Scotland XV for Autumn Internationals

First topic message reminder :

Right let's get down to business shall we?!

9/11/13
Scotland vs Japan
KO - 2.30pm

17/11/13
Scotland vs South Africa
KO - 3pm

23/11/13
Scotland vs Australia
KO - 6pm

First of all, the schedule for these three matches is super. Unlike last few years, Scotland will play a less formidable team first before two tough matches against SA and Aus. SA are on a roll at the moment and will be a good, stern test for Scotland before Australia. Injuries may be an issue however as we saw in the summer.

If Scotland beat Australia that will make it 3 wins in a row vs the Wallabies which would be a fantastic achievement. But obviously wins over any of these three teams will be great.

Players

Backs M Bennett (Glasgow), C Cusiter (Glasgow), De Luca (Edinburgh), A Dunbar (Glasgow), M Evans (Castres), T Heathcote (Bath), R Jackson (Glasgow), S Lamont (Glasgow), G Laidlaw (Edinburgh), S Maitland (Glasgow), H Pyrgos (Glasgow), M Scott (Edinburgh), T Seymour (Glasgow), D Taylor (Saracens), G Tonks (Edinburgh), T Visser (Edinburgh), D Weir (Glasgow).
Forwards J Barclay (Scarlets), J Beattie (Montpellier), K Brown (Saracens), B Cowan (London Irish), G Cross (Edinburgh), D Denton (Edinburgh), A Dickinson (Edinburgh), R Ford (Edinburgh), C Fusaro (Glasgow), G Gilchrist (Edinburgh) R Grant (Glasgow), J Gray (Glasgow), R Gray (Castres), J Hamilton (Montpellier), R Harley (Glasgow), A Kellock (Glasgow), S Lawson (Newcastle), K Low (London Irish), M Low (Glasgow), P MacArthur (Glasgow), E Murray (Worcester), A Strokosch (Perpignan), T Swinson (Glasgow), J Welsh (Glasgow)

*Sorry for not updating this sooner. My girlfriend and I broke up a few weeks ago after four and a half years, three living together. I've been in a pretty bad place. However, I'm getting better and looking forward to these games so I'll continue to contribute when I can

Can't blame him if he does go for them - we didn't exactly push the boat out to help his career if he ended up going to Perpignan.

Then again, neither did Italy!

If he's getting gametime for Perpignan he must be a decent player - can't let these kind of players go.

Will be interesting to see if he is in the Scotland AI squad!

Roma – Prende il via da Milano, domani all'ora di pranzo, la stagione 13/14 dell'Italrugby.

Gli Azzurri di Jacques Brunel, dopo il doppio successo in Rabodirect PRO12 colto ieri da Benetton Treviso e Zebre, si ritroveranno nel capoluogo lombardo per una giornata di riunioni collettive ed individuali per pianificare gli impegni agonistici che inizieranno il 9 novembre con il Cariparma Test Match di Torino contro l'Australia per poi proseguire con le altre sfide autunnali contro Fiji (Cremona, 16 novembre) e Argentina (Roma Olimpico, 23 novembre), l'RBS 6 Nazioni 2014 ed il tour estivo di giugno nel Pacifico del Sud.

Non sono previsti, durante il raduno milanese, allenamenti sul campo. Lunedì pomeriggio gli atleti faranno rientro ai Club d'appartenenza.

Questa la lista dei convocati e degli invitati al raduno:

Matias AGUERO (Zebre Rugby, 19 caps)

Robert BARBIERI (Benetton Treviso, 30 caps)

Mauro BERGAMASCO (Zebre Rugby, 94 caps)

Mirco BERGAMASCO (Vea-FemiCZ Rovigo, 89 caps)

Valerio BERNABO’ (Benetton Treviso, 21 caps)

Marco BORTOLAMI (Zebre Rugby, 97 caps)

Tobias BOTES (Benetton Treviso, 16 caps)

Alberto CHILLON (Zebre Rugby, 1 cap)*

Lorenzo CITTADINI (Benetton Treviso, 24 caps)

Alberto DE MARCHI (Benetton Treviso, 12 caps)

Alberto DI BERNARDO (Benetton Treviso, 3 caps)

Simone FAVARO (Benetton Treviso, 21 caps)*

Gonzalo GARCIA (Zebre Rugby, 29 caps)

Quintin GELDENHUYS (Zebre Rugby, 38 caps)

Leonardo GHIRALDINI (Benetton Treviso, 56 caps)

Davide GIAZZON (Zebre Rugby, 12 caps)

Edoardo GORI (Benetton Treviso, 26 caps)*

Tommaso IANNONE (Zebre Rugby, 3 caps)*

Andrea MANICI (Zebre Rugby, 1 cap)*

Luke MCLEAN (Benetton Treviso, 49 caps)

Francesco MINTO (Benetton Treviso, 7 caps)

Luca MORISI (Benetton Treviso, 4 caps)*

Luciano ORQUERA (Zebre Rugby, 35 caps)

Antonio PAVANELLO (Benetton Treviso, 21 caps)

Michele RIZZO (Benetton Treviso, 8 caps)

Leonardo SARTO (Zebre Rugby, 1 cap)*

Alberto SGARBI (Benetton Treviso, 26 caps)

Giovambattista VENDITTI (Zebre Rugby, 17 caps)*

Ratu Manoa Seru VOSAWAI (Benetton Treviso, 12 caps)

Alessandro ZANNI (Benetton Treviso, 77 caps)

invitati: Tommaso BENVENUTI (USAP Perpignan, 28 caps)*, Gonzalo CANALE (Stade Rochelais, 84 caps), Martin CASTROGIOVANNI (Toulon RC, 98 caps), Leandro CEDARO (Stade Rochelais, 1 cap), Paul DERBYSHIRE (Benetton Treviso, 20 caps), Joshua FURNO (Biarritz Olympique, 10 caps), Andrea MASI (London Wasps, 80 caps), Sergio PARISSE (Stade Francais, 98 caps)

*è/è stato membro dell’Accademia FIR “Ivan Francescato”

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Captain_Sensible wrote:Tommy Allan has been called into the Italy squad for the AIs.

