England still winning the RWC at a canter - The quarter finals and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Carried on..............

Geordie wrote:Or Borthwick wanted to see what Billy can offer and realised he's not that Billy anymore

I mean we can all hope but it is Borthwick.

I don't want Billy near the squad again but he is perhaps the most interesting example of the issues with picking from the Prem given the standards there currently. He's been dire for England, really dismal in the RWC. Since returning to Sarries he's been very good and keeping Willis out the side. He impressed against Tigers, Falcons was a bit of a blowout really, then he apparently was good yesterday as Sarries tore Quins a new one.

I haven't seen that game yet but from what I've read from pundits and heard from fans, Quins ones as well as Sarries, he had a really strong game and clearly won the matchup with Dombrandt.

It poses a tough selection dilemma for any coaching team if your players have to play in a domestic league but it has divebombed to the point that selecting for internationals based on from form in that league is pretty much guesswork.

Farrell and Itoje were also meant to have been very good in that pumping.

I mean you keep saying it's divebombed but the teams showed up well in Europe overall last year. The tope teams are weaker as they're probably not cheating the cap as previous years. Maybe give them a chance to see after the 1st rounds of Europe again. Granted Borthwick is hampered but more by himself and the team than the great players he can choose from.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:Or Borthwick wanted to see what Billy can offer and realised he's not that Billy anymore

I mean we can all hope but it is Borthwick.

Yes we know how you feel about Borthwick...

king_carlos wrote:I don't want Billy near the squad again but he is perhaps the most interesting example of the issues with picking from the Prem given the standards there currently. He's been dire for England, really dismal in the RWC. Since returning to Sarries he's been very good and keeping Willis out the side. He impressed against Tigers, Falcons was a bit of a blowout really, then he apparently was good yesterday as Sarries tore Quins a new one.

I haven't seen that game yet but from what I've read from pundits and heard from fans, Quins ones as well as Sarries, he had a really strong game and clearly won the matchup with Dombrandt.

It poses a tough selection dilemma for any coaching team if your players have to play in a domestic league but it has divebombed to the point that selecting for internationals based on from form in that league is pretty much guesswork.

Farrell and Itoje were also meant to have been very good in that pumping.

Apparently Farrell taught Smith a lesson in rugby

Yup. I'm getting the sense from your posts you also hope he changes?

They really haven't been doing well in Europe comparatively.

One side in the semis last year, Chiefs were humped. Tigers humped and Sarries well beaten in the QFs.

21/22 there were no Prem teams in the semis. Tigers were easily put away in the QF with Leinster still winning by more than a score despite making early subs and going to sleep in the second half. Sale humped in the QFs.

20/21, Sale were humped in the QFs. Chiefs comfortably beaten. No semi-finalists.

Which goes back to 2019/20 before the cap came down and ringfencing. Chiefs won that year. Sarries won 3 of the 4 before that. Which goes back to 2015/16. Which was when England were coincidentally a lot stronger.

It's not an exaggeration to say that I really don't know anyone personally who disagrees that the league has dropped in standards. We've lost 3 teams. The cap has massively reduced so squad depth is worse, hence the worst players on show are worse even if the best players are still strong. Teams rotate away from home far more since ringfencing. European performances have plummeted. Even in a 10 team league Falcons are spending way below others, likely at ProD2 level funding. That's not a criticism of Kurdi. An owner is far better off cutting losses then ploughing ahead as Crossan did. It is another issue in an already weakened league though.

As said many times I think the academy structure is excellent and the talent is there. It just gets to the Premiership and stalls. To develop international players you need your domestic league to be as close to that standard as possible. Then the best teams go deep in Europe which is even closer to internationals. Then you make the jump to internationals and it's a smaller leap. So selecting on club performance has more merit and fewer struggle with the step up. There are many incredibly talented players but they are learning on the job more than they should be as the gap between the league and internationals is too high.

king_carlos wrote:They really haven't been doing well in Europe comparatively.

One side in the semis last year, Chiefs were humped. Tigers humped and Sarries well beaten in the QFs.

