England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/12/17/steve-borthwick-tells-leicester-players-joining-england/

Telegraph reporting that Borthwick and Sinfield informed the Tigers squad they will be joining England after the Clermont victory. The RFU are expected to announce it on Monday.

Securing Sinfield's early release as well as Borthwick was presumably the delay then.

Head coach - Borthwick
Defence coach - Sinfield
Forwards (scrum and contact area) - Cockers or Proudfoot - I doubt both with Borthwick presumably taking over the lineout
Attack - Gleeson - Until the summer at least I would assume

It's the makings of a coaching team with all bases covered for the Six Nations.

majesticimperialman wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Can any one confirm Steve Borthwick will be England Head coach ?
I have just seen on Rugby Pass that Andy Robinson ad Quit of Head Coach  of Romania,

Is he in line for the England head coach job? surely not?

Jesus.

Yes my child.

Why have you come back as brain dead this time?

king_carlos wrote:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/12/17/steve-borthwick-tells-leicester-players-joining-england/

Telegraph reporting that Borthwick and Sinfield informed the Tigers squad they will be joining England after the Clermont victory. The RFU are expected to announce it on Monday.

Securing Sinfield's early release as well as Borthwick was presumably the delay then.

Head coach - Borthwick
Defence coach - Sinfield
Forwards (scrum and contact area) - Cockers or Proudfoot - I doubt both with Borthwick presumably taking over the lineout
Attack - Gleeson - Until the summer at least I would assume

It's the makings of a coaching team with all bases covered for the Six Nations.

Cool. Cos of all the things clicking it was the attack.

The Wasps attack under Gleeson was good.

As has been discussed to death England tried to move to a completely new attacking structure that didn't pan out. Key outside backs not being available a part of that. With a more traditional 1-3-3-1 or 1-3-2-2 type structure I'd be interested to see what Gleeson can do.

Getting an attack coach such as Vesty released midseason on top of Borthwick and Sinfield is very unlikely.

Coaches are one key part. The other one is picking right players to be coached. Sorry to witter on(again) but if it's nigh on same squad I don't see them winning 6N/RWC.

Anyway, good news that coaching team be announced soon.

king_carlos wrote:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/12/17/steve-borthwick-tells-leicester-players-joining-england/

Telegraph reporting that Borthwick and Sinfield informed the Tigers squad they will be joining England after the Clermont victory. The RFU are expected to announce it on Monday.

Securing Sinfield's early release as well as Borthwick was presumably the delay then.

Head coach - Borthwick
Defence coach - Sinfield
Forwards (scrum and contact area) - Cockers or Proudfoot - I doubt both with Borthwick presumably taking over the lineout
Attack - Gleeson - Until the summer at least I would assume

It's the makings of a coaching team with all bases covered for the Six Nations.

The Telegraph have come up with a different rumour every other day so far. I think them making out they've got some sort of insider information has long passed believability.

king_carlos wrote:The Wasps attack under Gleeson was good.

As has been discussed to death England tried to move to a completely new attacking structure that didn't pan out. Key outside backs not being available a part of that. With a more traditional 1-3-3-1 or 1-3-2-2 type structure I'd be interested to see what Gleeson can do.

Getting an attack coach such as Vesty released midseason on top of Borthwick and Sinfield is very unlikely.

It's a fair point but I think all the coaches are partly responsible, with Gleeson more, in not saying this ain't working.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

king_carlos wrote:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/12/17/steve-borthwick-tells-leicester-players-joining-england/

Telegraph reporting that Borthwick and Sinfield informed the Tigers squad they will be joining England after the Clermont victory. The RFU are expected to announce it on Monday.

Securing Sinfield's early release as well as Borthwick was presumably the delay then.

Head coach - Borthwick
Defence coach - Sinfield
Forwards (scrum and contact area) - Cockers or Proudfoot - I doubt both with Borthwick presumably taking over the lineout
Attack - Gleeson - Until the summer at least I would assume

It's the makings of a coaching team with all bases covered for the Six Nations.

The Telegraph have come up with a different rumour every other day so far. I think them making out they've got some sort of insider information has long passed believability.

Their progression of rumours makes some sense though. First England buying out Borthwick. Then needing to get SB and KS but the big compensation deal making it stall. Then SB going but getting the incumbent coaches. Now SB and KS both going.

