Prem 2022 - 2023 Thoughts

First topic message reminder :

Season is nearly upon us....whats your opinions and hopes for this season...

1. Hopes and Expectations on finishing spot
2. What you want to see from your team
3. Your strengths and Weaknesses
3. Player to watch
4. Academy prospect to watch.

doctor_grey wrote:aaarrgh

very well said

doctor_grey wrote:aaarrgh

A losing point away at Sale is far from the worst result. They are a pretty good side that normally play well at home.

No 7&1/2 wrote:How good is that try by Genge, him and sinckler are going to cause teams huge problems.

And the Arundell try; niiiice.

Apart from the blatant forward pass to Genge and rhe total absence of ....erm....tackling ..yeah it was great.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Mixed opinions on the falcons game......certainly somethings to work on... but we HAVE to sort our defence out. It's awful.

Blamire looks half the size...he's dropped some serious weight.

Oh and not making excuses we lost due to our defence  .but the ref dear lord.
Quins in at the side all the time ignored, obstructing constantly...ignored...TWO bad neck rolls....ignored...

The standard of refereeing needs sorted out.

Just to point out I thought the ref was pretty poor the other way, that Falcons try where you're players were just jogging through our line miiiiles offside and interfered enough to cause a knock on comes to mind - ref says play and you boys score.

Overall i was nervous about the game and really pleased with a bp win for Quins, at the start of the season things can be messy so any wins are good in my book.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:How good is that try by Genge, him and sinckler are going to cause teams huge problems.

And the Arundell try; niiiice.

Apart from the blatant forward pass to Genge and rhe total absence of ....erm....tackling ..yeah it was great.

Jeez Geordie what's up, did someone die?

Flat pass. Bump off a forward. Oupace the backs. I like it

yappysnap wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Mixed opinions on the falcons game......certainly somethings to work on... but we HAVE to sort our defence out. It's awful.

Blamire looks half the size...he's dropped some serious weight.

Oh and not making excuses we lost due to our defence  .but the ref dear lord.
Quins in at the side all the time ignored, obstructing constantly...ignored...TWO bad neck rolls....ignored...

The standard of refereeing needs sorted out.

Just to point out I thought the ref was pretty poor the other way, that Falcons try where you're players were just jogging through our line miiiiles offside and interfered enough to cause a knock on comes to mind -  ref says play and you boys score.

He also missed a knock on, on your final try.

I said earlier the ref is not why we lost, that was our own doing...but the ref was poor and they all need to go back to training school.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Flat pass. Bump off a forward. Oupace the backs. I like it

okey dokey...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:How good is that try by Genge, him and sinckler are going to cause teams huge problems.

And the Arundell try; niiiice.

Apart from the blatant forward pass to Genge and rhe total absence of ....erm....tackling ..yeah it was great.

The line coming back in plus the concern of the Bath forwards of a Sinckler carry made it a soft shoulder hit which isn't going to stop the Baby Rhino. Hooper's whole body couldn't stop him this summer. It was a really nice little move, should be used a lot this season. Even if teams stop it Bristol should be able to get quick ball and then still have their number 8 ready to carry hard again or it go out the back. Good use of the two props.

And yet still a forward pass...

Nah, all good.

Yes if we're following the SH rules that forward passes are fine....

Ref was in line, think you've just got to trust the calls eventually. Re watching it now it still looks flat.

I think the important thing you're all missing is that Irish are top of the league - at least for a week

Hassell-Collins looked very good in the highlights, bit of power, speed, good decision making; how'd he look on the whole?

Heaf wrote:I think the important thing you're all missing is that Irish are top of the league - at least for a week

Very good...your owner will get more than the £1 he's looking for to sell it...

Heaf wrote:I think the important thing you're all missing is that Irish are top of the league - at least for a week

TBF, I'd say there's at least a 50:50 chance that result won't end up standing come the end of the season.

Would be a shame for a guy like Donnell who doesn't score many tries!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hassell-Collins looked very good in the highlights, bit of power, speed, good decision making; how'd he look on the whole?

Was superb both sides of the ball and a pretty clear MOM for me. Nice article on him here following the game

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/09/12/inside-line-ollie-hassell-collins-polish-positioning-will-keep/

He's unfortunate that he plays in such a competitive position as far as England recognition goes. As are Radwan, Murley etc.

Margin_Walker wrote:

Heaf wrote:I think the important thing you're all missing is that Irish are top of the league - at least for a week

TBF, I'd say there's at least a 50:50 chance that result won't end up standing come the end of the season.

Would be a shame for a guy like Donnell who doesn't score many tries!

