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England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 24 Nov 2022, 5:37 am

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

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Post by Geordie Wed 07 Dec 2022, 1:57 pm

Oakdene wrote:Do you all think there will be a change from Farrell at 12?

Why not have Farrell at 10 and Kelly at 12. That Kelly is never injured and plays an insane amount of games for the tigers each season.
Some player.

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Post by Collapse2005 Wed 07 Dec 2022, 2:03 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:As long as Jonny Hill isn't involved for a bit.

Different coach different standards perhaps. Hill is still a very useful player if the discipline is sorted.

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Post by Mr Bounce Wed 07 Dec 2022, 2:04 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
Mr Bounce wrote:As long as Jonny Hill isn't involved for a bit.

Different coach different standards perhaps. Hill is still a very useful player if the discipline is sorted.

Possibly. But his recent performances suggest a rest might do some good

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Post by majesticimperialman Wed 07 Dec 2022, 2:06 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:With Eddie Jones now gone from  the England squad we will soon have a new coach. I say the new coach should start with a new squad and forget nexr years RWC concentrate on the 6nations and build from there.

I've moved to the edge of my seat in anticipation of how wrong you get the names in your preferred match day squad.

Is your seat on the edge  of a cliff?

If so could you maybe  move aa little bit further over the Cliff maybe. thumbsup

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 07 Dec 2022, 2:36 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:With Eddie Jones now gone from  the England squad we will soon have a new coach. I say the new coach should start with a new squad and forget nexr years RWC concentrate on the 6nations and build from there.

I've moved to the edge of my seat in anticipation of how wrong you get the names in your preferred match day squad.

Is your seat on the edge  of a cliff?

If so could you maybe  move aa little bit further over the Cliff maybe. thumbsup

Who is Cliff? Not my cup of tea really.

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Post by Scottrf Wed 07 Dec 2022, 3:40 pm

Geordie wrote:
Oakdene wrote:Do you all think there will be a change from Farrell at 12?

Why not have Farrell at 10 and Kelly at 12. That Kelly is never injured and plays an insane amount of games for the tigers each season.
Some player.
Because Marcus Smith is our most exciting player.

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Post by Geordie Wed 07 Dec 2022, 3:44 pm

Is exciting what we need?

Quality and efficient might be the order of the day initially.

Alternatively go for both Quality and efficiency and play George Ford.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 07 Dec 2022, 3:49 pm

Yeah, I'd quite like to be entertained as rugby is about entertainment! Ford and Smith look to be very much touch and go for the 6Ns anyway.

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Post by Geordie Wed 07 Dec 2022, 3:52 pm

Fiji were renowned as entertainers....didnt get them far.

You need a balance.



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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 07 Dec 2022, 3:56 pm

Geordie wrote:Fiji were renowned as entertainers....didnt get them far.

You need a balance.



Balance is great. Entertain and win. If not, entertain. You can come away buzzing from sport after defeat and it's great. You can sit and watch dirge like we did in 2020 and feel flat.

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Post by Geordie Wed 07 Dec 2022, 4:10 pm

Entertaining losses become frustrating and boring eventually....

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 07 Dec 2022, 4:19 pm

Geordie wrote:Entertaining losses become frustrating and boring eventually....

Personal opinion of course. I'd rather watch LI than Exeter most of the time.

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Post by Geordie Wed 07 Dec 2022, 4:21 pm

Yes...bottom 2 in the division is a great place to be, at least your being entertained.

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Post by mountain man Wed 07 Dec 2022, 4:38 pm

I'll take a boring win over entertaining loss every time. Obviously entertaining and winning is ideal, see NZ.

Pro sport especially Internationals is all about winning. That's it. Yes fans want to be entertained but players, teams and coaches want first and foremost to win.

In saying that it was obvious even before kick off England were not going to match SA physically so they should have gone all out attack. Instead they did a half arsed job at trying to stay in game and ended up losing playing badly.
Net result Jones gets sacked.

