Ireland v New Zealand 2nd Test Live Match Thread

[Pal Joey]

First topic message reminder :

Venue for the 2nd test: AMI Stadium (Addington) - formerly Rugby League Park Christchurch
Capacity: 26,000 incl. temporary seating
Weather http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2192362

Current forecast for Saturday evening is around 3 degrees C and light rain.

All Blacks: Israel Dagg, Zac Guildford, Conrad Smith, Sonny Bill Williams, Julian Savea, Dan Carter, Aaron Smith, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw (c), Adam Thomson, Sam Whitelock, Brodie Retallick, Owen Franks, Andrew Hore, Tony Woodcock.

Reserves: Hika Elliot, Ben Franks, Sam Cane, Ali Williams, Piri Weepu, Aaron Cruden, Ben Smith
[/quote]

Irish team:
15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
5 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
6 - Kevin McLaughlin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17 - Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster)
18 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
19 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

McFadden is a more like for like replacement for Darcy than Wallace is IMO

I know you like McFadden but he's not a guy who seems to be considered as a 12 but the current coaching staff. Unable to carve out his own niche in the Leinster team he's damned with the tag of the utility player. We only have one fit specialist 12 now D'Arcy is out.

It's a shame because I like McFadden. Just wish he would show what he's capable of sooner rather than later. He's a major talent who's been treading water for a while.

I'd agree with all of that I think.
I wish he'd step up. i hope O'Malley moves into the centre with BOD for Leinster next year now, not McFadden

[The Great Aukster]

If McFadden isn't considered a centre, that means he is only there as a wing. Why did Kidney pick him over Gilroy, a regular starter for his province and on pitch cover for 15?

[Standulstermen]

On the Nigel Owens thing. Some of the stuff that was put on his twitter by Irish 'fans' this past week has been appalling and reminiscent of the abuse he got after the Samoan game at the RWC.

That being said he dignifies these by responding but also he disgraces not only himself but the IRB by some of his responses by stooping to their level. He is in serious danger of bringing his office into disrepute and someone at the IRB would do well to have a quiet word.

Yet again Muppet highlights the very worst in peoples attitude towards sport and I say that as someone who was critical of nigels decisions.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

On the Nigel Owens thing. Some of the stuff that was put on his twitter by Irish 'fans' this past week has been appalling and reminiscent of the abuse he got after the Samoan game at the RWC.

That being said he dignifies these by responding but also he disgraces not only himself but the IRB by some of his responses by stooping to their level. He is in serious danger of bringing his office into disrepute and someone at the IRB would do well to have a quiet word.

Yet again Muppet highlights the very worst in peoples attitude towards sport and I say that as someone who was critical of nigels decisions.

Agreed Stand. Some of the vitriol from so called irish fans was despicable. But his responses were a disgrace. The article in the irish Times was fair and measured and pointed out some of his mistakes and inconsistencies. To call the writer a 'liar', someone who was a decent player in his day is pretty poor. I have no problem with Owens, he's a pretty good referee. He made a couple of calls that killed us on Saturday and the decision on the Irish scrum that gave the All Blacks the penalty was questionable at best.

[rodders]

I have no problem with Owens, he's a pretty good referee. He made a couple of calls that killed us on Saturday and the decision on the Irish scrum that gave the All Blacks the penalty was questionable at best.

Do you really think that Hook?

I can think of one or two occaisions say when we conceded penalties at the breakdown with hands in the ruck close to our line that could have been yellows.... definitely NZ got away with a few things but so did we. I thought they evened out and both teams had sufficient chances to win so don't think he influenced the result particularly.

No comment on the twitter thing, don't use it but if you do then you need to be thick skinned. Not condoning abuse though.

[Mickado]

I didn’t read any vitriol from Irish fans on twitter, but I did read Tolands article and saw no problem with it.

He’s perfectly entitled to analyse a referee’s calls for inconsistencies if he wants.

Owens responses just sounded very childish.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

I have no problem with Owens, he's a pretty good referee. He made a couple of calls that killed us on Saturday and the decision on the Irish scrum that gave the All Blacks the penalty was questionable at best.