My guess is the RFU wanted SB. SB then wanted KS in order to accept. The RFU approached Tigers but couldn't agree a price. RFU return to SB saying he'd have to take the current coaching team. SB says no (see Smurf and McGinity going when he joined Tigers) he'll only do it with his chosen team. RFU returns to Tigers and they meet in the middle as realistically keeping KS is counterintuitive if he wants the England opportunity alongside SB.

They have reported various rumours but the progression of them does make sense to me with how I'd expect this to play out. Also to steal a line from The Thick of It the RFU is about as secure as a hymen in an East London comprehensive so having insider info there is hardly an achievement!

king_carlos wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

king_carlos wrote:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/12/17/steve-borthwick-tells-leicester-players-joining-england/

Telegraph reporting that Borthwick and Sinfield informed the Tigers squad they will be joining England after the Clermont victory. The RFU are expected to announce it on Monday.

Securing Sinfield's early release as well as Borthwick was presumably the delay then.

Head coach - Borthwick
Defence coach - Sinfield
Forwards (scrum and contact area) - Cockers or Proudfoot - I doubt both with Borthwick presumably taking over the lineout
Attack - Gleeson - Until the summer at least I would assume

It's the makings of a coaching team with all bases covered for the Six Nations.

The Telegraph have come up with a different rumour every other day so far. I think them making out they've got some sort of insider information has long passed believability.

Their progression of rumours makes some sense though. First England buying out Borthwick. Then needing to get SB and KS but the big compensation deal making it stall. Then SB going but getting the incumbent coaches. Now SB and KS both going.

My guess is the RFU wanted SB. SB then wanted KS in order to accept. The RFU approached Tigers but couldn't agree a price. RFU return to SB saying he'd have to take the current coaching team. SB says no (see Smurf and McGinity going when he joined Tigers) he'll only do it with his chosen team. RFU returns to Tigers and they meet in the middle as realistically keeping KS is counterintuitive if he wants the England opportunity alongside SB.

They have reported various rumours but the progression of them does make sense to me with how I'd expect this to play out. Also to steal a line from The Thick of It the RFU is about as secure as a hymen in an East London comprehensive so having insider info there is hardly an achievement!

You are probably right. Especially your last line which is too funny.

doctor_grey wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

king_carlos wrote:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/12/17/steve-borthwick-tells-leicester-players-joining-england/

Telegraph reporting that Borthwick and Sinfield informed the Tigers squad they will be joining England after the Clermont victory. The RFU are expected to announce it on Monday.

Securing Sinfield's early release as well as Borthwick was presumably the delay then.

Head coach - Borthwick
Defence coach - Sinfield
Forwards (scrum and contact area) - Cockers or Proudfoot - I doubt both with Borthwick presumably taking over the lineout
Attack - Gleeson - Until the summer at least I would assume

It's the makings of a coaching team with all bases covered for the Six Nations.

The Telegraph have come up with a different rumour every other day so far. I think them making out they've got some sort of insider information has long passed believability.

Their progression of rumours makes some sense though. First England buying out Borthwick. Then needing to get SB and KS but the big compensation deal making it stall. Then SB going but getting the incumbent coaches. Now SB and KS both going.

My guess is the RFU wanted SB. SB then wanted KS in order to accept. The RFU approached Tigers but couldn't agree a price. RFU return to SB saying he'd have to take the current coaching team. SB says no (see Smurf and McGinity going when he joined Tigers) he'll only do it with his chosen team. RFU returns to Tigers and they meet in the middle as realistically keeping KS is counterintuitive if he wants the England opportunity alongside SB.

They have reported various rumours but the progression of them does make sense to me with how I'd expect this to play out. Also to steal a line from The Thick of It the RFU is about as secure as a hymen in an East London comprehensive so having insider info there is hardly an achievement!

You are probably right.  Especially your last line which is too funny.  

Excuse me!!! I grew up with a lot of young "ladies" from the East End and went to a comprehensive; I can assure you their hymens were just as safe as the girls from the posh Catholic school  up the road that liked  to come across to our school for "a bit of rough".

