivac moaning about the try England scored.sour grapes or what?

Wales lost get over it.

I mean this is true, but then what do you and others say about Eddie Jones still moaning about last year, like he did in his press conference? I would say that’s worse, some 12 months on.

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Post by RiscaGame Sun 27 Feb 2022, 1:59 pm

Francis isn’t a good look at all, I agree. Hope Pivac or the coaching staff get a lot of stick for that.

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Post by mountain man Sun 27 Feb 2022, 2:00 pm

RiscaGame wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Pivac moaning about the try England scored.sour grapes or what?

Wales lost get over it.

I mean this is true, but then what do you and others say about Eddie Jones still moaning about last year, like he did in his press conference? I would say that’s worse, some 12 months on.

Jones as bad but he has form for saying things he perhaps shouldn't.

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Post by Soul Requiem Sun 27 Feb 2022, 2:01 pm

Nowell two weeks ago was bad enough but that Francis one is plain scary, he's somewhat fortunate that play stopped.

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Post by majesticimperialman Sun 27 Feb 2022, 2:22 pm

With Luke Cowan Dickie getting injured yesterday who is the next Hooker after Jamie George.

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Post by Mr Bounce Sun 27 Feb 2022, 2:44 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:With Luke Cowan Dickie getting injured yesterday who is the next Hooker after Jamie George.

Jamie Blamire

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 27 Feb 2022, 2:50 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:With Luke Cowan Dickie getting injured yesterday who is the next Hooker after Jamie George.
Cockers

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Post by Heaf Sun 27 Feb 2022, 3:00 pm

Bit rude - he only asked Wink

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 27 Feb 2022, 3:12 pm

Just a little fun. Wonder who would be behind Blamire.

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Post by Heaf Sun 27 Feb 2022, 3:22 pm

I meant calling him a Cocker Very Happy I realise that doesn't quite work, sorry for a feeble attempt at a joke Wink

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Post by lostinwales Sun 27 Feb 2022, 3:59 pm

RiscaGame wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:Pivac moaning about the try England scored.sour grapes or what?

Wales lost get over it.

I mean this is true, but then what do you and others say about Eddie Jones still moaning about last year, like he did in his press conference? I would say that’s worse, some 12 months on.

There was plenty to moan about, but let us not revisit that now.

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Post by Geordie Sun 27 Feb 2022, 4:04 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:With Luke Cowan Dickie getting injured yesterday who is the next Hooker after Jamie George.

Jamie Blamire

And Dean Richards never plays him....so hardly going to be in form.


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Post by Gooseberry Sun 27 Feb 2022, 4:12 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:With Luke Cowan Dickie getting injured yesterday who is the next Hooker after Jamie George.

Jamie Blamire

And Dean Richards never plays him....so hardly going to be in form.


If a player whos not good enough for Newcastle is the best England can muster then it isnt a lock crisis they are suffering from.

Dolly would be the other option, but its was Blamire in the wider 6nations squad wasnt it.

Or they could play Barberry and get Marler to take the lineout throws for him

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Post by king_carlos Sun 27 Feb 2022, 4:24 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:With Luke Cowan Dickie getting injured yesterday who is the next Hooker after Jamie George.

Jamie Blamire

And Dean Richards never plays him....so hardly going to be in form.


If a player whos not good enough for Newcastle is the best England can muster then it isnt a lock crisis they are suffering from.

Dolly would be the other option, but its was Blamire in the wider 6nations squad wasnt it.

Or they could play Barberry and get Marler to take the lineout throws for him
Blamire started in the win against the Boks to be fair. They were missing Malherbe but still had a fantastic front row. His England performances so far have been strong. He's a really good young player.

McGuigan is a strong Premiership player for Falcons but lacks the physicality that Blamire has to step-up to international level.

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Post by king_carlos Sun 27 Feb 2022, 4:26 pm

Also worth saying that even as a Tigers fan I think Singleton would deserve to get the 3rd squad place ahead of Dolly. At the moment I'd pick Clare for the Tigers bench ahead of Dolly due to Clare being rock solid at set-piece.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 27 Feb 2022, 4:31 pm

Heaf wrote:I meant calling him a Cocker Very Happy I realise that doesn't quite work,  sorry for a feeble attempt at a joke Wink
That's probably two of us. guinness

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Post by Recwatcher16 Sun 27 Feb 2022, 6:12 pm

Watched the game again. The game had a pretty unsatisfactory feel to it, with Wales missing a host of players, (most well over 30) and England missing a little game management in the second half and gainline ability in the backs.