Do you really think that Hook?

I can think of one or two occaisions say when we conceded penalties at the breakdown with hands in the ruck close to our line that could have been yellows.... definitely NZ got away with a few things but so did we. I thought they evened out and both teams had sufficient chances to win so don't think he influenced the result particularly.

No comment on the twitter thing, don't use it but if you do then you need to be thick skinned. Not condoning abuse though.

The call to give New Zealand was wrong. The Irish scrum had the push on and the All Blacks wheeled it. At that stage of the match that was a killer decision. It didn't have to be fatal so I'm not blaming him for us losing (thats called 'being Welsh'), but it was a poor decision. Also, read Whiff of Cordite's view on the match pointing out that the All Black chasers on Carter's drop kick were offside, therefore it should never have been another scrum, so no opportunity to go for another drop kick. Not sure how true that is because I haven't rewatched it, but these are basic errors.

[rodders]

The scrum wheeling thing is a lottery, you win some you lose some. We had chances after that so I can live with it.

Not 100% on the other one but if the ball was touched in flight by O'Brien then surely that puts the NZ chasers onside? Either way I think that's clutching at straws a bit.

We had sufficient chances to set up for the drop goal but got white line fever. NZ showed more composure than us, thats just the reality, in my view.

[Mickado]

The scrum wheeling thing is a lottery, you win some you lose some. We had chances after that so I can live with it.

Not 100% on the other one but if the ball was touched in flight by O'Brien then surely that puts the NZ chasers onside? Either way I think that's clutching at straws a bit.

We had sufficient chances to set up for the drop goal but got white line fever. NZ showed more composure than us, thats just the reality, in my view.

Spot on. They weren't claiming that was a bad call by Owens, they just said it's a silly rule.

[Standulstermen]

Apparently if the ball ends up in goal they aren't on side rodders. Something like at. Francis mentioned it aswell but whatever. The wheel is a lottery, allowing weepu license to not put the ball in when we lost possession twice the week previous for not putting it in is not a lottery, it isn't interpretation. It is just plain poor.

That being said I think that was the only clear instance where Nigel was inconsistent on Saturday so all in all he didn't have a bad game. I like owens as a ref but he isn't strong on the scrum. that being said the abuse he got on Muppet was seriously despicable and damaged the rep of Irish fans.

[John Cregan]

I havent read all this thread but a big thanks to Roman Poite (Munster & Ireland's favourite Referee!) for overruling the Referee on the knock-on that led to the scrum, that led to the penalty,that led to the drop goal miss that led to the dodgy 5 yard scrum call that led to the flukey drop goal.....................

The actual referee said "it didn't go forward" so why was he so happy to overturn his decision based on the word of a man who has proven to be heavily biased against Ireland & Munster in the past..............and if you think im bitter, i have tons of footage to back up my view on Poite

[Standulstermen]

Epic face palm

[John Cregan]

Watched out for a replay of the "knock on" but didn't see it.
Nigel Owens must have or else he was spoofing when he said: "didn't go forward" yet was happy to overrule himself when Poite intervened..............

Odd??

[Standulstermen]

No. He took advice from his TJ who told him it went forward. I don't think it did either but it's one of those 50/50 things.

Not sure if you are blaming Poite (who had no say in the scrum calls) or Owens who followed the advice of his TJ . We got the wrong end of a couple of poor calls. C'est la vie

[rodders]

The ball shouldn't have been out at the right hand touchline anyway, it should have been center field to set up for the drop goal.

C'est la vie, non...C'est Rugby .

[SecretFly]

I havent read all this thread but a big thanks to Roman Poite (Munster & Ireland's favourite Referee!) for overruling the Referee on the knock-on that led to the scrum, that led to the penalty,that led to the drop goal miss that led to the dodgy 5 yard scrum call that led to the flukey drop goal.....................

The actual referee said "it didn't go forward" so why was he so happy to overturn his decision based on the word of a man who has proven to be heavily biased against Ireland & Munster in the past..............and if you think im bitter, i have tons of footage to back up my view on Poite

He's not too rosy with Leinster either if my iffy memory is still rolling at it's top rate of 40 percent.

