6 Nations Round 3 - England v Wales

First topic message reminder :

England v Wales

Twickers, London
Saturday 26th Feb 2022
Kick Off - 1645hrs

England team

Steward; Malins, Daly, Slade, Nowell; Smith, Randall; Genge, Cowan-Dickie, Sinckler, Ewels, Itoje, Lawes (Capt), Curry, Dombrandt.

Replacements: George, Marler, Stuart, Isiekwe, Simmonds, Youngs, Ford, Marchant.

Wales Team

L Williams; Cuthbert, Watkin, Tompkins, Adams; Biggar (capt), T Williams; W Jones, Elias, Francis, Rowlands, Beard, Moriarty, Basham, Faletau.

Replacements: Lake, G Thomas, Brown, S Davies, Morgan, Hardy, Anscombe, J Davies.

Easily the best rugby Wales have played all tournament this half. Kinda deserve this if they get the penalty and card.

Shouldn’t it be a yellow?

Strange the French AR can spot that but missed a far more obvious from Wales earlier - same side ...

Get in!!!!!!

Well I think it’s France up next for us. Home advantage won’t really do us much good…

England need to improve against Ireland, and won't have a hope against France like that. Too many slack periods.

But a win is a win etc.

Exciting finish but mostly a very poor game.

England need to stop making unforced errors and throwing away possession.

If Curry is injured for the Ireland and France games then England have big issues. Once Curry went off the pack lost its ascendancy.

I don't think either team were that convincing ...

Ah well. Congrats England. It’s crazy to have out scored a side 3-1 and lost. Especially when I didn’t really think Wales were really going to score too many after the first half.

Heaf wrote:I don't think either team were that convincing ...

Nope but England faded badly and Wales really grew into the game.

Either way England will do well to beat Ireland, France look miles ahead. Need an immense improvement in accuracy across the team, and something different in the outside backs.

2nd half defence was awful. The tap try was unforgivable for me...no idea who it was. Imagine not expecting a quick tap at 78 mins and needing a try.

Should have been much easier. Cuthbert motm for me, superb.

Please pick some wingers Eddie.

England pack is overall pretty good, but the backs all feel a bit toothless. Really need a May or a Tuilagi, and my opinion of Malins is going down all the time.

Nowell was OK but wasn't great. Losing Curry was a major headache.

RiscaGame wrote:Ah well. Congrats England. It’s crazy to have out scored a side 3-1 and lost. Especially when I didn’t really think Wales were really going to score too many after the first half.

Wales only have the first half performance to blame, England should've had at least one more try then. But the way they came back in and didn't give up is a huge credit to them. They definitely had the best plays of the two teams, just too late in turning it on.

Curry going off was massive, going from breakdown dominance to parity.

Rowlands, Faletau, Tompkins and Cuthbert were the Welsh standouts for me.

Not sure what Pivac will do against France. He will be obsessed by physicality and their pack size again, so maybe no changes.

Pivac sure does like to talk about how big his front row players are. Moriarty wasn’t at the races today. I think we’ll need Ratti in the 23 for France but Pivac won’t test him.

mikey_dragon wrote:Shouldn’t it be a yellow?

The knock on? No.

Didn't hear why Curry went off so a bit worried if he's out for too long. Not sure who the obvious replacement is with a few guys out already.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Shouldn’t it be a yellow?

The knock on? No.

For a deliberate knock on it should be.

lostinwales wrote:England pack is overall pretty good, but the backs all feel a bit toothless. Really need a May or a Tuilagi, and my opinion of Malins is going down all the time.

Nowell was OK but wasn't great. Losing Curry was a major headache.

Agree but I'm still not sold on Sinkler. So much hype and I just don't get it.

We missing a juggernaut in the engine room aswell.

Dombrandt had a good one though. He'll start to get better and better in that role once he works it out at this level.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't hear why Curry went off so a bit worried if he's out for too long. Not sure who the obvious replacement is with a few guys out already.

Just play his brother...

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't hear why Curry went off so a bit worried if he's out for too long. Not sure who the obvious replacement is with a few guys out already.

Yeah missing what could have been a first choice backrow with Underhill and May Willis.

The squad options arent the most inspiring, as hilarious as Lawes Barberry Dombrant would be its not exactly balanced! Ludlam nothing special.

Hows Ben getting on these days?

And I'm just not enjoying Malins on the wing.
I wasn't really that impressed with Nowell

And whilst I called for Slade to 12.....I now stand corrected....its 13 or nowhere.

So in the summer...we need
A tighthead
2 wingers
A 12...
A juggernaut lock forward....

