England still winning the RWC at a canter - The RWC phase

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Assuming and currently it is quite a big assumption England get through group I can't see them winning QF against whoever they face. Bloody hopeless

That game showed the gulf between the top 4 sides and us. Some of the old guard should retire after next week so maybe we won't pick players on past glory.

If I was picking next year's 6N squad, Lawes, Vunipola, Tuilagi, Youngs, Marler and Cole will all be gone, sadly along with the evergreen Care.

Expecting the current gang to do anything like Ireland, France, NZ or South Africa is laughable.

Woodward just said, in one breath, that Smith had to play 15, and that everyone needs to go back to their positions. Wtf?

Farrell not a 12,. End of discussion.

Either play him at 10 or drop him. Lawrence and Smith made big difference when they came on as did Care.

Borthwick team selection is awful.

I agree with SCW (I feel dirty), Farrell plays 10 or nothing now. It might have worked in the past, but there isn't enough time now for the defence to be comfortable with him at 12.

Can't believe how some were rating Cole and Marler. Sorry best days long long gone. Lawes still good enough.

Love to know what 15/23 is picked for QF. Cannot be same as today. Just not good enough.

Cumbrian wrote:That highlights the problem there, we needlessly kick the ball away in their 22 and nearly concede the try. Why?  Even if we concede the penalty they get to half way at best, absolutely braindead.

It was very much on but a bit under hit. To be honest I'm disappointed we went wide given the time on the clock. Staying central and setting up a shot at the drop goal was the wise move. With Care and Farrell on the pitch they should have been orchestrating this.

Martin's hit on Sapoaga that forced the knock was the first time we've seen one of the big hits he's got a reputation for at Tigers. Hopefully it's going to become a regular thing with England as well.

Makes me wonder if our players just aren't good enough....

And I think that feeling that the players are good enough will continue until Borthwick goes. Then...

Anyone think England will beat Fiji next week?

Either England are really this bad and will get thumped in the quarter finals, or that was a half-hearted showing because they'd already topped the group. In the case of the former it's impossible to argue Borthwick has done anything other than continue the rot and oversee the team getting worse - and he needs to go. In the case of the latter they should be offering a refund to all the England fans that travelled to support them, because that performance was hugely disrespectful to them - there will be folks that have paid a lot of money to be there, and maybe when money is tight, only to see overpaid useless idiots trotting round the pitch not giving a monkeys.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:That highlights the problem there, we needlessly kick the ball away in their 22 and nearly concede the try. Why?  Even if we concede the penalty they get to half way at best, absolutely braindead.

It was very much on but a bit under hit. To be honest I'm disappointed we went wide given the time on the clock. Staying central and setting up a shot at the drop goal was the wise move. With Care and Farrell on the pitch they should have been orchestrating this.

Martin's hit on Sapoaga that forced the knock was the first time we've seen one of the big hits he's got a reputation for at Tigers. Hopefully it's going to become a regular thing with England as well.

To be honest, to me it doesn't matter if it was on, it was a high risk play when we were defending a one point lead. I understand that it would have looked brilliant if it had come off, but I think I'd have rather they stuck it in the corner if they were going to kick. Why pick that point to press the risk button, when we'd been so conservative all match.

Duty281 wrote:Anyone think England will beat Fiji next week?

No not on that showing. Team selection wrong, attitude after having a break wrong. Samoa on balance of play should have won. We were toffee. The game should have been shown with the Benny hill music or clown music. Hats off to Samoa and I don't think their 13 knocked it on. At least Fiji will make another semifinal and deservedly so.

Lastly, what planet was faz on today?

Surely time up for several players now. Billy, May, Cole, Marler, Farrell (maybe?). Jamie George normally so reliable was poor.

So many basic errors.

Cumbrian wrote:I agree with SCW (I feel dirty), Farrell plays 10 or nothing now.   It might have worked in the past, but there isn't enough time now for the defence to be comfortable with him at 12.

