England still winning the RWC at a canter - The quarter finals and beyond

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Carried on..............

And Quirke had a big impact today aswell....

Geordie wrote:13 is getting interesting...Lawrence,  Wil Joseph and Freeman

12..Manu back today played the full 80...haven't seen how Seb Atkinson went this weekend or if he played. And is Lawrence going to be moved to 12?

Dingwall is playing very well also...but is he even in the equation...

I really can't make my mind up on Dingwall. Made one nice pass for a try Vs Glasgow but was otherwise fairly anonymous. Yet Glasgow's attack wasn't in the game at all until he went off and then wasn't there to organise the defence.

Can we put him on the same bulk plan as Furbank and see if that makes a difference?

Geordie wrote:And after tonight's performance..just give the 10 shirt to Smith for the 6n.

I dunno, Marcus was very impressive over in Paris but Fin was fantastic up north of the border as well. If we're picking on form it's a shoot out between those two. Ford needs to step up, he seems to be stuck in third gear. Not playing badly but not really doing enough to stand out.

Ford was quite poor today. The replacement looked a step up. But. Is there much point in picking Marcus s then just asking him to kick the ball?

Have to say, I think Ibitoye has matured hugely at Bristol. At Quins he was like a bulkier Wade: relied far too much on his speed and didn’t work hard enough off the ball or in defence. He looks a much more rounded player - the try he created by beating one defender, drawing two and then offloading to the fullback was a thing of beauty.

For Quins, I’d say Launchbury, Riley, CCS and Porter are also all adding a lot in addition to the ones named above. Porter’s worth watching as he seems to be maturing into a good game manager but still someone who works well with the general pattern of Quinsanity. A calmer version of Care is something England ought to be interested in…

Poorfour wrote:Have to say, I think Ibitoye has matured hugely at Bristol. At Quins he was like a bulkier Wade: relied far too much on his speed and didn’t work hard enough off the ball or in defence. He looks a much more rounded player - the try he created by beating one defender, drawing two and then offloading to the fullback was a thing of beauty.

For Quins, I’d say Launchbury, Riley, CCS and Porter are also all adding a lot in addition to the ones named above. Porter’s worth watching as he seems to be maturing into a good game manager but still someone who works well with the general pattern of Quinsanity. A calmer version of Care is something England ought to be interested in…

CCS is interesting. He'll not get much 8 time with Dombrandt there. But could he be the physical 6 with lineout option also?

Or is he an A game consideration?

Barbeary is suddenly back in contention for a spot aswell.

Evans, CCS and Dombrandt have been going well as a 6, 7, 8 combination, though I doubt England would consider them as a unit. .

Problem with someone like Arundel is that we get a bit spoilt when he runs in a hatfull of tries from his own 22 so we complain when he doesn't. Obviously areas to work on but worth remembering that he's not going to do his thing every week.

It'll always happen. Which England game was it when Smith came on, didn't create a try in his one touch and was criticised?

For me the games this weekend demonstrated that even these criticised players can actually play pretty well when your tactics look to get the best out of them rather than be afraid that you may make a mistake. Tuilagi suddenly looking the player of old, 2 good tackles denying tries. But he got more touches in that first half than he got in the entire WC!

I'm hoping both Barbeary and C-CS get in wider England sqaud at least for 6N vying for no8 spot, either be a vast improvement on Billy.

As for 10 shirt, can see Borthwick going with Ford with Smith M on bench to cover 10/15.

Some rumours that Itoje will turn down the hybrid contract and move to France....

Blimey, that'll put cat among pigeons!

The combination of injuries, retirements, overseas contracts and players making themselves unavailable is going to make for a very different looking England squad for the 6N, whichever way you cut it. That’s coupled with changes in the coaching staff, a pretty benign match schedule and the start of a new RWC cycle where Borthwick has a reasonable amount of credit in the bank.

And yet people mostly seem to think he’s going to be very conservative in both selection and tactics. I’m not so sure. I think that at the very least he’ll be looking at the level of experience the squad will need in 4 years’ time and bringing through the players who will need game time to get there, and that we’ll see some new and (I hope) more creative attacking patterns coming into play, because the draw for RWC 2027 is unlikely to leave England in a position where they can progress the way they did in 2023.

Geordie wrote:Some rumours that Itoje will turn down the hybrid contract and move to France....

Still young but with a lot of miles. Not altogether a bad thing if it helps to sustain a longer career, although bad for England in the short term. The question is obviously of the ones who go how many will come back?