21/22 there were no Prem teams in the semis. Tigers were easily put away in the QF with Leinster still winning by more than a score despite making early subs and going to sleep in the second half. Sale humped in the QFs.

20/21, Sale were humped in the QFs. Chiefs comfortably beaten. No semi-finalists.

Which goes back to 2019/20 before the cap came down and ringfencing. Chiefs won that year. Sarries won 3 of the 4 before that. Which goes back to 2015/16. Which was when England were coincidentally a lot stronger.

It's not an exaggeration to say that I really don't know anyone personally who disagrees that the league has dropped in standards. We've lost 3 teams. The cap has massively reduced so squad depth is worse, hence the worst players on show are worse even if the best players are still strong. Teams rotate away from home far more since ringfencing. European performances have plummeted. Even in a 10 team league Falcons are spending way below others, likely at ProD2 level funding. That's not a criticism of Kurdi. An owner is far better off cutting losses then ploughing ahead as Crossan did. It is another issue in an already weakened league though.

As said many times I think the academy structure is excellent and the talent is there. It just gets to the Premiership and stalls. To develop international players you need your domestic league to be as close to that standard as possible. Then the best teams go deep in Europe which is even closer to internationals. Then you make the jump to internationals and it's a smaller leap. So selecting on club performance has more merit and fewer struggle with the step up. There are many incredibly talented players but they are learning on the job more than they should be as the gap between the league and internationals is too high.

Went through the heads to heads on a similar point made on the beeb forum. We reallysteuggled against Irish sides but had a pretty much 50 50 of better against all others which is similar to other years. It may be that we suddenly lose against everyone this year but it wasn't borne out by results last year.

On that last point I do agree that some don't progress from youth. Pretty hopeful that clubs lower wages mean that youngsters will be forced to be picked and thus developed.

Some of the best players around now weren't necessarily the best option in the short term when selected for club or country. Thinking back to Lancaster he probably picked a lower calibre side in his 1st 6 nations and in his forst couple of years than he could have which really reaped benefits long term.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup. I'm getting the sense from your posts you also hope he changes?

Develops and evolves the team yes.....its not rocket science...

At least the midfield might be coming together...

9 Mitchell
10 Farrel v Ford
12 Seb Atkinson
13 Lawrence

So we're kinda on the same area of thought. Just you're an optimist. I can see vP Farrell Tuilagi and Lawrence though fitness depending. Still the same tactics though.

Geordie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:I don't want Billy near the squad again but he is perhaps the most interesting example of the issues with picking from the Prem given the standards there currently. He's been dire for England, really dismal in the RWC. Since returning to Sarries he's been very good and keeping Willis out the side. He impressed against Tigers, Falcons was a bit of a blowout really, then he apparently was good yesterday as Sarries tore Quins a new one.

I haven't seen that game yet but from what I've read from pundits and heard from fans, Quins ones as well as Sarries, he had a really strong game and clearly won the matchup with Dombrandt.

It poses a tough selection dilemma for any coaching team if your players have to play in a domestic league but it has divebombed to the point that selecting for internationals based on from form in that league is pretty much guesswork.

Farrell and Itoje were also meant to have been very good in that pumping.

Apparently Farrell taught Smith a lesson in rugby

Sad but true. Smith had a rare off day. Made Farrell look far better than he was. Similar with Launchbury who really looked past his best and who was given the run around by Itoje.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So we're kinda on the same area of thought. Just you're an optimist. I can see vP Farrell Tuilagi and Lawrence though fitness depending. Still the same tactics though.

And your clearly a pessimist....but it's not difficult to know Borthwick and Jones will continue with the set piece and basic work and improve rhe quality of the kicks and actually bring in an attack...

Well traditionally I like to look on the up side but I haven't seen anything from this team yet. Hopefully you're right and it all turns around. Certainly the initial lineout has improved as you would expect from a set piece coach like Borthwick though the maul is obviously still under worm. Jones well who knows. It sounds like he's been very focused on analysis of thw opposition rather than set roles like defence or attack or set piece so interesting to see what his role will be. Hopefully spells the end of Wigglesworth. And yes the attack is abject but that is how Borthwick has traditionally approached his team relying on mistakes from the opposition. Again that's where we differ you think he's about to completely change his approach and I think he may continue with what he's always done. I'm really not sure that's pessimism. Won't it be incredibly boring to find out over the next 6 to 9 months he lasts though!

