Will the Irish provinces suffer a players exodus?

First topic message reminder :

Whether it is a "development" league or not, the Celtic League has been able to provide the Irish provinces with a continuing supply of players. The induction of guys like Sean O'Brien, Keith Earls, Cian Healy, Peter O'Mahony and Craig Gilroy has been almost seamless and we are beginning to see strenght in depth and whats more Irish strenght in depth.

In one of Munster's pool stage matches in the Heineken Cup this season the bench included Marcus Horan, John Hayes, Donnacha O'Callaghan, Denis Leamy and Tomas O'Leary. Not so long ago that was a third of Irelands national team.

We are now at a stage where (despite reports of an "aging" team) most of Irelands internationals are in their mid 20s with even younger guys champing at the bit for selection in both provinces and internationally.

Do Irish fans expect to see a bit of an exodus in recent years? I just don't see that many players being happy to sit around as backup for their provinces. Despite the efforts of the IRFU to get Irish players for Irish provinces I would expect to see an increase in the amount of players leaving. Why sit on a bench at Leinster when you can go to England and play week in week out. Not even England as it usually was but I expect to see a few of our internationals end up in France or SANZAR.

Sin é wrote:Munster are fine. We don't need a leg up from the IRFU.

The IRFU own and fund Munster the same as the other provinces. No IRFU means no Thomond park, no O'Gara, no O'Connell, no HEC cups, no Earls, no Wally....in fact no Munster.

Exactly we are all very very reliant on the IRFU to believe any else is living in cloud cuckoo land

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:My point all along is that Ulster have been getting extra funding and it is Ulster's choice to spend it on bringing in Southern Hemisphere players rather than compensate their own players for their loss of earnings in comparison to the rest of the ROI tax resident players.

Except that Don and I were actually talking about that a page ago.

And this loss of earnings thing, is that something you've invented in your head or what? Who's been saying the IRFU should compensate Ulster players for that?

Ulster posters are always moaning that they can't compete with the rest of the provinces for the overflow talent because the ROI based players are reluctant to move to Ulster because of the tax thing.

Then you hear that players like Ferris needs to be paid more because he does not have the tax incentive thing to hold him in Ulster.

A shorter way of saying that is "loss of earnings".

Never heard it mentioned before, but now you bring in up sin thats a brill idea. I think the IRFU should.

Do you think the Munster stadium loan ment that the IRFU didn't have enough money to support Connacht, and hence when they looked to move to 3 provinces. Bet they wouldn't have though about that if they didn't give Munster the Loan and had £10 mill in their account.

It's all swings and roundabouts, Ulsters turn on the swings and the minute, with Connacht lining up waiting for thier turn. Munster weren't complaining while the IRFU give them a push on the swings, I remember the Munster folk going 'Wheeeeeeeeeee'

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote: My point all along is that Ulster have been getting extra funding and it is Ulster's choice to spend it on bringing in Southern Hemisphere players rather than compensate their own players for their loss of earnings in comparison to the rest of the ROI tax resident players.

You have not proven the extra funding argument- the McNaughton quote only talks about more money being put in - but relative to what ?
My contention is that the money put into Ulster did receive a boost, but that was relative to what had gone before not relative to Munster and Leinster - Shane Logan seems to agree with me.

As I have explained Ulster received less money, for understandable reasons, for years.

I simply do not accept that taking all elements into account Ulsters salary bill is any higher than Munster or Leinster.

How we use that money is to get the best squad possible - that seems to me to be simple common sense.

McNaughton said "more money was pumped in" not "more money was put in". It is relative to Munster & Leinster "who (according to McNaughton) have better revenue streams".

McNaughton said that money was "pumped" into Ulster and it was left up to Ulster to figure out how to spend it, and they chose to invest mostly in NIQ players.


Munster & Leinster have to maintain bigger squads (at their own expense) to cover the absences of the many players they have on their books that are not on central contracts. For instance, at some stage Munster had 3 hookers involved in the rugby world cup in NZ (Flannery, Varley & Sherry). Munster lost David Wallace, Flannery & Felix Jones through injury playing for Ireland this season alone. The season before we lost Paul O'Connell for a season (groin infection from getting pain killing injections when on Ireland duty)!

Kingshu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:My point all along is that Ulster have been getting extra funding and it is Ulster's choice to spend it on bringing in Southern Hemisphere players rather than compensate their own players for their loss of earnings in comparison to the rest of the ROI tax resident players.

