England v Italy, Quarter Final, Build up and Match Thread

[Duty281]

First topic message reminder :

England v Italy (Sunday 24th June, 19:45 KO, BBC 1)

On the back of good defence, England have notched up 2 wins and a draw, confounding the majority of expectations along the way. The unexpected bonus of topping Group D has given them a game against Italy, not Spain, and England have a glorious chance of reaching their first semi-final in 16 years. Italy haven't really started yet and their sole win was against a poor Ireland team but they did manage an impressive draw against the Spanish. The winners will play Germany.......or maybe Greece.

My prediction: England 1-0 Italy

Come on England!

[Josiah Maiestas]

English clubs offer too high wages, I mean Bayern Munich were making offers for Leighton Baines and he didn't want to leave. Seriously if you are ambitious, Everton or Bayern??? Clubs pay far too much money for players, and it destroys the young players coming through.

Jos we have to understand that the limitation isnt due to prem clubs being to rich.. the limitation is the amount of players we have at the highest level. The Prem needs to remain strong- it actually is more important than our national team. you may not like that sentiment but it is- it is a great export and we need to keep its brand name strong.. We can still get loads of players in top clubs- but we just need to produce more at a technical level.. FA makes bundlestherefore it needs to stop wasting its resources.. Leighton baines is one player- thats all. He cant even be on much money at everton anyway. if bayern arnt willing to match that wage or increase it abit- they either dont really want him or need to sort there own finances out

They were going to offer him similar wages to what he had, he was just scared of going to Germany. Probably thinks they are the same Germans as the ones in 1940's.

haha what a ridiculas comment- do you really believe that. what a strange opinion you have of him.

Leighton is obviously holding out for a better offer - he isnt stupid and knows how scarce left sided defenders are.. Its abit insulting to offer a player what he is on at a lower club. We have to respect his decision- uprooting your family to go to germany also is an issue- but it isnt because he thinks they are nazis!!!!!

I was exaggerating. Still don't think he would go to Bayern if they offer him more than he was on, English players are always "homesick" bla bla.

Crimey I know what you mean about 8-10 year olds only wanting to play match games. More extroverted kids will not be bothered about skills and just want to hoof it long.

[mystiroakey]

jos dude- come on, english people are possibly the most travelled peoples in the world- this sentiment you are alluding to is rubbish pal. The fact is if the prem wasnt a top league our players would be more inclined to move, if we had more depth they would be more inclined to move. It isnt a british trait, infact we are actually the polar opposite

[Josiah Maiestas]

How many English players go abroad then? When England were a pretty good national team in the late 70s and 80s, most of the top players were playing abroad, like Keegan, Lineker, Glenn Hoddle etc.

[mystiroakey]

Jos I have answered the questions above.

If you still dont get it- the prem is a cool place to be. but if these footballers were basketball players and USA came knocking- there would be off like a shot.

I dont understand why you think we had a good national side in the late 70's or 80's though- since 1970 we have been very similar till the present day.

[Josiah Maiestas]

The results were not the best mysti, but the players were actually skilled in the late 70s and 80s. Maybe you think defending and having 30% possession is better than 50-60% possession and losing tight games? Your convenience.

[super_realist]

I think there were better UK players in the UK at that time though even though all home nation teams were still hopeless.

Dalglish, Keegan, Hoddle, Rush, Hughes, Toshack, Souness, Hansen, Lineker, Waddle, Pearce, Barnes etc.

The Prem is a good place to be, not because it's the best football, but because even an average player makes a fortune, and footballers are understandably mercenary.

It would be nice for once to see one break the mould and go and play in Spain or Germany for the good of their games, but then again, given their lack of culture I doubt they'd manage.

[mystiroakey]

more about results, not about the current style(that style will chance in months if certain players come in)- you may not realise but last world cup we had 56% v the germans and lost- yet have come out of this one with a better outlook- somehow!!!!

[lorus59]

So what are they doing in foreign clubs? They must have a way to instil skills and still keep it fun.

[mystiroakey]

I think there were better UK players in the UK at that time though even though all home nation teams were still hopeless.

Dalglish, Keegan, Hoddle, Rush, Hughes, Toshack, Souness, Hansen, Lineker, Waddle, Pearce, Barnes etc.

The Prem is a good place to be, not because it's the best football, but because even an average player makes a fortune, and footballers are understandably mercenary.

It would be nice for once to see one break the mould and go and play in Spain or Germany for the good of their games, but then again, given the lack of culture I doubt they'd manage.

the point is though SR- that isnt an english trait- its a footballers trait-your culture comment is out of line.

the truth is the prem is the most 'open to other cultures' league and that is why so much foriegn talent can shine here. its about the stregth of the prems ethics rather than our players abroad

[super_realist]

NOt at all.