Hes back at top form...so he would be a big miss...however as Poorfour says ...start of a new cycle, some big young guys coming through...another of whom (Ben Bamber) started for Sale on Saturday...so a good tome to rebuild.

One of the key things that led Jones astray was his sole focus on the WC. Borthwick did express that that wouldn't happen on his watch if it was to the detriment of 6Ns etc. He needs a good 6 nations, which for this team would be winning the first 2 games.

How far will Borthwick move from the pretty standard set of tactics he's used during his stint as a head coach then poorfour? Bit of a risk from him having never implemented it before.

No 7&1/2 wrote:One of the key things that led Jones astray was his sole focus on the WC. Borthwick did express that that wouldn't happen on his watch if it was to the detriment of 6Ns etc. He needs a good 6 nations, which for this team would be winning the first 2 games.

I actually agree...the World Cup is huge, but the 6n is equally as important in my eyes.

SB needs to reset with the squad he feels is right...a nice mix of experience and youth and should then continue to simply focus on the next set of games...and continue to build the style and tactics of the squad. Evolving as it goes....

Indeed. Really exciting times.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Indeed. Really exciting times.

Not sure it'll be exciting...efficient might be more of the word....

Thats the real dream. Nothing like being able to say after a sports game; it was efficient.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thats the real dream. Nothing like being able to say after a sports game; it was efficient.

"Efficient" is only a step or two removed from "clinical", and most people would celebrate a clinical performance.

Depends if its as boring as he's delivered so far.

When does the squad Actually get picked?

Must be around 9th to 16 th Jan

16th January last season, GF. The Monday after the penultimate round of European fixtures. They then meet the following week after the final European group round. Which gives them 2 weeks in camp, with it up to the England coaches whether they release the players for game time in the Prem fixtures the week before the first round of the Six Nations. The same Monday this year would be the 15th Jan. That's been fairly standard for England for a bit now.

There's no limits on training numbers or changes in the Six Nations though. All squads tend to be either very big to start or have lots of players come and go. Or both - France named 42 initially last year and called up a further 13 during the tournament! England named a 36-man squad and called up 12 more in total. Ireland an initial 37-man squad, called up 9. Italy, 34 initial, 9 called up. Scotland, 40 initial, 3 call ups. Wales, 37 initial, 1 call up.

Generally there are an absolute ton of players looked at in training by all nations across the Six Nations for a while now. As such I look forward to the inevitable and high quality debate on here about whether Borthwick is confused, indecisive or maybe even has Alzheimer's when he makes the first change to the initial squad. No other coach has ever consider doing it after all.

With Arundell electing to stay in France, most people have said "fair play". However, n the BBC podcast, Ashton and Monye both think it's the wrong move for a young player. They say he needs to play Test match rugby now, rather than hope to do so later. Ironically, their advice about getting regular playing time might be one of his reasons for staying.

Another podcast pointed out Arundell has actually played very few games of professional rugby. The experience of turning out for Racing at full back, which is apparently his preferred position, might have tipped the balance. Lancaster also has a good reputation for player development, which would have been a selling point.

Are the thoughts of Monye and Ashton coloured by the fact they think Arundell should/would be selected though? There's no guarantee on selection as we saw for the wc. Then a choice of more money and playing under Ashton is a relatively easy choice.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Are the thoughts of Monye and Ashton coloured by the fact they think Arundell should/would be selected though? There's no guarantee on selection as we saw for the wc...

Arundell was only one of two players to be offered a hybrid RFU deal. There'll be 25 contracts, so not every player in the England squad will be on one. While we don't know exactly how the offers are decided, there'd be little point in contracting a player if the coach had no plans to pick him.

For me, he's absolutely done the right thing for his development. He'll get a lot of games at a decent standard under his belt in France under a coach with a track record of being very good at developing talent.

Whilst a hybrid contract does seem to have been on the table, he still feels very much like a plan B for England. Someone to throw on late if you're behind if he makes the 23 at all. England have better wings for the gameplan Borthwick wants to play and Steward is always going to be preferred at 15. Ironically his England experience so far has probably held him back a little. He's spent a huge amount of time in training squads, playing very little rugby.

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Are the thoughts of Monye and Ashton coloured by the fact they think Arundell should/would be selected though? There's no guarantee on selection as we saw for the wc...

Arundell was only one of two players to be offered a hybrid RFU deal. There'll be 25 contracts, so not every player in the England squad will be on one. While we don't know exactly how the offers are decided, there'd be little point in contracting a player if the coach had no plans to pick him.

