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France vs England

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France vs England Empty France vs England

Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 11:40 am

As there's currently no thread:

France

France: Jaminet; Penaud, Fickou, Danty, Villiere; Ntamack, Dupont (capt); Baille, Marchand, Atonio, Woki, Willemse, Cros, Alldritt, Jelonch.

Replacements: Mauvaka, Gros, Haouas, Flament, Taofifenua, Cretin, Lucu, Ramos.

vs England

15. George Furbank

14. Freddie Steward

13. Joe Marchant

12. Henry Slade

11. Jack Nowell

10. Marcus Smith

9. Ben Youngs

1. Ellis Genge

2. Jamie George

3. Will Stuart

4. Maro Itoje

5. Nick Isiekwe

6. Courtney Lawes

7. Sam Underhill

8. Sam Simmonds

Finishers

16. Nic Dolly (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)

17. Joe Marler

18. Kyle Sinckler

19. Ollie Chessum

20. Alex Dombrandt

21. Harry Randall

22. George Ford

23. Elliot Daly

Kick-off: 8:00pm

Referee: Jaco Peyper (SARU)

Assistant Referee 1: Mike Adamson (SRU)

Assistant Referee 2: Frank Murphy (IRFU)

TMO: Marius Jonker (SARU)


Last edited by No 7&1/2 on Fri 18 Mar 2022, 9:27 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 11:46 am

Not seen too much chat on availability and replacements but Sinckler and Curry look likely to miss out from concussion and a leg injury and apparently Ewels picked up a red card at the weekend.

As ever with Jones quite difficult to say who will come in. Some guys as probable or possibles at a stretch, Barbeary, Chessum, Willis, Heyes, Collier?

Bar the guys definitely out I would love to see some changes in the backs, get a new midfielder in there to partner Marchant, 2 new wings as well please at least in the match day squad.

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Post by Geordie Mon 14 Mar 2022, 12:18 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not seen too much chat on availability and replacements but Sinckler and Curry look likely to miss out from concussion and a leg injury and apparently Ewels picked up a red card at the weekend.

As ever with Jones quite difficult to say who will come in. Some guys as probable or possibles at a stretch, Barbeary, Chessum, Willis, Heyes, Collier?

Bar the guys definitely out I would love to see some changes in the backs, get a new midfielder in there to partner Marchant, 2 new wings as well please at least in the match day squad.

Who?

Lozowski?
Try Lawrence again?
Give young Kelly a go?

best off leaving the trialing to the summer tour now.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 12:25 pm

A few options to try, Lozowski is a bit meh for me, as before the 6Ns really wouldn't mind seeing Lawrence, Kelly, Ojamoh, Atkinson, Tuilagi. I'm assuming Lawrence is injured at the mo though, not been involved in the teams last few weeks?

Forgot to say as well, but it goes unsaid drop Youngs as far away as possible from the team.

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Post by majesticimperialman Mon 14 Mar 2022, 12:29 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not seen too much chat on availability and replacements but Sinckler and Curry look likely to miss out from concussion and a leg injury and apparently Ewels picked up a red card at the weekend.

As ever with Jones quite difficult to say who will come in. Some guys as probable or possibles at a stretch, Barbeary, Chessum, Willis, Heyes, Collier?

Bar the guys definitely out I would love to see some changes in the backs, get a new midfielder in there to partner Marchant, 2 new wings as well please at least in the match day squad.

I thought you said on a other thread that Vickery, kay, Rees was available.

Or have you forgotten that?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 12:30 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Not seen too much chat on availability and replacements but Sinckler and Curry look likely to miss out from concussion and a leg injury and apparently Ewels picked up a red card at the weekend.

As ever with Jones quite difficult to say who will come in. Some guys as probable or possibles at a stretch, Barbeary, Chessum, Willis, Heyes, Collier?

