Irish Provincial teams for next year

First topic message reminder :

Genuinely interested on how Leinster and Munster will shape up over the coming year.
Thinking specifically what the teams will be during the Wc, what they will be after and what they will be at the end.

Below I have listed Ulster with a / being a position I am uncertain over:

15 - Payne, Payne, Payne
11 - Spence, Trimble, Trimble
13 - Cave, Cave/Spence, Cave/Spence
12 - Marshall, Wallace, Wallace/Marshall
11 - Gilroy, Danielli/Gilroy, Gilroy
10 - Humphreys, Humphreys, Humphreys
9 - Marshall, Pienaer, Pienaer
1 - McAllister, Court, McAllister/Court
2 - Kyriacou, Best, Best
3 - Fitzpatrick, Afoa, Afoa
4 - Muller, Muller, Muller
5 - Tuohy, Tuohy/Stevenson, Tuohy/Stevenson
6 - Henry, Ferris, Ferris
7 - Faloon, Faloon/Henry, Faloon/Henry
8 - Wannenberg, Wannenberg, Wannenberg

Assuming predictable WC squad selections i.e. no bolters
As you can see I reckon 2 internationals are Wallace and Court will be fighting to hold on to their provincial spot by the end of the season and that 1 Danielli will not make the team

MBTGOG wrote:

The point I'm making with all those height stats is that 6'6" is now considered a tad on the small size for an interntional lock.

Who considers 6'6 as "a tad on the small size" apart from you?

Does it matter who thinks it?

All you have to do is look at the average height of international locks and Brad Thorn & Nathan Hines (both getting on now) are probably the only two under 6'6". Hines seems to be 3rd choice lock for Scotland now - and he is very, very good around the park.

Hines is 6'7"

If you time the lift right and have a decent thrower anywhere from 6'5" and up should be alright.

MBTGOG wrote:Hines is 6'7"

Thought he was only 6'5". So Brad Thorn is the only international Lock who is under 6'6" then?

Romain Millo-Chluski, Lionel Nallet

MBTGOG wrote:Romain Millo-Chluski, Lionel Nallet

Both getting to the end of their careers and its not as if France bothered much using their lineout. Remember all those lineouts that Leo Cullen stole when Ireland played them two 6Ns ago.

Chluski is only 28.

Sin,

What about all the locks who are 6'6 who you say are a tad small?

Dean Mumm.

Why does coming to the end of their careers affect whether or not their height is an issue? If it wasn't an issue earlier in their career and isn't now...

I think you are guilty of over-focusing on one area of the lineout. The call, the lift, the timing, the throw, the jumper and his ability to win the ball under pressure and offload it successfully. All are important. It's not an issue of who is the tallest. A good lineout lock doesn't rely on his height; height might give him an edge, but it's seldom the winning and losing of games.

And I think the examples given like Ireland vs France and Ireland vs Scotland are actually more a case of an intelligently run defensive lineout which has outsmarted the opposition rather than a battle won purely on height

Reading back. Height is helpful but there is way more too it than that. 6 foot 5 inches is fine.

Oh and the usual "Declan Kidney is Munster biased" boo hoo hoo tripe that gets rolled out.

"What about all the locks who are 6'6 who you say are a tad small?"

The trend is that locks are all getting taller and its going to make it more difficult to compete in the lineout for 6'6"ers.

Munn hasn't started a test match for Australia in over a year. James Horwell (6'7") & Rob Simmons (6'7") started last week against SA.

Chlusky has 6 caps - he got his first one 6 year ago.

I may of been a bit over the top stag but to be honest you can see Munster favouritism in some of his selections. For example the whole fiasco that is Tony Buckley, whoever is responsible for putting so much time and effort into trying to turn him into a good prop really should be sacked. That includes constantly picking him ahead of Mike Ross.

On the subject of 6'5, is 6'5 too big for a prop given that these days shorter props seem to have the advantage in the scrums?

red_stag wrote:Reading back. Height is helpful but there is way more too it than that. 6 foot 5 inches is fine.

Oh and the usual "Declan Kidney is Munster biased" boo hoo hoo tripe that gets rolled out.

I agree, there is a lot more to it than height - look at Devin Toner!.

The average height of a lock is getting to be 6'7"/6'8". Its just making it a bit harder if you are giving your opposition 2-3 inches straight off.

I'm sure you agree that Mick O'Driscoll is a very good lock at club level, yet he would not be classed as an international standard lock.

Possibly, but again its just one part of the scrum and you can't over focus on one element. I think a tall prop has to work so much harder on his technique because your back can get arched and then thats not very effective in terms of pushing.

Hayes at his best, later in his career, did have an effective technique without ever being a dominant, attacking tighthead imo. Buckley has never really gotten his together.

Sin é wrote:I'm sure you agree that Mick O'Driscoll is a very good lock at club level, yet he would not be classed as an international standard lock.

For a multitude of reasons though, Sin. I don't have any problem with his lineout work; not why I wouldn't pick him!