We know very little of the details though, and given how he's been used so far there are enough doubts to err on the side of a guaranteed offer at a club where you're already playing.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Are the thoughts of Monye and Ashton coloured by the fact they think Arundell should/would be selected though? There's no guarantee on selection as we saw for the wc...

Arundell was only one of two players to be offered a hybrid RFU deal. There'll be 25 contracts, so not every player in the England squad will be on one. While we don't know exactly how the offers are decided, there'd be little point in contracting a player if the coach had no plans to pick him.

We know very little of the details though, and given how he's been used so far there are enough doubts to err on the side of a guaranteed offer at a club where you're already playing.

Arundell was sufficiently confident of selection, that it came as an unwelcome surprise when the RFU changed their minds about the Six Nations. He was under the impression - as we all were - that he would be considered for the 2024 tournament regardless of what he decided to do next season.

You would be annoyed with the change in stance for this 6 nations but that still doesn't mean he thinks he's going to be in Borthwicks team. You surprised he's seriously considering staying in France?

No 7&1/2 wrote:You would be annoyed with the change in stance for this 6 nations but that still doesn't mean he thinks he's going to be in Borthwicks team. You surprised he's seriously considering staying in France?

No other than the man himself and Borthwick etc know exactly what made him decide to go and stay in France but my thoughts are he's probably a bit disillusioned with how things are in Eng set up and his chances of being in team so went for money and experience. If he really thought he'd be in 6N squad and on then he surely would stay in England. He would definitely be in first 15 for any English club, or if not every game then in match 23 every week.

mountain man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You would be annoyed with the change in stance for this 6 nations but that still doesn't mean he thinks he's going to be in Borthwicks team. You surprised he's seriously considering staying in France?

No other than the man himself and Borthwick etc know exactly what made him decide to go and stay in France but my thoughts are he's probably a bit disillusioned with how things are in Eng set up and his chances of being in team so went for money and experience. If he really thought he'd be in 6N squad and on then he surely would stay in England. He would definitely be in first 15 for any English club, or if not every game then in match 23 every week.

By all accounts he's taken less money in France than the combined Bath/RFU Hybrid offer. He'll get much more pitch time in France too with the longer season and not being in and out of international training camps, assuming he stays in favour selection wise with Lancaster.

He'd get as much time on pitch for an English club don't you think? I suspect(I along with everyone else don't actually know) that the fact he wouldn't be in Int training is main reason for decision.

He'd likely get more in France with the 8 additional league games in a season.

Being offered a hybrid contract is a pretty good indication he'd be involved in Eng training squads imo. Like you say though. We'll not know for sure now.

Maybe but I'm looking at it from the perspective of why would someone who is trying to break into and establish an Int career potentially jeopardise it by effectively ruling himself out given uncertainty of ruling changes. Anyway, I guess we wait and see. He's just one player, I'm keen to see who gets into Eng squad when it is announced.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You surprised he's seriously considering staying in France?

Not at all surprised. However, I don't think it hinges on how Arundell sees his immediate England prospects.

It is very traumatic to go through a bankruptcy. Overnight, your world is turned upside down. Attention always goes to older players, with families and mortgages but younger players are also all at sea. They have just found their way at a club, and now have to go and do it all again. Not everyone is a natural jobhopper. Having found a warm welcome, and financial security, at Racing, it's easy to understand how Arundell might want a bit of stability in what is still a very limited professional career. He's only just uprooted, and may not have the appetite to do it again so soon.

mountain man wrote:Maybe but I'm looking at it from the perspective of why would someone who is trying to break into and establish an Int career potentially jeopardise it by effectively ruling himself out given uncertainty of ruling changes. Anyway, I guess we wait and see. He's just one player, I'm keen to see who gets into Eng squad when it is announced.

He seems a pretty mature kid. I'd assume he's looking beyond picking up international caps and at where he'd actually enjoy playing/living and where he believes his game will develop best.

He may well end up disappearing into relative obscurity (compared to the early promise) or he may reappear on the England scene as a world class player in three years, but I can understand why he might make that call.

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You surprised he's seriously considering staying in France?

Not at all surprised. However, I don't think it hinges on how Arundell sees his immediate England prospects.

It is very traumatic to go through a bankruptcy. Overnight, your world is turned upside down. Attention always goes to older players, with families and mortgages but younger players are also all at sea. They have just found their way at a club, and now have to go and do it all again. Not everyone is a natural jobhopper. Having found a warm welcome, and financial security, at Racing, it's easy to understand how Arundell might want a bit of stability in what is still a very limited professional career. He's only just uprooted, and may not have the appetite to do it again so soon.