I don't think Wales can have any complaints at scrum time although they did well to antagonize the English front row. The lineout was barely a contest with throws to one line meaning the opposition could get nowhere near it.
Hardy's try was quick tapped in front of the ruck from where the penalty was awarded and those extra yards made a big difference to getting the ball on the line.
England look like they are missing some power at both ruck and scrum compared to France.

Refs have a difficult job but Adamson didn't do himself any favours and seemed to be too easily swayed by the constant back chat from a host of players. He should be telling the whole lot to shut up.

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Post by Poorfour Sun 27 Feb 2022, 7:28 pm

king_carlos wrote:Also worth saying that even as a Tigers fan I think Singleton would deserve to get the 3rd squad place ahead of Dolly. At the moment I'd pick Clare for the Tigers bench ahead of Dolly due to Clare being rock solid at set-piece.

Probably not this 6N, but I wonder if Jack Walker might get a look in at some point. He’s been a revelation since coming to Quins - nailed on starter, great carrier, increasingly reliable setpiece and has even been given the captaincy a couple of times. He’s still only 25, so young in front row terms.
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Post by yappysnap Sun 27 Feb 2022, 7:59 pm

Odd game overall. England were generally poor for most of the game with a shonky scrum, crap decision making in attack and a paper thin defence. But we still won it.

We desperately need some catalysts in the backline. It feels like at the moment our backline are a bunch of individually ok players, but none of them seem to really gel or be exceptional. The best backs right now are Smith and Steward who are both incredibly new and still learning. The others are all just place fillers.

In the forwards we looked dominant until Curry went off then seemed to really struggle to contain Wales. All game though Genge and Synkler struggled at scrum time, I know they're key for the way we attack but their scrummaging seems so hit and miss. Very rarely do we ever have dominance in the scrum these days, and often we seem to be hanging on at best.

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Post by yappysnap Sun 27 Feb 2022, 8:01 pm

Also have to say Wales were really impressive in the second half, their attack cut us up all over and we are incredibly lucky to come away with the win. France and Ireland must have been licking their lips as they watched England's backs try to defend.

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Post by Gooseberry Sun 27 Feb 2022, 9:03 pm

Poorfour wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Also worth saying that even as a Tigers fan I think Singleton would deserve to get the 3rd squad place ahead of Dolly. At the moment I'd pick Clare for the Tigers bench ahead of Dolly due to Clare being rock solid at set-piece.

Probably not this 6N, but I wonder if Jack Walker might get a look in at some point. He’s been a revelation since coming to Quins - nailed on starter, great carrier, increasingly reliable setpiece and has even been given the captaincy a couple of times. He’s still only 25, so young in front row terms.

Curtis Langdon played in the summer tests. He seems to share first choice duties at club level with Scotlands emergency reserve Canadian.

Again not exactly a stunning option now, but must've shown some potential to get the summer spot and plenty young enough to keep improving.

Had forgotten all about Singleton mind, hes the obvious one to come into the wider squad but have to assume Blaimre will get the bench spot.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun 27 Feb 2022, 9:48 pm

More about the Francis fiasco.  At least it is getting headline-type attention, which is obviously deserves.  I hope the errors/mistakes/failure to manage properly are clearly reported without bureaucratic obfuscation.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/60547201

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Post by yappysnap Sun 27 Feb 2022, 10:07 pm

Is it me or does the Welsh team seem to have more issues around HIA than most? I can remember similar problems with North and i'm sure others as well, where they've played on when they should have come off.

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 28 Feb 2022, 10:02 am

doctor_grey wrote:More about the Francis fiasco.  At least it is getting headline-type attention, which is obviously deserves.  I hope the errors/mistakes/failure to manage properly are clearly reported without bureaucratic obfuscation.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/60547201

He did seem okay when he returned to the field, although I don't actually know the full extent of the damage. We have a week off now so I hope he is fine to continue, we won't go too well against France without him.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 28 Feb 2022, 10:16 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:More about the Francis fiasco.  At least it is getting headline-type attention, which is obviously deserves.  I hope the errors/mistakes/failure to manage properly are clearly reported without bureaucratic obfuscation.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/60547201

He did seem okay when he returned to the field, although I don't actually know the full extent of the damage. We have a week off now so I hope he is fine to continue, we won't go too well against France without him.

He should have been removed though as per the rules. It does need to be questioned. There was the one with North the other year when he hit his head against the ground and looked out but couldn't be proved conclusively. Clearly in this case the medical team have dropped a clanger.

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Post by mikey_dragon Mon 28 Feb 2022, 10:18 am

It certainly does need to be questioned, but we're just going 'in line with the normal protocols' for now. Hopefully we hear something in a day or two.

