Will the Irish provinces suffer a players exodus?

First topic message reminder :

Whether it is a "development" league or not, the Celtic League has been able to provide the Irish provinces with a continuing supply of players. The induction of guys like Sean O'Brien, Keith Earls, Cian Healy, Peter O'Mahony and Craig Gilroy has been almost seamless and we are beginning to see strenght in depth and whats more Irish strenght in depth.

In one of Munster's pool stage matches in the Heineken Cup this season the bench included Marcus Horan, John Hayes, Donnacha O'Callaghan, Denis Leamy and Tomas O'Leary. Not so long ago that was a third of Irelands national team.

We are now at a stage where (despite reports of an "aging" team) most of Irelands internationals are in their mid 20s with even younger guys champing at the bit for selection in both provinces and internationally.

Do Irish fans expect to see a bit of an exodus in recent years? I just don't see that many players being happy to sit around as backup for their provinces. Despite the efforts of the IRFU to get Irish players for Irish provinces I would expect to see an increase in the amount of players leaving. Why sit on a bench at Leinster when you can go to England and play week in week out. Not even England as it usually was but I expect to see a few of our internationals end up in France or SANZAR.

Notch wrote:According to the IRFU, the Ireland national team is subsidising everyone via ticket sales, merchandising, sponsorship and TV money. The money flows from the national team into the provinces... not vice versa.

Yeah, they say that. But. I really do feel that Leinster filling the A.. Lansdowne, every few months, feeds them too.

I dont see it. How can 5 x 6-N games and the AI's feed us all? OK we made the usual RWC QF few bob this year. But. I just dont see it.

Sponsorship deals must be massive so. And, they get shekels from all our respective HC games and the resultant sponsorship. A lot of them recently. Who is feeding who?

I want to see a Statement of Accounts.

I'm assuming that the sponsorship deals around the national team must be pretty hefty? O2 and Guinness must contribute a lot.

Notch wrote:I'm assuming that the sponsorship deals around the national team must be pretty hefty? O2 and Guinness must contribute a lot.

Must be Notch.

Rava wrote:The IRFU own Ravenhill. Do they also own Thomond?

IRFU own the ground - similar situation to Lansdowne Road with a stadium company - IRFU own the ground, the stadium companies own whats over the ground (buildings, etc). The stadium companies pay a ground rent to the IRFU every year.

The IRFU have a 50% interest (with the Munster branch) in the Thomond Park Stadium which the Munster branch can buy back by repaying the €10m loan they got by 2018.

All info is available in the IRFU's annual report.

for 2010-11:

Income from representative matches €64.6m.
Professional games costs were €34.4m.

International rugby income: 33,234M
commercial income €8.6m
deferred ticket income: €13.3m
erc and provincial income: €9.324m
gov. grants €3.3m.

---expenditure---
nat camps and squads €1m
national match costs €4m
Player and Management costs: €28m

Sin,
For once, those stats mean a lot. National sponsorship is what it is all about so.

Thanks.

Notch wrote:According to the IRFU, the Ireland national team is subsidising everyone via ticket sales, merchandising, sponsorship and TV money. The money flows from the national team into the provinces... not vice versa.

I was going to say that Notch. Munster, Leinster and Ulster are all subsidised by the National team, The IRFU fund the academies and contribute to the wages etc. allowing all the teams to develop, attract and retain players.

Therefore a successful Ulster which contributes to the success of the national side certainly benefits Munster and Leinster and vice versa.

Gibson I'd imagine a lot of the money comes from TV coverage of the 6N and Autumn Internationals as well as the sponsorship. The IRFU have stated numerous times the the 6N is main revenue driver and priority for Irish rugby.

Having seen the change to the Province I have to say Shane Logan is the best thing that has happened to Ulster rugby. In so many small ways he is doing the right thing.

The single major reason Ulster are able to sign highly quality NIQ is, Humphreys persuasive techniques aside, is that they are, largely, unburdened by ground costs such as Rent(Leinster) or Loan repayments(Munster). This frees up cash for players.

Having said that, it remains my understanding, that no player at Ulster (Irish on NIQ) is paid as much as the top 2 players at Munster or the top 2 players at Leinster. (I conceed that there is no much in it though).

Ulster may be getting more cash now (I remain to be convinced), but for a decade we were getting substantially less due to Dublin not trusting the managment at the time. Again I have to be honest and say I don't blame them. What amazes me is that didn't apply more pressure to get rid of the idiots in charge.

Crowds count for a small proportion of a Provinces income. TV, Sponsorship and merchandise are all right up there. Money flows from the IRFU to all 4 Provinces.

As for a definitive list of Central Contracts - Ulster have 4
Trimble, Best, Ferris, Wallace (this is only for 1 more year).
Bowe will make 5.

geoff998rugby wrote:
As for a definitive list of Central Contracts - Ulster have 4
Trimble, Best, Ferris, Wallace (this is only for 1 more year).
Bowe will make 5.