Where have I said he will completely change his approach? Your doing what you always do and put words in people's mouths.

I said he will continue with the same but will then rry to improve rhe quality of locks and bring in an attack....as he did with tiger's.

We just don't know how far it would have gone....as England came calling.

Aw fair dos. Leicester remained the same. England have shown the same. But we may develop to something more. I just doubt it.

No the tigres didn't....but anyway I'm done with this again....round and round and round....

Rugby Fan wrote:It's possible the leak of this news is an attempt to get Itoje on the board for one of the RFU hybrid contracts, which is a plan expected to be unveiled next month. He would definitely be one of the 20 core players.

From Chris Foy at the Mail:

All those who assume the RFU will simply make up the wages short-fall, with one of their shiny new ‘hybrid’ contracts, have no clear grasp of just how much the union are prepared to throw around. They are desperate to prevent a further exodus of England players to France and beyond, but can the national governing body really commit £400,000 per year to the retention of one player? That seems highly unlikely, when the current system involves just 10 per cent of that amount being paid for each player supplied to the EPS (Elite Player Squad).

The RFU cannot risk implementing a divisive system which rewards some clubs a lot more than others, as it would be seen as an unfair protection of the status quo. It’s a real can-of-worms issue. Clubs could exploit the situation by offering low-pay deals to those they know the union will move heaven and earth to keep in the country. And, by definition, will the likes of Farrell – and other marquee men – not receive a hybrid contract, if their primary purpose is to prevent players from moving abroad?

Back to Itoje. If his pride has been wounded, he may choose to head to France or Japan. But first, it appears he intends to make a point with his performances. ‘Maro is back,’ said Jamie George, after Saracens had taken Quins to the cleaners. ‘He’s back in a big way! He is as driven as he’s ever been. I don’t have enough superlatives for Maro Itoje. What a player that guy is! When he is like that, it’s contagious.’ So he is highly valued, but money talks. Over to the RFU…

Foy says Saracens chose Farrell to be the marquee name over Itoje, despite being older, because he's the captain and lynchpin. He also says there were rumours Farrell might have entertained a move to Wigan if he'd been offered the pay cut instead. Sounds very unlikely.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:It's possible the leak of this news is an attempt to get Itoje on the board for one of the RFU hybrid contracts, which is a plan expected to be unveiled next month. He would definitely be one of the 20 core players.

From Chris Foy at the Mail:

All those who assume the RFU will simply make up the wages short-fall, with one of their shiny new ‘hybrid’ contracts, have no clear grasp of just how much the union are prepared to throw around. They are desperate to prevent a further exodus of England players to France and beyond, but can the national governing body really commit £400,000 per year to the retention of one player? That seems highly unlikely, when the current system involves just 10 per cent of that amount being paid for each player supplied to the EPS (Elite Player Squad).

The RFU cannot risk implementing a divisive system which rewards some clubs a lot more than others, as it would be seen as an unfair protection of the status quo. It’s a real can-of-worms issue. Clubs could exploit the situation by offering low-pay deals to those they know the union will move heaven and earth to keep in the country. And, by definition, will the likes of Farrell – and other marquee men – not receive a hybrid contract, if their primary purpose is to prevent players from moving abroad?

Back to Itoje. If his pride has been wounded, he may choose to head to France or Japan. But first, it appears he intends to make a point with his performances. ‘Maro is back,’ said Jamie George, after Saracens had taken Quins to the cleaners. ‘He’s back in a big way! He is as driven as he’s ever been. I don’t have enough superlatives for Maro Itoje. What a player that guy is! When he is like that, it’s contagious.’ So he is highly valued, but money talks. Over to the RFU…

Foy says Saracens chose Farrell to be the marquee name over Itoje, despite being older, because he's the captain and lynchpin. He also says there were rumours Farrell might have entertained a move to Wigan if he'd been offered the pay cut instead. Sounds very unlikely.