Was that where the issue was defensively? I just felt England defended very narrow, as is their system, then didn't adjust when Samoa went wide immediately rather than running at the stacked fringe defence. They should have done what they did against Argentina after the red card, softened the line speed near the ruck to allow them to spread the field more if Samoa were going wide early.

Similar with the breakdown. England don't jackal much as it's high risk and a lot of refs are harsh on jackals currently. Brace was being very lenient on defensive jackals and England didn't respond by attacking more breakdowns.

I thought Farrell was very poor ball in hand (responsible for the ball being lost three times in attack by my memory) and kicking was only OK but his defence I actually felt was decent. As Samoa were outflanking the fringe defence a lot of runners ended up hitting his channel in early phases. He made a lot of good hits I thought. ESPN, usually the best stats available online, have Farrell at 13 tackles and 1 missed for instance.

England were not at races at breakdown. Botia and co will be even tougher test so England need to sort it out sharpish.
Either play Farrell at 10 or nowhere and Manu at 12.
Line out terrible. Not straight throws and losses. Scrum iffy.
Without parity at set piece England got no hope and supposedly that is a strength(!).

No doubt excuses be offered up

I put performances like that out with the bins on Tuesday mornings, Rubbish!

Our defense is always suspect with Manu at 13. I think marchant is an underrated defender. I would have to watch it again (which I won't as it is complete pish) but Manu looked like he was jumping out of the line all the time. Lawrence came on a nailed a couple of lovely tackles and we shored up a bit.

As for the break down the Samoan 7, lee I think was great. Curry was miles off it as he hasn't played in ages. Ah wong was also unlucky to lose as he was quality.

There are definitely questions over the older players and Mitchell for me.

Well, as the battle of the also rans I guess a win is a win. But how did England amass so many mediocre players – so fat, so slow and so old. I mean, I don’t know which pub side Mitchell plays for, but I’ll be surprised if they want him back after that showing. And putting the big lad Chessum on the wing is an amusing idea, and let’s face it he’s faster than Jonny these days, but come on. And OF’s internal clock needs a reset.

Chessum played pretty well I thought. Mitchell definitely an off day but when he's on it he's really good.
Surely post RWC Young's is gone so hopefully Quirke gets a look. Realistically how much longer will Care play for England.

He shouldn't be playing now so who knows.

mountain man wrote:Realistically how much longer will Care play for England.

About 2 weeks at a guess

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Well, as the battle of the also rans I guess a win is a win. But how did England amass so many mediocre players – so fat, so slow and so old. I mean, I don’t know which pub side Mitchell plays for, but I’ll be surprised if they want him back after that showing. And putting the big lad Chessum on the wing is an amusing idea, and let’s face it he’s faster than Jonny these days, but come on. And OF’s internal clock needs a reset.

Marchant was too busy in the centres. To be fair Chessum was OK out wide

Already depressing me seeing the other Farrells Ireland.

mountain man wrote:England were not at races at breakdown. Botia and co will be even tougher test so England need to sort it out sharpish.
Either play Farrell at 10 or nowhere and Manu at 12.
Line out terrible. Not straight throws and losses. Scrum iffy.
Without parity at set piece England got no hope and supposedly that is a strength(!).

No doubt excuses be offered up

No Manu either for me

12 Lawrence
13 Marchant

king_carlos wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I agree with SCW (I feel dirty), Farrell plays 10 or nothing now.   It might have worked in the past, but there isn't enough time now for the defence to be comfortable with him at 12.

Was that where the issue was defensively? I just felt England defended very narrow, as is their system, then didn't adjust when Samoa went wide immediately rather than running at the stacked fringe defence. They should have done what they did against Argentina after the red card, softened the line speed near the ruck to allow them to spread the field more if Samoa were going wide early.

Similar with the breakdown. England don't jackal much as it's high risk and a lot of refs are harsh on jackals currently. Brace was being very lenient on defensive jackals and England didn't respond by attacking more breakdowns.

