Rugby World Cup - other team/games and general chat

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Carried on from.........

https://www.606v2.com/t71218-rugby-world-cup-other-team-games-and-general-chat

Game has been pretty wild. Portugal's sin bin period cost them the game. They lost 21-0 in that 10 minutes.

The whole card system in this World Cup is messed up.

Would also add that if Fiji were as poor as they were against Georgia, then Portugal have a chance of turning them over. But Australia would need Fiji to lose by 8+ and not score 4 tries, so their hopes seem forlorn.

I really hope whatever world rugby has done is going to change back after the world cup cos it's going to become unwatchable if it continues into the club seasons

neilthom7 wrote:I really hope whatever world rugby has done is going to change back after the world cup cos it's going to become unwatchable if it continues into the club seasons

Oh it will. The whole thing is purely so teams don’t have their World Cup “ruined” by individual’s stupid tackles. It’s gone too far though. Way too far.

I wonder what it's like in the stadium? On tv there is some sort of explanation on offer from the refs (when commentators aren't talking over them) but in stadium you see like 1 or 2 replays maybe then off the guy goes and next thing you know the person is either getting a yellow or red card and to be fair you probably don't know how they came to the decision, it must be confusing in stadium

Australia are still alive then, by the skin of their teeth.

I can see Portugal beating Fiji and hope they do, nothing against Fiji.

But think it will be close that Fiji get the lbp that sees them through.

I see hands on the floor isn’t an offence in this game.

Sensible decision by Pearce there. Tongan 9 was about as low as he could get and gets done by the step. He’s having a good game, I think - not seen much that he’s missed and even things that looked like bad calls have often been correct on replay

Couple of Boks playing themselves out of contention for starting in the knock out rounds.

Tonga bringing the physicality, especially at the maul. Decision makingby the forwards need to improve. It is fine to have patience building the maul, but Tonga is closing the maul and if it goes static we get turned over.

Poorfour wrote:Sensible decision by Pearce there. Tongan 9 was about as low as he could get and gets done by the step. He’s having a good game, I think - not seen much that he’s missed and even things that looked like bad calls have often been correct on replay

Yes common sense prevailed there, he couldn't really get much lower..

What’s everyone’s thoughts on Etzabeth only having a penalty and no yellow card? What will Tom Curry and England think?

He needs to have it removed from his rwcord. A total joke...

Ps irs Tom...not Ben

I didn't see much in the supposed interference by Tonga players pushing him into that ...

Well that's messing up SA's PD which was looking like it was heading towards all but guaranteeing them through ...

Frak, how many errors can the Boks make?

So if my calculations are correct mathematically SA can still be knocked out as they needed one more converted try to guarantee their place ...

If the Boks want to get past the QF they will seriously need to improve their error rate and execution.

Tonga did really well in this match, they threw everything at the Boks for 80 minutes, looked very dangerous in the red zone and their set piece was excellent,.

Heaf wrote:So if my calculations are correct mathematically SA can still be knocked out as they needed one more converted try to guarantee their place ...

Scotland will need to beat Ireland by 21 points and get a try bonus point.

Which then means Ireland will need to score try bonus point, but then points difference Ireland won't make it to the QF

Heaf wrote:So if my calculations are correct mathematically SA can still be knocked out as they needed one more converted try to guarantee their place ...

Even with another converted try they could've gone out if Scotland beat Ireland by 26+ but Ireland scored a try bonus point.  Points difference between three tied teams is only the first differentiator, if I understand correctly that means the second place would then be decided by the head to head of the next two sides.

Galted wrote:

Heaf wrote:So if my calculations are correct mathematically SA can still be knocked out as they needed one more converted try to guarantee their place ...

Even with another converted try they could've gone out if Scotland beat Ireland by 26+ but Ireland scored a try bonus point.  Points difference between three tied teams is only the first differentiator, if I understand correctly that means the second place would then be decided by the head to head of the next two sides.

If Ireland loses by more than 6 points, even with try bonus point SA will go through on points difference

If ireland has beaten SA, SA has beaten Scotland and Scotland has beaten Ireland then points difference is the tie breaker

Two excellent games today! Love the pool stages.

