Will the Irish provinces suffer a players exodus?

First topic message reminder :

Whether it is a "development" league or not, the Celtic League has been able to provide the Irish provinces with a continuing supply of players. The induction of guys like Sean O'Brien, Keith Earls, Cian Healy, Peter O'Mahony and Craig Gilroy has been almost seamless and we are beginning to see strenght in depth and whats more Irish strenght in depth.

In one of Munster's pool stage matches in the Heineken Cup this season the bench included Marcus Horan, John Hayes, Donnacha O'Callaghan, Denis Leamy and Tomas O'Leary. Not so long ago that was a third of Irelands national team.

We are now at a stage where (despite reports of an "aging" team) most of Irelands internationals are in their mid 20s with even younger guys champing at the bit for selection in both provinces and internationally.

Do Irish fans expect to see a bit of an exodus in recent years? I just don't see that many players being happy to sit around as backup for their provinces. Despite the efforts of the IRFU to get Irish players for Irish provinces I would expect to see an increase in the amount of players leaving. Why sit on a bench at Leinster when you can go to England and play week in week out. Not even England as it usually was but I expect to see a few of our internationals end up in France or SANZAR.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Didn't Ireland go to Poland and sit in freezers prior to the 2007 RWC? Didn't seem to help us. Maybe we were doing the wrong kind of training though. Pumping iron to much instead of building stamina?

In steady Eddie's book he talks about this. He says that the trip to Poland got the fitness levels up to probably the best they ever have been. The mistake they made was they concentrated too much on this. The 'untouchables' weren't brought on the tour to Argentina (although this was also done before 2003 WC) and they had too few warm up games. He admitted he made mistakes but the fitness levels of the players doesn't seem to be one of them.

SecretFly wrote:Ireland, because of the development of professionalism and the good work of academies, seems stuffed with young players coming through a very slim door...and the build up of players that need more quality gametime increases almost on a monthly basis. If that clog continues, nature itself will find the solution and yes, young players will look abroad to further their experience and careers.

Maybe some of that percieved build up of talent is just illusion given the successes of the Provinces in Europe. Maybe we think we have a conveyor belt of talent but maybe the emphasis on 'talent' needs more proof in actual performances at league or HC level. But let's go with the argument and suggest we have a build up of talent that needs to play or to fly away to where it can.

You're right, SF. Below is a list of former Ireland U20 players that are currently involved with provinces or their academies. I didn't include this year or last years U20 teams because some might still get signed to academies but most of those are in or near academies already.

2009-2010 (24)
NIALL ANNETT
DENIS BUCKLEY
PADDY BUTLER
ANDREW CONWAY
JOHN COONEY
DAVID DOYLE ???
EOIN GRIFFIN
BRIAN HAYES
DARREN HUDSON
BRENDAN MACKEN
STEWART MAGUIRE
BEN MARSHALL
JAMES MCKINNEY
DAVID MCSHARRY
JORDI MURPHY
DAVE O'CALLAGHAN
JACK O'CONNELL
TIERNAN O'HALLORAN
BRIAN O'HARA
NOEL REID
RHYS RUDDOCK
DOMINIC RYAN
NEVIN SPENCE
SIMON ZEBO

2008 - 2009 (17)
MARK FLANAGAN
DAVE KEARNEY
ADAM MACKLIN
IAN MADIGAN
PADDY MCALLISTER
JACK MCGRATH
CONOR MURRAY
DAVE O'CALLAGHAN
JACK O'CONNELL
BRIAN O'HARA
PETER O'MAHONY
RONAN O'MAHONY
CIARAN RUDDOCK
RHYS RUDDOCK
DOMINIC RYAN
TOM SEXTON
EAMONN SHERIDAN
NEVIN SPENCE

2007-2008 (5)
SCOTT DEASY
DAVE FOLEY
IAN NAGLE
EOIN O'MALLEY
MIKE SHERRY

2006-2007 (10)
TJ ANDERSON
ANDREW BROWNE ???
JAMIE HAGAN
FELIX JONES
IAN KEATLEY
SEAN O'BRIEN
NIALL O'CONNOR
TOMMY O'DONNELL
PAUL O'DONOHOE
KYLE TONETTI


Theres a big jump there in the numbers of U20s becoming involved with the provinces. Theres only so many places available and if no players are moving abroad theres going to be a queue of players for some positions. We've seen it with Leinster especially. Their squad is not only bigger than ever but more interestingly, its younger than ever.