 

Is he Italian??

That's the guy that's played for Perpignan isn't ir? Can't have him going to the Italians!

His mother is, hence 'Tommaso' - boat missed if it's true  

Yep. Sad news, but not a disaster. He must have seen Jackson, Weir, Heathcote, Leonard and Horne ahead of him on the one hand, and Kris Burton and Orquera on the other hand - doesn't take a genius to work out where he's got the better chance of getting an international cap or caps.

So this is what it feels like to be Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, Holland etc...!

Italy coach Jacques Brunel has called three uncapped players into his 32-man squad for the November test matches.

Fly-half Tommaso Allan and centre Michele Campagnaro were named in the national squad for the first time and winger Ruggero Trevisan has also been selected.

Paul Derbyshire, Quintin Geldenhuys, Andrea Masi and Francesco Minto were all ruled out by injury.

Forwards Martin Castrogiovanni, Marco Bortolami and Sergio Parisse are all in line to make their 100th appearances for Italy during the November series which starts against Australia and includes matches against Fiji and Argentina.

Forwards: Matias Aguero, Martin Castrogiovanni, Lorenzo Cittadini, Michele Rizzo, Leonardo Ghiraldini, Davide Giazzon, Andrea Manici, Valerio Bernabo, Marco Bortolami, Joshua Furno, Antonio Pavanello, Robert Barbieri, Mauro Bergamasco, Simone Favaro, Sergio Parisse (captain), Manoa Vosawai, Alessandro Zanni

Backs: Tobias Botes, Alberto Chillon, Tommaso Allan, Alberto Di Bernado, Luciano Orquera, Michele Campagnaro, Gonzalo Canale, Gonzalo Garcia, Luca Morisi, Alberto Sgarbi, Tommaso Benvenuti, Tommaso Iannone, Luke McLean, Leonardo Sarto, Ruggero Trevisan, Alberto De Marchi, Edoardo Gori, Giovambattista Venditti

Captain_Sensible wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Captain_Sensible wrote:Tommy Allan has been called into the Italy squad for the AIs.

 

Is he Italian??

That's the guy that's played for Perpignan isn't ir? Can't have him going to the Italians!

His mother is, hence 'Tommaso' - boat missed if it's true  

Yep. Sad news, but not a disaster. He must have seen Jackson, Weir, Heathcote, Leonard and Horne ahead of him on the one hand, and Kris Burton and Orquera on the other hand - doesn't take a genius to work out where he's got the better chance of getting an international cap or caps.

Very true - wish him all the best

Does 'called up' mean he has accepted it? Should we assume that the Italian Union asked him if he was up for it first?

Would be pretty gutting to see him lining up against us!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Captain_Sensible wrote:Tommy Allan has been called into the Italy squad for the AIs.

 

Is he Italian??

That's the guy that's played for Perpignan isn't ir? Can't have him going to the Italians!

His mother is, hence 'Tommaso' - boat missed if it's true  

Oh my god, that's awful news. I really had my eye on him to be challenging for the 10 shirt. That's fecked my day, that. Allan's mum played rugby for Italy, incidentally, so I guess that it was always on the cards.

His uncle played rugby for Scotland tho...





































... and South Africa - a-hem

After appearing with the U20s at this summer's JWC he wasn't offered an EDP contract for either pro-district, so perhaps it is less of a loss than it would seem (altho I'm sure that Embra would welcome him with open arms right now)

Surely there is no way that someone who has played for Scotland at U17, U18 and U20 level and has come through the Western Province and Perpignan age group systems should be allowed to take full international honours elsewhere? What the feck are Edinburgh doing with Piers Doublesurname, or Glasgow with Scott 'Suspiciously Old' Wight for that matter?
 
Sorry, but that's a big opportunity missed. Have we learned nothing from the All Blacks? Just get them off the wish list for other international teams first. We did it with Tom Heathcote...

So was he not good enough to get an EDP contract OR, has our ability to manage and develop our limited pool of players just been kicked in the teeth by a forward looking Italian rugby union. I fear the latter for some reason,  

Going from being dumped by the sru to perpignan first team in a season is pretty good - someons made s mess of this somewhere!

George Carlin wrote:Surely there is no way that someone who has played for Scotland at U17, U18 and U20 level and has come through the Western Province and Perpignan age group systems should be allowed to take full international honours elsewhere? What the feck are Edinburgh doing with Piers Doublesurname, or Glasgow with Scott 'Suspiciously Old' Wight for that matter?
 
Sorry, but that's a big opportunity missed. Have we learned nothing from the All Blacks? Just get them off the wish list for other international teams first. We did it with Tom Heathcote...

GC, I don't think that he did come thru the Perp age group system, but you're absolutely correct about Two FirstNames, and perhaps he simply didn't want to be behind Meatball and Rhubarb at Glasgow and preferred to be on the bench straight away for Perpignan

RDW_Scotland wrote:Going from being dumped by the sru to perpignan first team in a season is pretty good - someons made s mess of this somewhere!

To be fair, RDW, he's gotten slightly lucky due to other players' injuries, but fair play to him for taking his chances

We really can't afford to lose players like this. We need to give the A team more fixtures to lock in players - Shingler style.

He hasn't been capped yet.

What would happen if Johnson included him in his AIs squad ahead of Heathcote?  

Personally I'd love to see the fallout from that happening.

Maybe Mr Strokosch should have a quiet word in his ear.

