England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Yes but if he can get the early days of Jones back and improve on them...then im more than happy with Borthwick

Yeah. Just guess it's a bit depressing to hear everyone think he'll just copy the Leicester blue print.

Solid basics, aggressive defence and pragmatic attack. It's what you see from good international teams. The international teams who like to throw the ball around don't do quite as well.

The Tigers tactics also fluctuated dependent on the game. Some games they ran it more than others.

You mean NZ and France?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Yes but if he can get the early days of Jones back and improve on them...then im more than happy with Borthwick

Yeah. Just guess it's a bit depressing to hear everyone think he'll just copy the Leicester blue print.

Solid basics, aggressive defence and pragmatic attack. It's what you see from good international teams. The international teams who like to throw the ball around don't do quite as well.

The Tigers tactics also fluctuated dependent on the game. Some games they ran it more than others.

You mean NZ and France?

France kick more than any other team. The play great rugby but normally when they are in a good position to do so. If they don't have territory or the speed of ball they are happy to kick the leather off it. I'm hoping England do something similar, Tigers tended to last season. Get into a good position and then let Ford pull the strings, hasn't worked as well this season but we've not had a test quality flyhalf pulling the strings.

NZ aren't looking great at the minute with the throw it to the star player and hope they create something strategy. Schmidt's taken a greater role there to give them a more pragmatic edge.

Kicking isn't a problem. Boring, predictable, bad kicking is.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Kicking isn't a problem. Boring, predictable, bad kicking is.

That's execution rather than game plan or "blueprint" as you put it above though. Any game plan poorly executed will be bad.

I think England's attempt to move to that fluid attacking structure is a good example of that. England did it abysmally most the time hence the poor results and incredibly frustrating performances. I wouldn't be surprised if we see sides with personnel more suited to it take on a similar plan with great success though. There are already signs of the ABs doing similar by incorporating a ton of playmakers with Ioane running a wingers support lines from 13 and plenty of forwards with great handling skills.

The French forwards are made for that sort of game plan rather than rigid 1-3-3-1 type setup too. Their best back rows are very mobile link players. Now we are seeing Woki magically turn himself into a lock and Flament flourishing. That's a big shift from Willemse and Le Roux in the second row. Marchand is terrific in the loose as a support player.

Even if the best outside backs had been fit I think in the forwards England would have been forcing square pegs into rounds holes chasing that structure. Hence the poor execution but I don't necessarily think that game plan or attacking structure can't work. In fact fast forward a few years and I suspect we may see many more attacks being more fluid in the attacking structure.

Depends if you've drummed it into the players that it's the game plan and stick to it. Even good kicking can be boring e.g. SA.

No 7&1/2 wrote:They would have been stupid not to consider him.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-11448189/England-hold-talks-Scott-Robinson-succeeding-Eddie-Jones-2023-World-Cup.html

Reads a bit loose to say the least....not seeing it.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He'd likely have taken the England job if offered though.

Why would he? It's not his dream job (but it would rule him out of getting his dream job), trying to get out of his NZ contract would have been complicated and the England team play nothing like the rugby he prefers with him knowing none of the players which is awkward with the 6N imminent and a world cup round the corner.

It is Borthwick's dream job, Tigers had already promised not to stand in his way (just compensation to work out), the England side were previously coached by his mentor and he had been an assistant. He knows the strengths and weaknesses, he knows most of the players.

Exactly this with Borthwick...he ticks every box really. He's the only logical choice, nobody else comes close.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They would have been stupid not to consider him.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-11448189/England-hold-talks-Scott-Robinson-succeeding-Eddie-Jones-2023-World-Cup.html

Reads a bit loose to say the least....not seeing it.

You're not seeing what?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He'd likely have taken the England job if offered though.

Why would he? It's not his dream job (but it would rule him out of getting his dream job), trying to get out of his NZ contract would have been complicated and the England team play nothing like the rugby he prefers with him knowing none of the players which is awkward with the 6N imminent and a world cup round the corner.

It is Borthwick's dream job, Tigers had already promised not to stand in his way (just compensation to work out), the England side were previously coached by his mentor and he had been an assistant. He knows the strengths and weaknesses, he knows most of the players.

Exactly this with Borthwick...he ticks every box really. He's the only logical choice, nobody else comes close.

Everyone has their preferred choice. Just saying I'd have had him or McCall.

Hodgson and Proudfoot to move on imminently according to Charlie Morgan. Cockerell staying.