[John Cregan]

No. He took advice from his TJ who told him it went forward. I don't think it did either but it's one of those 50/50 things.

Not sure if you are blaming Poite (who had no say in the scrum calls) or Owens who followed the advice of his TJ . We got the wrong end of a couple of poor calls. C'est la vie

Oh im definately blaming Poite. I 100% believe he is prejudiced when it comes to Ireland (& Munster - i have no evidence of Leinster & Ulster prejudice).
It's hard enough to beat the All Blacks without having an official with a chip on his shoulder against you.............................any reasonable person looking at Poite in recent years against Munster will see what i am talking about.........................
And of course Owens, if he had seen it should have stood by his original call................................

[Standulstermen]

No. He took advice from his TJ who told him it went forward. I don't think it did either but it's one of those 50/50 things.

Not sure if you are blaming Poite (who had no say in the scrum calls) or Owens who followed the advice of his TJ . We got the wrong end of a couple of poor calls. C'est la vie

Oh im definately blaming Poite. I 100% believe he is prejudiced when it comes to Ireland (& Munster - i have no evidence of Leinster & Ulster prejudice).
It's hard enough to beat the All Blacks without having an official with a chip on his shoulder against you.............................any reasonable person looking at Poite in recent years against Munster will see what i am talking about.........................
And of course Owens, if he had seen it should have stood by his original call................................

Well based on your posting in the rugby forum I 100% believe you are wrong and I have as much evidence as you

[John Cregan]

Standulsterman,

What is wrong with you??? Disagree with me if you wissh but name calling is out of line..............are you a cousin of Mr. Poite??

[Biltong]

Comeon Ulsterman, you know we cannot insult others.

[Standulstermen]

I won't hold back on anyone who accuses top referees of prejudice, bias or anything if that ilk. It is massively disrespectful, incredibly childish and not in keeping with the traditions of rugby.

What you have said is exactly the same as the welsh who state that Alain Rolland cannot referee France because his dad is French. Disgraceful.
You accuse Poite of having a anti munster and Ireland bias yet conveniently overlook the fact that of the 3 games he reffed munster in the heineken you won two (scarlets and saints away) and lost one (to an Irish province). Hardly the work of someone with an inherent bias.

I have no issue with anyone disputing a call, and both Poite and Owens made poor ones on Saturday but you accuse one of bias and imply it in the other is over the line and I will call anyone who does that an idiot.

[Notch]

Fair play Stand

[Rava]

I won't hold back on anyone who accuses top referees of prejudice, bias or anything if that ilk. It is massively disrespectful, incredibly childish and not in keeping with the traditions of rugby.

What you have said is exactly the same as the welsh who state that Alain Rolland cannot referee France because his dad is French. Disgraceful.
You accuse Poite of having a anti munster and Ireland bias yet conveniently overlook the fact that of the 3 games he reffed munster in the heineken you won two (scarlets and saints away) and lost one (to an Irish province). Hardly the work of someone with an inherent bias.

I have no issue with anyone disputing a call, and both Poite and Owens made poor ones on Saturday but you accuse one of bias and imply it in the other is over the line and I will call anyone who does that an idiot.

Good Stand! Stand.

[John Cregan]

Stand,

You seem like a typical head in the sand "thou shalt not question the referee" man........

Of course i believe most referees are 100% fair, i don't believe this fella is.............i believe he is arrogant and biased...............traits a lot of people have in this world

[Standulstermen]

John

You seem like one if those Irish fans I referred to earlier whose opinions belong on twitter

[Sin é]

Fairplay Stand

You castigate those on twitter for abusing Owens, yet you abuse a poster here for posting politely that they think Poitre has an anti-Munster bias about him

I think Poitre has a bit of a thing about Munster in that he regards Munster supporters in Thomond Pk as the ultimate challenge in not being known as a homer and he likes to take Paul O'Connell down a peg or three.

And in fairness to him, he did everything in his power to even things up in favour of Northampton - two penalty tries!