If you hear the likes of Terry, Cole and Gerrard being interviewed they are thick as mince, whereas if you look at Beckham, Owen and Hargreaves, English players who have travelled, they are far more relaxed, articulate and engaging.

Foreign footballers almost always come across far better than our 100% domestic based players.

Not only would it be good for their football to travel, but it would help make them more interesting and cultured people.

Living all your days in an essex, mock tudor mansion with ghastly gold plated liberace interior isn't a good way to gain cultural experiences.

[mystiroakey]

SR your talking absoloute rubbish. Its your own perceived view of people that you need to work on. Its so easy for you to have a go. It couldnt be further from the truth. In spainish clubs they still call black collegues negritos and stuff!! you obviously have no idea what other countries footballers are like ..

[GSC]

I wouldn't say thats true at all realist. You seem to use interesting to sub for different.

Ashley doesn't come across as thick personally, sure his actions would paint as a bit of a ****, but he doesn't seem stupid. Gerrard isn't thick at all.

[Crimey]

SR your talking absoloute rubbish. Its your own perceived view of people that you need to work on. Its so easy for you to have a go. It couldnt be further from the truth. In spainish clubs they still call black collegues negritos and stuff!! you obviously have no idea what other countries footballers are like ..

That's because 'negrito' isn't supposed to be an offensive term.

[GSC]

And Beckham has always come across as a bit slow in the head to me.

[mystiroakey]

what about the french players- the dutch players- lol. obviously i brought that up before- hasnt registed then?

[mystiroakey]

SR your talking absoloute rubbish. Its your own perceived view of people that you need to work on. Its so easy for you to have a go. It couldnt be further from the truth. In spainish clubs they still call black collegues negritos and stuff!! you obviously have no idea what other countries footballers are like ..

That's because 'negrito' isn't supposed to be an offensive term.

but it is to the many black players- as i said its about perception. others may think gerrard and cole are offensive, when they arnt- they are not supposed to be offensive...

[Crimey]

Ashley doesn't come across as thick personally, sure his actions would paint as a bit of a ****, but he doesn't seem stupid. Gerrard isn't thick at all.

I agree. I saw the interview with Ashley Cole before the game and he came across pretty articulate and intelligent, it's the things he has done in his life that make him appear stupid. Steven Gerrard has always appeared pretty smart in his interviews, he's probably let down by his scouse accent but I think throughout this tournament he has come across very well in all the press conferences and interviews.

Neither Ashley Cole or Steven Gerrard are going to like the limelight in the same way Beckham does, but I think to say they always sound thick isn't quite accurate.

I have no defence for Terry though who comes across as stupid, because he is stupid.

[GSC]

Lets not forget Mario balotelli who manages to be both interesting and thick.

[super_realist]

SR your talking absoloute rubbish. Its your own perceived view of people that you need to work on. Its so easy for you to have a go. It couldnt be further from the truth. In spainish clubs they still call black collegues negritos and stuff!! you obviously have no idea what other countries footballers are like ..

Of course, John Terry would never use a racist term would he?

Compare your average UK player with someone like Henrik Larsson or Ruud Gullit.

They look like intellectual giants in comparison.

[Crimey]

SR your talking absoloute rubbish. Its your own perceived view of people that you need to work on. Its so easy for you to have a go. It couldnt be further from the truth. In spainish clubs they still call black collegues negritos and stuff!! you obviously have no idea what other countries footballers are like ..

That's because 'negrito' isn't supposed to be an offensive term.

but it is to the many black players- as i said its about perception. others may think gerrard and cole are offensive, when they arnt- they are not supposed to be offensive...

It's the context in which the word is said rather than the word itself which is offensive. Glen Johnson has been happily called 'negrito' and I'm sure many other black players have as well.

[GSC]

What about the likes of Samir Nasri who swears at journalists?

[Stella]

How many English players go abroad then? When England were a pretty good national team in the late 70s and 80s, most of the top players were playing abroad, like Keegan, Lineker, Glenn Hoddle etc.

hey, we were pretty poor in the late seventies and early 80's.

[Crimey]

In a sudden change of topic....

does anybody else think Balotelli's performance last night has been overrated? He got into some good positions, but I thought he failed to finish his chances and blew a couple of good positions by blasting it over the bar. I think Di Natale was a much better option, I imagine he'd have finished at least one of the chances Balotelli had.

[super_realist]

I think Joe Hart is also pretty over-rated.

[mystiroakey]

SR your talking absoloute rubbish. Its your own perceived view of people that you need to work on. Its so easy for you to have a go. It couldnt be further from the truth. In spainish clubs they still call black collegues negritos and stuff!! you obviously have no idea what other countries footballers are like ..