Always liked Borthwick and he's gained good experience with his previous role. Wish him well.

I expect Scotland will feel the wrath in the 6N first round with a team desperate to please him and with everyone in the warm bath of the New Coach Feelgood Factor.

BBC and Dawson's take on what Borthwick needs to do:

1. A selection conundrum
Marcus Smith, Owen Farrell and Manu Tuilagi
Marcus Smith, Owen Farrell and Manu Tuilagi were the preferred combination by the end of Eddie Jones' reign
The immediate priority for Borthwick is to sort out the attacking heart of the team - the fly-half, inside and outside centre.

During the autumn, we saw Marcus Smith, Owen Farrell and Manu Tuilagi fill those positions. It was Eddie Jones' preferred combination, but we didn't see the cutting edge we all wanted.

If Borthwick is going to use his arrival for an honest assessment of where England are, then Farrell's place is under threat.

His form over the past three years has been nowhere near where it was before that. For all the leadership in training and setting of standards off the pitch, he has not been performing as he can.

Statistically there are better inside centres in the Premiership, ranging from the very experienced to the new. Could any of them build a relationship with Smith, allowing him to become the general of this England side?

Whatever the solution, time is short. Borthwick needs to be consistent in his selection through that area to build an understanding of each other's games and the team's gameplan collectively.

2. Choose a captain
Courtney Lawes
Borthwick played alongside and against Courtney Lawes, who led England in Farrell's absence in autumn 2021
Regardless of his place in the team, I would be very surprised if Farrell continues as captain.

Relieving him of the press commitment and public scrutiny might free him up and help him find his game.

And there are plenty of candidates, well known to Borthwick, to take it on.

When Borthwick picked Ellis Genge to succeed Tom Youngs as Leicester captain, it was seen by some as a surprise choice. But it paid off handsomely with Genge leading the Tigers to the Premiership.

Borthwick has seen Maro Itoje since the start. A teenage Itoje made his Saracens debut in Borthwick's final season as a player at the club.

Courtney Lawes has been a hugely successful England captain when he has played and has a different style to Farrell. Borthwick captained him for England and coached him for the Lions.

Could it be a left-field shout like Jamie George, who Borthwick has worked with extensively at Saracens and in his role as England's line-out guru?

Having a forward as a captain - as all the above are - can be an advantage with a front-row seat for the set-piece and the breakdown.

3. Define England's attacking identity
England players Luke Cowan Dickie and Freddie Steward
England scored only eight tries in the 2022 Six Nations, five of which came in one game against Italy
There is a twin challenge. The team have lacked a consistent method of breaking down the opposition for a number of years now. For me, Jones was too focused on the game's global comings and goings - what other teams were doing tactically, how the laws were being interpreted elsewhere

He was always trying to be one step ahead of the trends when he decided how England were going to play.

You have to have an identity which is the core way of how you are going to play. You certainly need options around that to adapt to opposition, officials and conditions, but that bedrock has to be there.


Borthwick appointment is not a knee-jerk reaction - RFU CEO Sweeney
England's best performances have come when they have taken games by the scruff of the neck, decided the tempo and run riot from the start.

The Rugby World Cup semi-final win over New Zealand in 2019 under Jones - arguably the greatest game England have ever played - came from pinning back the All Blacks and forcing them to adapt and switch styles.

The second part is England need to have the decision-makers in the team and a chain of command that can be nimble and agile enough to find another way to win.

Too often, when South Africa, France or Scotland have produced something unexpected, England have been too sluggish to change styles.

4. Reignite the players
England's players paddleboarding
Team-bonding activities have included giant paddleboarding in Jersey
I don't believe England are less strong or fit than the All Blacks or Springboks. I just don't believe it. But in the scrum they were shoved backwards in the final two matches of Jones' reign.

It isn't just the technical aspects of the set-piece, I think England are a tiny percentage off in mentality. Everyone is motivated to play for their country, but to get that thin margin of focus and desire that may be the difference. You need something more.

You have to wake up in the morning and get really excited about what you are doing day to day. Judging by some of the players' comments, that hasn't always been the case.

It is fundamental for Steve. He clearly has done something special at Leicester, turning a team of also-rans into champions.

If he can recreate some of that environment with England, the players there are going to get a real shot in the arm to carry them into the Rugby World Cup.