Jones used to say he always picked a horses for courses team and tactics but I don't think he did. He tried to out muscle SA and it was never going to work. Didn't in 2019 and didn't in last game. Think that's why he got the boot, the RFU looked behind curtain and realised Jones wasn't a wizard after all and his time was up.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 07 Dec 2022, 4:43 pm

Just read a bit more into that Jones Malins thing. That's pretty sh***y behaviour. I'd expect that Jones was a better man manager than that.

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Post by Scottrf Wed 07 Dec 2022, 4:57 pm

Exciting not entertaining. Most able to cause problems for the opposition and unlock defences.

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Post by Collapse2005 Wed 07 Dec 2022, 5:30 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just read a bit more into that Jones Malins thing. That's pretty sh***y behaviour. I'd expect that Jones was a better man manager than that.

This was always going to happen, there are endless stories of his mistreatment of staff and players. Im sure there will be more. Mike Browne, Marlin Yarde, Zack Mercer etc.


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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed 07 Dec 2022, 6:20 pm

What happened to Brown and Mercer like? As for Yarde hope it was something absolutely hideous and he still bears the scars.

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Post by Scottrf Wed 07 Dec 2022, 6:47 pm

This has a bit on Jones, Mercer etc (next pages)

https://www.ruck.co.uk/players-reveal-eddie-jones-unacceptable-behaviour-max-malins-his-latest-victim/

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed 07 Dec 2022, 6:56 pm

Collapse2005 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Just read a bit more into that Jones Malins thing. That's pretty sh***y behaviour. I'd expect that Jones was a better man manager than that.

This was always going to happen, there are endless stories of his mistreatment of staff and players. Im sure there will be more. Mike Browne, Marlin Yarde, Zack Mercer etc.


Virtually all of which are from anonymous sources. Plenty of players on the record saying he was instrumental in improving them as players. Now he's gone we might some more on the record opinions but sniping at the incumbent manager isn't unusual for England journals irrelevant of the sport.

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Post by dummy_half Wed 07 Dec 2022, 11:12 pm

On the radio this morning, the comment was that fans will put up with defeats if the performances are good, or will accept mediocre entertainment if the team is winning. Unfortunately, for about the last 18 months, England have rarely managed either.

Of course, looking forward, it might be that a refresh of the coaching setup will re-ignite performances from what on paper is still a pretty good set of players (even if Jones's selections in certain positions became increasingly baffling). Look at the England cricket team - they didn't make wholesale changes to the playing squad when McCullum took over, but had a major change of mindset that allowed players to play with much more freedom A couple of wins and the confidence flooded over them resulting in several being in the form of their lives. Not saying Borthwick is McCullum, but you never know what a freshening up of the team environment can achieve.

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Post by yappysnap Wed 07 Dec 2022, 11:43 pm

I am kind of looking forward to the 6N's now though, which I guess is a win for the RFU as prior to this a lot of fans had been falling away it seems.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 08 Dec 2022, 3:09 am

Scottrf wrote:This has a bit on Jones, Mercer etc (next pages)

https://www.ruck.co.uk/players-reveal-eddie-jones-unacceptable-behaviour-max-malins-his-latest-victim/
Ruck are about as likely to report intelligently on rugby as they are to achieving cold fusion and solving the clean energy crisis so probably worth taking anything on there with a pinch of salt.

In general coaches in all sports that tailor their motivation/player management to each individual get many very right and some very wrong. Mike Spracklen in rowing is a great example of this. A legendary figure in rowing who inspired many more than any other coach but has been accused by a few of pushing them too far or in the wrong way.

The other end of the spectrum are coaches who manage all players in a similar/homogenous manner which ruffles fewer feathers but some would argue doesn't push the ones more divisive coaches push the buttons of in the right way onto the greatness they could achieve. Lancaster may fall on that side of the argument. Re Jones I feel Genge is an example of a player who clicked very well with that extreme management and has pushed onto being a genuinely world class prop even amongst England's malaise.