I suspect the brutal issue for Sarries is that there's no flyhalfs out of contract next summer that would be a good replacement for Farrell. No Irish or French flyhalf worth their salt will come to the UK. Kiwis only seem to head to Japan now. Leaves a pretty narrow offering of injury prone Anscombe, PR nightmare Paddy Jackson or gamble on prying Garbisi away from the Montpellier basket case.

Even then the £400k spot they've got for Itoje might not be enough as most top flyhalfs in the Prem demand north of £500k. Certainly the top tier of Ford, Pollard, Marcus Smith etc all do.

It does seem incredible that Saracens might be prepared to lose Itoje by retaining Farrell. It's a tough choice for sure but given size and quality of sqaud I'm suprised they are not looking into shedding one or two(probably more) players to reduce salary bill and pay him. Or is it a case they cannot pay him £800k if they are already paying same to Farrell? I thought salary cap was just overall limit for squad(plus marquee player).

Maybe they feel they can replace Itoje better than they can replace Farrell....

king_carlos wrote:...

As said many times I think the academy structure is excellent and the talent is there. It just gets to the Premiership and stalls. To develop international players you need your domestic league to be as close to that standard as possible. Then the best teams go deep in Europe which is even closer to internationals. Then you make the jump to internationals and it's a smaller leap. So selecting on club performance has more merit and fewer struggle with the step up. There are many incredibly talented players but they are learning on the job more than they should be as the gap between the league and internationals is too high.

Add in the 'too much choice' issue with selecting for internationals which means that players can easily get discarded before they actually learn how to play at that level

mountain man wrote:It does seem incredible that Saracens might be prepared to lose Itoje by retaining Farrell. It's a tough choice for sure but given size and quality of sqaud I'm suprised they are not looking into shedding one or two(probably more) players to reduce salary bill and pay him. Or is it a case they cannot pay him £800k if they are already paying same to Farrell? I thought salary cap was just overall limit for squad(plus marquee player).

Fitting £800k into the cap, even with the likely increase, would be very tough. Bristol probably the best example of doing that breaking their squad balance.

Most clubs have built contracts for a lot of players to expire when the cap goes back up. They tied players to long term deals early when covid hit, the cap came down and ringfencing happened. They were lower wages but offered security at an uncertain time. Many will expire and will look for increases to keep them. At a lot of clubs, not just Sarries.

Marco Riccioni maybe a good example there. I believe he's out of contract. They signed him as a talented scrummager who needed to round out his game and had some fitness issues - both staying on the pitch and conditioning. He's improved so much at Sarries. The scrummaging has got stronger, all round game better, fitness no longer an issue. He's now a strong international TH who will cost a decent wedge to retain. With Koch gone they will presumably want to as well.

Then there are positions where McCall has smartly cut costs for the last few years. The Sarries SHs, with respect, will be an absolute bargain. Davies, van Zyl and Simpson. There's a decent chance Spencer or Wigglesworth were on more individually. McCall and co clearly decided that as they could take pressure off 9 by using other positions to control the game more that they'd save money there. If they have ambitions in Europe again I'd guess they'll be hunting for at least at starting XV 9.

My prediction will be that Itoje just re-signs on more than the rumoured £400k though. He'll make a less on the club deal than in France but will have England top ups and will have plenty of opportunities to earn outside the game as he's so bright and marketable. I'd be surprised if he isn't at Sarries for his next contract at least. At 29 he'll be targeting another Lions tour and RWC.

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Went through the heads to heads on a similar point made on the beeb forum. We reallysteuggled against Irish sides but had a pretty much 50 50 of better against all others which is similar to other years. It may be that we suddenly lose against everyone this year but it wasn't borne out by results last year.

One semi-finalist, who got pumped, in 3 seasons is a pretty clear indication of how the teams struggle when it gets to the important games and the opposition put full strength out. Compared to 4 winners in 5 seasons. There were seasons when Sarries were an outlier and other teams didn't do as well. But seasons where they weren't too.