Bar the guys definitely out I would love to see some changes in the backs, get a new midfielder in there to partner Marchant, 2 new wings as well please at least in the match day squad.

I thought you said on a other thread that Vickery, kay, Rees was available.

Or have you forgotten that?

Who are they?

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Post by Geordie Mon 14 Mar 2022, 12:32 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:A few options to try, Lozowski is a bit meh for me, as before the 6Ns really wouldn't mind seeing Lawrence, Kelly, Ojamoh, Atkinson, Tuilagi. I'm assuming Lawrence is injured at the mo though, not been involved in the teams last few weeks?

Forgot to say as well, but it goes unsaid drop Youngs as far away as possible from the team.

I totally agree changes are needed...but is an away game in France the place to start someone like Kelly, Ojomoh etc? And with less than a week to train together...?

Nah, go with the same then Jones simply MUST look to fix the backs in the summer.

Its clear Jones isnt bothered about the 6n...hes only interested in the WC...but it is a trait that is starting to irritate me now.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 12:57 pm

I dislike this WC obsession. I would rather win every other tournament, summer tour, AI and crash out at the group stages each time with nil points.

Re putting those guys in, I get in the ideal world you put people into a winning environment etc softly softly however its a bit of a no lose situation with plenty to gain both short and long term. I also don't think they'd be worse than Slade.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 1:40 pm

When I typed it earlier I was thinking it would be a long shot but absolutely amazing to see him back:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60739236

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Post by lostinwales Mon 14 Mar 2022, 1:47 pm

England 34 listed on the England thread.

Included here for completeness. Isiekwe, Underhill and Willis back in the training squad. I'd expect Underhill to be back in the team for the weekend. Nothing much new in the backs selection.


Forwards

Alfie Barbeary
Jamie Blamire
Ollie Chessum
Nic Dolly (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Alex Dombrandt
Ellis Genge
Jamie George
Joe Heyes
Maro Itoje
Nick Isiekwe
Joe Launchbury
Courtney Lawes
Joe Marler
Sam Simmonds
Kyle Sinckler
Will Stuart
Sam Underhill
Jack Willis (Wasps, 3 caps)

Backs

Orlando Bailey
Elliot Daly
George Ford
George Furbank
Ollie Hassell-Collins
Louis Lynagh (Harlequins, uncapped)
Max Malins
Joe Marchant
Alex Mitchell
Luke Northmore
Jack Nowell
Harry Randall
Henry Slade
Marcus Smith
Freddie Steward
Ben Youngs

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Post by Geordie Mon 14 Mar 2022, 2:57 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I dislike this WC obsession. I would rather win every other tournament, summer tour, AI and crash out at the group stages each time with nil points.

Re putting those guys in, I get in the ideal world you put people into a winning environment etc softly softly however its a bit of a no lose situation with plenty to gain both short and long term. I also don't think they'd be worse than Slade.

Not really...Australia away in the Summer tour is not likely to be softly softly.

I just dont think one game away now is worth bringing those lads in.

Also surely if they go to win every tournament, and just evolve the team slowly as they are going, the WC will handle itself....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Mon 14 Mar 2022, 3:18 pm

I think there should have been more change more quickly. And it's one game yes but I don't think the experience of playing France away to deny them is an experience that would be to their detriment.

Plus I think we stand a better chance with say those 2 young wings than with Malins and Nowell.

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Post by mountain man Tue 15 Mar 2022, 1:52 pm

Marius Jonker TMO again.

That'll work well.
Said no-one.
Ever.

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Post by RiscaGame Tue 15 Mar 2022, 2:15 pm

Just read that there is a bit of a reaction to Sinckler being named in the squad, after being knocked out and undertaking a HIA (which he failed). Progressive Rugby have tweeted about it. With this and the Francis issue, I suspect there is going to be a great deal of pressure on World Rugby soon.

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Post by Geordie Tue 15 Mar 2022, 2:17 pm

I was amazed when he was included. He shouldnt be.

