England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

I would just like to say Merry Xmas to everyone.

As would I. Have a great time everyone

Merry Christmas all.

Big Steve got his birthday present early with two young EQ 12s bang in form for Leicester and Gloucester last night.

Gents,
Absolutely agree - from over here on the left side of the Atlantic - all the best today and throughout the holiday season.  After the last couple of years we certainly deserve a great holiday.

- and may your balls always be funny shaped.....

All the best everyone. Hope you've all had a great one.

And on another note.....Will Borthwick be having a look at Irish 7 Pearson?
He's a real dynamic young player....add Earl in...and by heck England really fi have some Explosive backrowers.

I hope Borthwick looks at Pearson - he is 6' 3" and nearly 18 st, so a bit more beef than Curry, Earl or Underhill offer. He would make a good 6 option - mobility around the pitch and good ball skills, as well as some power in the tackle. There isn't much time to the World Cup, but I think we need to look at some in form players.

What's Pearson's skills like at the lineout? I don't think Borthwick will name a team without lineout options in the backrow. If we are using Tigers as a rough template then there was always a third jumper at 6, sometimes a fourth and fifth jumper as well.

Pearson is mobile and combative though which are traits that Borthwick does like. He played exceptionally well Vs Sarries with Steve watching on. Good time to show his form.

LI tend to use Gonzales more as a third jumper, with Pearson the quick distributing option from the back of the maul as he's got a decent pass on him.

Pearson did actually spend most of his BUCs rugby playing at lock though, so is an option as a third jumper. Just not one as good as the likes of Lawes, Coles, Itoje would be there at 6.

I see Macpharland is out for Sarries with an ACL. I wonder if Itoje or Isiekwe will move to 6...

If they do I hope it doesn't mean that Borthwick would consider it for England. Both too slow and more locks. Has Hanro Liebenberg been thrown into the mix yet? Must be nearly qualified.

One player that seems to have been left out of every bodies reckoning, although he has 10 caps and has never let England down is Lewis Ludlam. Perfect squad player and bencher as he can play across the whole of the backrow, is proficient in the lineout and for someone of his size, somehow always seems to make ground ball in hand especially in the tight areas.

Geordie wrote:I see Macpharland is out for Sarries with an ACL. I wonder if Itoje or Isiekwe will move to 6...

Isiekwe has likely played more at 6 than second row for Sarries in the big games. There first choice was very much 4.Itoje 5.Kruis 6.Isiekwe at one point. The Skelton too of course. Isiekwe has played plenty of lock too of course but plays both to a very high standard.

McFarland is a huge loss. Such a great bit of recruitment and coaching by Sarries to have plucked him from where he was and brought him on like they have. He's been one of the most influential forwards in the Prem this season.

No 7&1/2 wrote:If they do I hope it doesn't mean that Borthwick would consider it for England. Both too slow and more locks.  Has Hanro Liebenberg been thrown into the mix yet? Must be nearly qualified.

Liebenberg is tied to SA. He played for (skippered in fact) their U20s when they were SAs designated second XV in games against Italy and France when they were also designated second XVs at the 2016 JWC. Qualifying for a second nation is through ancestry or birth not residency so Hanro is tied to the Boks unless a grandparent is discovered.

He's a terrific player just unfortunate to be in the same era as PSdT. Jacques du Plessis was in that bracket too. He was fantastic for Montpellier for a long time but couldn't get a look in. Now he's returned to the Bulls injuries have caught up with him a bit.

We should have enough options at 6 though before looking at residency qualified

Geordie wrote:We should have enough options at 6 though before looking at residency qualified    

We should, somewhat unfortunate that Martin is injured currently. Great chance for Ted Hill to put his hand up though.

Well-Past-It not been that impressed with Ludlum recently. The lack of form plus he's up against Curry, Pearson, Underhill and Jack Willis at openside which means he's fourth or fifth choice. Can't see him slotting into 6 with Borthwick's preferences. As an 8 he might fare better as Borthwick has tended to prefer a high work rate and physical 8. If you look at what he's developed Weise into that's the ideal for his mobile and physical pack prototype.