So Borthwick it is then.
Lets hope he gets off to a good start in the 6nations by not loosing to Scotland for a start.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

king_carlos wrote:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/12/17/steve-borthwick-tells-leicester-players-joining-england/

Telegraph reporting that Borthwick and Sinfield informed the Tigers squad they will be joining England after the Clermont victory. The RFU are expected to announce it on Monday.

Securing Sinfield's early release as well as Borthwick was presumably the delay then.

Head coach - Borthwick
Defence coach - Sinfield
Forwards (scrum and contact area) - Cockers or Proudfoot - I doubt both with Borthwick presumably taking over the lineout
Attack - Gleeson - Until the summer at least I would assume

It's the makings of a coaching team with all bases covered for the Six Nations.

The Telegraph have come up with a different rumour every other day so far. I think them making out they've got some sort of insider information has long passed believability.

Their progression of rumours makes some sense though. First England buying out Borthwick. Then needing to get SB and KS but the big compensation deal making it stall. Then SB going but getting the incumbent coaches. Now SB and KS both going.

My guess is the RFU wanted SB. SB then wanted KS in order to accept. The RFU approached Tigers but couldn't agree a price. RFU return to SB saying he'd have to take the current coaching team. SB says no (see Smurf and McGinity going when he joined Tigers) he'll only do it with his chosen team. RFU returns to Tigers and they meet in the middle as realistically keeping KS is counterintuitive if he wants the England opportunity alongside SB.

They have reported various rumours but the progression of them does make sense to me with how I'd expect this to play out. Also to steal a line from The Thick of It the RFU is about as secure as a hymen in an East London comprehensive so having insider info there is hardly an achievement!

You are probably right.  Especially your last line which is too funny.  

Excuse me!!! I grew up with a lot of young "ladies" from the East End and went to a comprehensive; I can assure you their hymens were just as safe as the girls from the posh Catholic school  up the road that liked  to come across to our school for "a bit of rough".

You must have been a very diligent investigator or the hymen status in your school. I respect that.

Bringing the level of discussion up from hymens what will borthwick bring differently to England? I'm going to predict we will look more structured with an improved set piece but far from the total rugby side that will get bums off seats. His first squad will be very telling. I get the impression he puts mental attributes of players higher on his wish list than natural talent.

Obviously he needs time but I for one am not going to get carried away.

Rugby Fan wrote:It sounds like the RFU didn't look for player input to make the decision on Jones. There's no reason they had to, of course, and their record on doing so after the 2011 World Cup probably wouldn't have encouraged players to believe their opinions would stay confidential.

Asked if was invited to contribute, Lawes said: “No, I wasn’t. I don’t think any players were.

“I heard the news last Tuesday and just gave [Eddie] a text thanking him for his service and what he had done for my career. That’s all I could really do. I was quite surprised because it’s so close to the World Cup. Eddie has got a pretty good track record at World Cups. The last couple of years haven’t really gone our way but the World Cups are different for us because we get to spend so long together, we get to be a proper team for three or four months.

“I know I’m one of the lucky ones, he didn’t give me much stick or anything like that and he was ultimately really good for my career. I know that’s not the case for everyone so people may have different opinions but for me, personally, I was sad to see him go.

“It’s hard to see. Because you’re removed from the last camp and you don’t know what has happened, what has gone on or how the players were really feeling, the staff, there’s not much you can say about it. From the Australia tour we were going in the right direction, I thought we had made a lot of strides towards the World Cup and to not be able to make progress on that this autumn for whatever reason.”

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/dec/16/lawes-not-consulted-over-decision-to-sack-england-head-coach-jones

I take it with a pinch of salt, as Lawes says himself he benefitted greatly from Jones and never suffered. Seems like there's a few who are like that and just as many who were burnt. Also, Lawes has pretty poor judgement.

Looking back at the post 2011 inquest, i'm personally glad it wasn't repeated! It was a farce and just dragged the team through the mud.

Yoda wrote:Bringing the level of discussion up from hymens what will borthwick bring differently to England? I'm going to predict we will look more structured with an improved set piece but far from the total rugby side that will get bums off seats. His first squad will be very telling. I get the impression he puts mental attributes of players higher on his wish list than natural talent.

Obviously he needs time but I for one am not going to get carried away.

Work rate will be a requirement, if you're not going to bury yourself for the team and bring the intensity in training I doubt you'll earn a cap. For those that want to work hard Borthwick is the type that'll come in early and stay late to try and improve them.