The Prem had 5 quarter-finalists and 3 semi-finalists in 2015/16. That just isn't happening now. Even Sarries are struggling to go deep in Europe and at full strength they are clearly the strongest Prem side now. They just pulled Quins pants down. Quins in turn beat Tigers at home the week before in a match where both sides defended like they were blindfolded. Tigers then beat Saints whilst still being fairly rubbish.

It makes the Premiership exciting if you're channel flicking and happen to stumble on a game. When the internationals are available there's basically Sarries at the top, Falcons at the bottom, then 8 teams who can beat each other. When looked at as a whole it simply isn't the standard it needs to be to prepare players for international level.

No 7&1/2 wrote:On that last point I do agree that some don't progress from youth. Pretty hopeful that clubs lower wages mean that youngsters will be forced to be picked and thus developed.

This is a discussion we've been having on here since ringfencing was first discussed. For me, the Premiership being viewed as a nursery for academy grads is part of the issue for me. It should be a cutthroat league where every game matters. The pathways below that should be for developing players that aren't quite ready. A strong Championship and an actual A-league with limit on player over 23-years-old similar to Espoirs in France.

Squad players and journeymen are constantly maligned but they are the players who raise the minimum standard of the league. They make the quality of the worst players stronger, which makes the quality of the worst games better, which sets minimum standards to survive in the league. Young players then have to exceed those standards to get game time. That's what forces improvement.

A brilliant example for me are Calum Green, Harry Wells and Eli Snyman at Tigers with Chessum, Martin and Henderson coming through. The younger three are more talented with higher ceilings. There were often questions of whether Snyman was necessary or the older players should be starting ahead of the younger ones. By having three very good Premiership locks those three had to work and work to get game time. Chessum and Martin had to break through at blindside, prove they could offer the physicality and lineout work to get into the row. Then they had to hold there place in the second row. That constant pressure to improve just for game time is how talented players reach their potential.

Without the squad players you see what we have now, which is talented academy grads getting game time as they are fit when injuries strike. Not necessarily because they are ready for game time. That then drags down the quality of the worst players, worst games, hence the league. Volume of game time is often viewed as most important for young players. IMO quality of game time is more important. 10 minutes from the bench in a high standard will do more for a 21-year-olds development than repeatedly getting 80 minutes in rubbish games.

The focus should be on England quality players rather than England qualified players. Quality rather than quantity. You develop quality by exposing the very best talent to the highest standard domestic tournament possible. Not by exposing as many young players as possible to a lower quality league.

Makes it more obvious we need to allow players playing in France etc available for England.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Makes it more obvious we need to allow players playing in France etc available for England.

That'll destroy the Prem. The French clubs will start targeting younger EQ players to get them JEFF qualified with the younger EQ players more likely to go for it knowing that it won't effect their ability to play internationally for England.

It'll make the cost of keeping players exorbitant for clubs. Currently the pay day for playing games for England is a good salary boost that encourages the big names to stay. Make that available to those playing overseas and we'll see half the squad in France and not available for training weeks outside of international windows etc with a further weakened Prem damaging player development.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Makes it more obvious we need to allow players playing in France etc available for England.

That'll destroy the Prem. The French clubs will start targeting younger EQ players to get them JEFF qualified with the younger EQ players more likely to go for it knowing that it won't effect their ability to play internationally for England.

It'll make the cost of keeping players exorbitant for clubs. Currently the pay day for playing games for England is a good salary boost that encourages the big names to stay. Make that available to those playing overseas and we'll see half the squad in France and not available for training weeks outside of international windows etc with a further weakened Prem damaging player development.

Simple solution to that. Players capped prior to moving abroad are eligible and those not capped are not.

There is no good reason to make players like Jack Willis and Henry Arundell ineligible for selection because there's not enough money in the Premiership to keep them in England.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Makes it more obvious we need to allow players playing in France etc available for England.

That'll destroy the Prem. The French clubs will start targeting younger EQ players to get them JEFF qualified with the younger EQ players more likely to go for it knowing that it won't effect their ability to play internationally for England.

It'll make the cost of keeping players exorbitant for clubs. Currently the pay day for playing games for England is a good salary boost that encourages the big names to stay. Make that available to those playing overseas and we'll see half the squad in France and not available for training weeks outside of international windows etc with a further weakened Prem damaging player development.