5. Reconnect the fans
England players on an advertising hoarding at Twickenham
England's matches are the prime source of revenue for the Rugby Football Union
This is one of the easier ones, but the connection to England's fans at Twickenham needs to be re-established. The boos at the end of the autumn defeat by the Springboks showed that relationship had been damaged.

Borthwick is not going to be a front-and-centre ringmaster, doing the television interviews and dropping buzz words. That is not his style. But he will know that England need to be doing more in exciting fans with how they play on the pitch and engaging with them off it.

It will be a real benefit to his team. Twickenham, when it is full of 80,000 fans and rocking, is a really difficult place to come and play.

At the end of the Jones era, teams fancied their chances of silencing the crowd and robbing England of momentum.

I reckon the answers will be:
1. he'll choose Kelly at 12, and I'm hoping we'll see Lawrence ahead of Slade at 13. It'll be made a bit easier as I doubt we'll have much choice on whether Farrell plays 10 or 12 with the injuries currently.
2. I'm hoping he signals a bit of a change and throws the arm band to Itoje.
3. So much now depends on the attack coach. You do start with the basics though, so yes does look like it will be kick and hope the opposition make errors. Hell this time around I'll be ok with making our maul look good again. Going into the warm up games though he has to show something more.
4. Should be the easiest thing surely. Everyone will be out to impress him, there will be some debutants, or newish caps.
5. The most unsure. As above I can't see a team that plays like his club getting people off their seats much. Wins are the thing that will give people belief, I guess some real gutsy defensive displays away to Wales and Ireland and keep it tight against France may signal to enough that we're going in the right direction.

7.5

I reckon the answers will be:

1. he'll choose Kelly at 12, and I'm hoping we'll see Lawrence ahead of Slade at 13. It'll be made a bit easier as I doubt we'll have much choice on whether Farrell plays 10 or 12 with the injuries currently.

I think it'll be
10 Farrell
12 Kelly
13 Slade, with Lawrence off the bench

2. I'm hoping he signals a bit of a change and throws the arm band to Itoje.

I can handle that if he stops the stupid cheering and clapping shennanigans...otherwise..someone else.

3. So much now depends on the attack coach. You do start with the basics though, so yes does look like it will be kick and hope the opposition make errors. Hell this time around I'll be ok with making our maul look good again. Going into the warm up games though he has to show something more.

Guess its what he decides with the attacking coach. Stick with Gleeson and give him a chance or bring a fresh guy in.

4. Should be the easiest thing surely. Everyone will be out to impress him, there will be some debutants, or newish caps.

Agreed...everyone should be motivated anyway

5. The most unsure. As above I can't see a team that plays like his club getting people off their seats much. Wins are the thing that will give people belief, I guess some real gutsy defensive displays away to Wales and Ireland and keep it tight against France may signal to enough that we're going in the right direction.

The fans will reconnect if they see some idea of a forward plan...and in general a strong physical team fighting and getting the basics right.

Some of those issues are easier than others to solve and like others have alluded to it mostly comes from the atmosphere created in training camps. S.B has sorted tigers penalty count and they seem less annoying in terms of cheap shots and general winding up than they used to (just a guy feeling not based on imperial data). I get the idea he gets his players laser focused on the job in hand and itoje and others need that focus to be the players they can be. Secondly I like the way his pack stays connected, they seem to know where to be, when to pick and go, when to break out and link with backs. Through in some quality offloading in contact and we might get a platform that produces more quick ball.

Having said that prem standard is not international standard so his stamp on the way we play will take time, although he does have experience of coaching at that standard. His first job in my mind will be get the buzz back into the players and get them loving the game again and that is hard to do for any manager.

No 7&1/2 wrote:
It is fundamental for Steve. He clearly has done something special at Leicester, turning a team of also-rans into champions.

Bit generous to call the team that finished 11th two seasons in a row also rans. Relegation fodder would have been more accurate.

1. A selection conundrum
- pick a midfield, this is the only one I actually agree with Dawson on. It's an area that's causing issues with our attack and defence. The 10/12/13 combination doesn't work and all three positions are open for offers at this point. We're guessing he'll turn to Kelly who became the foundation of the Tigers midfield but we'll have to wait and see if he has any other ideas.

2. Choose a captain
- he's got a selection of club captain's, just pick the one he trusts the most and move on. He knows them all from previous roles not a difficult task.

3. Define England's attacking identity
- easy to chirp about in the media but realistically well down the list of actual requirements.