Discipline, Tigers discipline has improved out of sight since Borthwick joined. He's even managed to get Jasper Weise to stop getting carded. There was a game the other week where it took Tigers nearly 50 minutes to concede the first penalty. That's something England's forwards could really do with being able to replicate.

Variable tactics. Borthwick isn't opposed to lots of running rugby but it won't be a go to option. Tigers Vs Glaws last year at Kingsholm is a great example. Tigers had a strong kicking game and chase, Glaws looked to negate that by flooding the backfield. Including their wingers. Tigers actually ran the ball from deep, mainly using Nadolo and caught Glaws out completely as there was so limited cover in the wide spaces. Expect pragmatism though.

Thinking back to when Eddie started, we had an incredibly abrasive defence and a great kicking game and won a lot, we then built on that. I imagine Borthwick will go down the same route. Honestly not fussed if we win and beat scotland.

Errr, I'd quite like to beat Scotland at home! No excuse of an empty stadium for us this time. I don't expect everything to suddenly click this tournament but we should be winning the home games.

Well if Borthwick is going to be focused on discipline then Hill be first dropped with a bit of luck. Mind you Itoje and Curry not adverse to giving away a few but usually not the brain dead ones.

I come back to the need for some positivity. It seems unlikely that we'll get much of that through the gameplan; we're going to see more kicking as a first option. If that does transpire than the optimism needs to come from selection and a win first up. Reminds me of Lancaster who didn't exactly provide magical running rugby at Murrayfield first up. Charge down Charlie, a few debuts from the likes of Farrell, Barritt, Morgan, Parling.

The worst possible thing for me he can do is stick with the same old, particularly Youngs and (though I'm a huge fan) Farrell at 12. It'll lead to grumbles in the stands and will only get worse if we struggle.

mountain man wrote:Well if Borthwick is going to be focused on discipline then Hill be first dropped with a bit of luck. Mind you Itoje and Curry not adverse to giving away a few but usually not the brain dead ones.

Tomas Lavanini didn't last long at Tigers after Borthwick joined. Hill has one advantage of Big Tom in that he's at least useful at the lineout. Unsurprisingly Borthwick does like locks who are good at the set piece.

Borthwick also spent a good period of time improving Weise and Genge's discipline. I think it's something like a year in January since Weise last picked up a card for Tigers (my memory could be faulty). So he could just opt to work with Hill and try to improve the big lump. England aren't particularly blessed with big second rows but then again neither are Tigers, Wells probably being the most weighty.

Announcement at noon to find out how badly the RFU have screwed Tigers.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The worst possible thing for me he can do is stick with the same old, particularly Youngs and (though I'm a huge fan) Farrell at 12. It'll lead to grumbles in the stands and will only get worse if we struggle.

Youngs is still first choice at Tigers and with back to back poor showings from Mitchell in "Europe" it's not like he's knocking down the door whilst Quirke is still injured. Unless something changes drastically between now and the 6N there's no way any coach wouldn't pick Youngs.

With the injuries to Ford and Smith it looks likely Farrell will be at 10. Smith I can see being used from the bench as 10/15 cover it he recovers in time. I don't know if it'll be the same with England but Borthwick has tended to bring on a second flyhalf at fullback when looking for more points in games. Smith is quick enough to pull that off and wouldn't have the burden of running the game.

I think there are a few coaches who would prioritise basics for an international scrum half. But it's not like we'll need a SH to pass much by the sounds of it!

Not sure Smith (Marcus) will be fit for Scotland, and if he's then played at full back...well you may well have Borthwick back pretty soon!

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think there are a few coaches who would prioritise basics for an international scrum half. But it's not like we'll need a SH to pass much by the sounds of it!

Not sure Smith (Marcus) will be fit for Scotland, and if he's then played at full back...well you may well have Borthwick back pretty soon!

Only as an option off the bench for Marcus.

If he's fit I'd have thought Borthwick will go with Ford.

It would be just taking all the negatives of Jones and repeating. There are far better options for bench cover than our best fly half. He may surprise us all, hopefully.

At least SB might just focus on each tournament as they come...rather than solely focusing on the WC....

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The worst possible thing for me he can do is stick with the same old, particularly Youngs and (though I'm a huge fan) Farrell at 12. It'll lead to grumbles in the stands and will only get worse if we struggle.