Try of the weekend goes to Pellegrini for his solo chip and chase, can't believe he was playing for Seven Oaks not so long ago

Galted wrote:

Heaf wrote:So if my calculations are correct mathematically SA can still be knocked out as they needed one more converted try to guarantee their place ...

Even with another converted try they could've gone out if Scotland beat Ireland by 26+ but Ireland scored a try bonus point.  Points difference between three tied teams is only the first differentiator, if I understand correctly that means the second place would then be decided by the head to head of the next two sides.

Ah yes - I sort of thought that one through then forgot about the Ireland v SA head to head again ...

I think you are spot on Galted, in theory if Scotland score enough points but ireland get the try bonus point then points would get Scotland through and then Ireland and South Africa would be head to head. And my head hurts thinking about it all lol

Old Man wrote:

Galted wrote:

Heaf wrote:So if my calculations are correct mathematically SA can still be knocked out as they needed one more converted try to guarantee their place ...

Even with another converted try they could've gone out if Scotland beat Ireland by 26+ but Ireland scored a try bonus point.  Points difference between three tied teams is only the first differentiator, if I understand correctly that means the second place would then be decided by the head to head of the next two sides.

If Ireland loses by more than 6 points, even with try bonus point SA will go through on points difference

Not if Scotland end up with the best points difference.  Like I said, it's my understanding so I could be wrong, but if Scotland go through with the best points difference the next differentiator would be the head to head between SA and Ireland which would see SA out.  If that is the case Scotland would need to win by 21+ with Ireland scoring 4 tries for them both to go through.

Old Man wrote:If ireland has beaten SA, SA has beaten Scotland and Scotland has beaten Ireland then points difference is the tie breaker

Only for top spot apparently - then it's head to head for the remaining two - although I haven't been able to confirm this ...

neilthom7 wrote:I think you are spot on Galted, in theory if Scotland score enough points but ireland get the try bonus point then points would get Scotland through and then Ireland and South Africa would be head to head.  And my head hurts thinking about it all lol

I know what you mean, my head is succumbing to the pain.

Heaf wrote:

Old Man wrote:If ireland has beaten SA, SA has beaten Scotland and Scotland has beaten Ireland then points difference is the tie breaker

Only for top spot apparently - then it's head to head for the remaining two - although I haven't been able to confirm this ...

Official rules from rugby world cup site

If at the completion of the pool phase two or more Teams are level on Match points, then the following criteria shall be used in the following order until one of the Teams can be determined as the higher ranked:

The winner of the Match in which the two tied Teams have played each other shall be the higher ranked.
The Team which has the best difference between points scored for and points scored against in all its pool Matches shall be the higher ranked.
The Team which has the best difference between tries scored for and tries scored against in all its pool Matches shall be the higher ranked.
The Team which has scored most points in all its pool Matches shall be the higher ranked.
The Team which has scored most tries in all its pool Matches shall be the higher ranked.
Should the tie be unresolved at the conclusion of steps 1 through 5, the rankings as per the updated. Official World Rugby World Rankings on October 14, 2019 will determine the higher ranked Team.

For clarification, in the case of a tie between three or more Teams at the end of the pool phase, once the highest ranked Team has been determined following the above criteria, to determine the next higher ranked Team the process would repeat, starting at criterion 1.

Heaf wrote:

Old Man wrote:If ireland has beaten SA, SA has beaten Scotland and Scotland has beaten Ireland then points difference is the tie breaker

Only for top spot apparently - then it's head to head for the remaining two - although I haven't been able to confirm this ...

I could be wrong, but the points difference doesn't come into play until step one of the calculation is completed, which in this case means a beat b beat c beat a

Thus points difference then establishes which go through.

So essentially where there is a 3 way tie the first place will be determined by points difference. 2nd and 3rd place would then be determined via the head to head game.

neilthom7 wrote:

Heaf wrote:

Old Man wrote:If ireland has beaten SA, SA has beaten Scotland and Scotland has beaten Ireland then points difference is the tie breaker

Only for top spot apparently - then it's head to head for the remaining two - although I haven't been able to confirm this ...