[rodders]

Come on lads, a take few deep breaths

Firstly welcome to the rugby boards John

Stand I totally agree with your sentiments but I think you should attack the post, not the poster .

I think John has raised a fair point about the KO and Owens not sticking with his original assessment but I think we can do with out the accusations towards Poite and the tone of the comments. No need for that sir .... but no I don't agree, I think the officiating was fair enough, give or take. No complaints.

[eirebilly]

I saw the incident, didnt look like a knock on to me at the time. Poite called it but he was also only calling it as he saw it. Cant see any issue here to be honest. Its one of those incidents when you scream murder at the TV for a few minutes and then calm down. I call them 'match incidents' in that they happen to every team at some stage or another.

Really not a fan of Poite, think that he is a very average ref but i cant see any bias in his decisions.

[Gretgael1]

Is calling someone an idiot a case of becoming a monster to defeat a monster? I think so.

Anyway, rodders, i'm not sure of the chances we had after we conceded the penalty wheeling in the scrum. I can't remember any. Also, I recall you thought we should have kicked to touch, instead of the posts, for the dagg penalty on Kearney. What's interesting is that on watching the replay bod wanted to do the same but owen had told him that the call was already made to kick for the post. I didn't notice this the first time of watching.

[Thomond]

To call a ref biased is ridiculous. Also don't see why people are blaming the ref, we lost the game due tour own issues. Namely lack of discipline at the brekadown, leading to cheap kickable penalties. Hate to see us taking the route it's the refs fault. Even if we can't beat the Welsh on the pitch, let's keep the "moral high ground" on them lads

[MrsP]

I saw the incident, didnt look like a knock on to me at the time. Poite called it but he was also only calling it as he saw it. Cant see any issue here to be honest. Its one of those incidents when you scream murder at the TV for a few minutes and then calm down. I call them 'match incidents' in that they happen to every team at some stage or another.

Really not a fan of Poite, think that he is a very average ref but i cant see any bias in his decisions.

+1

There are several problems with this ever increasing trend to blame the ref.

(1) It is disrespectful and goes against the very essence of what rugby is all about.

(2) It is the road to nowhere. You will never get better if it's not your fault you lost.

Are the most important ones that come to mind just now.

Refs are human and so make mistakes. We are human and so we tend to only notice the mistakes that adversly effect our team. Accepting these facts makes watching games so much more enjoyable.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Is calling someone an idiot a case of becoming a monster to defeat a monster? I think so.

Anyway, rodders, i'm not sure of the chances we had after we conceded the penalty wheeling in the scrum. I can't remember any. Also, I recall you thought we should have kicked to touch, instead of the posts, for the dagg penalty on Kearney. What's interesting is that on watching the replay bod wanted to do the same but owen had told him that the call was already made to kick for the post. I didn't notice this the first time of watching.

That is interesting. I didn't see that. I suppose hindsight is 20/20 but maybe it would have been the right call. Would have been risky to say the least but could have worked.

I think it's nearly time for a new thread lads, this one has a sufficent number of tangents on it, anyone wanna do the honours?

[SecretFly]

But we do have infinitely long discussions about the resulting mayhem caused by reffing decisions...

If we seriously want to stop the culture of ref blaming then perhaps we'll all shy away from the intricacies of when yellows shouldn't have been yellows, and when citings should have been innocence declared on the day, on the field.

We all add to the culture of ref blaming, everytime we bog ourselves down in discussions that crawl over his decisions with fine tooth combs.

[eirebilly]

Is calling someone an idiot a case of becoming a monster to defeat a monster? I think so.

Anyway, rodders, i'm not sure of the chances we had after we conceded the penalty wheeling in the scrum. I can't remember any. Also, I recall you thought we should have kicked to touch, instead of the posts, for the dagg penalty on Kearney. What's interesting is that on watching the replay bod wanted to do the same but owen had told him that the call was already made to kick for the post. I didn't notice this the first time of watching.

That is interesting. I didn't see that. I suppose hindsight is 20/20 but maybe it would have been the right call. Would have been risky to say the least but could have worked.

I think it's nearly time for a new thread lads, this one has a sufficent number of tangents on it, anyone wanna do the honours?