Well there you go Geoff. Contrary to Sins view, the IRFU are propping up Munster more than us. How can they justify that we only get 4 central contracts vs Munsters 7 or 8? Clearly we are the better side now and this will be confirmed on Easter sunday........

And it because of the smaller number of Central Contract I think Ulster do not receive more money, overall, than Leinster or Munster, form Dublin.

Effectively they get more assistance with IQ contracts and they have more ground costs.
We on the other hand get more assistance with NIQ contracts.

One side balances out the other.

I think we're going to see more of this over the next year or 2, Munster fans won't like it when we upsurge them to number 2 province. Think what it was like when Leinster took over them as number one, but our target isn't being the number two province it should be number one.

On a side note about earlier Earls and Bowe central contracts, in my opinion Earls has been given more caps by Kidney than he really deserves.
The 11 shirt should be Trimbles, he showed it before the world cup and he's showing it again now, but I bet when BOD is back, Trimble is dropped and Earls moves to the wing, it like Earls is DK's love child.
Ps I do rate Earls very highly and think he's a great player, but I do believe that on occasion he has been picked ahead of someone when he shouldn't have been.

Kingshu wrote:
On a side note about earlier Earls and Bowe central contracts, in my opinion Earls has been given more caps by Kidney than he really deserves

I agree. Bar last season against England he's yet to produce anything of note in an international jersey. In fact he hasn't produced much in a Munster jersey either in my opinion. Theres no doubt hes a talented player but hes been shown far too much preferential treatment by Kidney and the IRFU.

geoff998rugby wrote:And it because of the smaller number of Central Contract I think Ulster do not receive more money, overall, than Leinster or Munster, form Dublin.

Effectively they get more assistance with IQ contracts and they have more ground costs.
We on the other hand get more assistance with NIQ contracts.

One side balances out the other.

You think wrong then. Paul McNaughton says that money was 'pumped into Ulster' by the IRFU.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0128/1224310865799.html

In fact in one of the provinces, Ulster, more money was pumped in because they don’t have the same revenue streams as Munster and Leinster, and they used the money primarily to strengthen their squad by importing really good foreign players, and that’s been a success.”

Sin é wrote:http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0128/1224310865799.html

In fact in one of the provinces, Ulster, more money was pumped in because they don’t have the same revenue streams as Munster and Leinster, and they used the money primarily to strengthen their squad by importing really good foreign players, and that’s been a success.”

How does that mean that Leinster and Munster are financially handicapped? The money invested in Ulster comes mainly from the National side and as confirmed by Naughton in that article Leinster and Munster are also subsidised by the IRFU.

roddersm wrote:

Sin é wrote:http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0128/1224310865799.html

In fact in one of the provinces, Ulster, more money was pumped in because they don’t have the same revenue streams as Munster and Leinster, and they used the money primarily to strengthen their squad by importing really good foreign players, and that’s been a success.”

How does that mean that Leinster and Munster are financially handicapped? The money invested in Ulster comes mainly from the National side and as confirmed by Naughton in that article Leinster and Munster are also subsidised by the IRFU.

Theres only so much money to go around. If one team are getting it it means the IRFU will have less money to invest in other areas.

The IRFU wants a strong Ulster team and by giving Ulster extra funding they have gotten something back in terms of Ulster reaching the last 8 of the HEC. Luckily for Ulster they're getting the stadium upgrade paid for so that should be them sorted for the future.

I'd like to see the IRFU concentrate on developing Connacht next. They get half of Munter and Leinster so some bit of an increase would be nice.

profitius wrote:Theres only so much money to go around. If one team are getting it it means the IRFU will have less money to invest in other areas.

That is not a financial handicap because Munster and Leinster are no more entitled to the IRFU's money than Ulster are.

The IRFUs main job is to ensure a successful national side and are entitled to distribute their revenue were they see fit and were they will see the best return in terms of national success.

Leinster and Munster have had a lot of investment and continue to do so, the fact that a bigger chunk of the national teams revenue is required elsewhere right now does not make them financially handicapped.

Kingshu wrote:I think we're going to see more of this over the next year or 2, Munster fans won't like it when we upsurge them to number 2 province. Think what it was like when Leinster took over them as number one, but our target isn't being the number two province it should be number one.

On a side note about earlier Earls and Bowe central contracts, in my opinion Earls has been given more caps by Kidney than he really deserves.
The 11 shirt should be Trimbles, he showed it before the world cup and he's showing it again now, but I bet when BOD is back, Trimble is dropped and Earls moves to the wing, it like Earls is DK's love child.
Ps I do rate Earls very highly and think he's a great player, but I do believe that on occasion he has been picked ahead of someone when he shouldn't have been.

As Kidney's lovechild, its weird that Earls doesn't have a central contract and Paddy Wallace (his real lovechild) and Trimble does.

I don't think I am wrong.

The low base it was in previous years and the money targetted towards NIQ players,
does mean that far more money is going into Ulster than previously BUT

because of the counter balance of greater ground costs for Leinster and Munster and because of the greater assistance they get with respect to Central Contracts I do not believe that overall that Ulster get significantly more help from Dublin than the others. What they do get is significantly more help than the others with respect to NIQ contracts.