In general I sit in the camp of coaches can only do what they can with the right personnel at their disposal. John Buchanan the Aussie cricket coach that oversaw one of the best sides of all time has been lauded and lambasted by players in equal measure. He had a collection of all time cricketing greats in one XI though so guess what, they did alright when playing cricket together!

In this latter stint as coach Jones tried a bold new attacking structure that required players to slot in wherever required. Tantamount to this was experienced playmakers and outside backs. Farrell and most our best outside backs were either injured or well below their best after injury for much of the experiment. It largely produced pish results.

Had we gone with a less bold change in game plan in the face of the same availability issues with our best players do I think the results might have been slightly better? Frankly, yes. Do I think we'd have won a grand slam or Six Nations with a different game plan but the same availability issues surrounding our best players? Frankly, no.

My general view is that when their sides do well coaches often get a bit too much credit and when they do badly they get a bit too much heat. I find that's the same across all sport whether domestic or international as well.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 08 Dec 2022, 7:52 am

The Telegraph reporting that Tigers happy to let Borthwick go for £200k but if the RFU want to pilfer the entire coaching staff it's a cool £2m.

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Post by Geordie Thu 08 Dec 2022, 8:05 am

Yeah just seen that...wow.

Robertson it is then....

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Post by Geordie Thu 08 Dec 2022, 8:25 am

In all serious though...why do we need all the coaches.

A new defence coach has just been signed up.
The S&C coach is highly rated but im sure we can find really good ones out there...?

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Dec 2022, 8:58 am

It's another reason to strongly go for Robertson. I can understand that Leicester feel peeved as it's mid season etc but this sort of thing can easily come back and bite you. The RFU move on, Borthwick feels he's been held back, disenchantment, ends up leaving in the summer etc etc.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 08 Dec 2022, 9:27 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's another reason to strongly go for Robertson. I can understand that Leicester feel peeved as it's mid season etc but this sort of thing can easily come back and bite you. The RFU move on, Borthwick feels he's been held back, disenchantment, ends up leaving in the summer etc etc.

My understanding is that the RFU and Borthwick had an agreement in place for him to join at the end of the season. Tigers were made aware early and have been making preparations. Everyone was happy, no compensation. The RFU pulled the trigger early and now want Borthwick to start immediately, possibly with all his coaching staff (that's being negotiated).

I would expect Tigers demanded compensation is reflective of how much the RFU is trying to screw them over. The later Borthwick leaves the less compensation will be demanded. If he doesn't take his coaching staff with him then that will also be cheaper. The RFU rocking up and offering £200k to torpedo Tigers season has understandably mean met with disapproval.

Robertson has a contract with the NZRU until 2024. If you think they are just going to let him leave for diddly squat you are on some pretty hefty opioids.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Dec 2022, 9:30 am

Understandable from the clubs perspective like I said. Human nature the way it is, people can get annoyed by being denied what they want.

Robertson will be worth the money. I'm not getting that wish anyway, it'll be Borthwick.

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Post by Geordie Thu 08 Dec 2022, 9:32 am

Yeah it'll be borthwick.

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Post by mountain man Thu 08 Dec 2022, 9:37 am

Borthwick seems the one, whether he'll be too much a safe pair of hands option though is the thing. Hence O'Gara would have been nice maybe as attack coach.
The twin calls of winning but also entertaining rugby not necessarily going to happen. Think RFU just be glad to get a coach in who won't cause waves in media and will concentrate on rugby nothing else. No dubious sound bites for press etc to get excited over. Plus if Sinfield in as defence coach then dream ticket as regards getting good coverage.

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Post by Geordie Thu 08 Dec 2022, 9:39 am

i dont think he's a safe pair of hands.

He'll sort out a strong piece game which is essential at this level.

But if he has the right coaches around him...a strong game can be developed,

9 JVP
10 Smith
12 Kelly
13 Lawrence

Would be a start ignoring the obvious Farrell conundrum.