Geordie wrote:We should have enough options at 6 though before looking at residency qualified    

You just pick anyone who you feel are part of the best team as long as they're qualified.

Still hoping that Borthwick has made do and mend as much as anything with his selections. He has a far more varied and better selection of players to now choose from.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:We should have enough options at 6 though before looking at residency qualified    

You just pick anyone who you feel are part of the best team as long as they're qualified.

And that's where we disagree. I get that it's the rules but I'd rather pick English where possible rather than a team full of residency qualified United nations.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:We should have enough options at 6 though before looking at residency qualified    

We should, somewhat unfortunate that Martin is injured currently. Great chance for Ted Hill to put his hand up though.

Well-Past-It not been that impressed with Ludlum recently. The lack of form plus he's up against Curry, Pearson, Underhill and Jack Willis at openside which means he's fourth or fifth choice. Can't see him slotting into 6 with Borthwick's preferences. As an 8 he might fare better as Borthwick has tended to prefer a high work rate and physical 8. If you look at what he's developed Weise into that's the ideal for his mobile and physical pack prototype.

Agree about Ted Hill Sam.

I also think Jack Willis is a great candidate for the 6 spot. He's not just an out and out 7.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:We should have enough options at 6 though before looking at residency qualified    

You just pick anyone who you feel are part of the best team as long as they're qualified.

And that's where we disagree. I get that it's the rules but I'd rather pick English where possible rather than a team full of residency qualified United nations.

You'd have Waldron over Billy vunipola.
And no manager is going to ignore options because they weren't born here.

Geordie wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:We should have enough options at 6 though before looking at residency qualified    

We should, somewhat unfortunate that Martin is injured currently. Great chance for Ted Hill to put his hand up though.

Well-Past-It not been that impressed with Ludlum recently. The lack of form plus he's up against Curry, Pearson, Underhill and Jack Willis at openside which means he's fourth or fifth choice. Can't see him slotting into 6 with Borthwick's preferences. As an 8 he might fare better as Borthwick has tended to prefer a high work rate and physical 8. If you look at what he's developed Weise into that's the ideal for his mobile and physical pack prototype.

Agree about Ted Hill Sam.

I also think Jack Willis is a great candidate for the 6 spot. He's not just an out and out 7.

Depends on what system though. If you're comparing him to the type of 6s Borthwick has tended to prefer then no not really. Liebenburg, Martin, Wells and Chessum have been utilised there. Unless he's moved to 8 but I'm not sure he's got the carrying game for that. I'm expecting Borthwick to want set piece functionality early in his reign so at least three quality jumpers and a solid front row. Kick chase to be a thing and Sinfield likes an aggressive defence so work rate and mobility to be key elements.

I am intrigued to see who Borthwick picks as his captain - will he go for Genge?

Mr Bounce wrote:I am intrigued to see who Borthwick picks as his captain - will he go for Genge?

Lawes or Farrell if they are picked. Rare for a prop to be an international captain these days, they get subbed off after 50 minutes, then who takes over. Can Genge last the full 80 of international games? Also the vagaries of refereeing see them being carded more than most positions (frequently wrongly).

Who's captain way down list of priorities for me. I want to see squad he picks, then pick most suitable candidate from there. Pick best team first and foremost then go from there. Think that was one of many reasons Jones got his selections wrong(imo), he had Farrell as captain so would always pick him then picked team around that.

Eddie always had a leadership team and then selected the captain from there. I'd imagine Borthwick will do similar. At Tigers he named a vice club captain as well as a club captain. Genge was the club captain but when he came off or was on international duty then Liebenburg led the side.

England have plenty of potential leaders, picking a captain to drag them all together and set the on field tone will be important. Genge would be fine, I'm not sure Lawes or Farrell are particularly viable options as a new coach would surely want to be able to name someone who's going to be a long term captain with them. Genge is the prime age for that, Curry also.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Eddie always had a leadership team and then selected the captain from there. I'd imagine Borthwick will do similar. At Tigers he named a vice club captain as well as a club captain. Genge was the club captain but when he came off or was on international duty then Liebenburg led the side.