So that suggests they have been busy filling the squad with most of the academy players they've brought through. The question must be asked, what now? Up until now you had young Leinster players turning down offers from other teams. My theory is instead of turning down other teams you'll be seeing more and more of them seeking to join other teams. Connacht will be the main beneficiaries of this IMO. Also, you might see more senior players move abroad if they're not needed as much.

Decco,
Dont write off the concept. Corporate pals, who run the rich clubs will make the play. Ireland is exempt and ring-fenced. For now. But, in the grand scale of things, we are nothing. See how the French clubs ran the France v Ireland rescheduling debacle a few weeks back? Who pulled all the strings? Not the FFR. Not The IRB. Not the 6-N. French club rugby did. Have you seen the way all other pro sports have gone?

Games, at 9PM, on a Saturday or Sunday night, are scheduled for French advertising. We have no say in this. Its a joke really.

And when the big decisions are taken, the English will back them in their quest. It is in both their interests to do so.

We are nothing. As are Wales and Scotland. The Italians have far too much catching up to do to stop it. Little ol Ireland can have their say... but will be pushed aside when push comes to shove. The English are not happy with the PRO12 quotient for the HC. As it is with the French. That will change. Who do you actually think will win the battle to control European club rugby?

My shekels are solidly on England & France.

Its an IMF/EU Euro scenario. He who pays the Piper and invests the most shekels, calls the shots. Its the way the World turns man.

It will happen. The only question - is when.

Dont be naive.

international is still where the cash is, as is the HC. Can't see the French or English going solo. Won't happen, and the players won't go with it. Think the rugby league super league

Shane Logan, the CEO of Ulster, is apparently convinced a European Super League is coming down the pipe some day. He wants- needs- to drive Ulster forward because he thinks if it does happen, we need to be a part of it to survive as a professional concern.

It will be a sad day for our game if it does happen. But Ireland simply can't survive on its own. We can't support professional rugby without quality external opposition. We can't support our provinces without the Heineken Cup and if England and France take their ball and go home all we can do is hope they let us in on it. In a perfect world, the Irish system would be the norm, but we aren't a perfect world. These are salad days for the provincial game in Ireland. Enjoy 'em.

Without IRFU money the provinces won't survive. The paying public won't embrace it, the tv money wouldn't be enough and the fan base isn't there. A revamp of the HC is possible but controlled by the rfu's but can't see the French giving up on their top14 , or the English clubs their premiership. Its their bread and butter.

It hasn't happened in football yet with all the money going around..

DOD wrote:international is still where the cash is, as is the HC. Can't see the French or English going solo. Won't happen, and the players won't go with it. Think the rugby league super league

Not going solo. They need us to play with. Its just that they are the biggest lads in the playground.

So they make the rules.

We need the Italians to grow in the PRO12. And be on our side. 70,000 at the Olympic Stadium, when they nearly beat England, was magnificent to see.
A 60 million population, could really sway it our way. Over time. As is Treviso's fast growth in the PRO12 affecting Italian interest in rugby, at club-level. Need Aironi to come on board. Need the Welsh & the Scots to wake up to their regions and not spend all their time on the National side. They need to realise that one, without the other, wont flourish.

We need a really strong PRO12. Need to take it far more seriously. I think that is happening. Slowly.

Im just a pessimist with an optimistic heart, man.

Im finished Ted. I just see it coming.

Other way around regarding who needs to play with who. They have both tried forcing the Celtic unions and Italy to bend to their evil plans but they know without us the idea of a EU league is toast

DOD wrote:Without IRFU money the provinces won't survive. The paying public won't embrace it, the tv money wouldn't be enough and the fan base isn't there. A revamp of the HC is possible but controlled by the rfu's but can't see the French giving up on their top14 , or the English clubs their premiership. Its their bread and butter.

It hasn't happened in football yet with all the money going around..

Good call on the CL. But, we are talking Oligarchs there too. Involving billlions of pounds. Foreign ones, with foreign players, purporting to be English teams.
I got in a ruck on the soccer site over that. They never got back to me on it. I wonder why? I hope they... ah feic it.

Exactly...

Feic it.

We can threaten to send Big Joe Joyce as our spokesman. That might scare them off.

