England team changes for the rest of Six Nations

First topic message reminder :

Looks like Mako Vunipola will be available for the Italy game, with George, Sinkler, Haskell and Teo all starting. Billy Vunipola on schedule for the Irish game, although I will believe that when I see it, given his injury. Watson will also now be ready for Italian game and- is this the game for Brown to be 'rested' ?

I can see Clifford, Haskell & Hughes being a more balanced back row with Itoje moving forward, although how EJ would choose between Launchbury & Lawes is anyone's guess. Looking further forward and slightly left field, a Hughes, Haskell and Vunipola combo for the Irish game ?

I like the look of Teo whose running lines look top notch and if Hartley is benched clearly Farrell will be at ten with the armband, with Ford perhaps as the impact FH when bodies start to tire.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/02/12/billy-mako-vunipola-set-give-england-six-nations-grand-slam/

Ps. The internet link above is not the full title of the article, before anyone jumps on it.......

Nowell excels in that broken crowded areas. This game was ideal for him.

I think the Italy tactics thing has blinded everyone that the entire England team was sh$te. Bar Nowell and possibly Daly.

To single out May is very harsh! I thought brown was worse if we are going to single players out!

Can't see Watson coming back in to a starting place.

beshocked wrote:robbo277 can't see Jones dropping Daly whose had a good tournament so far. I've been impressed by him.

Can't say I expected him to slot comfortably in on the wing.

Might be a gamble but Jones should perhaps consider dropping Brown, playing Nowell,Daly and Watson as the back three.

That's the move I would make. Brown is just too predictable ball in hand now. its been a major weapon, but now I believe its a hindrance. Daly is the one id go with.

11 May / Watson
14 Nowell
15 Daly

LondonTiger wrote:The team I think Jones will pick:

Mako, Hartley(c), Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Itoje, Haskell, Hughes, Youngs, Ford, Daly, Farrell, Joseph, Nowell, Brown

George, Marler, Sinkler, Wood, Clifford, Care, Te'o, Watson

I think that will be the side.

Nobody from the bench hugely impressed and Mako for Marler makes sense on a carrying aspect.

Assuming the selection of Te'o was to see what he can do, with Joseph released to ensure he did not go a month without rugby, then I do not feel the Samoan aussie Kiwi Worcester lad did enough to usurp Joseph.

However if Joseph was actually dropped, then Te'o did enough to avoid being dropped himself.

Re Hughes - I agree that his performances have not been anything special and yesterday was outright poor, I just feel he will be in by default with Billy being rushed back as soon as possible.

Re Brown - against Scotland I would like to see more pace at FB, but feel EJ will not wish to lose his combative nature.

GeordieFalcon wrote:To single out May is very harsh!

I am not trying to single out May, I just look at it as similar to Te'o v JJ. May came in for Nowell in a "lets see how he does move" and did not do enough to warrant starting ahead of Nowell in two weeks time. I would love to see more pace at FB, but just believe that Jones will not want to put someone new there for such a key match.

Geordiefalcon I don't think May was the worst England player. He just wasn't particularly effective and most other players off form players have more credit in the bank.

Also England have Nowell and Watson who could easily come in for him.

Farrell was the worst back and Hughes the worst forward but difficult to drop either.

I am not convinced I'd want Clifford at 8 as bad as Hughes was.

beshocked wrote:robbo277 can't see Jones dropping Daly whose had a good tournament so far. I've been impressed by him.

Can't say I expected him to slot comfortably in on the wing.

Might be a gamble but Jones should perhaps consider dropping Brown, playing Nowell,Daly and Watson as the back three.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Nowell excels in that broken crowded areas. This game was ideal for him.

I think the Italy tactics thing has blinded everyone that the entire England team was sh$te. Bar Nowell and possibly Daly.

To single out May is very harsh! I thought brown was worse if we are going to single players out!

Beshocked - I've dropped May and Brown in my preferred team (earlier up the page). I would go with Watson, Nowell and Daly. I've been very impressed with Daly too.

GF - as above, I'd drop May and Brown, so I'm not singling May out. I'd also put Hughes and Cole on the bench.

Brown isn't beating the first man any more as he was when he was at his peak for us. Couple this with his poor passing game and we have no threat running the ball back. I'd have him on the bench as a fallback if we're switching round the back 3, but the ideal scenario would be that Daly settles at 15 and we look at bringing a fresh face in for the Argentina tour.

Our back 3 options would then be Watson, Nowell, May as our wingers and Daly and a new guy in at 15. Haley was on the radar a short while back, but I'll admit I don't watch that much club rugby so have no idea how he's getting on.