It's good for Italy and somehow for 6N rugby. I like Orquera but he's not exactly reliable and a good tackler. This is a guy who is already solid if not spectacular and can kick. By the way he only started once when USAP were rotating.
Will bring more options to Italy than he would have for Scotland in the short term.
Plus it prevents France from capping him in 3 years time

whocares wrote:It's good for Italy and somehow for 6N rugby. I like Orquera but he's not exactly reliable and a good tackler. This is a guy who is already solid if not spectacular and can kick. By the way he only started once when USAP were rotating.
Will bring more options to Italy than he would have for Scotland in the short term.
Plus it prevents France from capping him in 3 years time

I guess I'm just not mature enough for that kind of altriusm.

Maybe if I got to stare at beautiful young Parisienne women every day like WhoCares I would be a better person...

Very shocked at Tommy's call up to the Italy squad. Not because he isn't a good player but because of the total inept goings on at the SRU. Tommy Allan is one seriously good player and is the 10 Scotland have been crying out for for years. If he keeps playing like he is he would be number 1 fly half in the next year or so for Scotland.

What on earth are the SRU doing bringing in all these average foreign players and letting someone of this calibre slip through their grasps.

Hopefully the SRU now counter Italy's call up and call him into the Scotland squad otherwise this will be one of the biggest failings by the SRU ever and that is after some massive blunders by them!

Majestic83 wrote:Very shocked at Tommy's call up to the Italy squad. Not because he isn't a good player but because of the total inept goings on at the SRU. Tommy Allan is one seriously good player and is the 10 Scotland have been crying out for for years. If he keeps playing like he is he would be number 1 fly half in the next year or so for Scotland.

What on earth are the SRU doing bringing in all these average foreign players and letting someone of this calibre slip through their grasps.

Hopefully the SRU now counter Italy's call up and call him into the Scotland squad otherwise this will be one of the biggest failings by the SRU ever and that is after some massive blunders by them!

A wee touch of the hyperbole there, Maj?

Not really. He is that good a player. Out played Sexton the other week and has had a few other impressive performances for Perpignan. He was also a stand out for Scotland U20 over the past year and really looked the real deal.

The chat I have heard from Perpignan is that he is going to get more and more game time over the next few months and will only get better.

If he puts in good performances over the next few months it wouldn't take much for him to get the Scotland fly half spot! Jackson is too inconsistent, Weir could potentially be a very good 10 but hasn't been able to string a good run of games together, Leonard is poor, Heathcote is good but is not in favour at Bath, Godman has been tried and the other promising talent is Lee Millar who again the SRU seem to have taken not much notice off!

No word from him on Twitter yet - lots of people have asked the sru if they were aware of it too!

Why have so many people written Leonard off already?

Always been impressed personally, considering he's still 21 and had little game time in the last 12/18 months.

Big call by Allen to choose Italy over Scotland! He is an unproven player as of now so no loss until he performs well.

I think Leonard has a a lot of potential. Definitely a player who could do well.

I had totally forgotten about Tommy Allan, this is a real shock. Firstly, I'd like to know a little more info. SRU are surely going to have to say something about this, fans in the know will be raging. If He really wanted to play for Italy why hasn't he been playing in their U20's etc? I feel like the SRU haven't given him enough faith/reassurance that he'll be in the mix to play at 10 for Scotland. So I guess my question is, have the SRU put their money on the wrong horse? Heathcote was playing regular games for Bath last year, this year Ford is playing really well for them. Perhaps Allan should have been on the SA tour last summer.

Disappointed to hear the news about Allan. Had heard good things about him. Maybe Scott Johnson can text Strockosh telling him to stuff Allan into his suitcase before he heads over for the AI's!?

Arghhhhh....
Just been on to the Italian Rugby Unions website, and can't help but feel that they're rather taking the urine here. On the front page there's a photo of Tommy playing FOR Scotland, AGAINST Italy!!!!!
  

Strokosh tweeted about it saying 'he's a good kid and I'm sure he'll make the right decision' followed by a fist icon!

The SRU have tweeted a few fans this morning who have been complaining about the Tommy Allan situation.
They have said the SRU have been monitoring Allan for a while now and have spoken to him as recently as the summer and are looking to speak to him again to seek clarification on his position!

The SRU should have been doing a lot more than that and had him persuaded along time ago to be tied to Scotland!

Al Strokosh has also tweeted after a few bits of banter between the perpignan players about it, he has said that Allan is a good kid but he is sure he will make the right decision follwed by a clenched fist image!
Hopefully Stroker can have a word!

bsando wrote:I think Leonard has a a lot of potential. Definitely a player who could do well.

I had totally forgotten about Tommy Allan, this is a real shock. Firstly, I'd like to know a little more info. SRU are surely going to have to say something about this, fans in the know will be raging. If He really wanted to play for Italy why hasn't he been playing in their U20's etc? I feel like the SRU haven't given him enough faith/reassurance that he'll be in the mix to play at 10 for Scotland. So I guess my question is, have the SRU put their money on the wrong horse? Heathcote was playing regular games for Bath last year, this year Ford is playing really well for them. Perhaps Allan should have been on the SA tour last summer.

Really? Haven't been that impressed with his MFL performances and now was the time for him to grab his chance (that's not to say, btw, that their malaise has all been Leonard's fault)

Majestic83 wrote:The SRU have tweeted a few fans this morning who have been complaining about the Tommy Allan situation.
They have said the SRU have been monitoring Allan for a while now and have spoken to him as recently as the summer and are looking to speak to him again to seek clarification on his position!

I think that Tommy's position is pretty fricking clear at the moment. Another SRU brain fade.