Good post. It's also a chance for a young man with the world at his feet to travel. Plus the Top 14 is a very good standard overall to be learning in.

He was recalled the moment he was fit for the Six Nations. Then looked locked into the RWC squad from the start. He'd seemingly overtaken Malins in selection from the Ireland game onwards. Then May has retired. Plus Daly may well end up at 13 in the Six Nations with Marchant at Stade. He was in very good shape to play in the Six Nations and is clearly rated. Considering his first start on the wing at professional level was against Ireland, hence there are understandable positioning issues there, he's had good exposure really.

I don't really understand why Willis was available for the RWC having signed a second contract at Toulouse but Arundell isn't for the Six Nations having signed a second contract at Racing. It feels like the RFU and PRL trying to fire a warning shot. Which seems foolish considering they aren't holding many cards. In fact, the cards PRL have are in a collapsing house. Bringing a water pistol to the Somme comes to mind.

Maybe a bit of uncertainty that for once people aren't being put off moving abroad hence trying to force peoples hand?

Was a pretty odd intervention from the RFU. Whatever you think of whether he should be 6n eligible or not, saying one thing a few months ago, then reversing it now doesn't seem like the way to go about things.

It's a scenario that will only be repeated if another club goes pop, so hopefully (!) not one they will see again in the near future.

I think that's exactly why. Arundell is one of England's hottest prospects in years, they're trying to fire a warning shot across the players bow. I just don't think it's a good time to do it. Previously the play in the Prem to play for England rule was from a position of strength. The Prem was a decent league, had 13 properly pro teams, most games mattered, wages were largely on par with France. Then England payments were huge. Whilst other leagues have gained strength the Prem has declined to a 10 team league, with 9 competitive teams, a lot of nothing games, poor finances. Bluffing only works if you sometimes hold the cards. I'm not sure they are holding many cards currently.

I'd be open to them dropping the rule for a specified period such as 2 or 3 years whilst they restructure and rebuild the leagues. Then reassess. In order to do that you need to restructure and rebuild. Which means admitting there's a problem. Whereas I actually think the RFU are pretty happy with the Prem weakening as it strengthens their bartering position in the club v country battle. Whilst PRL seem content with the leagues below them being trashed as it keeps the drawbridge up. Why go to the effort of being in Premiership by being a premier club when you can stay by idly as everything beneath you gets napalmed, then stay at the top table by virtue of continuing to exist. An excellent system.

It's just a mess. The RFU are overseeing too much and aren't really looking after any of it. Then there's PRL and the Championship as separate entities. Then the amateur game is pretty rudderless.

NLR are the only body that the clubs within it seem broadly happy with. That's because they're dealing with a remit that makes sense. The national leagues just below the pro level but above the community level.

As said many times I'd really like a model of... One board for England, Prem and Championship. NLR for the semi pro national leagues as currently. Then a separate board for the amateur game. Each would then have a remit that makes sense.

In France you have Top 14 and ProD2 which are governed by all clubs voting as equal participants depending on who is currently in the leagues. The FFR then runs Nationale 1 & 2, Federale 1 - which are pro to semi pro leagues. Then the amateur leagues are run more locally. As there is promotion and relegation throughout you don't get each of the systems not giving a s**t about the others though. They understand that the whole things needs to thrive for them to thrive.

Whereas the RFU care about the England team for the revenue produced. PRL and P-share clubs care about the Prem. The Championship are in a deserted limbo. Then the amateur game is a mess. I struggle to see how it changes without a proper overhaul of governance across the game.

Confirmed by Racing that Arundell has signed a deal until 2026.

Rfu can't really back down now after their power stance. Then Scotland and Wales will be going after him for the next wc. The last thing we could see from him in England colours is trudging off the field after getting no ball in a 3rd place play off.

He's just turned 21. I'd put much more money on him playing for England many more times. On the bright side he's at a good team and playing in the right league to develop. Lancaster is also a coach who has generally nurtured young talent well. Competing with Spring at FB. Learning from stalwarts like Imhoff as a winger. Playing outside Fickou, Tuisova and Saili. Nolan la Garrec is an incredible talent at 9 to play outside of too. Kolisi and Woki in the pack. It's a good place for a young outside back to be. It's just very frustrating he wont be available in the immediate future.