Official rules from rugby world cup site

If at the completion of the pool phase two or more Teams are level on Match points, then the following criteria shall be used in the following order until one of the Teams can be determined as the higher ranked:

   The winner of the Match in which the two tied Teams have played each other shall be the higher ranked.
   The Team which has the best difference between points scored for and points scored against in all its pool Matches shall be the higher ranked.
   The Team which has the best difference between tries scored for and tries scored against in all its pool Matches shall be the higher ranked.
   The Team which has scored most points in all its pool Matches shall be the higher ranked.
   The Team which has scored most tries in all its pool Matches shall be the higher ranked.
   Should the tie be unresolved at the conclusion of steps 1 through 5, the rankings as per the updated. Official World Rugby World Rankings on October 14, 2019 will determine the higher ranked Team.

For clarification, in the case of a tie between three or more Teams at the end of the pool phase, once the highest ranked Team has been determined following the above criteria, to determine the next higher ranked Team the process would repeat, starting at criterion 1.

How do you establish the highest ranked team if they all beat each other?

You could argue scotland beat ireland, but you then have to look at their loss to SA,

neilthom7 wrote:So essentially where there is a 3 way tie the first place will be determined by points difference.  2nd and 3rd place would then be determined via the head to head game.  

That doesn't make sense.

Old Man wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:So essentially where there is a 3 way tie the first place will be determined by points difference.  2nd and 3rd place would then be determined via the head to head game.  

That doesn't make sense.

To give a hypothetical situation, if Scotland win 49-26 with Ireland scoring 4 tries, it's a three way tie on 15 points.  Scotland then have the best points difference and go through, leaving SA and Ireland to be decided by the head to head which would see Ireland through.  Not massively likely but just enough to give you a bit of a worry this week.

The bit in bold clarifies it - the first criteria (head to head) is indeterminate for 3 tied teams so it moves to the second one - points difference. Once the top team is determined from PD then the criteria goes back to the top for the remaining 2 teams - head to head ...

Old Man wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:

Heaf wrote:

Old Man wrote:If ireland has beaten SA, SA has beaten Scotland and Scotland has beaten Ireland then points difference is the tie breaker

Only for top spot apparently - then it's head to head for the remaining two - although I haven't been able to confirm this ...

Official rules from rugby world cup site

If at the completion of the pool phase two or more Teams are level on Match points, then the following criteria shall be used in the following order until one of the Teams can be determined as the higher ranked:

   The winner of the Match in which the two tied Teams have played each other shall be the higher ranked.
   The Team which has the best difference between points scored for and points scored against in all its pool Matches shall be the higher ranked.
   The Team which has the best difference between tries scored for and tries scored against in all its pool Matches shall be the higher ranked.
   The Team which has scored most points in all its pool Matches shall be the higher ranked.
   The Team which has scored most tries in all its pool Matches shall be the higher ranked.
   Should the tie be unresolved at the conclusion of steps 1 through 5, the rankings as per the updated. Official World Rugby World Rankings on October 14, 2019 will determine the higher ranked Team.

For clarification, in the case of a tie between three or more Teams at the end of the pool phase, once the highest ranked Team has been determined following the above criteria, to determine the next higher ranked Team the process would repeat, starting at criterion 1.

How do you establish the highest ranked team if they all beat each other?

You could argue scotland beat ireland, but you then have to look at their loss to SA,

If they all beat each other then it moves down to point 2 which is the points difference. Assuming there isn't 2 of them the same on points difference the best points difference would then be the winner of the group.

They would then restart the criteria to determine who is second only in this case theres only 2 teams and so the head to head would be whoever won their game

Well good luck to Scotland beating Ireland by 21 points

Yes this is off course very unlikely to actually be something we need to think about next weekend but it is fun to speculate

Hope Ireland win, because I don't have the requisite PHD in Astrophysics to work out the three-way H2H.

If it's a three way tie on 15 points then it comes down to PD for top spot but head-to-heads for the second spot. If it's a two way tie for top spot then it's head-to-head. IIRC.

