Irish Provincial teams for next year

First topic message reminder :

Genuinely interested on how Leinster and Munster will shape up over the coming year.
Thinking specifically what the teams will be during the Wc, what they will be after and what they will be at the end.

Below I have listed Ulster with a / being a position I am uncertain over:

15 - Payne, Payne, Payne
11 - Spence, Trimble, Trimble
13 - Cave, Cave/Spence, Cave/Spence
12 - Marshall, Wallace, Wallace/Marshall
11 - Gilroy, Danielli/Gilroy, Gilroy
10 - Humphreys, Humphreys, Humphreys
9 - Marshall, Pienaer, Pienaer
1 - McAllister, Court, McAllister/Court
2 - Kyriacou, Best, Best
3 - Fitzpatrick, Afoa, Afoa
4 - Muller, Muller, Muller
5 - Tuohy, Tuohy/Stevenson, Tuohy/Stevenson
6 - Henry, Ferris, Ferris
7 - Faloon, Faloon/Henry, Faloon/Henry
8 - Wannenberg, Wannenberg, Wannenberg

Assuming predictable WC squad selections i.e. no bolters
As you can see I reckon 2 internationals are Wallace and Court will be fighting to hold on to their provincial spot by the end of the season and that 1 Danielli will not make the team

right i shouldn't even be talking about full backsi will talk about what i know front rows

vdm strauss and hagan under feeks instruction and a few months together could be a formidable front row and the way i see it if hagan can get a good run and sum good training with feek he could sneek ahead of ross, cause after the world cup ross' worth goes down a bit in my book.

i think ulster and munster have both improved there packs and there scrums aswell, munster needed a tighthead and for me ulster needed a monster, there pack have been aggressive and have fronted up brilliantly but other then ferris they had nothing to put a bit of fear in the opposition and a 20stone new zealand international who can play rugby and scrummage will be massive for them, i really can't wait to see him on a cold winters night in ravenhill in a h cup game

red_stag wrote:Indeed. Eoin Reddan, Conor Murray, Tomas O'Leary, Peter Stringer, Frank Murphy are all Munster produced.

At what point does a player go from being 'from' somewhere to being 'produced' by that area?

For example, Connacht, Wasps and Leinster have been instrumental in the rugby development of Reddan. He's from Munster, definitely, but I wouldn't describe him as being developed by them.

Very true. That seems like it may be a problem with outside backs at Leisnter at the moment. 1 or 2 may have to move a la Niall Morris to Leicester.

greybeard wrote:

red_stag wrote:Indeed. Eoin Reddan, Conor Murray, Tomas O'Leary, Peter Stringer, Frank Murphy are all Munster produced.

At what point does a player go from being 'from' somewhere to being 'produced' by that area?

For example, Connacht, Wasps and Leinster have been instrumental in the rugby development of Reddan. He's from Munster, definitely, but I wouldn't describe him as being developed by them.

Reddan was playing AIL for Munster clubs until aged 19. He spent 3 years at Munster and played for Munster youth teams. I'm happy enough to claim his a Munster native the same way I am happy to do with Cronin and the same way Paul O'Donoghue is Leinster.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Carr, Fitzgerald, Horgan, Conway, Kearney, D.Kearney and Nacewa will all be fighting for back 3 places.

The only one who is guarenteed a spot is Isa really.

McFadden will be fighting for centre.

For now. Despite being a better player is there a chance Isa will lose out soon especially as Leinster will have to go from 5 NIW +1 Project to 4 NIQ + 1 Project.

I don't think so. Why would you give up the best one!? Leisnter want to be winning trophies constantly.
We will have Berquist, Isa, Skyes, VDM next year isn't that it? Then Strauu makes up the +1. That's fine or am I being thick?

Strauss is the +1 until the end of next season when he becomes IQ. Sykes then automatically becomes the +1.

Isa is going nowhere as he is signed until 2014.

We in fact have a space for another NIQ at Leinster (Replacing Stan) and will still only have 5 + 1, which will automatically reduce to 4 + 1 at the end of the season without losing any players.