The small teams do have a say if they stick together. England and France might be the biggest players in this but theres no game without the other 4 major European teams.

profitius wrote:The small teams do have a say if they stick together. England and France might be the biggest players in this but theres no game without the other 4 major European teams.

Plus I imagine the smaller teams in the Premiership and the Top 14 might also be against it.

rawa86 wrote:

profitius wrote:The small teams do have a say if they stick together. England and France might be the biggest players in this but theres no game without the other 4 major European teams.

Plus I imagine the smaller teams in the Premiership and the Top 14 might also be against it.

Yup. It would basically be a handful of teams going it alone against everyone else.

rawa86 wrote:

profitius wrote:The small teams do have a say if they stick together. England and France might be the biggest players in this but theres no game without the other 4 major European teams.

Plus I imagine the smaller teams in the Premiership and the Top 14 might also be against it.

Yeah Raw,
But, they are too weak to affect it all. See The Football Premiership (old Div 1). See the Championship (old Div 2).
See parralels. English players demoted to a lesser league, to make way for foreign mega-tarts. That' s what would happen, if we let the basterds away with it.

I love the HC as it stands. Have big hopes for our PRO12. Love what it has done for Irish rugby. And Welsh (they are coming on board at last), Scottish and Italian rugby.
It has helped us develop teams for the HC and for our respective countries.

And those FraAnglais dont like it. Dont like it at all.

Little ol Ireland, with 5 x Winners of the HC and 3 in the last 8 this year? Versus their power and their mega-muny? Shouldnt happen.

But. It has. Feic em.

Thank Christ the Yanks are not involved, or they'd be calling it Commie Rugby.

Believe.

And dont let the basterds grind us down.

In relation to the all Irish Heineken Cup XV, against Castres, Munster finished the match with a 100% Irish team.

+1 Gibson.

I was just pointing them out, as they will probably add more voices to our side. Whether it influences the outcome or not is a different story.

Is the structure of the Heino up for review this year?

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Ferris isn't even the highest paid rugby player in Ulster, let alone Ireland.
If you mean Irish players in Ireland it is my understanding POC, BOD and Heaslip all get more.

I do not believe any concession is made to Ulster players for their disadvantage with regard to Tax.

The concession is from the ROI based players who accept less than they would get from French/English clubs because of the tax incentive to remain here.
Ulster/IRFU would have to try and match the foreign clubs offerings. For instance, do you think that Tommy Bowe will take a financial hit for going back to Ulster when he could have gone to Munster or will someone come up with the cash to compensate him for that?

I think they will (probably Ulster)!

That is not a concession to the Ulster players though - players North and South of the border are paid according to their perceived worth regardless of the differing tax rates.

Ulster do not have to match other offers to persuade Tommy Bowe to return. Tommy Bowe will be taking a significant pay cut and will be getting less than he could elsewhere. He is doing so because Ulster is the palce he wants to play his rugby. His exit was not motivate by money, his return is not motivate by money.

I'd say that Paul O'Connell would earn double what he gets in Munster in France. We know that Sexton was offered more money to move to France than what the IRFU offered him.

You've ignored my point about Ferris having a central contract (worth an average €100K extra per player) and O'Brien not having that. Then of course there is Gordon D'Arcy losing his central conract 2 years ago when he was (and still is) a definate starter and Paddy Wallace just signing another central contract although he rarely starts for Ireland.

Tommy Bowe was on huge money at the Os. He was always going to have to take a pay cut, particularly since the Os were happy if he left. POC took a paycuts in his last contract which is less than what Tommy was on. I'm actually surprised Tommy is getting a central contract - its not as if we are short of wingers, fullbacks at the moment and Ireland have managed with him playing his rugby in Wales. If Sean O'Brien can do without a central contract, Tommy Bowe should be able to do so as well.

red_stag wrote:In relation to the all Irish Heineken Cup XV, against Castres, Munster finished the match with a 100% Irish team.

Im talkin Finals Stag. Leinster have had full Irish teams on the park, umpteen times in de Heino. Lots of times in the PRO12. Like Munster. Unlike Ulster recently. Shhhush. They will bring up that meaningless win in '99.

I may need Sin E (Stato) - on this one. But I think Munster are closest to this feat, in HC Final History. 2006?

Gibson wrote:

red_stag wrote:In relation to the all Irish Heineken Cup XV, against Castres, Munster finished the match with a 100% Irish team.