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Shouldn’t it be a yellow?

The knock on? No.

For a deliberate knock on it should be.

Nope. That's not the law.

Gooseberry wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't hear why Curry went off so a bit worried if he's out for too long. Not sure who the obvious replacement is with a few guys out already.

Yeah missing what could have been a first choice backrow with Underhill and May Willis.

The squad options arent the most inspiring, as hilarious as Lawes Barberry Dombrant would be its not exactly balanced! Ludlam nothing special.

Hows Ben getting on these days?

Yeah barbeary will be excellent but he's definitely no a replacement as an openside. Willis is getting about 50 mins at prem level so not at all ready for international s. A bit of a question if Curry is ruled out.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Shouldn’t it be a yellow?

The knock on? No.

For a deliberate knock on it should be.

Nope. That's not the law.

Well it’s just some of us and the commentators were under that impression. Could I be missing something?

I don’t think it would have changed the result. If Itoje was binned however…

What a cracking game From both sides.
I actually thought Wales was going to nick at the end
who is the next Hooker in the waiting List...
please no body say Dylan Hartley.

I am asking a serious question.

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Shouldn’t it be a yellow?

The knock on? No.

For a deliberate knock on it should be.

Nope. That's not the law.

Well it’s just some of us and the commentators were under that impression. Could I be missing something?

I don’t think it would have changed the result. If Itoje was binned however…

Think it was Thomas and Dallaglio so yes they are missing something. A deliberate knock on isn't a yellow. 

And it wasn't a knock on by Itoje.

I know Lawes was the fouler, I was just saying that only Itoje going off would have helped Wales. He was immense today.

Its not an autromic yellow card for a deliberate knock on, just a penalty. The yellow is for "cynbical play" which falls under the definition of foul play in the yellow card laws. The actual application of that is of course a touch wooly, but yes the commentators had it wrong. The earlier one which was yellowed was a no brainer, the player had an opportunity to think about what they were doing and there was not even vague notion to do anything other than break up an excellent attacking platform through an illegal action. The Lawes one was barely scraping in as a deliberate knock on (Wales fans may remember Hogg getting away with one!) , and although it was an attacking move wasnt anywhere near a try scoring opportunity and to be frank the pass wasn't even likely to go to be caught cleanly. Its also consistent with the ref generally not looking to make big decisions (no penalty try, no yellows for repeat infringements etc). Its just one of those calls refs have to weigh up a bunch of guidance and make a call on, but really not the sort of incident that the sanction of yellow is intended for (unlike the Williams one which is exactly why a deliberate knock on can lead to a yellow).

Curry missing second half, leaving two 8's and a lock/blindside in the back row meant the breakdown was far more even. The crooked lineouts irritate the hell out of me but Wales secured far more set piece, with scrums pretty even for most of the game.
As the game broke up the ref became far more inaccurate for both sides, which seems to suit Wales more.

Can't see Ireland or France being too concerned by what they saw in SW London today.

Recwatcher16 wrote:Curry missing second half, leaving two 8's and a lock/blindside in the back row meant the breakdown was far more even. The crooked lineouts irritate the hell out of me but Wales secured far more set piece, with scrums pretty even for most of the game.
As the game broke up the ref became far more inaccurate for both sides, which seems to suit Wales more.

Can't see Ireland or France being too concerned by what they saw in SW London today.

Oh god yes. I really don't blame the players for getting away with what they can. It is being smart. Wales seldom threw straight.

Curry went for HIA and must have failed (per The Telegraph).  No info about when and who noticed it.  Perhaps he mentioned symptoms at halftime.  I went back and looked at the last 10 minutes of the first half and didn't see any glaring contact and he was still getting around and involved.  But we don't need direct head contact to have symptoms and fail an HIA.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Cuthbert Wales best player!

I can't help but smile knowing Oracle has been in the pub for hours!

‘Twas a grand old time, 7.5. Only a small local pub. Crammed into the end of the pub away from the restaurant. Sat next to my English pal. Good general banter and ribbing! Curry at half time. Pints of HPA. What more could you ask for?!

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Cuthbert Wales best player!

I can't help but smile knowing Oracle has been in the pub for hours!

‘Twas a grand old time, 7.5. Only a small local pub. Crammed into the end of the pub away from the restaurant. Sat next to my English pal. Good general banter and ribbing! Curry at half time. Pints of HPA. What more could you ask for?’

Well that turned out to be prophetic...i see how you got your name

I honestly thought if Wales had won Faletau would of got Man of the match

Gooseberry wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Cuthbert Wales best player!

I can't help but smile knowing Oracle has been in the pub for hours!