England have plenty of potential leaders, picking a captain to drag them all together and set the on field tone will be important. Genge would be fine, I'm not sure Lawes or Farrell are particularly viable options as a new coach would surely want to be able to name someone who's going to be a long term captain with them. Genge is the prime age for that, Curry also.

I agree with MM, you pick your captain from the best players you have in the squad, not build a side around a person. Lawes has done pretty well in his captaincy, he is respected by the players, seems to get on with refs, gets his point across without annoying them, is an 80m minute player and has arguably been England's most consistent player over the last few years. Every manager and Lions coach has picked him since Johnson was in charge, not many can say that.

He has one more RWC left in him. If he is not in the squad or the 23, you pick from who is there, picking someone for their potential longevity is the same a Jones has done with Farrell, picked him regardless because he is the captain.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Eddie always had a leadership team and then selected the captain from there. I'd imagine Borthwick will do similar. At Tigers he named a vice club captain as well as a club captain. Genge was the club captain but when he came off or was on international duty then Liebenburg led the side.

England have plenty of potential leaders, picking a captain to drag them all together and set the on field tone will be important. Genge would be fine, I'm not sure Lawes or Farrell are particularly viable options as a new coach would surely want to be able to name someone who's going to be a long term captain with them. Genge is the prime age for that, Curry also.

I agree with MM, you pick your captain from the best players you have in the squad, not build a side around a person. Lawes has done pretty well in his captaincy, he is respected by the players, seems to get on with refs, gets his point across without annoying them, is an 80m minute player and has arguably been England's most consistent player over the last few years. Every manager and Lions coach has picked him since Johnson was in charge, not many can say that.

He has one more RWC left in him. If he is not in the squad or the 23, you pick from who is there, picking someone for their potential longevity is the same a Jones has done with Farrell, picked him regardless because he is the captain.

I mean Ben Youngs.

It goes back to the leadership team thing, your figurehead might be someone with longevity but it doesn't mean the more experienced guys aren't in there putting their two penneth worth in as well. Captaincy isn't a totalitarian regime. Genge, Curry and Itoje are already part of the leadership group, Genge was the social captain and was the one who was there to ensure new entrants to the squad were integrated smoothly. If Genge was the captain then you'd need a vice captain anyway.

My main issue with Lawes is that he has some serious concussion issues. He's an all action type of player as well, if I was Borthwick I wouldn't want to appoint a captain I'd have to retire after the world cup nor would I want one that is a head knock away from another long spell out. Obviously fingers crossed Lawes doesn't get another head knock, never like to see that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:We should have enough options at 6 though before looking at residency qualified    

You just pick anyone who you feel are part of the best team as long as they're qualified.

And that's where we disagree. I get that it's the rules but I'd rather pick English where possible rather than a team full of residency qualified United nations.

You'd have Waldron over Billy vunipola.
And no manager is going to ignore options because they weren't born here.

Sorry that doesn't even make sense...what you on about?

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:We should have enough options at 6 though before looking at residency qualified    

You just pick anyone who you feel are part of the best team as long as they're qualified.

And that's where we disagree. I get that it's the rules but I'd rather pick English where possible rather than a team full of residency qualified United nations.

You'd have Waldron over Billy vunipola.
And no manager is going to ignore options because they weren't born here.

Sorry that doesn't even make sense...what you on about?

Vunipola is residency qualified. Waldrom (auto correct sorry) was not.

Marler up in front of citing today after insulting someone's mum. Low end is 6 matches or weeks and given his racist abuse to Lee you'd expect he's not getting it reduced, though citing doesn't seem to follow the rules half the time. Genge rodd and Baxter for the 6Ns?

Wouldn't have picked Waldrom nope.

And I didn't say I wouldnt pick a residency...ie A Prime Billy was simply too good not to pick.

I said I wouldn't pick residency for the sake of it when we have other option's as you would seem to do. Ie..pick Liebenberg when we have other English options with big future's.