Im talkin Finals Stag. Leinster have had full Irish teams on the park, umpteen times in de Heino. Lots of times in the PRO12. Like Munster. Unlike Ulster recently. Shhhush. They will bring up that meaningless win in '99.

I may need Sin E (Stato) - on this one. But I think Munster are closest to this feat, in HC Final History. 2006?

In the 2006 final, 14 of the starters were Ireland qualified (Trevor Halstead was the odd one out). Shaun Payne had an Irish granny and went on a tour with Ireland to SA but wasn't capped.

Freddie Pucciariello was the only other NIQ player in the 22 that day.

Thought so Sin. Makes it even more of an amazing feat, against the might of Europe back then. I enjoyed and revelled in it. Munsters journey

Will it ever be equalled? I hope we do it. Its been my mad dream for yonks.

How do you bench Nacewa though? Ah he's a Paddy anyway. He drinks pints in Devitts of Camden St. His folks are friends of the GAA family that run it. His folks know their folks.
Paddy-Fijian connections eh? Can't bate them.

Sin é wrote:
I'd say that Paul O'Connell would earn double what he gets in Munster in France. We know that Sexton was offered more money to move to France than what the IRFU offered him.

You've ignored my point about Ferris having a central contract (worth an average €100K extra per player) and O'Brien not having that. Then of course there is Gordon D'Arcy losing his central conract 2 years ago when he was (and still is) a definate starter and Paddy Wallace just signing another central contract although he rarely starts for Ireland.

Tommy Bowe was on huge money at the Os. He was always going to have to take a pay cut, particularly since the Os were happy if he left. POC took a paycuts in his last contract which is less than what Tommy was on. I'm actually surprised Tommy is getting a central contract - its not as if we are short of wingers, fullbacks at the moment and Ireland have managed with him playing his rugby in Wales. If Sean O'Brien can do without a central contract, Tommy Bowe should be able to do so as well.

Ferris is not getting a central contract at O'Briens expense. I agree that O'Brien should also get a contract but the is David Wallace still on one? If so then you wouldn't expect O'Brien to get one too.

Fair point on Paddy. On last nights form hes the best 12 in the country along with McFadden but I don't think either him or D'arcy should have a central contact.

Tommy Bowe certainly should get a contract. He's been arguably Irelands best back over the past 4 seasons and along with BOD and Kearney the only genuine world class back. People have short memories...funny how the knives come out when Bowe resigns for Ulster......

Paul O'Connell probably would earn a fortune in France but when you take the tax rebate into account he'd probably be better off in Ireland. TOL's agent recently said his 10 year earnings would be much higher in Ireland than France.

Ulster had a all Irish XV in the RABO a couple of times this season but of course no one seemed to notice....

Surely Central Contracts should at least include the regular starters and that includes Bowe.
SOB will get a central contract when other expire - Leamy ?, Wallace, D'Arcy for example will not be renewed.

My point on Ferris that even with a central contract he is still not the highest paid player at Ulster, or the highest paid Irish player.

Both Ferris and Bowe could have got more elsewhere - they chose not to do so.

Howlett has extended his contract...not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere?

Can someone please explain what a central contract actually is. I understand that it’s probably worth more money (or is that an incorrect assumption?) and that part of your wages are paid by the IRFU with the province paying the rest. But what does it actually mean?

Taking O’Brien as an example of a starter who doesn’t have one. He can only play as many games for Leinster as the IRFU mandate, so what’s the difference between his contract and Ferris’s? is it just the wage?

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I'd say that Paul O'Connell would earn double what he gets in Munster in France. We know that Sexton was offered more money to move to France than what the IRFU offered him.

You've ignored my point about Ferris having a central contract (worth an average €100K extra per player) and O'Brien not having that. Then of course there is Gordon D'Arcy losing his central conract 2 years ago when he was (and still is) a definate starter and Paddy Wallace just signing another central contract although he rarely starts for Ireland.

Tommy Bowe was on huge money at the Os. He was always going to have to take a pay cut, particularly since the Os were happy if he left. POC took a paycuts in his last contract which is less than what Tommy was on. I'm actually surprised Tommy is getting a central contract - its not as if we are short of wingers, fullbacks at the moment and Ireland have managed with him playing his rugby in Wales. If Sean O'Brien can do without a central contract, Tommy Bowe should be able to do so as well.

Ferris is not getting a central contract at O'Briens expense. I agree that O'Brien should also get a contract but the is David Wallace still on one? If so then you wouldn't expect O'Brien to get one too.