Majestic83 wrote:The SRU have tweeted a few fans this morning who have been complaining about the Tommy Allan situation.
They have said the SRU have been monitoring Allan for a while now and have spoken to him as recently as the summer and are looking to speak to him again to seek clarification on his position!

The SRU should have been doing a lot more than that and had him persuaded along time ago to be tied to Scotland!

You think? I doubt other unions contact every former junior international once a week to say "Hey buddy, just so you know, you're still in the frame". He needs to prove himself, after all he's only played 1 game of pro rugby!!! Lee Millar, a superior fly half, moved to London Scottish to get extra game time.

Italy are being deeply cheeky playing a bloke who is untried and untested. Now if he was a proud Scotsman who would have told them to jog on, he clearly is not. It's hardly as if he'd have to wait long to get capped for Scotland if he stepped up at Perpignan and dislodged James Hook.

However right this second he's at least 7th in line for the Scotland 10 berth behind Jackson, Weir, Heathcote, Hogg, Laidlaw and Millar - all of whom have played about 10x more pro rugby than him.

He clearly is an impatient young man who wants to play internationally before he even has a perm club position, and doesn't care who he does it for. That's fine, we have enough mercenaries who will switch allegiances to get a cap and at least they tend to have Super Rugby experience (ala Nel, Strauss and Maitland) as opposed to one measly game for Perpignan.

Ultimately if he wants to play for Italy than fair doos, let him go.

Agree completely with you there madmaccas

madmaccas wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:The SRU have tweeted a few fans this morning who have been complaining about the Tommy Allan situation.
They have said the SRU have been monitoring Allan for a while now and have spoken to him as recently as the summer and are looking to speak to him again to seek clarification on his position!

The SRU should have been doing a lot more than that and had him persuaded along time ago to be tied to Scotland!

You think? I doubt other unions contact every former junior international once a week to say "Hey buddy, just so you know, you're still in the frame". He needs to prove himself, after all he's only played 1 game of pro rugby!!! Lee Millar, a superior fly half, moved to London Scottish to get extra game time.

Italy are being deeply cheeky playing a bloke who is untried and untested. Now if he was a proud Scotsman who would have told them to jog on, he clearly is not. It's hardly as if he'd have to wait long to get capped for Scotland if he stepped up at Perpignan and dislodged James Hook.

However right this second he's at least 7th in line for the Scotland 10 berth behind Jackson, Weir, Heathcote, Hogg, Laidlaw and Millar - all of whom have played about 10x more pro rugby than him.

He clearly is an impatient young man who wants to play internationally before he even has a perm club position, and doesn't care who he does it for. That's fine, we have enough mercenaries who will switch allegiances to get a cap and at least they tend to have Super Rugby experience (ala Nel, Strauss and Maitland) as opposed to one measly game for Perpignan.

Ultimately if he wants to play for Italy than fair doos, let him go.

Let's not include positional changes? And it isn't Hook who has been the obstacle, rather Camille Lopez

madmaccas wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:The SRU have tweeted a few fans this morning who have been complaining about the Tommy Allan situation.
They have said the SRU have been monitoring Allan for a while now and have spoken to him as recently as the summer and are looking to speak to him again to seek clarification on his position!

The SRU should have been doing a lot more than that and had him persuaded along time ago to be tied to Scotland!

You think? I doubt other unions contact every former junior international once a week to say "Hey buddy, just so you know, you're still in the frame". He needs to prove himself, after all he's only played 1 game of pro rugby!!! Lee Millar, a superior fly half, moved to London Scottish to get extra game time.

Italy are being deeply cheeky playing a bloke who is untried and untested. Now if he was a proud Scotsman who would have told them to jog on, he clearly is not. It's hardly as if he'd have to wait long to get capped for Scotland if he stepped up at Perpignan and dislodged James Hook.

However right this second he's at least 7th in line for the Scotland 10 berth behind Jackson, Weir, Heathcote, Hogg, Laidlaw and Millar - all of whom have played about 10x more pro rugby than him.

He clearly is an impatient young man who wants to play internationally before he even has a perm club position, and doesn't care who he does it for. That's fine, we have enough mercenaries who will switch allegiances to get a cap and at least they tend to have Super Rugby experience (ala Nel, Strauss and Maitland) as opposed to one measly game for Perpignan.

Ultimately if he wants to play for Italy than fair doos, let him go.

Yes the major unions will be in constant contact with up and coming players. They will be asking them for videos of all their recent matched, asking them how they feel they are performing etc. Having experienced this with past team mates down when I was playing in England this is what the RFU do and I also know the Australian rugby union are in constant contact with up and coming players who they see as being future international players.

Something it seems the SRU aren't very good at, obviously not all the players from the U20s are going to be future caps but it is pretty obvious to most who the potential players are and if the SRU haven't done much to track him then fair play to Tommy for going to Italy!

Majestic83 wrote:

madmaccas wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:The SRU have tweeted a few fans this morning who have been complaining about the Tommy Allan situation.
They have said the SRU have been monitoring Allan for a while now and have spoken to him as recently as the summer and are looking to speak to him again to seek clarification on his position!

The SRU should have been doing a lot more than that and had him persuaded along time ago to be tied to Scotland!

You think? I doubt other unions contact every former junior international once a week to say "Hey buddy, just so you know, you're still in the frame". He needs to prove himself, after all he's only played 1 game of pro rugby!!! Lee Millar, a superior fly half, moved to London Scottish to get extra game time.

Italy are being deeply cheeky playing a bloke who is untried and untested. Now if he was a proud Scotsman who would have told them to jog on, he clearly is not. It's hardly as if he'd have to wait long to get capped for Scotland if he stepped up at Perpignan and dislodged James Hook.

However right this second he's at least 7th in line for the Scotland 10 berth behind Jackson, Weir, Heathcote, Hogg, Laidlaw and Millar - all of whom have played about 10x more pro rugby than him.