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Post by Soul Requiem Tue 15 Mar 2022, 2:34 pm

Sinckler shouldn't be anywhere near the squad, shocking decision.

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Post by MichaelT Tue 15 Mar 2022, 2:38 pm

Malins is out of the squad by the looks of things. 28 players kept for France.

Forwards
Alfie Barbeary (Wasps, uncapped)
Ollie Chessum (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Nic Dolly (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 8 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 35 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 65 caps)
Joe Heyes (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 55 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, 6 caps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 70 caps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 92 caps)
Joe Marler (Harlequins, 78 caps)
Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, 13 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 51 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 19 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 27 caps)
Backs
Elliot Daly (Saracens, 56 caps)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 80 caps)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Louis Lynagh (Harlequins, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 11 caps)
Luke Northmore (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 38 caps)
Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, 5 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 47 caps)
Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 9 caps)
Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 9 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 116 caps)

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Post by mountain man Tue 15 Mar 2022, 2:43 pm

Malins injured or dropped? Furbank though and Daly still there. Basically be same 23 near enough barring injury replacements I reckon.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 15 Mar 2022, 2:45 pm

Was Sinckler knocked out then? If yes why pick him, look after the players ffs.

Whisper it, but is Lynagh finally getting a start? Shame Mitchell has been released and Youngs is still there. Hard to call the pack choice.

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Post by Oakdene Tue 15 Mar 2022, 2:45 pm

RiscaGame wrote:Just read that there is a bit of a reaction to Sinckler being named in the squad, after being knocked out and undertaking a HIA (which he failed). Progressive Rugby have tweeted about it. With this and the Francis issue, I suspect there is going to be a great deal of pressure on World Rugby soon.

Given the late kick off, he is beyond the 7 day rest period. Not that I am saying it is right.

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Post by mountain man Tue 15 Mar 2022, 3:13 pm

Sinkler same as Francis, if he passes concussion protocols available for selection. Dunno about rest on here but my days as a neuro surgeon long over.
Think maybe given recent law suits being issued regarding early onset dementia due to head injuries the rugby authorities be unlikely to include a vunerable player on that basis let alone purely on health grounds.

So, it may not look good but perhaps we should trust the right thing is being done? These top sportspersons(can't say men these days) are treated by the best doctors available. Also Sinkler himself should have enough sense to withdraw himself if any doubt or if not him his family and close friends.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 15 Mar 2022, 3:17 pm

mountain man wrote:Sinkler same as Francis, if he passes concussion protocols available for selection. Dunno about rest on here but my days as a neuro surgeon long over.
Think maybe given recent law suits being issued regarding early onset dementia due to head injuries the rugby authorities be unlikely to include a vunerable player on that basis let alone purely on health grounds.

So, it may not look good but perhaps we should trust the right thing is being done? These top sportspersons(can't say men these days) are treated by the best doctors available. Also Sinkler himself should have enough sense to withdraw himself if any doubt or if not him his family and close friends.

Well it was definitely not the right thing for Francis and if Sinckler was knocked out (couldn't tell) then it's not for him. Are we really going to pick a player who hasn't trained all week?

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Post by mountain man Tue 15 Mar 2022, 3:22 pm

Well the training thing is another matter, most here saying he shouldn't be picked on health grounds.
My point is we should trust medical staff to make best decision if he's available. If he is then it's up to coaching staff to decide if he's ready from a rugby point of view.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 15 Mar 2022, 3:25 pm

I'm not a huge one for blind faith, especially in sport.

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Post by Oakdene Tue 15 Mar 2022, 3:27 pm

I think another HIA is carried out after the game, so there is a chance he could have trained if he passed that & stayed symptom free of course.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue 15 Mar 2022, 3:30 pm

Oakdene wrote:I think another HIA is carried out after the game, so there is a chance he could have trained if he passed that & stayed symptom free of course.