4. Reignite the players
- media guff, they don't want to be there they'll be replaced.

5. Reconnect the fans
- win games = happy fans at this point, not difficult.

For me it's the midfield, discipline - so many brainless and unnecessary penalties and cards, then set piece. Once the set pieces are reliably firing there will be space for the new luck modified to do something with the ball. There's little point spending lots of time getting all deep and philosophical with the attack if we regularly get marched back 40m every fifth carry via a penalty or can't secure good ball for said attack.

I don't necessarily think we're all in the boat of win and we're happy. The dirge of 2020 still lulls me to sleep at night.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't necessarily think we're all in the boat of win and we're happy. The dirge of 2020 still lulls me to sleep at night.

No put it'll keep the press off his back and keep the majority of fans happy. The RFU will do nothing whilst your winning as well as it keeps the sponsors coming in and paying.

Everything is easier once you start winning, you can start using the momentum to trial new players and more innovative attacking systems. Try doing that whilst your losing, just ask Eddie.

Work on the basics, win ugly in the 6N and then come the summer use the pre world cup period to bring some more to the table. Hopefully by then confidence will have improved.

Show no attacking intent bar kicking and lose though....

Risky game.

I'm caught between optimism that Borthwick will know what went wrong for Jones and pessimism that he thinks a win is all that matters. It is entertainment.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Show no attacking intent bar kicking and lose though....

Risky game.

It's not a binary situation though, either you kick the leather off it or you play an all court game. France are one of the best watches in international rugby but kick more than anybody else. I think we'll play in the opposition third of the pitch but not a lot outside of that. The rolling maul to be a go to strength and a good kick chase as well. Easier to build more attacking phases if you have those foundations in place. I can see kicking to the corner rather than tough pot shots at goal being one of things we might move towards.

If you prioritise the attack first without those foundations you end up like Fiji or Scotland. Great in attack but there's a soft underbelly that can be exposed.

Play like Framce and I'm happy. It's not exactly like our defence is starting at Fijis level either. I go back to play exciting rugby and you lose you've been entertained. Play stodgy and lose and you come away dispondant, or like the recent past disinterested.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Play like Framce and I'm happy. It's not exactly like our defence is starting at Fijis level either. I go back to play exciting rugby and you lose you've been entertained. Play stodgy and lose and you come away dispondant, or like the recent past disinterested.

Losing pretty is still losing. No consolation for me.

I'd say our discipline is almost as bad as Fiji's.

Vesty and Evans from Quins being name checked for the attack coach.

Also Kelly has been mentioned at 12 so whilst nothing but chit chat...you'd say it looks like what we have thought will happen initially..

10 Farrell
12 Kelly

Adam Jones name checked as forwards coach too.

Really? I actually cant see that happening at all...however i would LOVE it...if it did! Hes a hell of a scrum coach.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Play like Framce and I'm happy. It's not exactly like our defence is starting at Fijis level either. I go back to play exciting rugby and you lose you've been entertained. Play stodgy and lose and you come away dispondant, or like the recent past disinterested.

Losing pretty is still losing. No consolation for me.

I'd say our discipline is almost as bad as Fiji's.

Winning boringly doesn't win you many friends, losing boringly wins you fewer!

Whos to say that the style of rugby will be boring anyway.

Each individual.

mikey_dragon wrote:Adam Jones name checked as forwards coach too.

As Geordie says he's probably the Prem's best scrum coach. Borthwick covers most of the forwards coaching but bringing in Jones to work with him would be a coup and a boost to our meh scrum.

Vesty would be the ideal attack coach, he's the outstanding candidate in the league.

So far the only rumours I've seen are that Brett Hodgson and Matt Proudfoot will be the ones to go. Cockerill and Gleeson retained at least in the short term.

So probably for the 6n....

HC - Borthwick
Defence - Sinfield
Attack - Gleeson
Forwards - Borthwick
Scrum - Cockerill
S&C - ??

Well it's pretty unlikely Borthwick be going for gung ho, pants on fire all out attack.
So a pragmatic, forward based, decent set piece orientated WIN would do me first up against Scotland.

That's what matters, a win first and foremost.

Progress from there.

Another rumour is Nick Evans for attack coach, which would be a decent option I think. But in Gleeson's defence it was Eddie running the show and picking the team so maybe Borthwick will retain him? And I fully agree that with the way Tigers have played and the limited prep time before Scotland we can expect a very pragmatic approach with a strong emphasis on the basics. Worked for Eddie in 2016 so fingers crossed it works again.