Youngs is still first choice at Tigers and with back to back poor showings from Mitchell in "Europe" it's not like he's knocking down the door whilst Quirke is still injured. Unless something changes drastically between now and the 6N there's no way any coach wouldn't pick Youngs.

With the injuries to Ford and Smith it looks likely Farrell will be at 10. Smith I can see being used from the bench as 10/15 cover it he recovers in time. I don't know if it'll be the same with England but Borthwick has tended to bring on a second flyhalf at fullback when looking for more points in games. Smith is quick enough to pull that off and wouldn't have the burden of running the game.

Smith, as far as I can recall, has never played 15 at any level; he played 9 and 10 at school and became Quins' de facto first choice 10 pretty much immediately because of the horrible injury to Catrakilis. Never played anywhere else and would be a target under the high ball because of his lack of height. If anything, Farrell or Slade would be better suited to dropping back. I know you don't rate him, Sam, but you're not going to get a better performance out of him by playing him out of position and not asking him to run the game. I don't think that's the issue anyway: he is already running the game and has been spending a lot of his time in attack directing the other players - watch how often he's running behind the line pointing out where he needs people. I think the challenge is more likely to be that Eddie had introduced too many positional complexities for the other players to think clearly about; coupled with a pack that wasn't working, England were rarely getting the space they needed to make it work. I hope Borthwick can get the pack more focused and simplify the patterns a little until the players are more used to them.

As for alternatives to Youngs, the obvious one is Care. He didn't fit what Eddie wanted of his scrum half, but if you want to take pressure off Smith then having someone inside him who knows when to give him the ball versus when not to is a much better bet than playing him somewhere that he's completely unsuited to play.

9 JVP
10 Farrell
12 Kelly
13 Lawrence / Joseph

Would be canny...

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

The worst possible thing for me he can do is stick with the same old, particularly Youngs and (though I'm a huge fan) Farrell at 12. It'll lead to grumbles in the stands and will only get worse if we struggle.

Youngs is still first choice at Tigers and with back to back poor showings from Mitchell in "Europe" it's not like he's knocking down the door whilst Quirke is still injured. Unless something changes drastically between now and the 6N there's no way any coach wouldn't pick Youngs.

With the injuries to Ford and Smith it looks likely Farrell will be at 10. Smith I can see being used from the bench as 10/15 cover it he recovers in time. I don't know if it'll be the same with England but Borthwick has tended to bring on a second flyhalf at fullback when looking for more points in games. Smith is quick enough to pull that off and wouldn't have the burden of running the game.

Smith, as far as I can recall, has never played 15 at any level; he played 9 and 10 at school and became Quins' de facto first choice 10 pretty much immediately because of the horrible injury to Catrakilis. Never played anywhere else and would be a target under the high ball because of his lack of height. If anything, Farrell or Slade would be better suited to dropping back. I know you don't rate him, Sam, but you're not going to get a better performance out of him by playing him out of position and not asking him to run the game. I don't think that's the issue anyway: he is already running the game and has been spending a lot of his time in attack directing the other players - watch how often he's running behind the line pointing out where he needs people. I think the challenge is more likely to be that Eddie had introduced too many positional complexities for the other players to think clearly about; coupled with a pack that wasn't working, England were rarely getting the space they needed to make it work. I hope Borthwick can get the pack more focused and simplify the patterns a little until the players are more used to them.

As for alternatives to Youngs, the obvious one is Care. He didn't fit what Eddie wanted of his scrum half, but if you want to take pressure off Smith then having someone inside him who knows when to give him the ball versus when not to is a much better bet than playing him somewhere that he's completely unsuited to play.

Smith moved to fullback Vs France towards the end of the game in the 6N. His best spell in that game, should have done it earlier. It would be the roll of the dice style option, give Smith sits in the backfield alongside the fullback in defence sometimes it's not a reach. Borthwick tends to move Steward to the wing for that particular gamble at club level so there's someone to drop with the fullback (normally Burns) of required.

Care was woeful Vs the Baabaas and in the summer internationals Vs Australia. Borthwick likes a scrum half with a strong kicking game as evidenced by the four scrum halfs currently on the books at Tigers and the fact Ben White got no game time and then left for LI (and Scotland caps). Care would be a dramatic step backwards for me, the only benefit being that you'd have to push the younger guys into starting for fear of playing Care.