Except that Don and I were actually talking about that a page ago.

And this loss of earnings thing, is that something you've invented in your head or what? Who's been saying the IRFU should compensate Ulster players for that?

Ulster posters are always moaning that they can't compete with the rest of the provinces for the overflow talent because the ROI based players are reluctant to move to Ulster because of the tax thing.

Then you hear that players like Ferris needs to be paid more because he does not have the tax incentive thing to hold him in Ulster.

A shorter way of saying that is "loss of earnings".

Never heard it mentioned before, but now you bring in up sin thats a brill idea. I think the IRFU should.

Do you think the Munster stadium loan ment that the IRFU didn't have enough money to support Connacht, and hence when they looked to move to 3 provinces. Bet they wouldn't have though about that if they didn't give Munster the Loan and had £10 mill in their account.

It's all swings and roundabouts, Ulsters turn on the swings and the minute, with Connacht lining up waiting for thier turn. Munster weren't complaining while the IRFU give them a push on the swings, I remember the Munster folk going 'Wheeeeeeeeeee'

Slightly different lending money to invest in a stadium that will service the province for the next 30 years (and will generate income) to investing in some southern hemisphere player's pension plan (and will be gone in 2/3 years time).

Nope you still haven't proved the point that Ulster get more.

Leinster and Munster may well have better revenue streams they also have larger squads, as you mention, and more outgoings because of their ground situations.

Ulster ground costs are minimal so they put the money they do received in top NIQ players - so what

Sin é wrote:
Munster & Leinster have to maintain bigger squads (at their own expense) to cover the absences of the many players they have on their books that are not on central contracts.

How can it be at their own expense when they are subsidised and owned by the IRFU and the players come from IRFU funded academies?

Sin é wrote:
Slightly different lending money to invest in a stadium that will service the province for the next 30 years (and will generate income) to investing in some southern hemisphere player's pension plan (and will be gone in 2/3 years time).

I thought you were happy that Howlett got a new contract? BJs wage doesn't seem to bother you much nor does the signing of Laulua?

geoff998rugby wrote:Nope you still haven't proved the point that Ulster get more.

Leinster and Munster may well have better revenue streams they also have larger squads, as you mention, and more outgoings because of their ground situations.

Ulster ground costs are minimal so they put the money they do received in top NIQ players - so what

Well, you haven't proved that Ulster don't get more. I'm going on what Paul McNaughton claimed in a National Newspaper that money was "pumped" into Ulster.

So what?

We used be told that there was a "big 3" who got equal funding and Connacht got less.

Your confirming now that although the big 3 used have the same income, Leinster & Munster made the most of what they got and Ulster didn't and need the extra money from the IRFU.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Slightly different lending money to invest in a stadium that will service the province for the next 30 years (and will generate income) to investing in some southern hemisphere player's pension plan (and will be gone in 2/3 years time).

I thought you were happy that Howlett got a new contract? BJs wage doesn't seem to bother you much nor does the signing of Laulua?

Munster are not getting money from the IRFU to bring in BJ or Howlett, they got a loan from the IRFU to help them finance the rebuilding of a 26,000 seater stadium which generates income for Munster.

PS - I'm very happy with Howlett & BJ. Mind, we could do with Jerry Cronin as backup.

This must go down as the most ridiculous debate on 606.

Basically all you’re arguing about is which team is best with their money, which one needs more, which spends more etc.

I don’t support a financial institution, I support a rugby team.

Sin é wrote:
Your confirming now that although the big 3 used have the same income, Leinster & Munster made the most of what they got and Ulster didn't and need the extra money from the IRFU.

Who said that?

So now you are saying that Munster get the same from the IRFU as Leinster? A few posts ago you were saying Munster didn't need the IRFU?

Sin, I've been reading through this thread and all I can say is kindly wind your neck back in. There are plenty of instances of news articles being inaccurate. That article might be accurate, it might not be. But just as you have chosen to believe that article and I respect your choice, please respect other people on here who believe otherwise.

Sin é wrote:
Munster are not getting money from the IRFU to bring in BJ or Howlett

Of course they are you ...the IRFU fund Munster and control all the overseas signings.

Sin é wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Nope you still haven't proved the point that Ulster get more.

Leinster and Munster may well have better revenue streams they also have larger squads, as you mention, and more outgoings because of their ground situations.