He clearly is an impatient young man who wants to play internationally before he even has a perm club position, and doesn't care who he does it for. That's fine, we have enough mercenaries who will switch allegiances to get a cap and at least they tend to have Super Rugby experience (ala Nel, Strauss and Maitland) as opposed to one measly game for Perpignan.

Ultimately if he wants to play for Italy than fair doos, let him go.

Yes the major unions will be in constant contact with up and coming players. They will be asking them for videos of all their recent matched, asking them how they feel they are performing etc. Having experienced this with past team mates down when I was playing in England this is what the RFU do and I also know the Australian rugby union are in constant contact with up and coming players who they see as being future international players.

Something it seems the SRU aren't very good at, obviously not all the players from the U20s are going to be future caps but it is pretty obvious to most who the potential players are and if the SRU haven't done much to track him then fair play to Tommy for going to Italy!

Of course they're keeping an eye on him, but those videos wouldn't be very long in Allan's case now would they! If they contacted him over the summer (just over a month ago) then he's only had one game in the interim. What are they supposed to say "Hey Tommy, know you've not been playing but fancy another chat? Seen any good films recently? How are your bowel movements? Make it quick though, I've got another 300 players to check in on today. p.s I've posted a blue and white friendship bracelet to you".

He's just started. No-one would have predicted that Italy would cap him after just one pro game.

If you're implying that he's chosen Italy because he didn't 'feel the love' from the SRU, then he's more immature and spoilt than his limited years. Most Scotsmen, myself included, would give their eye teeth to don the thistle. We wouldn't throw our toys out the pram because we didn't get picked after one solitary pro game.

Madmaccas, agree with most of that (not sure if there's the evidence to say Millar is superior but maybe you've seen more of him than me), it's quite possible that the SRU have been keeping in touch with him, and Italy probably have too. Of course the SRU should not be promising future caps to him without knowing how his career is going to go from here, and they definitely should not be capping him now to tie him to us (although that is what happened with Heathcote).

It is of course also possible for someone with a mixed background such as his to be both a proud Scotsman AND a proud Italian, and who are we to judge? The only people being a touch cynical here are possibly the Italians in trying to cap him early to tie him in, but at the end of the day they are entitled to do it and we have done the same in the past.

It might be nice if he changed his mind but it seems unlikely and would leave a sour taste in some ways too.

Pat_Mustard wrote:Madmaccas, agree with most of that (not sure if there's the evidence to say Millar is superior but maybe you've seen more of him than me), it's quite possible that the SRU have been keeping in touch with him, and Italy probably have too. Of course the SRU should not be promising future caps to him without knowing how his career is going to go from here, and they definitely should not be capping him now to tie him to us (although that is what happened with Heathcote).

It is of course also possible for someone with a mixed background such as his to be both a proud Scotsman AND a proud Italian, and who are we to judge? The only people being a touch cynical here are possibly the Italians in trying to cap him early to tie him in, but at the end of the day they are entitled to do it and we have done the same in the past.

It might be nice if he changed his mind but it seems unlikely and would leave a sour taste in some ways too.

Oh yeah I wholeheartedly agree. We'd, as a rugby nation, be intensely hypercritical to criticise a player with mixed heritage choosing one side over another - how many of our best players were developed in England over the last century! The fact that London Scottish has, still to this day, produced more Scotland caps and captains than any other club just goes to show that.

If he feels more Italian than Scottish then fair doos, as I said let him go and wish him well.

madmaccas wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:

madmaccas wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:The SRU have tweeted a few fans this morning who have been complaining about the Tommy Allan situation.
They have said the SRU have been monitoring Allan for a while now and have spoken to him as recently as the summer and are looking to speak to him again to seek clarification on his position!

The SRU should have been doing a lot more than that and had him persuaded along time ago to be tied to Scotland!

You think? I doubt other unions contact every former junior international once a week to say "Hey buddy, just so you know, you're still in the frame". He needs to prove himself, after all he's only played 1 game of pro rugby!!! Lee Millar, a superior fly half, moved to London Scottish to get extra game time.

Italy are being deeply cheeky playing a bloke who is untried and untested. Now if he was a proud Scotsman who would have told them to jog on, he clearly is not. It's hardly as if he'd have to wait long to get capped for Scotland if he stepped up at Perpignan and dislodged James Hook.

However right this second he's at least 7th in line for the Scotland 10 berth behind Jackson, Weir, Heathcote, Hogg, Laidlaw and Millar - all of whom have played about 10x more pro rugby than him.

He clearly is an impatient young man who wants to play internationally before he even has a perm club position, and doesn't care who he does it for. That's fine, we have enough mercenaries who will switch allegiances to get a cap and at least they tend to have Super Rugby experience (ala Nel, Strauss and Maitland) as opposed to one measly game for Perpignan.

Ultimately if he wants to play for Italy than fair doos, let him go.

Yes the major unions will be in constant contact with up and coming players. They will be asking them for videos of all their recent matched, asking them how they feel they are performing etc. Having experienced this with past team mates down when I was playing in England this is what the RFU do and I also know the Australian rugby union are in constant contact with up and coming players who they see as being future international players.

Something it seems the SRU aren't very good at, obviously not all the players from the U20s are going to be future caps but it is pretty obvious to most who the potential players are and if the SRU haven't done much to track him then fair play to Tommy for going to Italy!

Of course they're keeping an eye on him, but those videos wouldn't be very long in Allan's case now would they! If they contacted him over the summer (just over a month ago) then he's only had one game in the interim. What are they supposed to say "Hey Tommy, know you've not been playing but fancy another chat? Seen any good films recently? How are your bowel movements? Make it quick though, I've got another 300 players to check in on today. p.s I've posted a blue and white friendship bracelet to you".