Yep, a sad state of affairs ... fingers crossed all teams are still here next year

Margin_Walker wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hassell-Collins looked very good in the highlights, bit of power, speed, good decision making; how'd he look on the whole?

Was superb both sides of the ball and a pretty clear MOM for me. Nice article on him here following the game

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/09/12/inside-line-ollie-hassell-collins-polish-positioning-will-keep/

He's unfortunate that he plays in such a competitive position as far as England recognition goes. As are Radwan, Murley etc.  

I think he definitely should be in the England squad.

When you look at the options around the league, Cokanasiga's continuous involvement looks fairly fortunate.

That said, a year out from the world cup it will be very difficult for any player to force themselves into contention from outside the England setup. You don't usually see too many debuts in the lead up to a RWC.

Mark Evans made a good point about the shambolic decision-making over the opening weekend. He wondered what on earth CVC are doing.

There was a vague understanding that CVC taking a stake would mean there would be someone who could knock heads together on key commercial decisions. So far, they seem to have brought money but not any of the expected professional sport expertise.

Genge's other try for Bris was awesome as well. Great to see him hitting the ground running there, bodes well for England.

As long as he doesnt have the Sinkler crash in form...half the player he was before he went to Bristol.

Finally got around to watching Chiefs vs Tigers in its entirety. A frustrating watch that felt like seeing Tigers tactics from 2020/21. Even with the absentees there was some pretty poor rugby in there at times.

Last season Tigers came out on top of a lot of these tight finishes. That wasn't all luck of course. The massively improved fitness since Aled Walters joined, astute use of the bench and tactics that smartly exploited tired opposition in the final stages were all key. Tigers would commonly go through a lot of phases in the final 10-15 minutes with defences tiring even if they'd kicked a lot for the preceding 65-70 minutes for instance. There was certainly an element of luck in winning that many tight finishes though. Whilst the turnaround under Borthwick has been remarkable there was that element of luck flattering Tigers during the huge winning run last season.

I'll be interested to see how Borthwick deals with the increased international absentees (already being felt in Heyes, Chessum, JvP, Porter and Steward missing due to rest after the summer tours) and key players moving on. I like the look of the recruitment and squad but there is an obvious challenge that comes with the increased expectation (hence increased preparation/focus from opposition) combined with more callups. Added to the element of luck last season we had Ford available for most the first 5 months of the season for instance as he dropped by England.

One takeaway for me was Taufete'e not coming on. We were lacking carriers and he is a very good one. I can only presume that his darts aren't yet up to standard and perhaps he was the only other hooker fit if Horton is perhaps carrying a knock. Still odd.

GeordieFalcon wrote:As long as he doesnt have the Sinkler crash in form...half the player he was before he went to Bristol.

That's what i was worried about when he first announced his transfer but so far so good, hopefully Sinkler will improve

GeordieFalcon wrote:As long as he doesnt have the Sinkler crash in form...half the player he was before he went to Bristol.

You mean the one Sinckler suffered having come back early from the Lions rest period...

king_carlos wrote:Finally got around to watching Chiefs vs Tigers in its entirety. A frustrating watch that felt like seeing Tigers tactics from 2020/21. Even with the absentees there was some pretty poor rugby in there at times.

Last season Tigers came out on top of a lot of these tight finishes. That wasn't all luck of course. The massively improved fitness since Aled Walters joined, astute use of the bench and tactics that smartly exploited tired opposition in the final stages were all key. Tigers would commonly go through a lot of phases in the final 10-15 minutes with defences tiring even if they'd kicked a lot for the preceding 65-70 minutes for instance. There was certainly an element of luck in winning that many tight finishes though. Whilst the turnaround under Borthwick has been remarkable there was that element of luck flattering Tigers during the huge winning run last season.

I'll be interested to see how Borthwick deals with the increased international absentees (already being felt in Heyes, Chessum, JvP, Porter and Steward missing due to rest after the summer tours) and key players moving on. I like the look of the recruitment and squad but there is an obvious challenge that comes with the increased expectation (hence increased preparation/focus from opposition) combined with more callups. Added to the element of luck last season we had Ford available for most the first 5 months of the season for instance as he dropped by England.

One takeaway for me was Taufete'e not coming on. We were lacking carriers and he is a very good one. I can only presume that his darts aren't yet up to standard and perhaps he was the only other hooker fit if Horton is perhaps carrying a knock. Still odd.

I think Clare stayed on because we were battling hard and he was the third or fourth highest tackler in the game (iirc he made 20 tackles). If Big Joe is a newer addition maybe he's not up to Walters fitness standards just yet.