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Post by mountain man Thu 08 Dec 2022, 9:45 am

Regards RFU/media he will be. The RFU must have been as fed up and exasperated as rest of us with stupid stuff Jones came out with which only motivated opposition and put pressure on England team.

Regards set piece, that was always Jones mantra. To get England back to core identity of strong scrum/line out etc and dominate physically. It didn't work out.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Dec 2022, 9:51 am

Geordie wrote:i dont think he's a safe pair of hands.

He'll sort out a strong piece game which is essential at this level.

But if he has the right coaches around him...a strong game can be developed,

9 JVP
10 Smith
12 Kelly
13 Lawrence

Would be a start ignoring the obvious Farrell conundrum.

Throw in Quirke, Mitchell, Ojomoh and Joseph and there's the start of a backline that is exciting and ambitious. If he kicks the leather off it and doesn't play to strengths tho. ...

A fresh start is needed to break the malaise. If he has Youngs involved in the 6Ns and lots of kicking off 9 and just playing territory he will need the wins immediately to justify it.

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Post by mountain man Thu 08 Dec 2022, 9:56 am

Will he drop Farrell? Can't see it myself. I'd love to see that centre combination. Also issue of wings to sort out as well.

Plus would Borthwick drop Ben Youngs, his club stalwart. Be interesting to see.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Dec 2022, 10:02 am

Well Farrell will be 10 in the 6Ns, unless he's about to ask Fin Smith to start.

Can you imagine though if we go into the 6Ns with Borthwick in charge...we're lining up as

Youngs
Farrell
Kelly
Porter

And we fail to win back the Calcutta Cup. I think I said on the BBC forum that I reckon the new coach had a bit of a free swing for 18 months. Thinking about it again I do think there are caveats to that!

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Post by Geordie Thu 08 Dec 2022, 10:03 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Geordie wrote:i dont think he's a safe pair of hands.

He'll sort out a strong piece game which is essential at this level.

But if he has the right coaches around him...a strong game can be developed,

9 JVP
10 Smith
12 Kelly
13 Lawrence

Would be a start ignoring the obvious Farrell conundrum.

Throw in Quirke, Mitchell, Ojomoh and Joseph and there's the start of a backline that is exciting and ambitious. If he kicks the leather off it and doesn't play to strengths tho. ...

A fresh start is needed to break the malaise. If he has Youngs involved in the 6Ns and lots of kicking off 9 and just playing territory he will need the wins immediately to justify it.

Absolutely...there is real talent in the league without question. He'll need to find a nice balance between attacking excitement and kicking territory...but im sure the right coaching set up will do that.

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Post by Geordie Thu 08 Dec 2022, 10:04 am

mountain man wrote:Will he drop Farrell? Can't see it myself. I'd love to see that centre combination. Also issue of wings to sort out as well.

Plus would Borthwick drop Ben Youngs, his club stalwart. Be interesting to see.

Again....loads of young talent. He needs to identify his system, style and then choose appropriately...but he has options with size, power, pace, and that X-factor that everyone keeps lauding the SA wingers for.

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Post by Geordie Thu 08 Dec 2022, 10:06 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well Farrell will be 10 in the 6Ns, unless he's about to ask Fin Smith to start.

Can you imagine though if we go into the 6Ns with Borthwick in charge...we're lining up as

Youngs
Farrell
Kelly
Porter Lawrence

And we fail to win back the Calcutta Cup. I think I said on the BBC forum that I reckon the new coach had a bit of a free swing for 18 months. Thinking about it again I do think there are caveats to that!

I could even cope with that to be honest. A new young midfield.
Farrell gets a lot of criticsm and im included in that...but we know he can set a back line away...he does it for Saracens in all competitions.