Smart bit of business eh?

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

red_stag wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Carr, Fitzgerald, Horgan, Conway, Kearney, D.Kearney and Nacewa will all be fighting for back 3 places.

The only one who is guarenteed a spot is Isa really.

McFadden will be fighting for centre.

For now. Despite being a better player is there a chance Isa will lose out soon especially as Leinster will have to go from 5 NIW +1 Project to 4 NIQ + 1 Project.

I don't think so. Why would you give up the best one!? Leisnter want to be winning trophies constantly.
We will have Berquist, Isa, Skyes, VDM next year isn't that it? Then Strauu makes up the +1. That's fine or am I being thick?

Strauss is the +1 until the end of next season when he becomes IQ. Sykes then automatically becomes the +1.

Isa is going nowhere as he is signed until 2014.

We in fact have a space for another NIQ at Leinster (Replacing Stan) and will still only have 5 + 1, which will automatically reduce to 4 + 1 at the end of the season without losing any players.

Smart bit of business eh?

Likewise Ulster also have it sorted. With our kids coming through we will simple drop Danielli so for 2012-13 - Afoa, Muller, Wannenberg (or replacement), Pienaer (or replacement) with Payne as the Project.

If Munster get at 12 for next year they will have to drop someone as well

Just saw that Jarad Payne has posted on twitter that he has had to sit out of his first game of the season due to his hip being in a bad way, should we be worried?

Does it matter what teams you pick? You all come over here with with your flaming boy-band good looks and Irish brogue, treat the place like a hotel (you never write any more), pump us on the pitch, pump our lasses off the pitch etc. God, it makes you sick.
That said, I always like it when the Irish national or province sides are in town so look forward to see yous all.
PS Can you let us beat you some time please?

InjuredYetAgain wrote:You all come over here with with your flaming boy-band good looks and Irish brogue

I'm guessing you're not talking about John hayes or Rory Best here?...

roddersm wrote:

InjuredYetAgain wrote:You all come over here with with your flaming boy-band good looks and Irish brogue

I'm guessing you're not talking about John hayes or Rory Best here?...

or Tomas O'Leary or Leo Cullen

I'll relay this to Rory - he will be gutted

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
or Tomas O'Leary or Leo Cullen

I don't know Pete, Cullen has a bit off a 'Ronan Keating' look about him... maybe it's the haircut....

geoff998rugby wrote:I'll relay this to Rory - he will be gutted

Oh feck don't tell him where I live

Hahaha!!!

Does anyone know if Ulster-Leinster-Munster play eachother at all over the RWC schedule???

I think those games will be very interesting. Really looking forward to being able to see all these games.

Front row match ups between Ulster and Leinster at this time could be interesting

Munster play Leinster the week before the H Cup starts.

Most of the lads will be back by that stage though won't they???

I think it will be very interesting to look at the team sheets between November and christmas time, I think we will have an idea of which older players are being phased out of the starting teams and whose form has been rewarded by promotion into the 22 or 15.

For example: I can see Darcy having trouble getting into the 15 as long as McF keeps playing well and stays fit.

Maybe over the course of a few seasons (2 I'd say) Hagan will start relieving Ross as Leinster no.3

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Most of the lads will be back by that stage though won't they???

I think it will be very interesting to look at the team sheets between November and christmas time, I think we will have an idea of which older players are being phased out of the starting teams and whose form has been rewarded by promotion into the 22 or 15.

For example: I can see Darcy having trouble getting into the 15 as long as McF keeps playing well and stays fit.

Maybe over the course of a few seasons (2 I'd say) Hagan will start relieving Ross as Leinster no.3

Why Ross? He'll only be 32 in 2 seasons.

I'd say it will be a few years before Hagan displaces Ross. Maybe by next World Cup we'll be debating which of them to play.

To me I'd love to see by 2013 - McAllister, Ross, Healy, Hagan as our first choice and backup props with Darragh Hurley remaining fit enough to offer himself as a backup option at loosehead if needed.