I thought Farrell was very poor ball in hand (responsible for the ball being lost three times in attack by my memory) and kicking was only OK but his defence I actually felt was decent. As Samoa were outflanking the fringe defence a lot of runners ended up hitting his channel in early phases. He made a lot of good hits I thought. ESPN, usually the best stats available online, have Farrell at 13 tackles and 1 missed for instance.

No, certainly I agree with you, it was the wide defence that was the issue. I just saw Farrell and Manu get carved apart and flap at each other at first phase ball. It could have been Manu’s fault, I’m just not particularly predisposed to being generous to Mr Northern Roadblock tonight. I’ll look again tomorrow and maybe reevaluate.

Manus lack of pace was glaringly obvious...and not being the physical monster hexoncecwas means he nothing.

Lawrence was like a sprinter compared to him.

I suppose could be worse, at least Eng in QF. Poor old Scotland who are better side than them are going home tomorrow. Doesn't look like any backroom agreement to put SA out that's for sure.

England surely wont be that bad next game...

Geordie wrote:England surely wont be that bad next game...

Why?

England quite likely play better and even win but they are so unconvincing that if they do win QF I just cannot see them getting through SF

England played like they did against Fiji in August. Holes everywhere and nobody seemed to figure out what was wrong. It should be automatic by now.

FARRELL IS A 10. FARRELL IS A 10. FARRELL IS A 10.

Tuilagi is done.

Tuilagi can still do a job but only at 12. He was good against Argentina there.

Tbf rewatched the Argentina game. They cut through us as easy but knocked on chances. We created nothing and kicked everything. What has changed? We even won again and that's what counts ain't it?

mountain man wrote:Tuilagi can still do a job but only at 12. He was good against Argentina there.

Possibly yes...but no way in the outside positions. But I think I'd go for Lawrence again..

Jeez I hope a few centres just step up and stand out in the prem this season...

I mean no matter what the midfield isn't a big deal with England but it makes think why wasn't Kelly picked given the main point is defending and he's up there with the best? We've kept our selection to replace Willis back for after this game so it may throw up a surprise. I can't see another flanker being too much use so maybe a centre of the other Willis may be picked.

Re Willis replacement. My guess is that Watson or LCD might be getting put through the grinder with fitness tests if either are already back in full training. It was reported that LCD was on the standby list when the squad was announced as he might be fit towards the end of the tournament. Watson is rumoured to have been training. If either have a chance of being ready then they'd potentially add to either position that most needs bolstering.

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:Tuilagi can still do a job but only at 12. He was good against Argentina there.

Possibly yes...but no way in the outside positions.  But I think I'd go for Lawrence again..

Jeez I hope a few centres just step up and stand out in the prem this season...

Plenty of players stand out in the Prem. Whether doing that means as much with the Prems current standards is by far the bigger question IMO.

Manu has lost his pace and power that made him a deadly 13, and he's just not good enough to defend at 12,

Currently your best centers are Lawrence and Marchant.
And Farrell is a ten and only a ten, and currently isn't playing well enough to start ahead of ford, and is he a better option on the bench than Smith? Is borthwick brave enough to not have him in the 23?

The biggest concern is the basic unforced errors and discipline.
Its seems to fix for a few games then boom today awful.

I've generally backed SB on here but you csnt defend that performance and many of the selections we questioned are now coming to light.

Billy V over T Willis or Mercer...

Why was Dan Kelly not in?
Etc etc etc

There are echoes of the 2011 World Cup campaign. When Ireland beat Australia in their pool match, England suddenly had a pathway to the final which avoided the big Southern Hemisphere sides. After never really clicking in our pool matches, we went out lamely to France in the quarter-finals.

Back then, Martin Johnson tried to shoehorn Wilkinson into an England team which had starrted to find a bit of form in the previous eighteen months. However, Wilkinson's distribution shortcomings, and horrendous kick success rate ended up being disruptive. Johnson would probably have done better leaving his proven match-winner on the bench, or out of the team entirely. Toby Flood was kicking more reliably, and had been the starting fly-half in the big wins before the tournament.