So if he is kept on (which is guarenteed) ...he needs to be more like the Farrell for Saracens at 10. Bring Smith on to finish initially

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Post by mountain man Thu 08 Dec 2022, 10:20 am

Geordie wrote: Bring Smith on to finish initially

Exactly what I called for this autumn but did Jones listen? Smith Farrell just didn't work, will it with new coach guess we'll wait and find out. I would despair though if we kept Youngs, Smith Farrell at 9 10 12.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Dec 2022, 10:22 am

And it's the huge question of Borthwick. Is his team playing the way they are because that's the best use of the players at his disposal, or does he think this is the way. If the RFU are looking at it as above that the name of the game is to win and that's it I doubt there're even asking the questions of how he would go about those things. If they style is play off mistakes after kicking them the ball and it doesn't work, and his selections look similar to Jones where does that leave us (and the RFU)?

There's an opportunity here to select some youngsters, create excitement run the ball, play quick, tighten up the set piece a bit (seriously Proudfoot for me has taken us backwards at a rate of knots). Farrell as you say has been a part of an offloading fast, free scoring Saracens team, a team previously as conservative as Leicester are so it's not as if a coach can't change their spots to match new laws/players/etc.

And there's the risk of well Youngs is experienced Farrell is steady, pick 2 centres who can defend, like the above or Slade at 13. We play to win. We kick it a lot, and those kicks don't find touch or the chase is slow and Scotland run it back and score. Any feeling of a new dawn will feel far away. This in part is what I was saying earlier, Go similar to a Jones team and play by percentages and maybe win 21 20 with a last minute kick; well there'll be some who come away and think yes we're back in the game but I think some will be thinking hmm what's changed. Go with youth provide some excitement and miss a kick to win in the last minute, I think there will be more people coming away thinking, well worth watching that and don't some of these newbies have a high ceiling for improvement.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Dec 2022, 10:24 am

mountain man wrote:
Geordie wrote: Bring Smith on to finish initially

Exactly what I called for this autumn but did Jones listen? Smith Farrell just didn't work, will it with new coach guess we'll wait and find out. I would despair though if we kept Youngs, Smith Farrell at 9 10 12.

Before Smith came in Ford and Farrell weren't working though, and they have in the past to a very high standard. Smith is the best fly half we have by a distance, Jones wasn't getting the best out of him....or to be fair anyone for the last 3 years.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 08 Dec 2022, 10:49 am

This hype around Robertson is truly baffling. Borthwick has achieved much more in the game and has better CV to boot.

I'm not Borthwick's biggest fan(the rugby isn't the most exciting to watch), but he's proven he would be a better option than Robertson who has so many question marks for such a job.

Anyway.....I'm still clinging onto McCall!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Dec 2022, 10:59 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:This hype around Robertson is truly baffling. Borthwick has achieved much more in the game and has better CV to boot.

I'm not Borthwick's biggest fan(the rugby isn't the most exciting to watch), but he's proven he would be a better option than Robertson who has so many question marks for such a job.

Anyway.....I'm still clinging onto McCall!

Why has he proved he's a better option than Robertson? More experience as an assistant at international level?

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Post by Oakdene Thu 08 Dec 2022, 11:00 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:This hype around Robertson is truly baffling. Borthwick has achieved much more in the game and has better CV to boot.

I'm not Borthwick's biggest fan(the rugby isn't the most exciting to watch), but he's proven he would be a better option than Robertson who has so many question marks for such a job.

Anyway.....I'm still clinging onto McCall!

Robertson has won the ITM cup twice, won the under 20s world cup, won the Super Rugby title 3 times (in his first 3 years as coach of the Crusaders) & won 2 Rugby Aotearoa championships.

Unless you're counting what he has won as a player which is pointless as players don't necessarily make good coaches, see Gary Neville.

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Post by Geordie Thu 08 Dec 2022, 11:21 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
mountain man wrote:
Geordie wrote: Bring Smith on to finish initially

Exactly what I called for this autumn but did Jones listen? Smith Farrell just didn't work, will it with new coach guess we'll wait and find out. I would despair though if we kept Youngs, Smith Farrell at 9 10 12.