He's just started. No-one would have predicted that Italy would cap him after just one pro game.

If you're implying that he's chosen Italy because he didn't 'feel the love' from the SRU, then he's more immature and spoilt than his limited years. Most Scotsmen, myself included, would give their eye teeth to don the thistle. We wouldn't throw our toys out the pram because we didn't get picked after one solitary pro game.

As I have said already the major unions who are successful or had success would be contacting the promising players on a weekly basis. Speaking to them about a range of things like how their training is going, how they are developing, how their goal kicking is, things like that. From what I believe it is not something the SRU do very well with the young prospects that are coming through.
Video wise then yes he has only had one senior pro game but he has played many other games for the Perpignan 2nd team and the espoirs which are all very high standard games and plenty of detail could have been spotted from these videos as well.

Saying that no one could have predicted Italy would pick him now is maybe a Scottish problem towards rugby in that there is no forward thinking or planning! Of course they should have seen this happening and done something to prevent Italy from making moves on the player.
Scotland doesn't have a big player base so it wouldn't have taken much effort.

Pro rugby is a short career these days due to injuries etc and the quicker they make the break through the better for their careers. If the SRU haven't sounded him out and Italy have then calling him spoilt and immature for making what is probably a pretty difficult decision is totally wrong.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

madmaccas wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:The SRU have tweeted a few fans this morning who have been complaining about the Tommy Allan situation.
They have said the SRU have been monitoring Allan for a while now and have spoken to him as recently as the summer and are looking to speak to him again to seek clarification on his position!

The SRU should have been doing a lot more than that and had him persuaded along time ago to be tied to Scotland!

You think? I doubt other unions contact every former junior international once a week to say "Hey buddy, just so you know, you're still in the frame". He needs to prove himself, after all he's only played 1 game of pro rugby!!! Lee Millar, a superior fly half, moved to London Scottish to get extra game time.

Italy are being deeply cheeky playing a bloke who is untried and untested. Now if he was a proud Scotsman who would have told them to jog on, he clearly is not. It's hardly as if he'd have to wait long to get capped for Scotland if he stepped up at Perpignan and dislodged James Hook.

However right this second he's at least 7th in line for the Scotland 10 berth behind Jackson, Weir, Heathcote, Hogg, Laidlaw and Millar - all of whom have played about 10x more pro rugby than him.

He clearly is an impatient young man who wants to play internationally before he even has a perm club position, and doesn't care who he does it for. That's fine, we have enough mercenaries who will switch allegiances to get a cap and at least they tend to have Super Rugby experience (ala Nel, Strauss and Maitland) as opposed to one measly game for Perpignan.

Ultimately if he wants to play for Italy than fair doos, let him go.

Let's not include positional changes?  And it isn't Hook who has been the obstacle, rather Camille Lopez

I stand corrected! Why not positional changes? Laidlaw has played loads at 10 for Scotland and Hogg played there for the Lions! Would you honestly pick Allan over those guys for the next game?

I'm not even including Scott Wight in that list, which may be a touch unfair on him. Peter Horne has also played a fair bit at 10. That would make Allan technically 9th in line!

madmaccas wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

madmaccas wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:The SRU have tweeted a few fans this morning who have been complaining about the Tommy Allan situation.
They have said the SRU have been monitoring Allan for a while now and have spoken to him as recently as the summer and are looking to speak to him again to seek clarification on his position!

The SRU should have been doing a lot more than that and had him persuaded along time ago to be tied to Scotland!

You think? I doubt other unions contact every former junior international once a week to say "Hey buddy, just so you know, you're still in the frame". He needs to prove himself, after all he's only played 1 game of pro rugby!!! Lee Millar, a superior fly half, moved to London Scottish to get extra game time.

Italy are being deeply cheeky playing a bloke who is untried and untested. Now if he was a proud Scotsman who would have told them to jog on, he clearly is not. It's hardly as if he'd have to wait long to get capped for Scotland if he stepped up at Perpignan and dislodged James Hook.

However right this second he's at least 7th in line for the Scotland 10 berth behind Jackson, Weir, Heathcote, Hogg, Laidlaw and Millar - all of whom have played about 10x more pro rugby than him.

He clearly is an impatient young man who wants to play internationally before he even has a perm club position, and doesn't care who he does it for. That's fine, we have enough mercenaries who will switch allegiances to get a cap and at least they tend to have Super Rugby experience (ala Nel, Strauss and Maitland) as opposed to one measly game for Perpignan.

Ultimately if he wants to play for Italy than fair doos, let him go.

Let's not include positional changes?  And it isn't Hook who has been the obstacle, rather Camille Lopez

I stand corrected! Why not positional changes? Laidlaw has played loads at 10 for Scotland and Hogg played there for the Lions! Would you honestly pick Allan over those guys for the next game?

I'm not even including Scott Wight in that list, which may be a touch unfair on him. Peter Horne has also played a fair bit at 10. That would make Allan technically 9th in line!

I'd certainly look at developing someone like Tommy Allan ahead of contemplating an unconvincing positional shift - don't forget we tried Laidlaw, and the experiment has been firmly condemned to the wastepaper basket; similarly, we know what Hoggy brings at 15, let's not mess him around

Majestic83 wrote:As I have said already the major unions who are successful or had success would be contacting the promising players on a weekly basis. Speaking to them about a range of things like how their training is going, how they are developing, how their goal kicking is, things like that. From what I believe it is not something the SRU do very well with the young prospects that are coming through.
Video wise then yes he has only had one senior pro game but he has played many other games for the Perpignan 2nd team and the espoirs which are all very high standard games and plenty of detail could have been spotted from these videos as well.