Strauss is the +1 until the end of next season when he becomes IQ. Sykes then automatically becomes the +1.

I thought Struass becomes IQ in October of this year. Maybe that means we could make an NIQ signing mid season?

MBTGOG wrote:
Why Ross? He'll only be 32 in 2 seasons.

Ross isn't the fittest or most natural athlete around, I know he's a late starter but I wouldn't get too confident about him playing top level rugby into his mid 30's.

Mickado wrote:

Strauss is the +1 until the end of next season when he becomes IQ. Sykes then automatically becomes the +1.

I thought Struass becomes IQ in October of this year. Maybe that means we could make an NIQ signing mid season?

Do you need to?

MBTGOG wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Strauss is the +1 until the end of next season when he becomes IQ. Sykes then automatically becomes the +1.

I thought Struass becomes IQ in October of this year. Maybe that means we could make an NIQ signing mid season?

Do you need to?

Maybe not, depending on what state we get the team back from the world cup. But we could make a signing.

roddersm wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:I'll relay this to Rory - he will be gutted

Oh feck don't tell him where I live

Its about 5/6 weeks before I am likely to bump into him so you have plenty of time to move

Oh didn't realise he was so young apologies. That is a great situation to be in for Ireland and particularly Leinster. We will have 2 TH's going for Irish starting team. 2 hookers looking to be in the starting team and a LH looking to be in the starting team.

I can handle that.

Strauss is IQ this Oct ober I thought. 6n debut???????? testing the waters

Looking at the season gone and some of the signings that have been made it would appear Ulster have really caught up with Leinster but due to last season's performances Munster to an even greater extent. This is really good for Irish rugby to have 3 provinces so strong and Connacht will only be boosted by the HCup.

Any idea who they have signed or what their team should look like next season???

What I am trying to say is the provinces look very good for next season

Okay, Ross is 31 but still, he'll be alright in 2 years time. It's up to Hagan to dislodge him.

MBTGOG - I for one don't think we need to get in an overseas player once Strauss becomes IQ. Just because we have a quota doesn't mean we have to fill it. Our Academy is quite strong with some good quality coming through recently. I'd leave the final overseas spot open until a truly top flight elite player is available (the likes of a Rocky when he came in and really helped drive on those in his position but also the entire side). Not many that level out there and looking to move. Even Rocky's circumstances were quite unique when he wanted (and was allowed) to head to Europe to earn some dough. The stars aligned, we set up our pack to let Rocky do his thing and the rest would look after the ugly work. He isn't in that position since he return to Oz and I wonder if he will ever be in a position where a team choses to fully adapt to his strengths.

geoff998rugby wrote:
Its about 5/6 weeks before I am likely to bump into him so you have plenty of time to move

My comments have been taken out of context! A few ab crunches and a new hair piece and Rory would be a shoe in for westlife!!

Strauss only arrived in Leinster in Oct 2010. Edit: sorry 2009

He will qualify for the November internationals in 2012.

He hardly played in his first season, but after the season he has just had, he seems to have been here forever.

Don't forget. He was thrown into the breech by Forgarty and Jackman retiring.

Are Ross and Hagan the same kind of player? Haven't seen too much of Hagan but Ross really seems like a scrummager who does defensive wrk and donkey work in the loose and isn't very athletic.

Would style of player come into selection issues? I assume so

Jen-
I thought he was sorted for being IQ this year???

I think we shouldn't forget McGuire in Connacht. With some consistent gametime, he could become a genuine option in a few years.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Are Ross and Hagan the same kind of player? Haven't seen too much of Hagan but Ross really seems like a scrummager who does defensive wrk and donkey work in the loose and isn't very athletic.

Would style of player come into selection issues? I assume so

Jen-
I thought he was sorted for being IQ this year???

Nope. Next season.

Hagan had a good season in Connacht, but he is still a little young and raw. Don't forget Healy is a freak of nature for a prop. Normally they would be at least 25 before being international standard.