Yeah I'd pick who I wanted to who qualified. For a while there I'd have much preferred Morgan over Vunipola sad for those run of injuries that opened the door. I don't see vunipola as less deserving though.
Sounds like Lidenberg doesn't qualify anyway from the update above.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Marler up in front of citing today after insulting someone's mum. Low end is 6 matches or weeks and given his racist abuse to Lee you'd expect he's not getting it reduced,  though citing doesn't seem to follow the rules half the time. Genge rodd and Baxter for the 6Ns?

I'm really under the impression now los9ng Marler won't actually be a problem. He's a good scrummager but I'm not sure he's doing much around the park these days..

I think there's players now who offer much more.

As you say young Baxter will over take him soon at Quins...a big prospect.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah I'd pick who I wanted to who qualified. For a while there I'd have much preferred Morgan over Vunipola sad for those run of injuries that opened the door. I don't see vunipola as less deserving though.
Sounds like Lidenberg doesn't qualify anyway from the update above.

Ben Morgan was a tremendous player...could have been very special for England if things had gone right. Billy was very special for a long time for England have never complained about his selection for the reasons I said above. Will use the law in certain cases but try to avoid it when possible.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah I'd pick who I wanted to who qualified. For a while there I'd have much preferred Morgan over Vunipola sad for those run of injuries that opened the door. I don't see vunipola as less deserving though.
Sounds like Lidenberg doesn't qualify anyway from the update above.

Ben Morgan was a tremendous player...could have been very special for England if things had gone right. Billy was very special for a long time for England have never complained about his selection for the reasons I said above. Will use the law in certain cases but try to avoid it when possible.  

I agree, for a short time, Ben Morgan reallly seemed like he was the goods.  In addition to doing the usual Number 8 work, he was deceptively quick and had great ball skills.  And so much of the time he did it with a smile on his face, so clearly showed how much he enjoyed playing.  An in-form Billy was a load to stop and was also quick.  No issue between the two of them.  Only thing is both are past their best (it's actually great to see Morgan still playing).  Which number 8s around the Premiership are the closest, especially on attack, to in-form Ben Morgan or Billy?

doctor_grey wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah I'd pick who I wanted to who qualified. For a while there I'd have much preferred Morgan over Vunipola sad for those run of injuries that opened the door. I don't see vunipola as less deserving though.
Sounds like Lidenberg doesn't qualify anyway from the update above.

Ben Morgan was a tremendous player...could have been very special for England if things had gone right. Billy was very special for a long time for England have never complained about his selection for the reasons I said above. Will use the law in certain cases but try to avoid it when possible.  

I agree, for a short time, Ben Morgan reallly seemed like he was the goods.  In addition to doing the usual Number 8 work, he was deceptively quick and had great ball skills.  And so much of the time he did it with a smile on his face, so clearly showed how much he enjoyed playing.  An in-form Billy was a load to stop and was also quick.  No issue between the two of them.  Only thing is both are past their best (it's actually great to see Morgan still playing).  Which number 8s around the Premiership are the closest, especially on attack, to in-form Ben Morgan or Billy?

I assume Doc your are alluding to "The One and Only" Juarno Augustus, but sadly he will not be available to England for a number of years yet unless an English grandma/pa officially adopts him.

Ben Earl cleared by the citing panel. Apparently now you can no arms tackle someone in the head. Brings Jim back into contention anyway.

Quirke is back for the European games in January and Ford a week later.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Quirke is back for the European games in January and Ford a week later.

Not a big fan of putting dates on recovery because it brings scrutiny when they aren't met. Ford was supposed to be targeting tonight as his comeback but hasn't made it.

Not overly bothered. Gives the fans an update and fills a few columns.

Watching the tigers v Sharks build up and they are still talking Manu. How deflating.

Put Kelly In at 12 and move on. Jeez

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah I'd pick who I wanted to who qualified. For a while there I'd have much preferred Morgan over Vunipola sad for those run of injuries that opened the door. I don't see vunipola as less deserving though.
Sounds like Lidenberg doesn't qualify anyway from the update above.