[quote="LondonTiger"]Assuming the selection of Te'o was to see what he can do, with Joseph released to ensure he did not go a month without rugby, then I do not feel the Samoan aussie Kiwi Worcester lad did enough to usurp Joseph.

However if Joseph was actually dropped, then Te'o did enough to avoid being dropped himself.

Re Hughes - I agree that his performances have not been anything special and yesterday was outright poor, I just feel he will be in by default with Billy being rushed back as soon as possible.

Re Brown - against Scotland I would like to see more pace at FB, but feel EJ will not wish to lose his combative nature.[quote]

That's the thing with brown...I love his aggression. If only he just had a bit more appreciation of who is around him to offload / pass.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon I don't think May was the worst England player. He just wasn't particularly effective and most other players off form players have more credit in the bank.

Also England have Nowell and Watson who could easily come in for him.

Farrell was the worst back and Hughes the worst forward but difficult to drop either.

I am not convinced I'd want Clifford at 8 as bad as Hughes was.

Clifford has done nothing to warrant being in the side. But Hughes simply hasn't brought his club game to this level.

Hughes keeps it for the next game...but he will be made aware he's on VERY limited time now.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon I don't think May was the worst England player. He just wasn't particularly effective and most other players off form players have more credit in the bank.

Also England have Nowell and Watson who could easily come in for him.

Farrell was the worst back and Hughes the worst forward but difficult to drop either.

I am not convinced I'd want Clifford at 8 as bad as Hughes was.

Clifford has done nothing to warrant being in the side. But Hughes simply hasn't brought his club game to this level.

Hughes keeps it for the next game...but he will be made aware he's on VERY limited time now.

Agree with that. England looking vulnerable at 8 without Billy.

Hughes looked good against Australia in the autumn, but hasn't stood out this tournament. A lot of carries, a lot of endeavour, not a lot of result.

Maybe he needs a second big carrier in the pack to take some of the burden off, but I think Scotland will target Hughes. They'll look to chop him early and get Watson and Barclay over the ball.

Getting Clifford in there and out a little bit wider is a sensible strategy in my opinion.

Hughes gave away too many pens in the first half but he carried well and came into the game in the 2nd. Clifford has done absolutely nothing to warrant inclusion, I find this a bizarre call. Bringing Mako into the side will take the carrying burden away from Hughes and give him more space to work in.

Hughes still made the most yards of any forward (bar Launchbury with one 30m break) and most of those were through the middle of Italian defences and a similar number of tackles to Itoje and Haskell.

If anyone in the pack was ineffective yesterday, I'd say it was Hartley.

robbo277 I think if you start Mako and George that would take some pressure off Hughes.

Marler IMO hasn't had a bad tournament so far but Mako adds so much with his carrying in my opinion.

Obviously George for me is the best hooker in the NH, not just England. It's why he's one of the bookies favourites to make the Lions despite being a bench man.

Strengthen the scrum and carrying with those two.

beshocked wrote:robbo277 I think if you start Mako and George that would take some pressure off Hughes.

Marler IMO hasn't had a bad tournament so far but Mako adds so much with his carrying in my opinion.

Obviously George for me is the best hooker in the NH, not just England. It's why he's one of the bookies favourites to make the Lions despite being a bench man.

Strengthen the scrum and carrying with those two.

I don't agree that Mako would strengthen the scrum over Marler, and I'm not sure if strengthening the scrum is strictly necessary given Scotland's woes in this area, but I think having another carrier or two would help Hughes out if we stick with him.

I rate George but he's done little to suggest he's the best hooker in the NH. He needs to start regularly for England before such accolade can be backed up. Guirado the French 2 is the clear choice for me, he's regularly the best player for France and has a complete game.

Sinkler adds to the carrying aswell....

beshocked wrote: Nowell made a big impact, I've changed my tune since 2014 because he's improved and grown as a player.

Im with you on this. I wasnt a fan in the early performances but right now if its a toss up between May and Nowell I'd take Nowell.


Youngs Care is a similar flip flip position. Currently Id go with Youngs beccause its less embaressing to support a team featuring someone with his haircut in.



On the Brown debate the other big thing he used to do was contest and win high balls. England just arent making those kind of kicks now, its a tactic they dont adopt under Jones. It takes away one of the key things that made Brown so effective. I very much wasnt on the "drop Borwn" bandwagon which started last spring, but now Im saeeing the case. His expereince has been important and he helps lead and organise teh outside backs, but as the others play more that becomes less of a thing. Theres exegrations on how bad hes been and his perceived lack of pace but when you see the all round game of a player like Daly and know what a fit Watson looks like its increasingly hard to not see him as a weak link.