I thought Ford was a massive loss at the weekend. He was head and shoulders above any other flyhalf in the first half of last season. The patience in attack was badly missing at the weekend. Burns kicked well from the first 35 mins but Ford used to do that and when we had the ball direct the troops, when Freddie got it he quickly looked for the try. To many golden chance moves and when we hadn't really warmed into the game or earned the opportunity. Gopperth in the second half looked lost.

The lack of Steward and Hegarty was a problem, no one commanded the backfield and it left us open to contests in the air. Hegarty leaves at the start of December and as you say Steward will miss the 6N period. By the 6N period Watson will either be back with England or injured so there needs to be a better answer than Ashton if we're going to play kick heavy tactics.

I still hold with, if Ford was at 10 we won that game at a canter. The forwards looked good but the backs looked lost. Questions around Wigglesworth as attack coach remain.

According to Charlie Morgan the 2nd most kicking metres since the start of last season and 2nd lowest running metres. Perhaps if Ford had played he may have ignored the tactics a bit more or got a lucky bounce but it was clearly what Borthwick wanted to see.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:As long as he doesnt have the Sinkler crash in form...half the player he was before he went to Bristol.

You mean the one Sinckler suffered having come back early from the Lions rest period...

And hes still not the player he was...lost all his aggression and just meanders around the park looking half interested.

At least thats one thing that wont happen to Genge i guess.

Just creates sizzling tries now.

Who were the two players that almost caught LRZ in Glaws vs Wasps? They got gas.

Crossdale and Bassett.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just creates sizzling tries now.

Thats ok then...thats all we want from our tightheads...be like rugby league soon.

I mean he's still great in the scrum and comfortably the best tight head England has. The guys class, and I do like both our premier props are playing together regularly now, that can only help the national side.

No 7&1/2 wrote:According to Charlie Morgan the 2nd most kicking metres since the start of last season and 2nd lowest running metres. Perhaps if Ford had played he may have ignored the tactics a bit more or got a lucky bounce but it was clearly what Borthwick wanted to see.

I don't think Ford would have ignored the tactics. He would have just played them better. Ford's a chess player whilst Burns and Gopperth are playing draughts. If you look at some of the late winners from last season they are from multi phase possession in the opposition 22. It's Ford moving the attack around and probing the opposition defence until he's isolated tired players and takes advantage. The one Vs Bristol is the best example. That patience was missing completely at the weekend.

Tigers got into the Chiefs half and 22 plenty on Saturday but whilst Chiefs were happy to rumble through phases at our line we went for dabs through or crossfield kicks early. We gave the ball back to Chiefs quickly without making them work hard to keep us out, particularly in the first half. Sometimes you've got to think slightly longer term and stress the opposition forwards to help yours out. It takes more energy to defend than it does attack. Chiefs were holding on and were on a final warning when we scored our second try (arguably should have seen Whitten sin binned) so we entirely had it in the locker to apply that pressure but didn't do so until after the break, presumably after Borthwick provided a rollicking.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Crossdale and Bassett.

To be fair Bassett wasn't getting there. Crossdale's cover was blooming impressive, rapid. I'd like to say that perhaps a better defender could have maybe applied more pressure at the end but that's harsh considering the effort he put in to get there.

GF, I've only seen the highlights but looks like Genge's arrival gas got Sinckler pumped up at Bristol. It's a ferocious front row for them now.

Yeah agree that Ford is several steps up on Burns. Both teams were playing and hoping the other would make a mistake, there'll be more enjoyable games to watch this year.

Doubt either of them are in Rees-Zammitt levels of quick considering he had a ball under his arm too. Supposedly it's only Radwan who is quicker in the prem, but then there's different ways of measuring that too. R-Z did it on a broken foot too!

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Crossdale and Bassett.

To be fair Bassett wasn't getting there. Crossdale's cover was blooming impressive, rapid. I'd like to say that perhaps a better defender could have maybe applied more pressure at the end but that's harsh considering the effort he put in to get there.

GF, I've only seen the highlights but looks like Genge's arrival gas got Sinckler pumped up at Bristol. It's a ferocious front row for them now.

They did well to keep up with him though I am sure I read somewhere that LRZ eased off in the 22 so he may have had a bit more if needed.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Crossdale and Bassett.

To be fair Bassett wasn't getting there. Crossdale's cover was blooming impressive, rapid. I'd like to say that perhaps a better defender could have maybe applied more pressure at the end but that's harsh considering the effort he put in to get there.

GF, I've only seen the highlights but looks like Genge's arrival gas got Sinckler pumped up at Bristol. It's a ferocious front row for them now.

Sam, i genuinely hope he has, as bar a few games for Bristol hes strolled around half a$$ed too often. Part of his game when at Quins was his aggression, and it just seemed to disappear when he moved.