I am not sure whether he will be ahead of or behind new signing Nathan White from the chiefs. And if he is ahead will it be because of IRFU dictat.

Don't get me wrong, he will be great in another year or so, but needs HC experience.

MBTGOG wrote:I think we shouldn't forget McGuire in Connacht. With some consistent gametime, he could become a genuine option in a few years.

Too tall. Even taller than John Hayes. He will need to be really special to make the grade at international level.

IMHO 6'2" is about the limit for a Prop. He is 6'5" He will need Hayes levels of talent to make it on the intl stage.

Don't forget even the great Bull took a long time to mature as a scrumager. Too easy for loose heads and hookers to get under big guys.

Carl Hayman is the only other exception I can think of.

When you say...

"I am not sure whether he will be ahead of or behind new signing Nathan White from the chiefs. And if he is ahead will it be because of IRFU dictat."

do you mean Hagan or Healy??

I assume White is on a short term contract to cover RWC.
Ah rudey poo thought Strauss would have been ok by this 6N and kind of want all that controversy sorted earlier rather than later which ever DK decided on (people decide on)

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Don't forget Healy is a freak of nature for a prop. Normally they would be at least 25 before being international standard.

Ah now that is a total exaggeration, other teams churn out young props all the time. Look at Cole and Corbieso (sp) for England.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Normally they would be at least 25 before being international standard.

How true is that I wonder. I think thats not as true as it used to be.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

MBTGOG wrote:I think we shouldn't forget McGuire in Connacht. With some consistent gametime, he could become a genuine option in a few years.

Too tall. Even taller than John Hayes. He will need to be really special to make the grade at international level.

IMHO 6'2" is about the limit for a Prop. He is 6'5" He will need Hayes levels of talent to make it on the intl stage.

Don't forget even the great Bull took a long time to mature as a scrumager. Too easy for loose heads and hookers to get under big guys.

Carl Hayman is the only other exception I can think of.

Maybe but he has already shown the ability to scrummage. Hayes took a long time to mature due to how late he converted to prop. McGuire has been playing it the whole way through. From what I've seen of him, what he actually needs to do is lose some weight and improve his fitness and I say that is what has been happening and will continue to do so during his time with Connacht.

red_stag wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Normally they would be at least 25 before being international standard.

How true is that I wonder. I think thats not as true as it used to be.

I agree there seems to be a new generation of young, squat, powerhouse props who all tend to me more athletic than the older model too

thebandwagonsociety wrote:MBTGOG - I for one don't think we need to get in an overseas player once Strauss becomes IQ. Just because we have a quota doesn't mean we have to fill it. Our Academy is quite strong with some good quality coming through recently. I'd leave the final overseas spot open until a truly top flight elite player is available (the likes of a Rocky when he came in and really helped drive on those in his position but also the entire side). Not many that level out there and looking to move. Even Rocky's circumstances were quite unique when he wanted (and was allowed) to head to Europe to earn some dough. The stars aligned, we set up our pack to let Rocky do his thing and the rest would look after the ugly work. He isn't in that position since he return to Oz and I wonder if he will ever be in a position where a team choses to fully adapt to his strengths.

We have already signed our 6th niq. Nathan White. When Strauss qualifies the numbers will go down to 5 (4 + a project player) So we will not have another spot.

2012/2013 season

Berquist and Van Der Merwe are out of contract. Strauss becomes IQ. Not sure how long White's contract will be. Leaving us just Isa, and Sykes as a project player

roddersm wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Don't forget Healy is a freak of nature for a prop. Normally they would be at least 25 before being international standard.

Ah now that is a total exaggeration, other teams churn out young props all the time. Look at Cole and Corbieso (sp) for England.

Thomas Domingo, Owen Franks and Benn Robinson as well.

"We have already signed our 6th niq. Nathan White. When Strauss qualifies the numbers will go down to 5 (4 + a project player) So we will not have another spot.