It may be that England wait till the Argentina tour to play with new fullbacks and captains, but then the candidates may be with the Lions..whereas Hartley and Brown may well both not be. So that would leave the AIs as the first real opportunity to change if its not made now.

Jones has big decsions to make. The next two games are huge, especially as its now near impossible for England to win the 6 nations on a 4-1 record.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sinkler adds to the carrying aswell....

Is his scrummaging up to it though? I'm not sure. He looks good for 1 or 2 when he first comes on against tired legs but quickly fades.

As bad as the Scottish scrum is, I wouldn't fancy starting Sinks against them. Cole is one of the first names on the teamsheet until someone better comes along and I really fancy us attacking that Scottish scrum from the off.

Sgt Pooly George has already outclassed Guirado twice this season at club level as a starter and obviously made a positive impact vs France in the 6 nations - played 3 won 3 vs Guirado.....

Each time George has faced his rivals he has generally come out on top. Including Hartley and Best.

Is it a coincidence that generally when George is on the pitch his team wins? Perhaps....

robbo if you combine Mako and George then you strengthen the scrum. IMO they have to start together.

Playing both would really take the fight to Scots from the beginning - get scrum superiority right away.

George plays for Saracens and England. 2 very good teams at their respective levels. You could say Hartley has won every game he's started as captain for England and should thus start as captain.

beshocked wrote:

Is it a coincidence that generally when George is on the pitch his team wins? Perhaps....

That will all stop if hes only on for the first 55 minutes though.

Gooseberry wrote:

beshocked wrote: Nowell made a big impact, I've changed my tune since 2014 because he's improved and grown as a player.

Im with you on this. I wasnt a fan in the early performances but right now if its a toss up between May and Nowell I'd take Nowell.


Youngs Care is a similar flip flip position. Currently Id go with Youngs beccause its less embaressing to support a team featuring someone with his haircut in.



On the Brown debate the other big thing he used to do was contest and win high balls. England just arent making those kind of kicks now, its a tactic they dont adopt under Jones. It takes away one of the key things that made Brown so effective. I very much wasnt on the "drop Borwn" bandwagon which started last spring, but now Im saeeing the case. His expereince has been important and he helps lead and organise teh outside backs, but as the others play more that becomes less of a thing.  Theres exegrations on how bad hes been and his perceived lack of pace but when you see the all round game of a player like Daly and know what a fit Watson looks like its increasingly hard to not see him as a weak link.

It may be that England wait till the Argentina tour to play with new fullbacks and captains, but then the candidates may be with the Lions..whereas Hartley and Brown may well both not be. So that would leave the AIs as the first real opportunity to change if its not made now.

Jones has big decsions to make. The next two games are huge, especially as its now near impossible for England to win the 6 nations on a 4-1 record.

It would get a lot easier if Wales do us a favour on the 10th. If they beat Ireland, we can win the Championship with a win against Scotland, before we even have to travel to Dublin.

If Ireland beat Wales, England have to get a second try bonus point or a Grand Slam if they want the Championship. Or else rely on a very weird set of results, e.g. Scotland failing to take 5 points from Italy, or England putting 35 points difference on one of their last opponents without scoring 4 tries.

Is it a coincidence that generally when George is on the pitch his team wins? Perhaps....

And the other 14/22 players have nothing to do with it of course. As 71/2 say......if you use that insane theory which means nothing, Hartley also has never lost game for England in over a year.

Until George gets past Hartley, he just simply isn't proven. You can huff and puff all you like, but you have no facts to back up your opinion at this stage. It's just an opinion from a biased fan I'm afraid.

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly George has already outclassed Guirado twice this season at club level as a starter and obviously made a positive impact vs France in the 6 nations - played 3 won 3 vs Guirado.....

Each time George has faced his rivals he has generally come out on top. Including Hartley and Best.

Is it a coincidence that generally when George is on the pitch his team wins? Perhaps....

robbo if you combine Mako and George then you strengthen the scrum. IMO they have to start together.

Or you start neither, go with Clifford at 8, Te'o at 13 and switch your main point of contact from around the ruck to out wide.

Best option against Scotland is to play the best scrummagers, heavy forwards, win every scrum, kick to touch and maul. France took them to the cleaners in the scrum, we have a solid lineout and should get bonus point tries by rinsing and repeating.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Is it a coincidence that generally when George is on the pitch his team wins? Perhaps....

And the other 14/22 players have nothing to do with it of course. As 71/2 say......if you use that insane theory which means nothing, Hartley also has never lost game for England in over a year.