Geordie wrote:9 JVP
10 Farrell
12 Kelly
13 Lawrence / Joseph

Would be canny...

Can't see Joseph getting a recall but Marchant or Manu would certainly be in there.

There's a new Joseph now Sam.

Is Youngs really that good even with his kicking these days. The England kick chase has been pretty bad since the WC. Granted a weakened set of wingers, none of which really got a good run in the side but his kicking wasn't really accurate. I suppose we've pretty much lost Underhill chase too though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's a new Joseph now Sam.

Is Youngs really that good even with his kicking these days. The England kick chase has been pretty bad since the WC. Granted a weakened set of wingers, none of which really got a good run in the side but his kicking wasn't really accurate. I suppose we've pretty much lost Underhill chase too though.

It certainly works for Tigers. I'd expect the kick chase to be a serious work on for Borthwick. He seems to put a lot into player hunger so lazy kick chase doesn't sit well with him. The kicking is good at Tigers even Dan Cole was able to get up and take a couple of high balls at the weekend. Mind you Dan Cole was a man on a mission. Made the younger props look sluggish on the Colar Bear's 300th game for Tigers.

Borthwick and Sinfield confirmed.

Wigglesworth to lead Tigers as interim head coach.

I really like the appointment of Sinfield. That should temper any yearning for Edwards.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:9 JVP
10 Farrell
12 Kelly
13 Lawrence / Joseph

Would be canny...

Can't see Joseph getting a recall but Marchant or Manu would certainly be in there.

Will Joseph, Sam...the younger brother...scored 2 for Irish at the weekend.

Please lets forget about Manu and build for the future.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Borthwick and Sinfield confirmed.

Wigglesworth to lead Tigers as interim head coach.

Relatively happy with this, certainly better than Robertson links anyway (I doubt he was ever seriously considered tbh). Makes the 6N a bit more exciting at least...

Certainly seems like Robertson and O'Gara were the back up choices.

Geordie wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:9 JVP
10 Farrell
12 Kelly
13 Lawrence / Joseph

Would be canny...

Can't see Joseph getting a recall but Marchant or Manu would certainly be in there.

Will Joseph, Sam...the younger brother...scored 2 for Irish at the weekend.

Please lets forget about Manu and build for the future.

I still wouldn't have the younger Joseph on either. He's rapid and clearly got bags of potential but is a bit raw for this world cup. With the world cup coming up so fast I don't think we can forget about Manu. I think Manu will be effectively retired after the world cup but until then has to be considered an option if fit (Borthwick will be demanding a higher work rate from him).

I think it'll be Slade at 13 despite what i said above.

I can see the following for the 6n...

9 JVP
10 Farrell
12 Kelly
13 Slade

No 7&1/2 wrote:Certainly seems like Robertson and O'Gara were the back up choices.

I've seen nothing to suggest Robertson was ever in consideration.

They would have been stupid not to consider him.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-11448189/England-hold-talks-Scott-Robinson-succeeding-Eddie-Jones-2023-World-Cup.html

No 7&1/2 wrote:They would have been stupid not to consider him.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-11448189/England-hold-talks-Scott-Robinson-succeeding-Eddie-Jones-2023-World-Cup.html

He wants the NZ job and Foster won't last. I suspect he'll be overlooked for Schmidt but one more year at the Crusaders plus then the ability to pick and choose between various international jobs if he is indeed overlooked by the NZRU is a good place for him to be.

He'd likely have taken the England job if offered though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He'd likely have taken the England job if offered though.

Why would he? It's not his dream job (but it would rule him out of getting his dream job), trying to get out of his NZ contract would have been complicated and the England team play nothing like the rugby he prefers with him knowing none of the players which is awkward with the 6N imminent and a world cup round the corner.

It is Borthwick's dream job, Tigers had already promised not to stand in his way (just compensation to work out), the England side were previously coached by his mentor and he had been an assistant. He knows the strengths and weaknesses, he knows most of the players.

Geordie wrote:I think it'll be Slade at 13 despite what i said above.

I can see the following for the 6n...