People who want to watch rugby will still go. People can also watch more French games. England shouldn't be tied to giving a leg up to the clubs.

Soul Requiem wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Makes it more obvious we need to allow players playing in France etc available for England.

That'll destroy the Prem. The French clubs will start targeting younger EQ players to get them JEFF qualified with the younger EQ players more likely to go for it knowing that it won't effect their ability to play internationally for England.

It'll make the cost of keeping players exorbitant for clubs. Currently the pay day for playing games for England is a good salary boost that encourages the big names to stay. Make that available to those playing overseas and we'll see half the squad in France and not available for training weeks outside of international windows etc with a further weakened Prem damaging player development.

Simple solution to that. Players capped prior to moving abroad are eligible and those not capped are not.

There is no good reason to make players like Jack Willis and Henry Arundell ineligible for selection because there's not enough money in the Premiership to keep them in England.

Jack Willis isn't good Enough for a full law change. Arundel isn't either...

Plenty to replace rhem...

This isn't about now. No one makes a difference at the moment obviously but for a little way down the road. The threat of Itoje being unavailable is enough to focus the rfus minds.

With several England players going to France and likelyhood of more going I'd be surprised if changes to laws were not made and yes I agree with 7.5 the prospect of losing Itoje might add weight to argument.

Regardless of who is available though they still have to play well enough to warrant selection and then of course actually be selected.

Even if all qualified players stayed in England there is still a long way to go to win tournaments.

Nah cant see it happening. Itoje is a good player but replaceable by many coming through.

Thats the view the RFU will look at it...

Ben Earl has knee ligament damage looks like he'll miss the start of the 6n maybe all.

Geordie wrote:Nah cant see it happening. Itoje is a good player but replaceable by many coming through.

Thats the view the RFU will look at it...

If it was just one player even of standing of Itoje maybe but if more Eng players depart for France then I'd be surprised if discussions were not held. It's not beyond realms of possibilty more clubs fold so if that happens then something will have to change.

Itoje is going down as an all time great for England and isn't past his best yet. Anyone can be replaced, but for him it will be for an inferior player. The only downside for the RFU is that the players won't be together as long ahead of some games, but if the prem is as bad as king suggests and likely to get worse then the balance is still better to pick your best team no matter where they play. Guys like Wilkinson and Abendonon have said that the change of culture etc etc improved them as players so why not take advantage of it, lean into it.

Maybe something like Australia...over a certain number of caps....but otherwise cant see it happening.

Why not? The balance of the pros and cons seems to be changing. The new deal with the PRL is coming up. The stars could align.

Nah cant see it happening.

Yeah you said. Why not?

Cant see it happening.

Ah, so you don't know. Fair enough.

I agree with Geordie. Not necessarily my thoughts, but this is why I think the RFU will not go for it.
1. This is major change - the RFU don't do change well.
2. This would be an admission the Premiership and Rugby in England is not as desirable as they think (Want? Expect?).
3. Would reduce the influence with how England players are coached.

1. True. But some don't thinknits a good change so tick!
2. Money. So kinda obvious.
3. That could be a very good thing.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah, so you don't know. Fair enough.

Your a very assuming individual arent you.

Not overly Geordie. Just asked you twice and you can't offer an answer.

or refusing to answer....different things.

Ah. So I just have to assume why.