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Post by Gooseberry Mon 28 Feb 2022, 11:14 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:More about the Francis fiasco.  At least it is getting headline-type attention, which is obviously deserves.  I hope the errors/mistakes/failure to manage properly are clearly reported without bureaucratic obfuscation.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/60547201

He did seem okay when he returned to the field, although I don't actually know the full extent of the damage. We have a week off now so I hope he is fine to continue, we won't go too well against France without him.

He should have been removed though as per the rules. It does need to be questioned. There was the one with North the other year when he hit his head against the ground and looked out but couldn't be proved conclusively. Clearly in this case the medical team have dropped a clanger.


From what I understand it was the match officials who gave the wrong instructions, the Welsh just followed them.

I think its a touch off to cast aspersions about the professionalism of the WRU medical staff based on such a tiny sample of incidents and as the folk involved have changed.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 28 Feb 2022, 11:33 am

Not sure it is when it's as blatant as this. Pivacs quotes that he passed the tests so all good (or words to that affect) also don't sound good.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Mon 28 Feb 2022, 11:59 am

Some talking points picked up on the eggchasers podcast....

1. Steward, isn't looking to use is physical attributes as some perhaps expected. I noticed this one actually, he doesn't seem overly comfortable coming at pace into the line. He will often slow down and try to use his footwork to get past the 1st man. I'd like to see him crash ball somewhat, although unsure if he's got this in his locker. He could potentially solve some issues if he could develop this.

2. Steward again....he was at fault for the Adams try. I didn't notice this at the time, but Steward is caught in no mans land when he should have been covering Adams. He does perhaps get put off by Malins stepping in, but it's just one of those things I guess...he was generally pretty good I thought.

3. Randall isn't fit enough for Int rugby - Another point I didn't pick up on. Apparently Randall really struggled getting around the park and keeping up with the pace of things. Something Eddie will no doubt have noticed if true. His distribution was excellent but perhaps it's an issue?

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Post by propdavid_london Mon 28 Feb 2022, 12:21 pm

Agree with those points Pooly,
Mentioned above about Englands front row - But I would single out Sinkler who appears to have been off form 'ever since his move to Brizzle' IMO.
His contribution in the loose is exceptional and just short of Genge's, but with all their activity around the pitch their effectiveness at scrum time seems to suffer (might have something to do with the engine room too).
The ship steadied with Marler/George/Stuart.
And I have wondered if its better to start with the solid set piece guys and unleash Genge/LCD/Sinks as impact game changers...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 28 Feb 2022, 12:39 pm

Who does the egg chasers podcast? Dawson was questioning his fitness but they need something new to look at now his kicking didn't fall apart. And I don't take what Dawson says very seriously either.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Mon 28 Feb 2022, 12:45 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Some talking points picked up on the eggchasers podcast....

1. Steward, isn't looking to use is physical attributes as some perhaps expected. I noticed this one actually, he doesn't seem overly comfortable coming at pace into the line. He will often slow down and try to use his footwork to get past the 1st man. I'd like to see him crash ball somewhat, although unsure if he's got this in his locker. He could potentially solve some issues if he could develop this.

Didn't see the game but this would be exactly the opposite to how he's played for Tigers and England since he started. He normally slows and uses his footwork if he's trying to buy time for support, it's a last resort. I see Eddie has made some comments about making the England attack unpredictable by focusing on operating with a lack of structure so could be he's just not on th same page as his teammates or hasn't got the experience to get himself into the game in the style he wants.

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Post by Poorfour Mon 28 Feb 2022, 12:53 pm

propdavid_london wrote:
Mentioned above about Englands front row - But I would single out Sinkler who appears to have been off form 'ever since his move to Brizzle' IMO.  

It's not uncommon for a prop's effectiveness to dip for a couple of years after they change clubs - every side scrummages differently and it can take a while to adapt. Sinckler may benefit from having Genge with him next year - two England starters training together might mean they get used to getting the best out of each other.

That said, it's notable that Quins' scrum hasn't suffered since he left. Wilco Louw was a very decent signing - but even in his absence Will Collier has been excellent, Simon Kerrod is a more than capable backup (and now seems to be converting successfully to LH), Fin Baxter is coming through etc. Our academy has always been good at finding props, but I suspect the thing that's moved us from punching above our weight to one of the best scrummaging packs in the AP is the presence of Adam Jones. He's on a permanent contract now so it will be harder than ever for another club to prise him away, though I cross my fingers that Wales doesn't come calling...

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