Ulster ground costs are minimal so they put the money they do received in top NIQ players - so what

Well, you haven't proved that Ulster don't get more. I'm going on what Paul McNaughton claimed in a National Newspaper that money was "pumped" into Ulster.

So what?

We used be told that there was a "big 3" who got equal funding and Connacht got less.

Your confirming now that although the big 3 used have the same income, Leinster & Munster made the most of what they got and Ulster didn't and need the extra money from the IRFU.

Or as Geoff pointed out the big 3 didn't have the same income form the IRFU, Ulster got less for a long period of time (due to management issues). It was big 2, Ulster then Connacht.

You could argue that we should be recieving more as the IRFU held back some of Ulster equal share over the years, and could now recieve it!

Mickado wrote:This must go down as the most ridiculous debate on 606.

Basically all you’re arguing about is which team is best with their money, which one needs more, which spends more etc.

I don’t support a financial institution, I support a rugby team.

Not really. Personally, I am just sitting, open-mouthed in astonishment, as Sin twists and tortures logic, cause and effect and the laws of reality into headache-inducing shapes to avoid backing down. A wee jibe every now and then drives him into yet-more incalcuable cruelty to the very concept of rationality.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Sin, I've been reading through this thread and all I can say is kindly wind your neck back in. There are plenty of instances of news articles being inaccurate. That article might be accurate, it might not be. But just as you have chosen to believe that article and I respect your choice, please respect other people on here who believe otherwise.

Thats not a news article. That is a direct quote from a fairly recently retired senior IRFU member of staff. I seem to recall as well that he used to sit on the committee that approved all provincial signings.

McNaughton's biog
Leinster Rugby Team
McNaughton was appointed Director of Rugby at Leinster in 2005. After two years in that position, he became Chairman of the Board at Leinster. During his time at Leinster, he was known for his battles with Irish Coach Eddie O'Sullivan over the IRFU's control over Leinster and O'Sullivan's delayed release of Leinster players after Ireland training camps.
[edit] Ireland Rugby Team

In May 2008, McNaughton was appointed manager of the Irish Rugby team, working along side head coach Declan Kidney, a partnership previously held at Leinster. McNaughton won the 2009 Grand Slam with Ireland. He announced his resignation from the position shortly after the 2011 World Cup, agreeing to stay on and help in the search for an appropriate replacement. A replacement is expected before the 2012 Six Nations.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Munster are not getting money from the IRFU to bring in BJ or Howlett

Of course they are you ...the IRFU fund Munster and control all the overseas signings.

So you think BJ & Howlett are on about €80K a season

Sin é wrote: Well, you haven't proved that Ulster don't get more. I'm going on what Paul McNaughton claimed in a National Newspaper that money was "pumped" into Ulster.

And I'm going with Shane Logan who is a better position to know than McNaughton. I also note that McNaughton has not been in a position where awareness of the funding to the difference Provinces would be in his remit since Logan took over at Ulster.

Sin é wrote: We used be told that there was a "big 3" who got equal funding and Connacht got less.

Your confirming now that although the big 3 used have the same income, Leinster & Munster made the most of what they got and Ulster didn't and need the extra money from the IRFU.

How you infer that from what I said I'll never know.
My statement was that Ulster used to get less than Leisnter and Munster and the amount has gone up such that we are now on an equal footing.

Don Alfonso wrote:

Mickado wrote:This must go down as the most ridiculous debate on 606.

Basically all you’re arguing about is which team is best with their money, which one needs more, which spends more etc.

I don’t support a financial institution, I support a rugby team.

Not really. Personally, I am just sitting, open-mouthed in astonishment, as Sin twists and tortures logic, cause and effect and the laws of reality into headache-inducing shapes to avoid backing down. A wee jibe every now and then drives him into yet-more incalcuable cruelty to the very concept of rationality.

Why are so many so anxious to dismiss the words of Paul McNaughton as some journalist with an anti-Ulster agenda.

Why are you so anxious to dismiss the public statements of a Provincial CEO.

Once again sin, where has anyone said Paul McNaughton has an anti-ulster agenda? Where do these claims come from?

geoff998rugby wrote:Why are you so anxious to dismiss the public statements of a Provincial CEO.

Have you a link to them?

Mickado wrote:This must go down as the most ridiculous debate on 606.

Basically all you’re arguing about is which team is best with their money, which one needs more, which spends more etc.