Not if he was knocked out, similar to Francis.

That's my understanding from this: https://www.world.rugby/news/612885

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Post by lostinwales Tue 15 Mar 2022, 4:22 pm

Dolly retained. Blamire let go.

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Post by Geordie Tue 15 Mar 2022, 4:28 pm

Can Sinckler train fully through the week...or can he not do contact work?

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Post by lostinwales Tue 15 Mar 2022, 4:29 pm

Players out
Blamire
Willis
Bailey
OHC
Malins
Mitchell

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Post by doctor_grey Tue 15 Mar 2022, 5:37 pm

Oakdene wrote:I think another HIA is carried out after the game, so there is a chance he could have trained if he passed that & stayed symptom free of course.
it can sometimes take 48-72 hours or more for symptoms to appear. Not sure I get where Rugby is going with this.

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Post by Oakdene Wed 16 Mar 2022, 8:43 am

doctor_grey wrote:
Oakdene wrote:I think another HIA is carried out after the game, so there is a chance he could have trained if he passed that & stayed symptom free of course.
it can sometimes take 48-72 hours or more for symptoms to appear.  Not sure I get where Rugby is going with this.  

Yes, I know this & at any time if a symptom presents itself then the player goes back to the start of the process.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 16 Mar 2022, 9:15 am

Bar if he trained the protocol was broken( if he lost consciousness).

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Post by Oakdene Wed 16 Mar 2022, 9:19 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bar if he trained the protocol was broken( if he lost consciousness).

I haven't actually seen any footage or reports to say he lost consciousness. Though the fact you are mentioning this so much makes me think I have missed something.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 16 Mar 2022, 9:22 am

Oakdene wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Bar if he trained the protocol was broken( if he lost consciousness).

I haven't actually seen any footage or reports to say he lost consciousness. Though the fact you are mentioning this so much makes me think I have missed something.
I didn't see the loss either but I'm going by the reports from the group mentioned above and people on here.

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Post by Oakdene Wed 16 Mar 2022, 9:26 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Oakdene wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Bar if he trained the protocol was broken( if he lost consciousness).

I haven't actually seen any footage or reports to say he lost consciousness. Though the fact you are mentioning this so much makes me think I have missed something.
I didn't see the loss either but I'm going by the reports from the group mentioned above and people on here.

You would like to think if he was knocked out he wouldn't be in the squad.

I will admit I am amazed when players have concussion that they don't suffer any reoccurring symptoms in the week. I got concussed a while ago when playing & after a couple of days I felt ok so went for a light jog & within 10 mins had headaches & dizziness.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 16 Mar 2022, 9:37 am

I would like to think that, but we all saw what happened last week with Francis. I think some great strides have been made but there's more to do. And it is difficult to pick up every little thing, I'm sure we've all watched countless replays of at least 1 try focusing on 1 small element like grounding and complete missed a foot in touch etc. now imagine trying to pick every potential knock etc live.

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Post by dummy_half Wed 16 Mar 2022, 11:53 am

They have retained 3 tightheads in the squad, so my guess is they are giving Sinckler all the time possible to recover, but with the knowledge that he may well not make it in time.

Malins out, so at least one change to the previously mis-firing three quarters line.

The most interesting choices are still how you replace Ewels and Curry - quite a few options with Launchbury and Isiekwe retained in the squad, perhaps indicating Lawes will stay at 6. Then the choice is whether to go with a pure 7 like Underhill or Willis, or to start Simmonds and Dombrandt at 7 and 8.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 16 Mar 2022, 11:59 am

Willis dropped out too. But Barbeary kept.

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Post by nlpnlp Wed 16 Mar 2022, 12:00 pm

It didn’t look like Sinckler was knocked out, but he was clearly dazed and failed the HIA.  I appreciate that this is a discussion site and the point is to discuss things, but we don’t know the facts and are therefore just speculating about someone's health and the professionalism of the medical team and coaches.  I think we have to have faith that the right thing will be done.