That's because 'negrito' isn't supposed to be an offensive term.

but it is to the many black players- as i said its about perception. others may think gerrard and cole are offensive, when they arnt- they are not supposed to be offensive...

It's the context in which the word is said rather than the word itself which is offensive. Glen Johnson has been happily called 'negrito' and I'm sure many other black players have as well.

all you are doing is highlighting the point- we in this country are more accepting to other cultures in all ways..we would call black people friendly names based on there colour years ago- we have past that now, and so will terms like negrito in the future. Our players accents can seem thick and uncultured to others as well. its all about perception

[super_realist]

Was Steven Gerrard just being ironic/clever then when asked what his favourite cheese was and he answered "Ehhhhhhhh, melted"

He makes an Andy Murray interview look like a Parkinson interview.

[mystiroakey]

lol good comment(not sure to be honest)..the problem with england SR is that our working class population plays more football than other middle class up- we all know this. But they are who there are and as long as they try there best thats all i can ask.. English players obviously come across a certain way to many but lets be clear on this alot of that is to do with a perceived view of the English- rather than the English themselves

[super_realist]

Fair enough, for every John Terry or Steven Gerrard there is a David James or Pat Nevin.

[mystiroakey]

I have a feeling we will be seeing more english players going to france if there league starts getting bigger(psg's owner could kick start that)

[super_realist]

Wouldn't be a bad thing Oakey, Joe Cole (one of the more likeable and bright English players) seems to have enjoyed it.

[mystiroakey]

What is to note is that our black players never seem to go anywhere- and yet we have such a high percentage of black players.. obviously spain isnt gonna be there preferred choice- but france on the other hand!!

[Hibbz]

Luther Blissett, Paul Elliott, Paul Ince.

[super_realist]

What is to note is that our black players never seem to go anywhere- and yet we have such a high percentage of black players.. obviously spain isnt gonna be there preferred choice- but france on the other hand!!

Oakey, nothing to do with being black. UK players barely travel at all. Especially these days.

Can you think of 5 who play abroad?

[dummy_half]

I've long thought that a number of English players would benefit from playng abroad, but it is something that we've never had a strong history of doing:
60s - Greaves and Charles (yes I know he was Welsh, but a product of English football) played in Italy. Greaves for a few months, Charles long enough to become a Juve legend.

70s - Keegan played in Germany. Otherwise, can't think of any top players spending much time abroad

80s - Hoddle, Waddle in France, but again can't think of many others before Lineker in the late 80s at Barca (Laurie Cunningham was at Real Madrid, but he hardly played for England).

90s - A bit of a 'boom' time, with Italy being the place to be for high wages. Gazza, Ince, Platt, Des Walker all spent time in Serie A.

00s - The EPL almost became the 'world league', offering the best wages other than perhaps the big 2 in Spain. Beckham, Owen, Woodgate and McManamanamanaman all had some time at Real Madrid, with varying success, but otherwise there has been little incentive for England players to look to broaden their horizons.

Obviously, now we have Joe Cole playing in France, but otherwise the players likely to get near England selection are concentrated in the 5 or 6 big EPL teams.

The interesting thing is that very few defenders in particular have given it a go abroad (Walker and Woodgate being the only two I can recall). Something that really needs to be addressed, as the southern European leagues place more emphasis on even the defenders being decent players with the ball at their feet, which would probably have made our guys (Rio for one) better players in the long run.

The problem is though that the EPL is run for the benefit of the clubs involved, not for the benefit of the national side, and unlike rugby and cricket the structure of the game does not allow for a system of 'central contracting' that would improve the quality of the national side. All the FA can really do is to ensure that young player development is done as effectively as possible (both at kids level and when the club academies take over), which is an area where they do seem to have improved in the last 10 years or so, but which is only just beginning to bear fruit at the highest level of the game.

[mystiroakey]

SR what you talking about dude- i am talking about our black players at the moment- obviously the black population wouldnt want to go to spain, its just the way it is..

I know we dont have many full stop- but when i started thinking about all the english that play or have played abroad i couldnt think of many black palyers at all, paul ince is the only one i can remeber

[Stella]

Blissett went to Milan bit didn't they buy him by mistake or is that just a myth?

[mystiroakey]

lol how can they buy someone by mistake!!!

[super_realist]

Jermaine Pennant, Gary Charles, Stan Collymore and Jay Bothroyd played abroad too, so you can add that to Paul Ince, Luther Blisset and Paul Elliot.
That's probably as many as players from any other ethnicity in the last generation.