Some interesting names in the latest group of under 18s


Lawrence Adediran (Leicester Tigers, Brooksby College)
Ben Agbenu (Northampton Saints, Bedford School)
Henry Bartlett (Bath Rugby, Beechen Cliff)
Rhys Beekmans (Newcastle Falcons, Gosforth ACE)
Jack Cotgreave (Gloucester Rugby, Hartpury College)
Ollie Davies (Sale Sharks, Kirkham Grammar) *
Tom Davis (Sale Sharks, St Mary's College, Crosby)
Joe Davis (Newcastle Falcons, Barnard Castle School)
Jack Dickens (Leicester Tigers, Trent College)
Josh Farley (Newcastle Falcons, Gosforth ACE)
Robert Gaffan (Northampton Saints, Rugby School)
Sam Graham (Newcastle Falcons, Durham School) *
Dom Hanson (Sale Sharks, Stockport Grammar) *
Patrick Hogg (Newcastle Falcons, Durham School)
Archie Hurford (Yorkshire Academy, Woodhouse Grove)
Callum Hyland Dugbo (Yorkshire Academy, Woodhouse Grove)
Seb Kelly (Sale Sharks, Kirkham Grammar)
Bronson Kingsley-Mellowes (Leicester Tigers, Brooksby College)
Jack Lightbown (Sale Sharks, The Sixth Form Bolton) *
Alfie Longstaff (Yorkshire Academy, Woodhouse Grove) *
Tubuna Maka (Leicester Tigers, Brooksby College)
Emosi Nabakeke (Midlands Central, Queen Ethelburga College)
Finn Newton (Saracens, Haileybury) *
Julian Nunn (Bath Rugby, Beechen Cliff)
Billy Pasco (Northampton Saints, Oundle School) *
Louie Platt (Yorkshire Academy, Mount St Marys) *
Fraser Rawlins (Saracens, Haileybury)
Oscar Rees (Midlands Central, Radley College)
Jake Roberts (Midlands Central, Rugby School)
Ethan Surrey (Midlands Central, City of Oxford College)
Sonny Tonga’uiha (Northampton Saints, Northampton School for Boys)
Connor Treacey (Bath Rugby, Beechen Cliff) *
Rafe Witheat (Northampton Saints, Stowe School)
*denotes a previously capped player at pathway level

ENGLAND U18 MEN’S SQUAD FOR BISHAM ABBEY CAMP (INCLUDES ACADEMY AND SCHOOL)

Tayo Adegbemile (Saracens, St Albans School) *
Olly Allport (Gloucester Rugby, Dean Close School)
Jonno Balding (Gloucester Rugby, Radley College)
Finn Bloomer (Saracens, Richard Hale School)
Jack Bracken (Saracens, St Albans School) *
Ronan Daniell (Harlequins, Hurstpierpoint College) *
Digby Eliot (Northampton Saints, Radley College)
Luke Evans (Exeter Chiefs, Exeter College)
Charlie Evered (Exeter Chiefs, Truro College)
Jed Findlay (Exeter Chiefs, Exeter College)
Lucas Friday (Harlequins, Trinity School) *
Charlie Griffin (Saracens, Harrow School) *
Deian Gwynne (Hartpury College)
Angus Hall (Saracens, The Judd School, Tonbridge) *
Finn Keylock (London & South Central Academy, Bishop Wand)
Nick Lilley (Exeter Chiefs, Exeter College) *
James Linegar (Bath Rugby, Kingswood School)
Josh Mann (Exeter Chiefs, Truro College)
Charlie Mason (Midlands Central, St Edwards School, Oxford) *
Jamie Miller (Harlequins, Whitgift School) *
Gethin O'Callaghan (Bristol Bears, Christ College Brecon)
Tyler Offiah (London & South Central Academy, Wellington College)
George Pearson (Midlands Central, City of Oxford College)
Josh Pengilly (Exeter Chiefs, Truro College)
Ted Phillips (Bristol Bears, Clifton College)
Zuko Robb (Harlequins, Gordons School, ACE)
Solomon Shand (Gloucester Rugby, Hartpury College) *
Jimmy Staples (Harlequins, Seaford College)
Ben Stevens-Woodmansey (Exeter Chiefs, Truro College)
Ollie Streeter (Harlequins, Gordon's School)
Kepueli Tuipulotu (London & South Central Academy, Harrow School) *
Ben Webb (Harlequins, Gordon's School)
Jonny Weimann (Northampton Saints, Bedford School)
Charlie West (Saracens, St Albans School) *
Toby Wilson (Sale Sharks, Kings Macclesfield) *
Sam Winters (London & South Central Academy, Harrow School)
Finlay Wiseman (London & South Central Academy, Hampton School) *

*denotes a previously capped player at pathway level


I hope Sonny is as good as his dad!

Hope Tyler Offiah has his Dad's pace and elusiveness...