Pete, BOD defo wanted to go for touch. I am not sure what happened and why but on the repeats i saw BOD defo wanted the touch.

[Thomond]

Sexton's a maverick. Shows he doesn't care about the team. Would we ever dop him and bring in ROG. I mean come on like, it's becoming a joke at this stage.

[eirebilly]

Sexton's a maverick. Shows he doesn't care about the team. Would we ever dop him and bring in ROG. I mean come on like, it's becoming a joke at this stage.

Sin é fanboy

[MrsP]

But we do have infinitely long discussions about the resulting mayhem caused by reffing decisions...

If we seriously want to stop the culture of ref blaming then perhaps we'll all shy away from the intricacies of when yellows shouldn't have been yellows, and when citings should have been innocence declared on the day, on the field.

We all add to the culture of ref blaming, everytime we bog ourselves down in discussions that crawl over his decisions with fine tooth combs.

Some of us can manage to hold such discussions without blaming the ref and certainly without ever suggesting he was biased.

But I accept that some cannot!

[Gretgael1]

Pete, I was watching the replay with the nz commentators and you can clearly hear Owens telling bod that we already made the call for the posts. Rodders thought we should have kicked to the corner, I disagreed, but on reflection it could have been the right call. Our line out was working fine, we got our first try from a similar position but this time they were a man down and we had all the momentum. Who knows? If, if, if, if, if......haha!

Ireland win Saturday.....believe

[Rava]

Is calling someone an idiot a case of becoming a monster to defeat a monster? I think so.

Anyway, rodders, i'm not sure of the chances we had after we conceded the penalty wheeling in the scrum. I can't remember any. Also, I recall you thought we should have kicked to touch, instead of the posts, for the dagg penalty on Kearney. What's interesting is that on watching the replay bod wanted to do the same but owen had told him that the call was already made to kick for the post. I didn't notice this the first time of watching.

That is interesting. I didn't see that. I suppose hindsight is 20/20 but maybe it would have been the right call. Would have been risky to say the least but could have worked.

I think it's nearly time for a new thread lads, this one has a sufficent number of tangents on it, anyone wanna do the honours?

Pete going for a goal kick from that range was risky as it was beyond Sextons range.
IMO there would have been no risk in going for the lineout. In that game we won most of our throws and we were also doing very well at holding on to the ball. We were also a man up. We handed the initiative straight back to them and gave away valuable field position.
If BOD didn't make the call then who did?

[Gretgael1]

Rava, i'm guessing Sexton pointed to the post straight away without consulting bod. The call was made, no going back then.

[Mickado]

Have you watched the replay of the scrum penalty lads? I saw it again today and it really is a very strange call.

I’m not “blaming” the ref on the result, but I am frustrated that a refereeing inconsistency happened at such a pivotal time in the game.

Should we all just bite our tongue when a ref screws up?

I don’t think Poite is biased against Munster or Ireland, I don’t think he’s the best ref either. I didn’t think it was a knock on but he saw what he saw, correctly or not, and he called it as such. That’s fine. But Owens was on Healys side of the scrum, saw Franks drop his bind, saw the replacement flanker break his bind, saw Weepu delay the put in (which he penalized Murray for twice last week) and THEN he called a penalty against Ireland for wheeling the scrum. That’s a bad call. I’m not looking for Owens head on a pike, I’m just saying we’re allowed to say it’s a bad call without turning into soccerball whingers.

[John Cregan]

Who do the Ukraine blame then for not being awarded a goal last night??

MrsP, im always slow to criticise referees but if i believe they are biased, i will say it. If the majority think he is not biased, then i have no problem with that.

I think Rugby people are worried about criticising referees because of upsetting "the integrity of the game", but surely we can do it on 606V2- i don't think Poite is signed up to this forum!!

[Thomond]

They don't blame anyone because he was offside anyway!

[SecretFly]

Some of us can manage to hold such discussions without blaming the ref and certainly without ever suggesting he was biased.

But I accept that some cannot!