If he can get it back he might get back to his best. He has Stuart looking useful now so has competition in an England shirt.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah agree that Ford is several steps up on Burns. Both teams were playing and hoping the other would make a mistake, there'll be more enjoyable games to watch this year.

Doubt either of them are in Rees-Zammitt levels of quick considering he had a ball under his arm too. Supposedly it's only Radwan who is quicker in the prem, but then there's different ways of measuring that too. R-Z did it on a broken foot too!

Oh the ball under the arm definitely slows you down. LRZ is the quickest in the league with very few who able to contest that. Doesn't stop Crossdale's effort being blooming impressive.

Oakdene, not really easing off. He had to go all the way on a diagonal line to the corner to make it. If he'd had more pace he'd have left them for dead and made it an easier finish. He does chop his stride in the few steps before the line but I think that's to facilitate the dive as opposed to a level of comfort. Crossdale realistically need another couple of metres before a try saver was on. His best hope at the weekend would have been to try and grab an arm.

Sinckler is a victim of just how brilliant is form was in 2019. Staying at that level consistently was very unlikely. Whilst his form dipped the reality is that if we didn't have Sinckler and a young TH emerged, for sake of argument let's call him Sinckley, performing at Sinckler's dipped level then we'd all suddenly be over the moon and needing a change of pants because of Sinckley.

His carrying dipped but his defence has remained terrific (how many THs are regularly active parts of strong kick chases?!) and his scrummaging is consistent.

Sinckler isn't dominant in the scrum but I can only really think of Malherbe who is consistently dominant in the scrum these days. Even then the stats around the Boks winnings penalties on their own put in compared to the opposition are really interesting. Plus Malherbe has a gigantic pack around him, their depth and 6-2 bench means the forwards are usually fresh.

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/leicester-tigers-boss-explains-england-7581602?fbclid=IwAR3MHSiDiAlbMEYLRC0f8GXpRCmfOKKO5Ohqro3DRmgq1ROSxVeet2PF3ts&fs=e&s=cl

Borthwick addressing the England players returning early or getting the 10 week rest malarkey with the interesting point that clubs in the Challenge Cup have simply said they won't play their England players during the European window.

Competing on multiple fronts always challenges teams depth as the season rolls on but not usually this early!

king_carlos wrote:

His carrying dipped but his defence has remained terrific (how many THs are regularly active parts of strong kick chases?!)

There is one Daniel Richard Cole who secured a chargedown try for his team at the weekend.

I don't recall anyone complaining about Sinckler when Bristol were up towards the top of the league. Last season when he came back too early from the Lions Rest Period it wasn't a great season but I agree with KC at no point was he likely to be dropped by England. Does worry me slightly that Pat Lam doesn't appear to have learned his lesson from last season.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

His carrying dipped but his defence has remained terrific (how many THs are regularly active parts of strong kick chases?!)

There is one Daniel Richard Cole who secured a chargedown try for his team at the weekend.

I don't recall anyone complaining about Sinckler when Bristol were up towards the top of the league. Last season when he came back too early from the Lions Rest Period it wasn't a great season but I agree with KC at no point was he likely to be dropped by England. Does worry me slightly that Pat Lam doesn't appear to have learned his lesson from last season.

I did

Sitting here trying to assess Saints performance this past weekend.  So incredibly flat and error prone in the first 60 minutes.  For the last 20 they tightened up considerably and launched their all out attack, scored three tries, but came up short.  Vague hints of their issues of the past few seasons.  

Of course, their three tries occurred in garbaage time, so not 100% sure how that will translate to this coming weekend.  And, with Saints playing London Irish, if both teams get in the scoring mood, we could be looking at 70+ points scored in the match.  If Saints don't get their defense up and attacking early, this could be a long day.

Apparently LRZ's boot was broken, hence his slow speed for that try!

yappysnap wrote:Apparently LRZ's boot was broken, hence his slow speed for that try!

He seems quite the slacker.

yappysnap wrote:Apparently LRZ's boot was broken, hence his slow speed for that try!

I've heard various excuses from Glaws/Welsh posters as to why he didn't casually race then length of the pitch leaving everyone in his dust. The dude is clearly among if not the quickest in the league but other players are allowed to be rapid as well. Some torn laces would have really only made a difference if it caused the boot to come loose. I've played with a damaged boot on a couple of occasions (amateur leagues big forwards like to stand on backs feet). It's an annoyance but I didn't notice a massive difference.

I'm sure LRZ will be racing in for several more in the coming weeks so we'll see if he is catchable or not. Apparently he's been over in the States during the summer working on his footwork and speed. Scary prospect for a lot of back three players.