Borthwick might be in a similar position with Farrell. For whatever reason, England have looked more disciplined, and defensively sound, when Farrell isn't playing centre. So far, Ford has looked to be in better form as a starting 10.

Some more knives are being drawn now for Borthwick through the media it seems. I do like Woodwards piece just for it has to be Ford or farrell we've got to start playing people in their correct positions. Followed by he would play Smith at full back.

I'm surprised that we haven't already had the injury call up now. Feels that we're going to see it Monday and it's not going to make much difference to the team makeup for the qf.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Some more knives are being drawn now for Borthwick through the media it seems. I do like Woodwards piece just for it has to be Ford or farrell we've got to start playing people in their correct positions. Followed by he would play Smith at full back.

I'm surprised that we haven't already had the injury call up now. Feels that we're going to see it Monday and it's not going to make much difference to the team makeup for the qf.

Well Woodward said this pre match and at half time and he's right. It can only be Ford or Farrell in team, I've said all along Farrell not a 12 and unfortunately it proved to be so. Manu 12 or out. Marchant 13 not wing for me.
Probably best options currently are Lawrence 12 and Marchant 13 but where does that leave Ford, Farrell and Smith? I can't see Borthwick leaving any out of 23.

As for who could come in from outside squad, too late for that now. Rebuild post RWC for 6N once season starts and see how likes of Kelly goes in next few months.
Also very concerning is set piece. Where are the props coming from?

I'm amazed that someone as experienced as Harrison hasn't been able to improve Dan Cole further.

Two players I will try to watch closely is Ted Hill...and his physicality. The stats showed he didn't hit the levels of the other current squad back rowers...but I wonder what he brings in other aspects...with his power etc

The other is Tom Pearson....for obvious reasons.

I think George Martin hasn't really taken his opportunity this world Cup although he put in a shuddering rackle yesterday. However he's young this WC will have been massive experience and this season he knows what is required of the powerhouse lock at this level. If he wants that spot he's going to have to really work on channelling that aspect of his game...

He'll have Chessum Jr cpming through pushing him at his club which will be a fascinating thing to watch. Especially if Chessum Jr progresses as quick as Ollie did...

Tight head big issue.

Hooker is press the rest button...hopefully this experience has been brilliant for Dan and Saracens continue to develop him.

And LH...we'll Mako and probably Marler will be gone so Genge, and then...who?

If you're thinking youngster rodd and baxter for me. But I don't think we'll see that much change after the WC in terms of selections unless they're enforced through injury or retirement.

Martin made one good tackle but that's it. Sorry but nothing I've seen from him suggests he is Int class (yet).

Hooker, why was George kept on for 80 mins? Baffling, especially as he hardly had his best game.

So many decisions from Borthwick that are just not working.

No 7&1/2 wrote:If you're thinking youngster rodd and baxter for me. But I don't think we'll see that much change after the WC in terms of selections unless they're enforced through injury or retirement.

I do think we'll lose Marler and Mako. So I think there'll be a chance for 2 Lhs...

mountain man wrote:Martin made one good tackle but that's it. Sorry but nothing I've seen from him suggests he is Int class (yet).

Hooker, why was George kept on for 80 mins? Baffling, especially as he hardly had his best game.

So many decisions from Borthwick that are just not working.

I agree....Martin hasn't really brought what many hoped...but lock is a heavy duty position and he's 22. Lots of time to develop. And the key aspect is the experience of this world Cup. He now knows the level of power, fitness, pace abs intensity required...andbwe haven't played thw likes of Ireland, France etc...which is another level altogether.

Even Fiji will be another learning experience. They come at you with everything...FAST!!

BBC podcast pretty much sums up what most of us are saying. Dawson usually not the best but in this one he is spot on.
Farrell being made capt has backed Borthwick into corner. So many positional selections wrong, Ford has to be 10 and Farrell dropped.
But it won't happen.