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:Reading back. Height is helpful but there is way more too it than that. 6 foot 5 inches is fine.

Oh and the usual "Declan Kidney is Munster biased" boo hoo hoo tripe that gets rolled out.

I agree, there is a lot more to it than height - look at Devin Toner!.

The average height of a lock is getting to be 6'7"/6'8". Its just making it a bit harder if you are giving your opposition 2-3 inches straight off.

I'm sure you agree that Mick O'Driscoll is a very good lock at club level, yet he would not be classed as an international standard lock.

A couple of inches really makes no difference given the height they are at in the air. Also think about it like this - which would be better a 6'6 lock being lifted by a 6'4 prop, or a 6'8 lock being lifted by a 6'0 prop??

You're talking an inch or two at the end of the day. Technique and timing in the lineout is much more important.

Artful_Dodger wrote:I may of been a bit over the top stag but to be honest you can see Munster favouritism in some of his selections. For example the whole fiasco that is Tony Buckley, whoever is responsible for putting so much time and effort into trying to turn him into a good prop really should be sacked. That includes constantly picking him ahead of Mike Ross.

On the subject of 6'5, is 6'5 too big for a prop given that these days shorter props seem to have the advantage in the scrums?

For the record, Ross was encouraged to come back to play for one of the Irish provinces by Kidney. When he did come back he couldn't get a game at his club. How do you expect Kidney to select Ross when he wasn't getting gametime with his club? And the only reason why he got gametime with his club was because Stan Wright got injured.

And it certainly was some Munster/Buckley favouritism that, after a very good tour to the SH last year, his contract was cut back and he was let leave Munster, which actually sees Munster to be very short on THs this season. Munster is sunk if anything happens to Botha.

I would be very surprised if the average height of locks is 6'7/8.

More likely between 6'6 and 6'7.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Sin é wrote:

red_stag wrote:Reading back. Height is helpful but there is way more too it than that. 6 foot 5 inches is fine.

Oh and the usual "Declan Kidney is Munster biased" boo hoo hoo tripe that gets rolled out.

I agree, there is a lot more to it than height - look at Devin Toner!.

The average height of a lock is getting to be 6'7"/6'8". Its just making it a bit harder if you are giving your opposition 2-3 inches straight off.

I'm sure you agree that Mick O'Driscoll is a very good lock at club level, yet he would not be classed as an international standard lock.

A couple of inches really makes no difference given the height they are at in the air. Also think about it like this - which would be better a 6'6 lock being lifted by a 6'4 prop, or a 6'8 lock being lifted by a 6'0 prop??

You're talking an inch or two at the end of the day. Technique and timing in the lineout is much more important.

All the technique etc. in the world will never be as good as having the extra couple of inches stretch.

Look at photo 15 here. Varley (who isn't exactly great a throwing into the lineout) can throw the ball into the lineout that bit heigher to avoid to Leo Cullen who is a very good lineout operator (and 6'6"). See how close Cullen is to getting it. There is only an inch in whether Cullen stole that lineout.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/9095.php

Photo 15.

Sin,

That is an underthrown line out.

What that photo does show is what part arm span can play, so even if someone is 6'5, they might have a greater reach than someone who is 6'7 which would combat the height difference.

I've got to say, that does look like an underthrow. He's taking that at eye level and not above his head. Should be more height on that throw.

MBTGOG wrote:I would be very surprised if the average height of locks is 6'7/8.

More likely between 6'6 and 6'7.

I posted that the average height of a lock is getting to be 6'7/8.

Lawes 6'7"
Richie Grey 6'10"
Alastair Kellock 6'8"
Bakkies Botha 6'7.5"
Ali Williams 6'8"
Sam Whitelock 6'8" (both those started for the ABs today against SA).
Muller is 6'7"
Lund 6'8"

MBTGOG wrote:What that photo does show is what part arm span can play, so even if someone is 6'5, they might have a greater reach than someone who is 6'7 which would combat the height difference.

Chances are that someone who is 6'7" will have a greater arm reach than someone who is 6'5".

Notch wrote:I've got to say, that does look like an underthrow. He's taking that at eye level and not above his head. Should be more height on that throw.

I don't know about that - Flannery throws the ball very fast and low (and why he is considered to be very good at lineout throwing).

You tailor this to the situation. When you have a Cullen lurking there you need to make sure the ball is going to reach the intended target. He's taking that ball very low in the air. It's a question of reaching the lock at the wrong point in the throws trajectory.

Sin that photo to me shows that timing is what gave Ryan the advantage in collecting that ball (in spite of an obvious under-throw). Hines and Heaslip haven't got their arms locked out so Cullen is a good few inches below the ball, in contrast POC and the other lifters arms are locked out and Ryan is soaring and claims the ball.
If Ryan was a fraction of a second slower off the ground it would have been a fairer contest (all lifters with locked out arms).
Their inch or two height difference doesn't even come into it here.