Until George gets past Hartley, he just simply isn't proven. You can huff and puff all you like, but you have no facts to back up your opinion at this stage. It's just an opinion from a biased fan I'm afraid.

no 7 & 1/2 George has actually played well for his teams though. That's the main difference. Not as if Hartley,Best and Guirado play for bad club teams.

You can be in a good team and not contribute much but George has contributed a lot.

Facts like outplaying his main rivals frequently.

Sgt Pooly do you know how flawed that is? He's not as good because he's not being picked....when most rugby fans know George has been the better hooker than Hartley for some time.

I am not talking about captaincy or Jones' infatuation with Hartley. I am talking about actual form.


I could list lots of influential interventions by George which have helped his team but it would just be wasted on you.

Brown still has a lot to offer. On top of his high ball security, huge left boot and tackle breaking he is also our best full back in defence by a distance. Both in positioning and tackling he is stronger than the up-and-coming options. His fearlessness is also a genuine factor in how good he is at clearing up probing kicks.

Michael Haley is an excellent young player but he hasn't yet developed his defensive game to that sort of level.

Nowell played full back in his younger years but not for a while now. One of Nowell's strengths these days is being able to roam off his wing and look for the ball. For Chiefs and England he is better than most forwards at making yards coming around the corner of the ruck and taking the ball from his 9. I don't think England would gain much by putting him at 15 and losing that go forward.

Watson will likely take over at full back I think. He isn't as fearless or physical in contact as Brown but his positioning is very good. Watson's cover tackling is far better than his front on tackling as well, there's a pretty good argument to be made that he's better defending at full back than wing. Plus he adds a lot of pace from the back.

I hope that Brown remains in the training squad if one of the younger players takes his place. His skill-set still offers a lot in the right game and conditions. Plus his form, whilst below his outstanding best for England, isn't poor enough to warrant dropping without a clear replacement.

king_carlos wrote:
Nowell played full back in his younger years but not for a while now. One of Nowell's strengths these days is being able to roam off his wing and look for the ball. For Chiefs and England he is better than most forwards at making yards coming around the corner of the ruck and taking the ball from his 9. I don't think England would gain much by putting him at 15 and losing that go forward.

You lose his under rated work at the breakdown too, I only read it recently but only Itoje made more turnovers than he did during the last 6 nations.

I agree Carlos, the element of 'dog' that Brown has isn't replicated by the other contenders yet.
Brown was stepped by Campangaro but so were other defenders - the fault of that try really is at Fords feet as the missed 1st up tackle. Aside from that I didn't see much wrong from Brown.

Nowell has really hit some form - he has explosive speed combined with a high level of physicality that makes him just as effective round the ruck fringes as he is in larger space.

beshocked wrote:

Sgt Pooly do you know how flawed that is? He's not as good because he's not being picked....when most rugby fans know George has been the better hooker than Hartley for some time.

I am not talking about captaincy or Jones' infatuation with Hartley. I am talking about actual form.

I could list lots of influential interventions by George which have helped his team but it would just be wasted on you.

Please show me where I've said he's not good.

I said he's unproven at Int level as he's never actually started a game. You don't know how good a player is until he actually starts, its completely different from coming off the bench. I said he wasn't the best hooker in the NH as he's not started for his country, it's pretty straight forward. How can you be the best if you're not playing against the best?

Instead of trying to patronise me because you've got nothing to back your opinion up, try showing me George's form from his England STARTS......oh you can't

He's a cracking player but until he starts, he's not the best in any hemisphere, just in your mind.

Sgt Pooly

You can be the best and not start obviously if the coach wants to retain the captain just for his leadership.

I am talking about best player. Not captain. It's why George is one of the bookies' favourite to make the Lions squad despite not starting for England.

Being a starter doesn't make you better necessarily.

George has taken on the likes of Guirado,Best and Hartley as a starter. He's generally come out on top.

beshocked wrote:George has taken on the likes of Guirado,Best and Hartley as a starter. He's generally come out on top.

Hartley has taken on Guirado, Best, Creevy, Moore all within the last year and won.

But he's not been tested at the very pinnacle of his sport....starting as an international. Until he's tested and tested for a number of games, he just simply cannot be judged to be at the very top level.

You may think he is, and he may in the future very well be the best at the NH. But, at this moment in time it's an opinion with nothing to back it up.

Let's move on....

In terms of winning the Scotland game, I think making some of the changes people are proposing would be very dangerous. Putting an untried fullback out against a Scots back three who are in fine attacking form seems to me to invite them to score on the counter-attack.