Saying that no one could have predicted Italy would pick him now is maybe a Scottish problem towards rugby in that there is no forward thinking or planning! Of course they should have seen this happening and done something to prevent Italy from making moves on the player.
Scotland doesn't have a big player base so it wouldn't have taken much effort.

Pro rugby is a short career these days due to injuries etc and the quicker they make the break through the better for their careers. If the SRU haven't sounded him out and Italy have then calling him spoilt and immature for making what is probably a pretty difficult  decision is totally wrong.

I don't know about that. There are countless articles and interviews in which young English, Welsh, Kiwi and South African players, when asked about their chances of being picked for their country, say they've not heard anything or been contacted. Some are fastracked or placed in an elite quad, which is something Scotland do with their brightest lights. Now if he slipped through the cracks then either there is an deeper problem, or he was simply not deemed good enough yet to make the list.

Certainly most of the young pros I know in England don't get weekly calls.

As I said in a previous post, if he feels more Italian then fair enough, good for him. If however he's only choosing Italy because he wants to be capped before his 21st birthday, and because Scotland haven't been kissing his backside, then good riddance. I've coached players who demand constant attention and bigging up and they're usually ego maniacs, it's a players job to make the selectors and the coaches sit up and pay attention - something he hasn't done yet.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
I'd certainly look at developing someone like Tommy Allan ahead of contemplating an unconvincing positional shift - don't forget we tried Laidlaw, and the experiment has been firmly condemned to the wastepaper basket; similarly, we know what Hoggy brings at 15, let's not mess him around

So for say the South African game, if Jackson and Weir were injured you'd honestly pick Allan ahead of Horne, Laidlaw, Hogg, Wight, Hunter, Leonard and Millar at 10 based on one game for Perpignan? You'd risk our reputation so that we could tie in one player of unknown quality?

Developing him is one thing, throwing a guy in with almost zero pro experience based on hype would be madness. If he held on and had a good first pro season then he'd probably be picked in the A team come February, which would indeed constituent SRU development. Now we have no idea about his motivations, but if it's just because he wants to play for anyone then that's not the kind of player we want. If he wants to play international rugby without going through the processes that every other player has to, then he may be better of with the Azzurri. I don't want to see token caps given out, they should be earnt.

madmaccas wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
I'd certainly look at developing someone like Tommy Allan ahead of contemplating an unconvincing positional shift - don't forget we tried Laidlaw, and the experiment has been firmly condemned to the wastepaper basket; similarly, we know what Hoggy brings at 15, let's not mess him around

So for say the South African game, if Jackson and Weir were injured you'd honestly pick Allan ahead of Horne, Laidlaw, Hogg, Wight, Hunter, Leonard and Millar at 10 based on one game for Perpignan? You'd risk our reputation so that we could tie in one player of unknown quality?

Developing him is one thing, throwing a guy in with almost zero pro experience based on hype would be madness. If he held on and had a good first pro season then he'd probably be picked in the A team come February, which would indeed constituent SRU development. Now we have no idea about his motivations, but if it's just because he wants to play for anyone then that's not the kind of player we want. If he wants to play international rugby without going through the processes that every other player has to, then he may be better of with the Azzurri. I don't want to see token caps given out, they should be earnt.

Err, no, see the bold bit

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

madmaccas wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
I'd certainly look at developing someone like Tommy Allan ahead of contemplating an unconvincing positional shift - don't forget we tried Laidlaw, and the experiment has been firmly condemned to the wastepaper basket; similarly, we know what Hoggy brings at 15, let's not mess him around

So for say the South African game, if Jackson and Weir were injured you'd honestly pick Allan ahead of Horne, Laidlaw, Hogg, Wight, Hunter, Leonard and Millar at 10 based on one game for Perpignan? You'd risk our reputation so that we could tie in one player of unknown quality?

Developing him is one thing, throwing a guy in with almost zero pro experience based on hype would be madness. If he held on and had a good first pro season then he'd probably be picked in the A team come February, which would indeed constituent SRU development. Now we have no idea about his motivations, but if it's just because he wants to play for anyone then that's not the kind of player we want. If he wants to play international rugby without going through the processes that every other player has to, then he may be better of with the Azzurri. I don't want to see token caps given out, they should be earnt.

Err, no, see the bold bit

Ok no worries 100, so do you believe Edinburgh should have signed him to help develop him or would it all have been in vain because he wants to play internationally asap?

We should be discussing people who want to/can play for Scotland surely ?

madmaccas wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

madmaccas wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
I'd certainly look at developing someone like Tommy Allan ahead of contemplating an unconvincing positional shift - don't forget we tried Laidlaw, and the experiment has been firmly condemned to the wastepaper basket; similarly, we know what Hoggy brings at 15, let's not mess him around

So for say the South African game, if Jackson and Weir were injured you'd honestly pick Allan ahead of Horne, Laidlaw, Hogg, Wight, Hunter, Leonard and Millar at 10 based on one game for Perpignan? You'd risk our reputation so that we could tie in one player of unknown quality?

Developing him is one thing, throwing a guy in with almost zero pro experience based on hype would be madness. If he held on and had a good first pro season then he'd probably be picked in the A team come February, which would indeed constituent SRU development. Now we have no idea about his motivations, but if it's just because he wants to play for anyone then that's not the kind of player we want. If he wants to play international rugby without going through the processes that every other player has to, then he may be better of with the Azzurri. I don't want to see token caps given out, they should be earnt.

Err, no, see the bold bit

Ok no worries 100, so do you believe Edinburgh should have signed him to help develop him or would it all have been in vain because he wants to play internationally asap?