Notch wrote:Why does coming to the end of their careers affect whether or not their height is an issue? If it wasn't an issue earlier in their career and isn't now...

I think you are guilty of over-focusing on one area of the lineout. The call, the lift, the timing, the throw, the jumper and his ability to win the ball under pressure and offload it successfully. All are important. It's not an issue of who is the tallest. A good lineout lock doesn't rely on his height; height might give him an edge, but it's seldom the winning and losing of games.

And I think the examples given like Ireland vs France and Ireland vs Scotland are actually more a case of an intelligently run defensive lineout which has outsmarted the opposition rather than a battle won purely on height

Not sure this height thing is as big a deal as its being made out to be. That being said I wouldn't want a lock any smaller than 6'5", anything less than that would be quite strange.

I think Tuohy is pretty ok in the lineout, he is an animal in the loose too so that is pretty helpful. In the future I can see the Irish pack being

Healy-Best/strauss/Cronin-Ross
Ryan-Tuohy
Ferris-Heaslip-SOB

Even if Tuohy isn't that great in the lineout there are others there that are.

I think most people have said it already, there are lots of elements to a good lineout
good thrower
timing
tall locks
tall lifters
speed of getting into the air


many more. I think Tuohy should have been included in the 50man squad for experience but not the 30 for the RWC.

Apologies for changing topic here but...this does seem bad news.....

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/darcys-world-cup-prospects-look-bleak-after-ankle-surgery-2836109.html

Sin é wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:I would be very surprised if the average height of locks is 6'7/8.

More likely between 6'6 and 6'7.

I posted that the average height of a lock is getting to be 6'7/8.

Lawes 6'7"
Richie Grey 6'10"
Alastair Kellock 6'8"
Bakkies Botha 6'7.5"
Ali Williams 6'8"
Sam Whitelock 6'8" (both those started for the ABs today against SA).
Muller is 6'7"
Lua lot nd 6'8"

I agree with my old chum Sin actually. The teams with the betters lineout have at least 3 lineout jumpers over 6'5 and lot of the modern locks are > 6'7.

6'5 isn't too small for an International lock but certainly if you had two locks under 6'6 then I think you would struggle. At the minute we have two 6'6 locks and none of our backrows are over 6'4. That already puts us at a bit off a disadvantage against some teams and puts a lot of pressure on our throwers. POC is such a phenomenal athlete which compensates to a point and having John Hayes as a lifter helped us get a few extra inches. Having Ferris at the back definitely gives us more options than with O'Brien and Wallace on the flanks.

Like Notch says it's about balance but I think if you are going to play a 6'5 lock then you need a taller 2nd row partner and at least one lineout option in the backrow.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:I would be very surprised if the average height of locks is 6'7/8.

More likely between 6'6 and 6'7.

I posted that the average height of a lock is getting to be 6'7/8.

Lawes 6'7"
Richie Grey 6'10"
Alastair Kellock 6'8"
Bakkies Botha 6'7.5"
Ali Williams 6'8"
Sam Whitelock 6'8" (both those started for the ABs today against SA).
Muller is 6'7"
Lua lot nd 6'8"

I agree with my old chum Sin actually. The teams with the betters lineout have at least 3 lineout jumpers over 6'5 and lot of the modern locks are > 6'7.

6'5 isn't too small for an International lock but certainly if you had two locks under 6'6 then I think you would struggle. At the minute we have two 6'6 locks and none of our backrows are over 6'4. That already puts us at a bit off a disadvantage against some teams and puts a lot of pressure on our throwers. POC is such a phenomenal athlete which compensates to a point and having John Hayes as a lifter helped us get a few extra inches. Having Ferris at the back definitely gives us more options than with O'Brien and Wallace on the flanks.

Like Notch says it's about balance but I think if you are going to play a 6'5 lock then you need a taller 2nd row partner and at least one lineout option in the backrow.

I'm gonna to have to go for a lie down

Feagh McHugh wrote:Sin that photo to me shows that timing is what gave Ryan the advantage in collecting that ball (in spite of an obvious under-throw). Hines and Heaslip haven't got their arms locked out so Cullen is a good few inches below the ball, in contrast POC and the other lifters arms are locked out and Ryan is soaring and claims the ball.
If Ryan was a fraction of a second slower off the ground it would have been a fairer contest (all lifters with locked out arms).
Their inch or two height difference doesn't even come into it here.

Nathan Hines is an inch taller than POC, so that compensates for POC's arms being locked out, and Hines arms not so.

Ryan & Hines are same height. POC & Cullen are both 6'6".

Rodders makes a very valid point about POC's athleticism. DOC usually gets a bit of stick for not doing better in the lineout. Cullen reads the lineout very well which makes him a very good operator. The London Irish duo of Casey & Kennedy (both 6'8") put it up to the Leinster lineout though a few years ago in the Heineken Cup. In fact, that lineout put it up to POC & DOC as well.

Sin é wrote:

I'm gonna to have to go for a lie down

Great minds think alike sin ....