This aside, Eddie still continues to frustrate.

Blamire is a good young prospect, but he isn’t good enough to get into his club side, being behind Ireland’s 10th choice (???) hooker.  When Eddie does finally replace him, he does so with another young hooker who isn’t first choice for his club side.

Malins clearly isn’t suited to play winger at International level.  When he is removed is anyone confident that Eddie will pick a specialist to start against France, or will we just see another out of position player such as Daly or Marchant there?

Yet again we are going to see England play a match with an unbalanced centre partnership.

Add to that the unedifying sight of Eddie playing the race card – “I knew I was going to be criticised more because I am a foreigner.”  No, you are getting criticised because for the second year in a row you have consistenty made poor team selections, had poor game tactics and are seemingly poorly coaching the team  Unless we are seeing a maskirovka of Putinesque proportions, this England team are stumbling to the next World Cup in disarray.

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Post by mountain man Wed 16 Mar 2022, 12:14 pm

Probably see Furbank on wing in place of Malins (I really hope not).

My guess for centres will be Slade and Marchant again. I can't understand the continuing selection of Daly, be it bench or starting.

I've pretty much given up on Jones now, I gave him benefit of doubt for ages but his continued selection of players out of position and of players not deserving of a place is incredibly frustrating. We all know if he hadn't been red carded Ewels be starting! Don't start me on Youngs.

As for Jones comments, he has always said stupid things. No doubt he gets prompted to by a click bait media but I wish he'd just shut up and let team do talking on pitch.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 16 Mar 2022, 12:25 pm

Jones is overall a class coach. I would say Gleeson hasn't as yet proved his worth but really bar the character of the team I don't think you can get too much from the Ireland game in terms of ongoing tactics.

And no, it's all ok to question decisions around illness, injury and concussion.

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Post by dummy_half Wed 16 Mar 2022, 2:47 pm

I actually think the selections, or at least the intent of them, has been better this year that last - at least Curry had been on the flank and a proper #8 in place. Lawes is now clearly a 6 by preference, so the pack has made sense.

New pair of starting half backs have been good in part - somewhat hindered by the outside backs selection and by circumstance v Ireland.
Steward has generally been good - a few moments where his inexperience has cost us, but he's generally more than secure under the high ball and has made some contributions in attack.

Which leaves the three quarters. Obviously, injuries have played a significant role, as a possible selection of Farrell and Tuilagi in the centres and May and Watson on the wing would be hugely different and likely more effective than what we have been able to put out.

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Post by Mr Bounce Wed 16 Mar 2022, 3:00 pm

I think one of the biggest problems this six nations has been the continued selection of Slade at 12. I think if we'd gone with Atkinson or Northmore with Slade or Marchant outside at 13 and someone like Radwan or Lynagh at 14 with Nowell or Daly at 11 we'd have had a backline that would have fired a bit more.

There is potential in this squad - it's just that Eddie seems obsessed with the "numbers on the back don't matter" when having real centres in the centres, Number 8s at 8, flankers on the flank and wingers on the wing is actually quite a good idea. Who'd have thought?

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Post by majesticimperialman Wed 16 Mar 2022, 3:02 pm

With Tom Curry out of the France game with a hamstring injury. EJ as called up Jack Willis as a replacement. Willis who himself as only just come back from a knee injury seems a goo call.

I just hope he is fully fit  to play against France and does not get injured after a few minutes.

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Post by mountain man Wed 16 Mar 2022, 3:08 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:I think one of the biggest problems this six nations has been the continued selection of Slade at 12. I think if we'd gone with Atkinson or Northmore with Slade or Marchant outside at 13 and someone like Radwan or Lynagh at 14 with Nowell or Daly at 11 we'd have had a backline that would have fired a bit more.