2012/2013 season

Berquist and Van Der Merwe are out of contract. Strauss becomes IQ. Not sure how long White's contract will be. Leaving us just Isa, and Sykes as a project player"

This sounds like a really good situation to be in. We may need cover at LH, lock and possibly 9 depending on how the lads are.

BOD has renewed his contract up to 2013, hypothetically let's say he retires then, who would people want at 13 for Leinster? O'Malley? Fitzgerald? Nacewa? Or would that be an ideal opportunity to buy an NIQ player??

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Normally they would be at least 25 before being international standard.

How true is that I wonder. I think thats not as true as it used to be.

I agree there seems to be a new generation of young, squat, powerhouse props who all tend to me more athletic than the older model too

Fair enough. Good point on Cole too. I still don't think Hagan is quite ready for intl level yet. And yes I meant Hagan, not Healy being behind White. Healy is behind no one. Him and VDM have just been rotated and used for tactical reasons. White is a TH. I hope he can cover LH like Stan could. That would be a bonus.

It would be that would give us great strength in depth in the front row

1 Healy-VDM-White<????>
2 Strauss-Cronin-JHW
3 Ross-Hagan-White-McGrath

Question: Will this be a breakthrough year for the so far unimpressive Peter Borlase?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:"We have already signed our 6th niq. Nathan White. When Strauss qualifies the numbers will go down to 5 (4 + a project player) So we will not have another spot.

2012/2013 season

Berquist and Van Der Merwe are out of contract. Strauss becomes IQ. Not sure how long White's contract will be. Leaving us just Isa, and Sykes as a project player"

This sounds like a really good situation to be in. We may need cover at LH, lock and possibly 9 depending on how the lads are.

BOD has renewed his contract up to 2013, hypothetically let's say he retires then, who would people want at 13 for Leinster? O'Malley? Fitzgerald? Nacewa? Or would that be an ideal opportunity to buy an NIQ player??

Drico will be 34 and a half when his contract expires. If he makes the Lions, I would say that will be the last of him with all the miles he has on the clock. And who could begrudge him with the service he has given Leinster and Irielan.

O'Malley, Macken, McFadden could all play 13. Along with D Kearney, Isa and Fitz if you want to stretch things. Good signs in the academy too. so I don't think we will need an NIQ. A lot can happen in 2 years though.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:"We have already signed our 6th niq. Nathan White. When Strauss qualifies the numbers will go down to 5 (4 + a project player) So we will not have another spot.

2012/2013 season

Berquist and Van Der Merwe are out of contract. Strauss becomes IQ. Not sure how long White's contract will be. Leaving us just Isa, and Sykes as a project player"

This sounds like a really good situation to be in. We may need cover at LH, lock and possibly 9 depending on how the lads are.

BOD has renewed his contract up to 2013, hypothetically let's say he retires then, who would people want at 13 for Leinster? O'Malley? Fitzgerald? Nacewa? Or would that be an ideal opportunity to buy an NIQ player??

Eoin O’Malley. Most definitely. With Macken and Alex Kelly being the backups.

Leinster shouldn’t look to sign any more NIQ back’s (outside of scrum half) for a good few years.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:It would be that would give us great strength in depth in the front row

1 Healy-VDM-McGrath-White<????>
2 Strauss-Cronin-JHW & Tom Sexton
3 Ross-Hagan-White-McGrath

McGrath is mainly LH.

McAllister will be International standard well before he is 25 - I would also say he is a better prospect than Hagan.

In recent years top props and backrowers seem to be emerging at a earlier age.

red_stag wrote:Question: Will this be a breakthrough year for the so far unimpressive Peter Borlase?

Remember how poor Stan Wright was when he first came? Needs to be given more time.

MBTGOG wrote:

red_stag wrote:Question: Will this be a breakthrough year for the so far unimpressive Peter Borlase?

Remember how poor Stan Wright was when he first came? Needs to be given more time.

Thats what I'm thinking. I'm backing him to have a good year in the Pro 12