If Scotland win against Ireland with neither side taking any BPs then the Boks will top the group on 15 points, Scotland will go through on head-to-head against Ireland with both of them on 14 points.

If Scotland win with no TBP but Ireland get one BP then they will be drawn on 15 points with the Boks and Ireland through in top spot after winning their colossal head-to-head.

If Scotland take a TBP win and Ireland get either a LBP or a TBP then all three will be on 15 points. Then it's PD for top spot and head-to-head for second. Irelands PD is currently 122, SA's 117. So if Ireland lost by less then 5 points they'd get a LBP and go through in top spot on PD. With Scotland missing out due to losing their match with SA. If Ireland lost by 6 or 7 points with Scotland getting a TBP then SA would top the group on PD, Ireland would miss out on the head-to-head.

The most hilarious possibility. If Ireland lose by 5 points but Scotland get a TBP. Then all three sides are on 15 points with SA and Ire drawn on 117 PD. It then comes down to which side has the better difference between tries scored and tries conceded. Ireland have scored 22 and conceded 4. SA have scored 21 and conceded 4. So if Ireland conceded one more try than they score against Scotland both sides would have the same differential.

It's all getting rather complicated. Unless Ireland win, draw or even lose with both a LBP and TBP. In which case they just top the group on points and Scotland couldn't qualify as the max points they can get is 15, tying with the Boks and they lost the head-to-head with SA.

Basically, the Boks are pretty much through be it in in first or second place as Scotland are very unlikely to overhaul the PD. There are then ways in which Ireland or Scotland could qualify with varying degrees of convoluted maths involved.

Scotland winning whilst denying Ireland any BPs being the obvious. Both sides getting one BP but Ireland being losing by more than 5 points so SA are ahead on PD as well.

Ireland are so clinical under Faz that I'd be very surprised if they didn't win though.

Outside of the obvious match-ups and pools, I haven't really enjoyed this world cup compared to previous one. I've started missing most games. There are too many dud matches, no point in having Romania or Namibia here. WR needs to step in and develop these nations, and also get the islanders in a competitive tournament. Otherwise, don't invite them to the next RWC.

I know WR wants to grow the game, but I think there should be two tournaments run concurrently, 16 top teams and the next 16.

It's not been a good RWC. Outside of the games themselves I'd ask a lot of questions over coverage here in the UK, as it has been poor. We have only been watching online and it is only a minor glitch but the inability to rewind or fast forward in the games is annoying compared to what we are used to with other providers. The talking heads seem weaker than ever, and if there are any highlights/ RWC news programs out there they are definitely not well advertised.

Right or wrong it feels that the authorities are trying to exercise too much control over the media. One of the unfortunate consequences of this has been that the main talking point has been head injuries, which is absolutely the last thing you need if you are trying to grow the game.

As for the games the big question, as ever, is over the treatment of the minnows. This falls into 2 related categories. The first is how many teams have graduated from minnow to elite status. Over the 36 year history of the RWC how many teams have actually done this? You could argue for Fiji, possibly Argentina but both teams have been there or thereabouts over those 36 years with Fiji making the QF back in 1987. Canada made a QF in 1991 but didn't make it at all this time around.

Then there is how competitive the matchups are. We haven't done that badly this year. There have been some hugely one sided games which highlight the gap but there have been some surprisingly competitive games too. Georgia Fiji was one of the better games I have watched.

Worth saying that sevens has been a very positive thing in growing skills amongst the lesser nations.

I'd love the minnows to have something to play for beyond exposure to some of the big boys and 'honorable' defeats.

lostinwales wrote:It's not been a good RWC.

As much as an England victory would be very welcome, it would probably be one of the worst possible results for the sport. No-one outside England will be thrilled and, given the mismanagement by the RFU and Premiership, it would probably be one of the least fertile times to try and capitalize on a win at home.

Rugby Fan wrote:

lostinwales wrote:It's not been a good RWC.

As much as an England victory would be very welcome, it would probably be one of the worst possible results for the sport. No-one outside England will be thrilled and, given the mismanagement by the RFU and Premiership, it would probably be one of the least fertile times to try and capitalize on a win at home.