Before Smith came in Ford and Farrell weren't working though, and they have in the past to a very high standard. Smith is the best fly half we have by a distance, Jones wasn't getting the best out of him....or to be fair anyone for the last 3 years.

I think your right here. No-one has been outstanding...

Despite me being argumentative above re excitement...i agree totally Smith is our best 10...

However i do like the idea of Kelly and Lawrence at 12 and 13...and a Smith, Kelly, Lawrence midfield whilst HUGELY exciting is incredibly inexperienced...especially for a 6n debut run out!

So then... The question is...do we go back to the drawing board and have Farrell at 10 with Smith coming off the bench...or just play the exciting combo...bearing mind our first game is a home game against the Scots...which will be a baptism of fire for a young midfield like that!

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu 08 Dec 2022, 12:58 pm

Would love to see that midfield Geordie. Kelly is obvs just back so his form could be iffy but looked excellent in his first game back and Lawrence has been the pick of the bunch in that Bath side.

Seen in the Guardian that Jones has no limitation in turns of picking up jobs in his severance package but that that package costs the RFU less than the total cost of the remainder of his contract. Win and lose there.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Thu 08 Dec 2022, 1:08 pm

Oakdene wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:This hype around Robertson is truly baffling. Borthwick has achieved much more in the game and has better CV to boot.

I'm not Borthwick's biggest fan(the rugby isn't the most exciting to watch), but he's proven he would be a better option than Robertson who has so many question marks for such a job.

Anyway.....I'm still clinging onto McCall!

Robertson has won the ITM cup twice, won the under 20s world cup, won the Super Rugby title 3 times (in his first 3 years as coach of the Crusaders) & won 2 Rugby Aotearoa championships.

Unless you're counting what he has won as a player which is pointless as players don't necessarily make good coaches, see Gary Neville.

He took over the best side (by some distance) in Super Rugby and carried on winning.......great. He's never coached outside of this bubble...he's always had the best players at his disposal. He's never coached outside of NZ, he's never had to turn a team around (which he would need to)....he doesn't have any experience in the NH, has no experience of the English game (press, players, conditions etc etc).

Borthwick has a much better CV. He's coached at International level with Japan and England......having hugely successful spells with each and with much varied players at his disposal. He took over a frankly awful Tigers side and has turned them into a table topping, championship winning side. He knows the English game inside out....he knows the players, he knows the press...he knows the pressure.

Again....I'm far from a Borthwick fanboy, but he's a much better choice on paper than Robertson. Robertson may end up being a great International coach but he has nothing on his CV to overly suggest this. Robertson is the risky choice...this is not the time for a risky choice. If we were going to go for somebody like Robertson (and I can't believe we'd be looking at him tbh), it would be straight after a WC were he would have time.

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Post by Geordie Thu 08 Dec 2022, 1:10 pm

So if your picking two very young but inform centres...do you play an equally young slightly more experience 10...or a 100 cap general who plays for a club that wins ALOT.

Especially in a first game at home v Scotland.

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Post by king_carlos Thu 08 Dec 2022, 1:18 pm

Geordie wrote:In all serious though...why do we need all the coaches.

A new defence coach has just been signed up.
The S&C coach is highly rated but im sure we can find really good ones out there...?
Taking one of the highest pressure jobs in the game without the coaching team he wants feels unlikely. I don't think many coaches would take a role in those circumstances. I think for a coach to be a success in that sort of role he needs full control whether that be game plan, selection or coaches.

Tigers view will be how much revenue might we miss out on if midseason coaching turmoil means not making knockout rugby or poor form resulting in a dip in attendance. A fair view to have.

The RFU's view when getting rid of Jones will presumably have been the exact same. They've been getting heat over ticket prices, attendances at Twickers, they were seeing apathy from the fans. As I think Poorfour laid out well a few pages back £2m will be lost very quickly by the RFU if Twickenham as a few thousand seats empty for a run of games.

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