May is retired. Marchant and Arundell in France. There are chances in the outside backs. Cokanasiga got a shot against Wales in the warmups and forget his hands. Murley and Freeman were in the training squads leading into the warmups. Roebuck keeps impressing.

Results this weekend wouldn't suggest the prem is that Weak though KC...

Put a long post up on the Champions Cup thread with my views on it, GF.

I think the Quins victory was a terrific performance. Nothing taking away from that. When Quins put it together they can be fantastic and have been capable of that for a while. They are also fallible though as Pourfour points out. The Sarries pumping being a good example.

Tigers, Sale and Bristol were playing heavily rotated sides. Stormers and Stade almost farcically so given it's the Champions Cup.

Glasgow also weren't at full strength. A significant proportion of their Scotland players missing. Saints weren't at full strength in the second and back row either though. Taken in context of their win away at Sarries the week before it's a couple of strong wins for Saints.

The issue with the convoluted group stage is that 2 wins can realistically get teams through to the last 16. So you see this sort of rotation on the road. Ulster qualified for the KOs with 1 win last season, which is nonsense really. I do think there's a chance that fewer Prem games might mean that the English sides rotate less from home, more make the last 16. I'd be very surprised if they got anywhere in the KOs. We've had one semi-finalist since covid and ringfencing. Exeter got very easily put away by La Rochelle in that season. The other quarter-finalists in that time have been soundly beaten. The closest another QF has come was Leinster 23 -14 Tigers in '21/22. Even that comfortable score line flatters Tigers though. Leinster won that game in the first half at a stroll. They were 20 points up at the break, went back into second gear, made some early subs, Tigers outscored them in the second half but Leinster never looked under pressure for the match. Tigers won the Prem that season as well.

Worth listening to Jonny May on last week's "Good Bad & the Rugby " podcast (dated December the 6th).

Quickly becomes apparent May is a single-minded professional about fitness, training, and trying to improve his game. Easy to see why coaches liked him. May credits Eddie Jones with getting the best out of him, though Jones was hard on him at the start. May does say that he saw how Jones's approach didn't work with some other players.

At the England World Cup camp, Borthwick said Watson, Steward and Daly were his preferred back three. He then listed Cokanasiga for power, Malins as a match for Daly, Arundell for X factor, and then May himself at seventh. May was so disappointed, he wanted to leave the camp, and go back to his son. However, Borthwick explained he saw May as a starting winger, so would actually be next in line, in the event of a starting injury. Which is what happened.

May reckons both LRZ and Arundell are faster than he was at his peak.

May describes the "Verona Group" of senior players at the last World Cup, and says they played a big part in getting the team on the right path after those painful warm-ups. He named himself, Ben Youngs, Daly, Lawes, Itoje, Manu, Genge, Cole, Marler, George, Ford and Farrell. Including May, five of that group won't be in the 2024 Six Nations squad.

May is close friends with George Ford. he says Ford, whether starting or not, has a huge impact on the running of any squad he's in.

Asked to name the best captain he played under, May said the England environment was at its best when Dylan Hartley was captain. With Hartley up front, other senior players were left to get on with their roles. Ford managing attack, Haskell contributing to the breakdown, Farrell defence etc, and no player took on too much (though Hartley got worn out by the experience).

Presenter Alex Payne said he wishes May had shown more of this side of his character while playing for England, because the sport needs more characters. May replied he had deliberately kept himself private, to avoid unnecessary grief. He praised Wigglesworth for arranging "Social Media Monday" during the World Cup camps, where the squad would llaugh at critical press and social media coverage, to get it out of their system. It did seem at times like the players adopted a Millwall stance during the tournament.

Interesting that. 'May describes the "Verona Group" of senior players at the last World Cup, and says they played a big part in getting the team on the right path after those painful warm-ups. ' I'd say the teams we played had more to do with it than any improvement.

'He praised Wigglesworth for arranging "Social Media Monday" during the World Cup camps, where the squad would laugh at critical press and social media coverage, to get it out of their system. It did seem at times like the players adopted a Millwall stance during the tournament.' And yes it was very much evident that they were all singing from the same hymn sheet of proving people wrong and thinking they were on the right track while doing not much special. Hope they shake that off and Wigglesworth starts doing something about the attack. Wonder if he was showing the criticism on Farrell too which has led to him stepping away?

I used to watch Good Bad and the Rugby but I just found all three so annoying, even Tindall although he was better of them. Haskell as expected is just full on 100% and Payne rather smug.

Only rugby pods I regularly listen to now is the BBC Rugby weekly/daily and Flats and Shanks.