I disagree on the last point. Engand are hosting RWC 2025, and a victory in the men's tournament would be a great springboard for promoting the women's version with the prospect of England holding both titles at once. It might also give the support on the ground a bit of a shot in the arm - which is something most of the clubs would be very grateful for.

lostinwales wrote:It's not been a good RWC. Outside of the games themselves I'd ask a lot of questions over coverage here in the UK, as it has been poor. We have only been watching online and it is only a minor glitch but the inability to rewind or fast forward in the games is annoying compared to what we are used to with other providers. The talking heads seem weaker than ever, and if there are any highlights/ RWC news programs out there they are definitely not well advertised.

Right or wrong it feels that the authorities are trying to exercise too much control over the media. One of the unfortunate consequences of this has been that the main talking point has been head injuries, which is absolutely the last thing you need if you are trying to grow the game.

As for the games the big question, as ever, is over the treatment of the minnows. This falls into 2 related categories. The first is how many teams have graduated from minnow to elite status. Over the 36 year history of the RWC how many teams have actually done this? You could argue for Fiji, possibly Argentina but both teams have been there or thereabouts over those 36 years with Fiji making the QF back in 1987. Canada made a QF in 1991 but didn't make it at all this time around.

Then there is how competitive the matchups are. We haven't done that badly this year. There have been some hugely one sided games which highlight the gap but there have been some surprisingly competitive games too. Georgia Fiji was one of the better games I have watched.

Worth saying that sevens has been a very positive thing in growing skills amongst the lesser nations.

I'd love the minnows to have something to play for beyond exposure to some of the big boys and 'honorable' defeats.

Remarkably the thing they're trying to avoid by letting everyone off.

There does appear to be a remarkable lack of highlights or incidents on twitter etc. All the usual users which do vid etc have been copyrighted out, you get a sanitised try being scored but vastly reduced vids which are out of the normal that are usually picked up by a user or pundit etc. Bit of a dogs dinner.

I take teh last point back as I've seen the official twitter post a video of 2 guys changing their shorts. That'll get people into the sport.

Poorfour wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

lostinwales wrote:It's not been a good RWC.

As much as an England victory would be very welcome, it would probably be one of the worst possible results for the sport. No-one outside England will be thrilled and, given the mismanagement by the RFU and Premiership, it would probably be one of the least fertile times to try and capitalize on a win at home.

I disagree on the last point. Engand are hosting RWC 2025, and a victory in the men's tournament would be a great springboard for promoting the women's version with the prospect of England holding both titles at once. It might also give the support on the ground a bit of a shot in the arm - which is something most of the clubs would be very grateful for.

I hate to come back to entertainment, but enjoying games are going to bring people to see teams, not seeing England kick away ball and hoping for mistakes.

I think it's been an excellent RWC so far.
Some great games between top teams and some crackers involving tier 2 nations.

Some issues regarding red cards and interpretation but that was always going to be case but actual rugby been great.

As for the very unlikely scenario of England winning, why would that be bad? If they do go on to win after such a diabolical last 2-3 years then that would surely demonstrate they got it together in time and overcame the odds.

As I say, highly unlikely but if it happens I'll be fine with that.

Poorfour wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

lostinwales wrote:It's not been a good RWC.

As much as an England victory would be very welcome, it would probably be one of the worst possible results for the sport. No-one outside England will be thrilled and, given the mismanagement by the RFU and Premiership, it would probably be one of the least fertile times to try and capitalize on a win at home.

I disagree on the last point. Engand are hosting RWC 2025, and a victory in the men's tournament would be a great springboard for promoting the women's version with the prospect of England holding both titles at once. It might also give the support on the ground a bit of a shot in the arm - which is something most of the clubs would be very grateful for.

As you say, there would surely be some impact (if there was none, then we should all fold our tents). However, in previous years, a World Cup victory could have been a catalyst for growth, whereas an unlikely win now feels like it would just help stop the bleeding, rather than lead to better sponsorship and TV deals.

Think my next holiday will be to Uruguay