Fair point on Paddy. On last nights form hes the best 12 in the country along with McFadden but I don't think either him or D'arcy should have a central contact.

Tommy Bowe certainly should get a contract. He's been arguably Irelands best back over the past 4 seasons and along with BOD and Kearney the only genuine world class back. People have short memories...funny how the knives come out when Bowe resigns for Ulster......

Paul O'Connell probably would earn a fortune in France but when you take the tax rebate into account he'd probably be better off in Ireland. TOL's agent recently said his 10 year earnings would be much higher in Ireland than France.

Ulster had a all Irish XV in the RABO a couple of times this season but of course no one seemed to notice....

So it should be at David Wallace''s expense and not Ferris! Ha! Only so much cash to go around - some players seem to be very lucky to get these contracts now! (David Wallace was on a one year contract from this time last year). SOB got a 3 year contract from Leinster last year.

Tommy Bowe has been poor for the last year. He doesn't deserve a contract above Keith Earls, who no matter what you may think about him, is invaluable as a utility player. Earls looks to have lost his central contract as well recently.

Did Ulster win any of their games when they had their Irish xv out?

roddersm wrote:Howlett has extended his contract...not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere?

I did. Very pleased about that - much more valuable to Munster than Tommy Bowe as a mentor/coach/player.

geoff999rugby wrote:Surely Central Contracts should at least include the regular starters and that includes Bowe.
SOB will get a central contract when other expire - Leamy ?, Wallace, D'Arcy for example will not be renewed.

My point on Ferris that even with a central contract he is still not the highest paid player at Ulster, or the highest paid Irish player.

Both Ferris and Bowe could have got more elsewhere - they chose not to do so.

The IRFU are cutting back on all central contracts. D'Arcy lost his central contract 2 years ago (along with Stringer & Horan). Leamy & Earls have just signed new contracts with Munster.

I'd well imagine that Pienaar is on a fair wedge for Ulster. All the foreign players on better money. Botha is on the same money as Paul O'Connell (who took a paycut to stay in Munster).

Most players want to stay in Ireland - and all the top players like POC & ROG would have had big offers from elsewhere.

Sin yes if SOB gets a contract it should be at David Wallace expense. Hes playing openside isn't he?

Sorry but thats tosh about Bowe and Earls. No way is Earls as valuable to Ireland as Bowe. Not even close.

Mickado wrote:Can someone please explain what a central contract actually is. I understand that it’s probably worth more money (or is that an incorrect assumption?) and that part of your wages are paid by the IRFU with the province paying the rest. But what does it actually mean?

Taking O’Brien as an example of a starter who doesn’t have one. He can only play as many games for Leinster as the IRFU mandate, so what’s the difference between his contract and Ferris’s? is it just the wage?

Probably means more for Leinster in that they have to come up with the money themselves to match the offers SOB would have got elsewhere.

Leinster could probably play SOB as much as they wanted, but they know its in their own interests that he is a) playing at international level and b) that he isn't wrecked by overplaying.

There is clear a situation where a player is in the Ireland squad but doesn't get paid and their time is curtailed.

Tom Court doesn't have a Central Contract but is not selected for Ulster a few times a year as requested/demanded by Dublin.
Obviously he could ignore but it would blow his place in the International squad.

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:Howlett has extended his contract...not sure if this has been mentioned elsewhere?

I did. Very pleased about that - much more valuable to Munster than Tommy Bowe as a mentor/coach/player.

Sin you wouldn't be advocating the retention of overseas players at the expense of signing Irish Qualified ones now? That's not like you? Munsters almost all kiwi 3/4 line and springbok front row doesn't seem to bother you as much as Ulsters SA colony?......

Rodders, seriously, what valid grievences you had/have about the media highlighting the number of Saffers at Ulster is evaporating when you start to fling mud too.

It is massively problematic that 2/3rds of Munster's starting FR is NIQ, no arguments there, but seeing as Mafi is leaving before Casey arrives, that is a (fully fit) 1st choice backline of (likely):

Murray, ROG (Keatley potentially)
Lualala, Earls,
Zebo, Howlett,
Jones.

With Downey, J Murphy, De Hurley, Deasey, TOL (or Duncan Williams if TOL goes) and O'Dea all IQ players to fill any gaps.

Not Ideal, but no team, not even the mighty Leinster, can field a 1st Choice 100% IQ XV.