I don’t support a financial institution, I support a rugby team.

YES! Thank you.

It's guilty fun for us sure, like some form of online bear-baiting, but it's also worrying how sane and rational certain other posters are made to look by Sin E

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Munster are not getting money from the IRFU to bring in BJ or Howlett

Of course they are you ...the IRFU fund Munster and control all the overseas signings.

So you think BJ & Howlett are on about €80K a season

I don't know what they are on but I know that if Munster was a stand alone club rather than a branch of the IRFU then they wouldn't be able to afford them, nor would they able to keep the likes of O'Connell, O'Gara, Wallace, Earls, O'Leary, Flannery, O'Callaghan etc. several of whom are getting their wages directly from the IRFU.

They also wouldn't have an academy which produces players like Zebo, Ryan, POM or Murray. They wouldn't have a shiny new stadium or top class training facilities.

If you think all this comes from money generated by Munster alone then you are deluded.

Can we stop this Munster vs Ulster cr%p. B!tching about one another does no good. Leinster is the team who gets all the special treatment. Why do you think the Aviva was built right in the heart of D4!

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Munster are not getting money from the IRFU to bring in BJ or Howlett

Of course they are you ...the IRFU fund Munster and control all the overseas signings.

So you think BJ & Howlett are on about €80K a season

I don't know what they are on but I know that if Munster was a stand alone club rather than a branch of the IRFU then they wouldn't be able to afford them, nor would they able to keep the likes of O'Connell, O'Gara, Wallace, Earls, O'Leary, Flannery, O'Callaghan etc. several of whom are getting their wages directly from the IRFU.

They also wouldn't have an academy which produces players like Zebo, Ryan, POM or Murray. They wouldn't have a shiny new stadium or top class training facilities.

If you think all this comes from money generated by Munster alone then you are deluded.

True, true, Rodders. but it's a two edge sword of sorts. The Provinces hold onto their best players and are able to afford some nice foreigners because of funding from IRFU. The IRFU in turn have funding to dish out because of what these Provinces then do and have been doing now for ten years or so. Doing well in the Celtic leagues (money dished out and sponsorship clout) plus doing pretty well at HC (money dished out and sponsorship clout) And Provincial success carries through (Theoretically!) to International success where the players that were kept are more familiar with each other and it's not such a monetary and logistical burden collecting them from the four corners of the planet (more money for Six Nations positions etc.)

It's kind of a circular process, the IRFU fund Provinces and are themselves funded by the success that comes from Provincial and International sides. Or in other words, a pretty neat self-perpetuating business plan. Until the last year or so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's why we all know that if the losses continue at International level, coaches will feel the IRFU strain.

profitius wrote:Can we stop this Munster vs Ulster cr%p. B!tching about one another does no good. Leinster is the team who gets all the special treatment. Why do you think the Aviva was built right in the heart of D4!

I don't like that Leinster Aviva was kitted out in Connacht's colour though!

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:Munster are fine. We don't need a leg up from the IRFU.

The IRFU own and fund Munster the same as the other provinces. No IRFU means no Thomond park, no O'Gara, no O'Connell, no HEC cups, no Earls, no Wally....in fact no Munster.

So you think Munster & Leinster's budget is about €5m a year

Where do the IRFU get all the money to fund the province?

that's right. O'Gara, O'Connell, Wally leave Munster and head off to Lansdowne Road and other places and they earn the money to pay their wages.

Mickado wrote:This must go down as the most ridiculous debate on 606.

Basically all you’re arguing about is which team is best with their money, which one needs more, which spends more etc.

I don’t support a financial institution, I support a rugby team.

Agreed - but it is funny!!

Sin I have no idea what you are talking about now.

I give up... just keep on spouting your anti Ulster and anti Ireland bile man..... I've no idea how you got to be so bitter but good luck to you

geoff998rugby wrote:

Sin é wrote: Well, you haven't proved that Ulster don't get more. I'm going on what Paul McNaughton claimed in a National Newspaper that money was "pumped" into Ulster.

And I'm going with Shane Logan who is a better position to know than McNaughton. I also note that McNaughton has not been in a position where awareness of the funding to the difference Provinces would be in his remit since Logan took over at Ulster.

Sin é wrote: We used be told that there was a "big 3" who got equal funding and Connacht got less.

Your confirming now that although the big 3 used have the same income, Leinster & Munster made the most of what they got and Ulster didn't and need the extra money from the IRFU.