Our discussions, whether they blame him or not, indirectly imply that he should see/couldn't see/didn't see or didn't want to see what we were seeing.... even though what we are seeing is more often than not repeated viewings of HD super-slowmo footage...and even though we all still ferevently disagree about what we're seeing even with that tool.

But everytime we discuss the incidents, we implicate the refs in the judgements and therefore put the magnifying glass to his role. And eventually, over time, certain refs become heros of quick thought and unbiased deeds and other suffer from the intense scrutiny and become the pantomime villains. So - whilst individuals in the long discussions might not be blaming a ref, they're adding to the culture of ref watching and therefore adding to the reputations (good or bad) of refs being watched. It's inescapable I suppose, as that's the enjoyment of the sport, the discussion in the aftermath - but yep, we could tone down the intensity of reffing decisions being habitually the most heated discussion points

[rodders]

Anyway, rodders, i'm not sure of the chances we had after we conceded the penalty wheeling in the scrum. I can't remember any . Also, I recall you thought we should have kicked to touch, instead of the posts, for the dagg penalty on Kearney. What's interesting is that on watching the replay bod wanted to do the same but owen had told him that the call was already made to kick for the post. I didn't notice this the first time of watching.

No we didn't have any, I didn't say we had?.. but we had sufficient opportunity to win or at least grind out the draw before that point.

For me we made two crucial mistakes, taking the long kick at goal when we had the penalty... it was a long way out and with an increasingly dominant scrum and the ABs down to 14 we had a real opportunity there to catch and drive and put them under big pressure. Even if we nailed it the ABs were dominating the restarts and still had sufficient time to win.

The bigger mistake for me was after we missed the kick we got the ball back and got into the ABs half. Instead of driving up the middle and being patient and setting up for the drop goal, we spun the ball out to the right hand touch line and knocked on.

Regardless of the descisions by Poitre and Owens on the scrum we had more than enough opportunity to get something from the game. I believe we just lost composure in that last 5-6 mins and the ABs kept their's and that, not the refereeing decisions was the difference.

[Thomond]

Mick, Franks drops his bind alright. I wouldn't say Healy is blameless though either, it looks like he might be boring in. The scrum is about equalising pressure between two guys. Sometimes one guy drops his bind as the his opponent can't keep up the pressure. Not the majority of the time, some times. No point crying over spilt milk. We didn't win and lost due to our own issues. Focus on Saturday.

[Gretgael1]

The scrum wheeling thing is a lottery, you win some you lose some. We had chances after that so I can live with it.

Not 100% on the other one but if the ball was touched in flight by O'Brien then surely that puts the NZ chasers onside? Either way I think that's clutching at straws a bit.

We had sufficient chances to set up for the drop goal but got white line fever. NZ showed more composure than us, thats just the reality, in my view.

[Mickado]

I am focused on Saturday (not that my area of focus would affect the team).

Even if we assume that Healy was boring in and that’s why Franks dropped his bind then Owens still ignored Same Cane breaking his bind. If one flanker breaks his bind the scrum is far more likely to wheel.

[John Cregan]

Mick, Franks drops his bind alright. I wouldn't say Healy is blameless though either, it looks like he might be boring in. The scrum is about equalising pressure between two guys. Sometimes one guy drops his bind as the his opponent can't keep up the pressure. Not the majority of the time, some times. No point crying over spilt milk. We didn't win and lost due to our own issues. Focus on Saturday.

Focus on a 40 point defeat!! Coz it's coming...............I suggest we turn our back on the ridiculous "Haka" and do a litte bit of a warm up...just for to make them really angry like.........

[rodders]

The scrum wheeling thing is a lottery, you win some you lose some. We had chances after that so I can live with it.

Not 100% on the other one but if the ball was touched in flight by O'Brien then surely that puts the NZ chasers onside? Either way I think that's clutching at straws a bit.

We had sufficient chances to set up for the drop goal but got white line fever. NZ showed more composure than us, thats just the reality, in my view.

Apologies, you are quite right. I'm sure I must have meant before that and not after... at least I can't think of what chances we may have had after to which I may have been referring. I stand corrected .

[Sponsored content]