There is potential in this squad - it's just that Eddie seems obsessed with the "numbers on the back don't matter" when having real centres in the centres, Number 8s at 8, flankers on the flank and wingers on the wing is actually quite a good idea. Who'd have thought?

Yep. Basically Jones trying to fill void left by Manu and can't get anyone to fit. Slade is a 13 not 12 and also seems one of the undroppables. Not that he's been bad particularly just not shown enough for me certainly at 12.
And again yes, genuine pace needed on wing. Not Daly, he's had his numerous chances.

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France vs England Empty Re: France vs England

Post by Poorfour Wed 16 Mar 2022, 5:51 pm

Much as I like Northmore, he's also a better 13 than 12 so I am not sure he'd be an improvement on Slade. I suppose what he has in his favour is a bit more heft and a penchant for running direct lines, but he's most effective running hard on the angle off an inside ball from Esterhuizen.

Atkinson I feel might have been worth a look, even if just against Italy.

I thought that Slade and Marchant both played well - and better as a pair - in the Ireland game, but it was heavily masked by the toll of being a man down. On the assumption that we can't rely on Manu, it's worth persisting with as being able to perm 2 from Slade, Farrell and Marchant would work well in an RWC squad context.

In the longer term, Anyanwu has been regularly getting good reports on loan in the championship, but I think he's probably one for the next RWC cycle.
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France vs England Empty Re: France vs England

Post by majesticimperialman Wed 16 Mar 2022, 6:56 pm

The thing about this game this week end for me is all about (pressure) who cam cope with the pressure?

Could England absorb the pressure France are going to bring and stop France from winning the Grand Slam, and help Ireland win the tournament?

Or do France have enough about them to over come England and win their First Grand Slam in 10 years.
Either way i hope it is a cracking game.

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France vs England Empty Re: France vs England

Post by sensisball Wed 16 Mar 2022, 9:38 pm

Without Curry England will struggle to slow France down. If the French can get the ball to the edges quickly then England's back 3 will find it impossible to stop Penaud, Villiere and Jaminet.

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France vs England Empty Re: France vs England

Post by Unclear Wed 16 Mar 2022, 10:16 pm

The game against Wales showed the French attack can be blunted pretty successfully (as did Ireland in the second half, shame about the first 40mins though). Unfortunately what Wales couldn't do was show any efficiency in attack themselves. I'm sure Mr E Jones and colleagues will be analysing and coming up with plans to limit Frances scoring opportunities and there are plenty of options in the squad to implement such strategies. The Ireland game also showed incredible resilience in defence until the extra man paid dividends in the final ten minutes.
But can England come up with sufficient attacking options themselves? I think we will end up with a low scoring game with France coming out on top by taking what few scoring opportunities they are offered. I think that England are concentrating on building a world class defence at the moment and will hope to bolt on a world class attack in the autumn and next years 6Ns. This minimises the time to analyse it and counteract it before the RWC.
France need to win this game and get the Grand Slam to prove they have the ultimate winning mentality after years of fragility. England just need to keep the score down (and hope their own supporters don't lynch the coaching staff for not valuing the 6Ns).

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France vs England Empty Re: France vs England

Post by mountain man Thu 17 Mar 2022, 8:08 am

France to me had their off game against Wales, yes it was Welsh defence and pressure that stopped them but several of their key players didn't perform as expected. DuPont, Woki, Aldridt, Ntamack, Danty, I thought were below par. France also played a game to win, nothing more. Once had a lead they relied on defence to get to final whistle, the two drop goal attempts signified this. No chances taken, eke out a win that's it.
So. At home with Grand Slam for the taking I cannot see them being so poor again. Yes Wales blunted their attack but I had distinct impression apart from one spell in first half where they tried a succession of offloads that they shut up shop and played to not lose.

Pressure might get to them but it seems nowadays they have the right mindset to see it through. Doesn't mean England can't or won't win but it's going to be tough.

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France vs England Empty Re: France vs England

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