Well actually, Leinster could very easily field an all irish XV in fairness.

But Leinster wouldn't be fielding a 1st choice 100% IQ XV as Nacewa is the remaining top quality NIQ that is a given to break into the team and screw up the argument.

I'd also just add though that the drop from Nacewa to the Irish equivalent (Shaggy though injured, D Kearney probably, Fitz maybe) isn't so big that shifting from 1st choice XV to best IQ XV is a serious drop in overall quality. If the other provinces were to try a similar comparision between 1st choice and best IQ the drop in strength would be more noticeable?

Well Nacewa in Leinster's full strength team would be at 15 for me rather than at wing. There are better wingers than him, but at 15 he is the best in europe probably. Next option is Kearney at 15 who has been exceptional and will be the starting 15 for Leinster/Ireland. Nacewa is still slightly better probably, but only just. Leinster have two world class 15s.

roddersm wrote:Sin yes if SOB gets a contract it should be at David Wallace expense. Hes playing openside isn't he?

Sorry but thats tosh about Bowe and Earls. No way is Earls as valuable to Ireland as Bowe. Not even close.

When sob signed his last contract, he was playing blindside as ferris was out with a long-term injury with question marks over whether he could remain injury free and David Wallace was fighting fit.

You haven't explained the D'Arcy/Wallace (even McFadden) thing ! If you don't like the comparisons of value to Team Ireland of Bowe/Earls, how about trimble (who has a central contract) v. Earls.

Ulster all Irish XV:

1 McCallistar
2 Best
3 Court
4 Stevenson
5 Touhy
6 Ferris
7 Faloon
8 Henry
9 Marshall
10 IHumph
11 Gilroy
12 Wallace
13 Cave
14 Trimble
15 D'arcy

Sin é wrote:
You haven't explained the D'Arcy/Wallace (even McFadden) thing ! If you don't like the comparisons of value to Team Ireland of Bowe/Earls, how about trimble (who has a central contract) v. Earls.

What do you want me to explain sin? Out of all of the players above Bowe is by far the most valuable to Ireland and the first one I'd give a central contract too.

He's Irelands best and most valuable back along with BOD,Kearney and Sexton in my opinion.

I always enjoy reading this blog. Interesting thoughts on wages.

http://whiffofcordite.blogspot.com/2012/02/follow-money-jimmy.html

`Can I ask why you are so certain that Bowe is more valuable to Ireland than Earls? Seriously, Earls value is that he is a) our more prolific winger, b) our best cover option for FB when there are injuries c) our best option at 13 in ijuries, adjustments and d) he has by far the best kicking game of the three players mentioned above. Yet Bowe is more valuable.....hmmm....

It is not like Tommy Bowe is John Hayes, 2003-2009 here. Where we didn't have cover or realistic options, but when Earls is our (pretty useful in all positions it must be said) emergency option for 13 & 15 and able to demand a starting jersey at 11 or 14, i think Deccie & co and his team mates might disagree with you..

Does it really matter who is "more valuable". Clearly central contracts do not equate to usefulness or else O'Brien would have one and Paddy Wallace/Denis Leamy wouldn't.

debaters1 wrote:`Can I ask why you are so certain that Bowe is more valuable to Ireland than Earls?

Bowe has scored and created more match winning tries against top tier sides than any other player bar O'Driscoll. Like O'Driscoll and Kearney hes a test lion and proven world class player.

Earls has a flattering strike rate against weaker international sides. The two are not comparable.

Debaters,

a) Bowe has scored more tries than Earls and is therefore more prolific.
b) The experiment of having Earls cover fullback was quickly discarded.
c) At the minute I agree.
d) Not sure where this comes from. Earls isn't known for his kicking game any more than Bowe or Trimble.

I think Bowe has proved time and again what a great player he is for Ireland. I would certainly have him ahead of Earls by way of worth.

Have to disagree there Rava about Earls covering full back being quickly discarded. I feel it is his best position.

I cant see Earls getting anywhere near the 15 shirt with Kearney backed up by Jones

Neither do I really, but that doesn't mean I don't think it is his best position. He is going to be challenged no matter where he plays.

Rava didn't say it wasn't Rory, just that he hasn't been considered there since, therefore it has been clearly discarded as a serious option by Ireland.

True, apologies Rava. I wonder how long it will be before he is discarded as a serious option at 13.