The Scottish pack creaked in the scrum and I would expect England to give them a very hard time, regardless of who starts. Personally, I prefer having Marler's defence for the first 50 with Mako's carrying when things open up, but I could equally see it the other way.

Where Scotland did make hay was against a Welsh lineout that looked very flaky at times. England won't give them that much easy possession and Itoje is well-placed to contest anything that is slightly loose from Scotland.

I suspect it's going to be a different game for both sides compared to this week's. England's pack is much closer to France's than Wales, which could make for a tough game up front, but England's back division offers more options than France and is currently making better decisions than Wales. Scotland I imagine will be looking to contest the breakdown through Watson and attack off kicks and turnovers.

Pretty clear to me that Jones doesn't want to lumber any of the other potential candidates with the captaincy.

So for the time being Hartley will remain the first name on the team sheet.

What is less clear is who he views as being capable or with potential to take the role.

Recwatcher16 wrote:Pretty clear to me that Jones doesn't want to lumber any of the other potential candidates with the captaincy.

So for the time being Hartley will remain the first name on the team sheet.

What is less clear is who he views as being capable or with potential to take the role.

On the contrary, I think it's very clear. The guy who has been doing it when Hartley leaves the field and who Eddie says is our only world class player.

Poorfour wrote:In terms of winning the Scotland game, I think making some of the changes people are proposing would be very dangerous. Putting an untried fullback out against a Scots back three who are in fine attacking form seems to me to invite them to score on the counter-attack.

The Scottish pack creaked in the scrum and I would expect England to give them a very hard time, regardless of who starts. Personally, I prefer having Marler's defence for the first 50 with Mako's carrying when things open up, but I could equally see it the other way.

Where Scotland did make hay was against a Welsh lineout that looked very flaky at times. England won't give them that much easy possession and Itoje is well-placed to contest anything that is slightly loose from Scotland.

I suspect it's going to be a different game for both sides compared to this week's. England's pack is much closer to France's than Wales, which could make for a tough game up front, but England's back division offers more options than France and is currently making better decisions than Wales. Scotland I imagine will be looking to contest the breakdown through Watson and attack off kicks and turnovers.

Brown will still be there for the Scotland game I would bet. His experience and defensive work against the form of Russell and Hogg will be vital.

I also agree on Marler starting against Fagerson.

Care is playing well but it wouldn't surprise me if Youngs came back in at 9 against Scotland. People will complain but bottom line is he has the better kicking game and box kicking poorly to the Scotland back three will get you into trouble. It will be a close call.

Scottrf wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Pretty clear to me that Jones doesn't want to lumber any of the other potential candidates with the captaincy.

So for the time being Hartley will remain the first name on the team sheet.

What is less clear is who he views as being capable or with potential to take the role.

On the contrary, I think it's very clear. The guy who has been doing it when Hartley leaves the field and who Eddie says is our only world class player.

Did he seriously say Farrell Jr is world class?

Quite a bit of egg on Jones' face.....

I would say the closest England player to world class is Billy Vunipola. A few pushing but not there yet.

His absence is clearly felt.

Farrell jr certainly had a bad day with boot that's for sure.


Regarding being a ( world class player ) Not many English put their hands up in the first half.

But despite how they did or did not perform against Italy. They still found away to win. and win well at that matter.

Poorfour wrote:Putting an untried fullback out against a Scots back three who are in fine attacking form seems to me to invite them to score on the counter-attack.

You saw Browns attempt at a last man tackle right?

Gooseberry wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Putting an untried fullback out against a Scots back three who are in fine attacking form seems to me to invite them to score on the counter-attack.

You saw Browns attempt at a last man tackle right?

To be fair to Brown he was told he needed to play like Hogg if he wanted to get on the plane.

Cyril wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Putting an untried fullback out against a Scots back three who are in fine attacking form seems to me to invite them to score on the counter-attack.

You saw Browns attempt at a last man tackle right?

To be fair to Brown he was told he needed to play like Hogg if he wanted to get on the plane.

Farrell was so bad that I actually think I forgive him, it looked like a blip, he has been good for a long time and will be again, I'd write that one off.

Saying that the only people who I thought played well enough to deserve a mention were Launchbury, Itoje, Te'o and Daly.

After the Lions tour I would bin off Hartley and Brown. Brown just doesn't pass and Daly could be so much more threatening at 15. Hartley, honestly I don't think Eddie can drop him for this 6ns just for stability but I expect him to be gone come the Autumn.

Just watched the Aviva round up show ont ta telly and have to say was impressed with how Earle looks to be progressing at Saracens.

It's been a slow burn, but I wonder if any of the Saracen's followers could give some insight on his development?