Tbh, I think Scotland have done what they probably could in this situation - Glasgow have 4 stand-offs on their books, with Wight or Russell the ones most likely to miss out, but with Rhubarb and Meatball both injured, they needed to keep hold of Wight at the end of last season, and Russell is an excellent prospect. Embra might have signed up, but without a coaching team to speak of, with one 'established' pro in Two Firstnames, plus Leonard and Hunter to provide back-up, perhaps there simply was no room. In which case, going to USAP was a great opportunity for the lad, but maybe better tabs could have been kept on him to make him feel loved? Who knows, ancient history now.

madmaccas wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:As I have said already the major unions who are successful or had success would be contacting the promising players on a weekly basis. Speaking to them about a range of things like how their training is going, how they are developing, how their goal kicking is, things like that. From what I believe it is not something the SRU do very well with the young prospects that are coming through.
Video wise then yes he has only had one senior pro game but he has played many other games for the Perpignan 2nd team and the espoirs which are all very high standard games and plenty of detail could have been spotted from these videos as well.

Saying that no one could have predicted Italy would pick him now is maybe a Scottish problem towards rugby in that there is no forward thinking or planning! Of course they should have seen this happening and done something to prevent Italy from making moves on the player.
Scotland doesn't have a big player base so it wouldn't have taken much effort.

Pro rugby is a short career these days due to injuries etc and the quicker they make the break through the better for their careers. If the SRU haven't sounded him out and Italy have then calling him spoilt and immature for making what is probably a pretty difficult  decision is totally wrong.

I don't know about that. There are countless articles and interviews in which young English, Welsh, Kiwi and South African players, when asked about their chances of being picked for their country, say they've not heard anything or been contacted. Some are fastracked or placed in an elite quad, which is something Scotland do with their brightest lights. Now if he slipped through the cracks then either there is an deeper problem, or he was simply not deemed good enough yet to make the list.

Certainly most of the young pros I know in England don't get weekly calls.

As I said in a previous post, if he feels more Italian then fair enough, good for him. If however he's only choosing Italy because he wants to be capped before his 21st birthday, and because Scotland haven't been kissing his backside, then good riddance. I've coached players who demand constant attention and bigging up and they're usually ego maniacs, it's a players job to make the selectors and the coaches sit up and pay attention - something he hasn't done yet.

Having been involved with pro rugby down in England I know quite a few of my team mates who were playing u20 international rugby were being contacted weekly by the senior national coaches on a weekly basis. This from what I understand is a common trend. This involved players from England, South Africa, Australia & Wales. There was very little contact from Scottish rugby officials as at the time there were a few players from Scotland in the Academy team and 1st team.

A few players I know who have been in the Scotland U20 team recently have also said similar things that the contact from the SRU is very poor and little contact is made once they have gone past the u20 age group.

Majestic83 wrote:

madmaccas wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:As I have said already the major unions who are successful or had success would be contacting the promising players on a weekly basis. Speaking to them about a range of things like how their training is going, how they are developing, how their goal kicking is, things like that. From what I believe it is not something the SRU do very well with the young prospects that are coming through.
Video wise then yes he has only had one senior pro game but he has played many other games for the Perpignan 2nd team and the espoirs which are all very high standard games and plenty of detail could have been spotted from these videos as well.

Saying that no one could have predicted Italy would pick him now is maybe a Scottish problem towards rugby in that there is no forward thinking or planning! Of course they should have seen this happening and done something to prevent Italy from making moves on the player.
Scotland doesn't have a big player base so it wouldn't have taken much effort.

Pro rugby is a short career these days due to injuries etc and the quicker they make the break through the better for their careers. If the SRU haven't sounded him out and Italy have then calling him spoilt and immature for making what is probably a pretty difficult  decision is totally wrong.

I don't know about that. There are countless articles and interviews in which young English, Welsh, Kiwi and South African players, when asked about their chances of being picked for their country, say they've not heard anything or been contacted. Some are fastracked or placed in an elite quad, which is something Scotland do with their brightest lights. Now if he slipped through the cracks then either there is an deeper problem, or he was simply not deemed good enough yet to make the list.

Certainly most of the young pros I know in England don't get weekly calls.

As I said in a previous post, if he feels more Italian then fair enough, good for him. If however he's only choosing Italy because he wants to be capped before his 21st birthday, and because Scotland haven't been kissing his backside, then good riddance. I've coached players who demand constant attention and bigging up and they're usually ego maniacs, it's a players job to make the selectors and the coaches sit up and pay attention - something he hasn't done yet.

Having been involved with pro rugby down in England I know quite a few of my team mates who were playing u20 international rugby were being contacted weekly by the senior national coaches on a weekly basis. This from what I understand is a common trend. This involved players from England, South Africa, Australia & Wales. There was very little contact from Scottish rugby officials as at the time there were a few players from Scotland in the Academy team and 1st team.

A few players I know who have been in the Scotland U20 team recently have also said similar things that the contact from the SRU is very poor and little contact is made once they have gone past the u20 age group.

 
That's very sad if that's true, Maj. It's important - just read any of the interviews with Josh Strauss where he talked about the fact that Glasgow's focus and care in making its members of staff available to him over a period of months and constantly checking on him ultimately proved to be decisive in him deciding to come. He described it as "professional" behaviour.
 
I don't care about whether Allan plays for a Scottish team or not - that's only barely relevant to his development. What I care about is the fact that the SRU through its press releases to fans about Allan have effectively said: "Who? What? When? Just now? Has he? Bugger." That's just nonsense - it has to have been someone's job to keep up with young players. I know that there are a lot of them, but surely very few of them are first or second choice with a professional club.
 
I would have been so much more confident if the SRU had been on top of this and their statement had been prepared well in advance, saying "We are aware of the situation with this player and have been in ongoing contact with him. We believe that his future best lies with the Scottish national set up where he has spent the majority of his playing life but we release that he has other choices and the decision is an extremely difficult one for any player to make. We will continue to monitor and support him in his development and we wish him all the best".
 
It's not rocket surgery, Ted.