Ben Morgan was a tremendous player...could have been very special for England if things had gone right. Billy was very special for a long time for England have never complained about his selection for the reasons I said above. Will use the law in certain cases but try to avoid it when possible.  

I agree, for a short time, Ben Morgan reallly seemed like he was the goods.  In addition to doing the usual Number 8 work, he was deceptively quick and had great ball skills.  And so much of the time he did it with a smile on his face, so clearly showed how much he enjoyed playing.  An in-form Billy was a load to stop and was also quick.  No issue between the two of them.  Only thing is both are past their best (it's actually great to see Morgan still playing).  Which number 8s around the Premiership are the closest, especially on attack, to in-form Ben Morgan or Billy?

I assume Doc your are alluding to "The One and Only" Juarno Augustus, but sadly he will not be available to England for a number of years yet unless an English grandma/pa officially adopts him.

Then adopt him already! I leave the country and are prohibited from adopting him as English because my main residence, such as it is, is outside both His Majesty's domains and the Commonwealth. If one of us were to adopt him, I am sure no questions would be asked, especialy after England have secured the RWC title...

Geordie wrote:Watching the tigers v Sharks build up and they are still talking Manu. How deflating.  

Put Kelly In at 12 and move on. Jeez

I think Manu and Sale won this particular battle. I understand the frustrations with Manu's injuries, but he is still for me comfortably the best centre available to England when fit. If he is fit then pick him -if he isn't don't. He won't be available after the world cup so we can move on then. But I don't see the point in not picking our best option in a position just because they have been injured, or there is someone younger available.

Regarding Manu, I was always his biggest fan and would always pick him if fit. However, supposedly he was fully fit in autumn games but just didn't do it. I think his weight loss which was done to prevent injury has made him less effective. The explosive power has definitely waned.
If he produces barn storming consistent games in next month or so then he deserves to be in Eng squad but to be picked on past reputation no. Likewise several others.

Marler, again a stupid ban. If he should get picked for Eng then teams will be looking to wind him up and get a reaction.

Remarkably lenient ban. I've not read the summary but assume they classed his comment as tame initially.

Knowing what was said and the status of the targets family member I would have reacted similar to Heenhan or maybe more.

Sledging Is part of the game that should not be removed.its a tough collision sport.

However Marler should have engaged brain in this case...unless he didn't know the situation with said family member.

mountain man wrote:Regarding Manu, I was always his biggest fan and would always pick him if fit. However, supposedly he was fully fit in autumn games but just didn't do it. I think his weight loss which was done to prevent injury has made him less effective. The explosive power has definitely waned.
If he produces barn storming consistent games in next month or so then he deserves to be in Eng squad but to be picked on past reputation no. Likewise several others.

Marler, again a stupid ban. If he should get picked for Eng then teams will be looking to wind him up and get a reaction.

I'm more concerned with what he does around the park at the moment...I'd like to see stats of what he actually contributes away form the scrum these days.

nlpnlp wrote:

Geordie wrote:Watching the tigers v Sharks build up and they are still talking Manu. How deflating.  

Put Kelly In at 12 and move on. Jeez

I think Manu and Sale won this particular battle.  I understand the frustrations with Manu's injuries, but he is still for me comfortably the best centre available to England when fit.  If he is fit then pick him -if he isn't don't.  He won't be available after the world cup so we can move on then.  But I don't see the point in not picking our best option in a position just because they have been injured, or there is someone younger available.

Just can't agree with that now...he used to be ...but no longer.

His team dominated last night and yet he looked a spent force.
Kelly in a losing fight showed up more.

12 kelly
13 Slade / Lawrence preferably

I'd look at this now.

Geordie wrote:Knowing what was said and the status of the targets family member I would have reacted similar to Heenhan or maybe more.

Sledging Is part of the game that should not be removed.its a tough collision sport.

However Marler should have engaged brain in this case...unless he didn't know the situation with said family member.

But then sledging is there to out people off. It's in the vein off a joke comment here and there, the pats on the head of an opposition player. I'm happy to see players penalised but the spirit of the game talk etc means its quite difficult to know where the line is. Knowing certain people have short fuses isn't exactly going to stop you targeting them.