I was talking about UK players not moving abroad in general, I don't see how their colour has made them any less likely to move, when there is no real culture of UK players playing abroad in the first place anyway. It's not as if we've had 200 white players playing in Spain, Germany and Italy and no black players. There are hardly any of any "colour"

[Stella]

lol how can they buy someone by mistake!!!

Well, I heard they scouted him once and watched the wrong player. All very unlikely I know! They did pay well over the odds I seem to remember and he was pretty average compared to the great strikers of that time.

[Stella]

Taken from Wiki

He subsequently moved to A.C. Milan for £1 million in June 1983, but he was not as successful as he had been in England, scoring only five goals in 30 appearances. It has since been rumoured that A.C. Milan confused him with his Watford teammate John Barnes.[4] However Italian football journalist Gabriele Marcotti believes this story is untrue. "There are two main reason for which I think it's not true," he says. "First, even the most ignorant and provincial person could see that Blissett and Barnes looked absoutely nothing alike. Second, the fact is that at that time Milan were looking for an out-and-out goalscorer and Barnes just wasn't that type of player."[5] "No matter how much money you have here", Blissett famously complained about Italy, "you can't seem to get Rice Krispies."

Seems I was right...............well nearly

[MtotheC's Wrasslin Biatch]

Watford fan 'ere. I believe Luther Blissett was scouted by AC Milan by mistake when it was intended to be John Barnes they were looking at. I don't think it got as far as the signing being a mistake though. I think the scout liked what they saw in Luther Blissett so changed the transfer target

That's the legend anyway

[mystiroakey]

Jermaine Pennant, Gary Charles, Stan Collymore and Jay Bothroyd played abroad too, so you can add that to Paul Ince, Luther Blisset and Paul Elliot.
That's probably as many as players from any other ethnicity in the last generation.

I was talking about UK players not moving abroad in general, I don't see how their colour has made them any less likely to move, when there is no real culture of UK players playing abroad in the first place anyway. It's not as if we've had 200 white players playing in Spain, Germany and Italy and no black players. There are hardly any of any "colour"

SR what teams do our top players want to go to today!! bar the top 6 prem clubs

its a simple question.

and a simple answer- barca and real only.

you can fill in the blanks

its about the prem or the spainish league at the moment. we cant really have a pop at players not going to lesser leagues .

However I have a feeling the french could be joining the party soon enough and i also have a feeling that it could be much more appealing for all of our players

[mystiroakey]

hahah he could have been bought by mistake- lols

[super_realist]

So why don't UK players want to sign for teams like Dortmund, Valencia, Milan, Bayern etc.

If they were really serious about winning something internationally, how are they any better off staying at deadbeat teams like Liverpool, Arsenal or Spurs? Surely it would be better for them to play in better teams in leagues with a more continental style?

Not to mention that no UK players are good enough for Real/Barca.

[Guest]

So why don't UK players want to sign for teams like Dortmund, Valencia, Milan, Bayern etc.

If they were really serious about winning something internationally, how are they any better off staying at deadbeat teams like Liverpool, Arsenal or Spurs? Surely it would be better for them to play in better teams in leagues with a more continental style?

Not to mention that no UK players are good enough for Real/Barca.

I dunno. I'd fancy Gareth Bale to make either first team but that's about it.

[mystiroakey]

Yep they are not good enough to get in those two sides- thats one of my points.

I dont understand why you think there would go to dortmond or valencia to improve there international success-That doesnt add up and its not even there responisbilty

[super_realist]

Oakey, I thought we'd decided that while the Premiership is a good league, the style of play isn't suited to international football. Part of the reason why the England team (of which 100% play in the Premiership) routinely fail at tournaments.

Vis a vis, the likes of Wilshire, Baines , Carrol, Gerrard, Defoe etc would be better off at Dortmund, Valencia, Milan, Inter, Juve or Bayern because A) They would be playing a style similar to what they'll face in international football and B) More likely to win something than they would at Arsenal or Spurs.

If they aren't prepared to play/train in a style which produces international success, then they shouldn't be surprised to get knocked out every two years at the QF stage should they.

Of course it's their responsibility.

[GSC]

I think only 1 of the starting Italian 11 played abroad, Balotelli.

Ditto for the Spanish 11 that played vs France

[super_realist]

I think only 1 of the starting Italian 11 played abroad, Balotelli.

Ditto for the Spanish 11 that played vs France

and their leagues are played in a style in which successful international football teams play, neither the Premiership or England play this way, hence why Spain, Italy and Germany win and why England don't.

The only team that do play continentally are Arsenal and Swansea, and what have they won, also neither team has many English in their ranks.

[Josiah Maiestas]

Sadly graeme, those 2 countries play football at the right pace, calm and slowly. All you see in the english leagues are route 1 boot and run, players tiring themselves out before half time, no intelligence at all...

[Sponsored content]