‘Twas a grand old time, 7.5. Only a small local pub. Crammed into the end of the pub away from the restaurant. Sat next to my English pal. Good general banter and ribbing! Curry at half time. Pints of HPA. What more could you ask for?’

Well that turned out to be prophetic...i see how you got your name

Did Youngs actually make a difference when he came on?
Was Randall injured or was he taken off so Youngs could get is most caps?

I am glad he left Smith on for the whole game and not like last week bring Ford on for the sake of it.



































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majesticimperialman wrote:Did Youngs actually make a difference when he came on?
Was Randall injured or was he taken off so Youngs could get is most caps?

I am glad he left Smith on  for the whole game and not like last week bring Ford on for the sake of it./

Nines work harder than any other player and are generally replaced. The question is whether Youngs should be on the bench at all rather than a quicker nine.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't hear why Curry went off so a bit worried if he's out for too long. Not sure who the obvious replacement is with a few guys out already.

Just play his brother...

I have never understood why we don’t keep one brother in the dressing room and put him in the dirty shirt at half time. Two for the price of one.

Fairplay to England - we made Cuthbert, Tompkins and Adams look worldclass. If we had swaped 11 -14, I think England would have won by 30 points. Malins is a nice rugby player but hasn't got the pace or power for International rugby. Nowell was poor and let Cuthbert run over him. Daly was non-descript, as was Slade bar one or two kicks.

Sadly I think the next two matches against Ireland and France might be very chastening experiences. we haven't got the pack to beat them and their backs will run rings round us (Ireand) and straight over us (France).

I think the England back line play was quick service from Randall to Smith.  Then Smith either ran or quickly got the ball out to....what?  On the whole, nuttin.  
On the other side of the ball, Cuthbert was having a field day against the England backs, but then again, he was dead nuts terrific overall.

Quick add about Curry: I think I just saw where Curry took his head knock. A ruck on 37:00 where he went hard to the ground on the far side away from the cameras. He got up looking a bit off kilter but then went out and finished the half. I think since he got up there was no need for a replay, and frankly no one noticed.

Youngs was fine when he got on the pitch. Randall did well too. We really need a strike runner though.

lostinwales wrote:Youngs was fine when he got on the pitch. Randall did well too. We really need a strike runner though.

Agree, not even a hint of a strike runner. And we don't need a high speed block of granite like Tuilagi, just someone big enough with short range acceleration and power to push the defense back a few yards. Nowell used to have a little of that in him but spent most of the match running sideways. The rest of the backline? Nada.

Atkinson got a nasty looking head knock today against Tigers so will presumably be out for a few weeks at least, sadly. I don't think Atkinson will be a strong international but do think this backline would be better balanced with him.

The forwards were making yards today as well so the backs did have a platform. The lack of threat in the midfield and on the wings is very frustrating.

I think everyone is pretty much in agreement on centres and wings but clearly Jones must be getting what he wants out of the likes of Slade and Malins in particular (as they're being consistently picked). Slade had  a couple of nice kicks, kicked to touch well. Was presumably organising the defence a fair bit which was a times iffy. After that I'm struggling for positives.
Malins, is taller than Radwan. And then I'm struggling for positives.
Nowell looked a completely different winger to the one I've seen play for England before.

Smith is part of the problem at the moment, the backline aren't in tune with his game at all yet. He's such an instinctive player that he rarely looks like he knows what he's about to do so unfamiliar platyers have no chance.

He is quite clearly the right player but he needs to play within himself a bit more, tighten it up and that understanding will grow.

On reflection, it’s a tough one to for me to review as a Welsh fan. Before the game I guess I would have taken that scoreline. I commented that I expected a loss but I just hoped we’d keep the scoreline respectable. Really though I feared a thumping!

The opening exchanges were very worrying from a Wales perspective. England came out strongly and Wales were under the cosh. But for all of their dominance it was ‘only’ 6-0 for most of the first half. And then Wales grew into the game more. Even at 17-0 down it felt like we were still in it. England fans will criticise their team and will say that they should have turned the screw and put us out of sight. As a Wales fan I was proud of the fight Wales showed. It was like a Gatland-era performance in the end, where we fought tooth and nail for everything. I didn’t think the Pivac coached Wales had that in them. We seem to have developed a bit of a soft underbelly since Pivac took over, so I was glad to see some fight in us. England were by far the better side and Wales didn’t deserve to win. But to be in with a chance of a win at the end from where we were at 17-0 down is encouraging. Not the thumping I feared, although we were ‘thumped’ in some aspects of the game in the first half. Just not on the scoreboard, thankfully.