How you infer that from what I said I'll never know.
My statement was that Ulster used to get less than Leisnter and Munster and the amount has gone up such that we are now on an equal footing.

Well my view is that Paul McNaughton is in a far better spot to know what all the provinces are getting. How would Logan know what Munster or Leinster are getting? Tom Grace (the IRFU treasurer) is just as likely to discuss it with his old Ireland teammate McNaughton (who happens to be an economist) as he is with Shane Logan who is fairly recent in the job.

Can we not just all agree that Leinster are the IRFU's teacher's pets, and quietly nurse a bubbling, festering resentment of them and their success?

I don't think there are teachers pets at all, this is why it's so funny.

Some guys here know absolutely everything you'd ever need to know [on anything]....both the intricacies of Irish scrum theory from August 2003 to February 2012 to the tea lady's name at IRFU head office.

That's the bit I find constantly funny. How much hacking do you need to do to be able to say you know the toilet cleaner at IRFU head office?

Like Mikado said earlier...I think I'll stick with to the rugby bit.

Eeeeeeeeemmmmmmmmmmmmm Bored of this now!

The people I feel sorry for are the ones who think they are going to find an actual debate on whether Irish players might head overseas. You can't half tell when a thread has been Sin E'd

Notch – the term Sin E means “that’s it”, it’s used in Irish the same way that “full stop” is used in English or “period” is used by Americans.

So that’s it lads, that’s the end of the thread.

Sin É.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi30KJoejeo

IRFU are doing a much better job than they're Welsh counter parts (in running the game). The Provances are doing a much better than the regions, and are WINNING in the HC.

Irish rugby has historic teams, that have developed they're own rugby culture and have encorportared fans into the decision making process of the teams they support. (Total opposite to the Welsh regions)

Because of the support and continued success on the pitch, generally means continued success off it. Meaning, you wont be seeing any mass exodus like in Wales.

roddersm wrote:Sin I have no idea what you are talking about now.

I give up... just keep on spouting your anti Ulster and anti Ireland bile man..... I've no idea how you got to be so bitter but good luck to you

Just shows how your mind works - you claim not to know what I'm talking about then go on to say I'm just spouting anti-Ulster and Ireland bile and that I'm bitter.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, maybe you shouldn't be jumping to all these conclusions

....I was on the bus into Dublin a couple of weeks ago and I looked out the window and saw a big red neon sign saying "SIN E" ....... couldn't believe it! near fell off my seat in shock! ......just when I thought I'd escaped the wumming feicer for the weekend!

Notch wrote:The people I feel sorry for are the ones who think they are going to find an actual debate on whether Irish players might head overseas. You can't half tell when a thread has been Sin E'd

eh, players might head abroad for financial reasons

roddersm wrote:....I was on the bus into Dublin a couple of weeks ago and I looked out the window and saw a big red neon sign saying "SIN E" ....... couldn't believe it! near fell off my seat in shock! ......just when I thought I'd escaped the wumming feicer for the weekend!

You think I'm wumming

edit: If I am, I very successful at it anyway

roddersm wrote:....I was on the bus into Dublin a couple of weeks ago and I looked out the window and saw a big red neon sign saying "SIN E" ....... couldn't believe it! near fell off my seat in shock! ......just when I thought I'd escaped the wumming feicer for the weekend!

I know it well.

Sin é wrote:
edit: If I am, I very successful at it anyway

Now that I agree with .....

Sin é will be writing to the Dublin City Council to have that offensive sign removed!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, not destroyed...just removed to a less offensive city................ in a less offensive Province.

Its a bar I think fly....needless to say I didn't venture into it.... wasn't sure who I might have bumped into in there......

Ah I respect old - or young - Sin é. He sticks to his guns. He uses anything he can get his hands on to perfect and qualify and substantiate his arguments...but I've never once seen him try to lose an argument by losing his head, losing his composure or throwing up personal insults. At least I've never witnessed it.

So I respect that and respect him.

Ahh I respect old Sin E too! ... the guy's infuriating at times... a master at shifting the point of attack at key times to avoid being put on the back foot...... a bit Leinster -esque one might say ...

roddersm wrote:Ahh I respect old Sin E too! ... the guy's infuriating at times... a master at shifting the point of attack at key times to avoid being put on the back foot...... a bit Leinster -esque one might say ...