9 JVP
10 Farrell
12 Kelly
13 Slade

This is what I'd predict as well. Presumably they'll use the same aggressive blitz that Tigers use given Sinfield is joining as well. 13 is the toughest position to defend by a distance in those systems. I'd say Slade is our best defender in that channel.

I don't actually see a massive change in personnel. I'd predict:

- Earl, Watson and Cole (Marler if available too) will have very good shots at recalls
- Kelly must have a good chance at 12
- Maybe a more powerful winger such as OHC in the squad to push May
- Tizard and Chessum potentially the other second rows in the 23 with Maro

I'd expect Farrell to be at 10. Borthwick likes big back rows as well so Lawes will most likely continue at 6.

1.Genge 2.George 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Chessum 6.Lawes 7.Curry 8.Vunipola/Dombrandt
9.JvP 10.Farrell 11.May/OHC 12.Kelly 13.Slade 14.Watson 15.Steward

16.LCD 17.Marler 18.Sinckler 19.Tizard 20.Earl 21.Quirke 22.Smith 23.Tuilagi/Lawrence

Potentially something like that? Massive focus on set-piece, defence and territory in the starting XV then impact off the bench.

Tigers game plan has a huge focus on fitness so that they frequently keep things very tight for 60-70 minutes to grind the opposition down then look to strike once they tire. Dynamic players off the bench is certainly a key part of that.

i wonder if Dan Cole would actually want to return to International Action though.
its a huge toll on their bodies and family life...hes living nicely and looking great...he might not want to disturb that.

Could George Martin or Ted Hill be in the frame to challenge Lawes at 6? He knows Martin very well and is a probably a potentially more physical unit than Lawes as is Ted.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He'd likely have taken the England job if offered though.

Why would he? It's not his dream job (but it would rule him out of getting his dream job), trying to get out of his NZ contract would have been complicated and the England team play nothing like the rugby he prefers with him knowing none of the players which is awkward with the 6N imminent and a world cup round the corner.

It is Borthwick's dream job, Tigers had already promised not to stand in his way (just compensation to work out), the England side were previously coached by his mentor and he had been an assistant. He knows the strengths and weaknesses, he knows most of the players.

Just going by what he's said. Despite being in the doldrums for a few years the England Job is one of the biggest around. A good coach would back themselves to bring silverware. And yes the England team haven't played good rugby for a while but they clearly have the players to do so.

And yes that's the plus points of Borthwick, the negatives are he's a bit continuity Jones.

Yes but if he can get the early days of Jones back and improve on them...then im more than happy with Borthwick

Geordie wrote:Yes but if he can get the early days of Jones back and improve on them...then im more than happy with Borthwick

Yeah. Just guess it's a bit depressing to hear everyone think he'll just copy the Leicester blue print.

Geordie wrote:i wonder if Dan Cole would actually want to return to International Action though.
its a huge toll on their bodies and family life...hes living nicely and looking great...he might not want to disturb that.

Could George Martin or Ted Hill be in the frame to challenge Lawes at 6? He knows Martin very well and is a probably a potentially more physical unit than Lawes as is Ted.

I definitely think Cole would. You don't put in the fitness work Cole has since Aled Walters came in at Tigers, especially at that stage of your career, unless you're still as competitive as ever. When Cole was dropped in 2020 I was actually a Tigers fan that thought it was a fair call. I felt he'd slowed down a bit after the injuries and so many miles on the clock. Since Walters came in the change in his conditioning has been remarkable. He's just kept getting better with it. Scrummaging as well as ever, brilliant defensive work rate and more prominent in the carry even. It's the best I've seen him play since the neck surgery. I think we could so much worse than Cole in the Mtwarira role starting with Sinckler in the Kitshoff role from the bench.

I think Martin and Hill could both be in the frame to be in the squad backing up Lawes. Borthwick's direct game plan needs players that win collisions especially in defence and both those guys do that. Tigers blindsides under Borthwick have been Liebenberg and Martin so I doubt we will see a departure from large blindsides anyway.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Yes but if he can get the early days of Jones back and improve on them...then im more than happy with Borthwick

Yeah. Just guess it's a bit depressing to hear everyone think he'll just copy the Leicester blue print.

Solid basics, aggressive defence and pragmatic attack. It's what you see from good international teams. The international teams who like to throw the ball around don't do quite as well.

The Tigers tactics also fluctuated dependent on the game. Some games they ran it more than others.