I see Stuart Barnes is calling for Earl to be an inside centre now.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I see Stuart Barnes is calling for Earl to be an inside centre now.

Stuart Barnes, can't believe he still works in media. Spouts nowt but garbage and has done for a couple of decades at least.

One thing Borthwick never had at Tigers was an experienced attack coach. Will be interesting to see if that adapt his practice any.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I see Stuart Barnes is calling for Earl to be an inside centre now.

Wow, we can partner Earl with Sam Simmonds in the centres.  Then we can satisfy the rumours/suggestions about both players in one game.  This would be great - England's opponents will be mightily confused....

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I see Stuart Barnes is calling for Earl to be an inside centre now.

Wow, we can partner Earl with Sam Simmonds in the centres.  Then we can satisfy the rumours/suggestions about both players in one game.  This would be great - England's opponents will be mightily confused....

These last 6 months we've only used the OC for clearing rucks and crashing the ball up. Might as well have played a flanker at 13.

To be fair Sam Simmonds is a 12! Ive said it for years....

When is the 6n squad normally announced?

Was 18th January this year so around about then

So not much time for players outside the current set up to really put their hand up...unless they have been all season like Ollie Lawrence, Ted Hill, Ben Earl

Expect much of a muchness with the first squad.

Could well be another set of games wasted if he does.

Is Barnes seriously saying Earl at 12? I mean in an emergency which sees several off injured etc then I suppose he could fill in there for 15 mins at end of game, rather like Nowell filling in at flanker but as a starter or designated centre? Madness.
I dont find Barnes as annoying as a lot do but this breaks new ground!

I know England been struggling for years to get centres sorted but there are better alternatives available and I don't mean Farrell.

Oh well. It's not going to happen so there is that.

I am looking forward to his first squad, I rather suspect not that many changes from Jones but we live in hope and as they say, it's the hope that kills...

Main changes will be enforced through injury i would think..

Any others would be the right calls...like an actual 12..Kelly and maybe Borthwick might like a look at George martin at this level.

mountain man wrote:Is Barnes seriously saying Earl at 12? I mean in an emergency which sees several off injured etc then I suppose he could fill in there for 15 mins at end of game, rather like Nowell filling in at flanker but as a starter or designated centre? Madness.
I dont find Barnes as annoying as a lot do but this breaks new ground!

I know England been struggling for years to get centres sorted but there are better alternatives available and I don't mean Farrell.

Oh well. It's not going to happen so there is that.

I am looking forward to his first squad, I rather suspect not that many changes from Jones but we live in hope and as they say, it's the hope that kills...

Compared his potential impact to that of Nonu.

Simmonds would be the better 12 out of the 2...

Geordie wrote:Main changes will be enforced through injury i would think..

Any others would be the right calls...like an actual 12..Kelly and maybe Borthwick might like a look at George martin at this level.

I think George Martin will be a balance thing. He's not an outstanding candidate (yet) but he is the sort of blindside that'll make big tackle after big tackle for 80 mins and then in attack carry hard tight in. Would potentially free up the openside and number 8 to be a bit more dynamic.

The take of Jasper Weise on Borthwick;

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/new-england-coach-borthwick-likened-to-a-computer-by-bok-bruiser/

And thats what we are missing IMO Sam. Some real brute physicality. Its why im so keen on Ted Hill, but would be happy for George Martin to step up and make that 6 spot his.

I just feel at times this pack has a bit of a soft underbelly...we need a few tough nuts. Sorry if i sound like a dinosaur there...

Martin had a couple of caps under Jones but I don't think he set world alight. Has he improved a lot since?

Geordie wrote:I just feel at times this pack has a bit of a soft underbelly...we need a few tough nuts. Sorry if i sound like a dinosaur there...

Nope, you old codger, not a dinosaur.  I absolutely agree about the soft underbelly.  Need beasties, not the Powder Puff Girls. I understood what EJ was trying to do with Jonny Hill - right idea, wrong guy.  For me, the ideal alternative would be an in-form Launchbury.  After that, perhaps Ribbans, he has a motor, does the grunt work, and has attacking skills.  Just ask the ABs.

mountain man wrote:Martin had a couple of caps under Jones but I don't think he set world alight. Has he improved a lot since?

Hes still very young...hes developing so maybe wasnt quite ready when Eddie was having a look at him. Hes had more experience and a Prem title under his belt now.
Lawes will be the 6 for the 6n no doubt for the moment however.