One thing I have learnt over the years is dont trust southern journalist to talk objectively about Ulster rugby.

Central Contract always have a time lag - especially as some are 3 years.

Therefore you will always have some that should be ended - Leamy, Wallace x 2, Flannery

and others that are overdue

SOB, Earls

That is the nature of the beast

Sin é wrote:
As Kidney's lovechild, its weird that Earls doesn't have a central contract and Paddy Wallace (his real lovechild) and Trimble does.

Earls does have a central contract.

roddersm wrote:

profitius wrote:Theres only so much money to go around. If one team are getting it it means the IRFU will have less money to invest in other areas.

That is not a financial handicap because Munster and Leinster are no more entitled to the IRFU's money than Ulster are.

The IRFUs main job is to ensure a successful national side and are entitled to distribute their revenue were they see fit and were they will see the best return in terms of national success.

Leinster and Munster have had a lot of investment and continue to do so, the fact that a bigger chunk of the national teams revenue is required elsewhere right now does not make them financially handicapped.

Its as simple as this Rods, Murray, O'Mahoney, Earls & Ryan are players being payed by Munster who are contributing to the national team effort. Munster has to maintain a bigger squad to cover these players who are missing. earls has played 7 matches for Munster this year compared to danny barnes who has played 16 for Munster. Earls has played more games for Ireland this season than for Munster and Munster are not being compensated for his loss.

Meanwhile back up at the Ulster ranch, the IRFU are ponying up for Pienaar & Muller (among others) to swan around New zealand for the world cup.

You couldn't make it up, could you?

rodders, you are incredibly naive. It is very obvious if you read the press release is only says Munster and not Munster and Ireland. Clear evidence!

That comes directly from the highest power in Irish Rugby- whoever writes the press releases at Munster Rugby.

Sin é wrote:
You couldn't make it up, could you?

No you could though. How many times do you need to be told that Earls has a central contract as does Leamy. The article you posted explicitly says they have IRFU contracts.

Do you know who the IRFU are?

All the players mentioned have come through the Munster academy which is funded by the IRFU so Munster are certainly being more than 'compensated' for their contribution. Munster, like Ulster, are a branch of the IRFU, not a self sustaining club and without the IRFU you wouldn't have any of those players.

What planet are you on?

Sin, I suspect that some of those players will secure central contracts in time. Munster (and Ireland) are unlucky that two high-profile holders of central contracts are long-term injured. Flannery and Wallace, whilst Leamy and O'Leary are out of favour. Earls I would say almost definitely has a central contract. Yes, yes. We've all heard your 'airtight evidence'. No need to trot it out again.

The persecution complex is a tired act.

Notch wrote:rodders, you are incredibly naive. It is very obvious if you read the press release is only says Munster and not Munster and Ireland. Clear evidence!

That comes directly from the highest power in Irish Rugby- whoever writes the press releases at Munster Rugby.

from the highest power in Irish Rugby's website: http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/25564.php

Earls And Leamy Sign New Deals

The IRFU are happy to announce that it has secured the signatures of Ireland internationals Keith Earls and Denis Leamy. Their new contracts will see them remain with Munster for a further two years until 2014.

Keith Earls, who returned to training with the Ireland squad today, made his international debut against Canada in Thomond Park in 2008, scoring a try to mark the occasion.

Paul O'Connell announcement from IRFU website: http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/25280.php

O'Connell Signs New Contract

The Irish Rugby Football Union is pleased to announce that Paul O'Connell has signed a new Ireland international contract that will see him remain in Ireland to play his rugby with Munster for a further two seasons until 2014.

Just seen on another thread that Dan Parks is of to Connacht?? Please tell me thats not true?!

"The IRFU are happy to announce that it has secured the signatures of Ireland internationals Keith Earls and Denis Leamy"

It being IRFU SIN, not Munster. They have central IRFU contracts.

Consider my point well and truly missed!

One observation from a year ago:

Shane Logan publically stated that the total wage bill of the 3 Provinces, including all Central Contracts, was the same.

Notch wrote:Sin, I suspect that some of those players will secure central contracts in time. Munster (and Ireland) are unlucky that two high-profile holders of central contracts are long-term injured. Flannery and Wallace, whilst Leamy and O'Leary are out of favour. Earls I would say almost definitely has a central contract. Yes, yes. We've all heard your 'airtight evidence'. No need to trot it out again.

The persecution complex is a tired act.

Don't feel persecuted. Its just a bit tedious all this denial coming from Ulster.

as bJ said at the weekend, Munster encourage independence and self-reliance:

"Yeah, I know Anthony as our forwards coach so he deals with us much more often. As a player you like to be settled and have consistency and Munster create an environment where we look after ourselves on and off the field," said Botha of Foley, who has been seconded to the Ireland set-up for the Six Nations, with national forwards coach Gert Smal having treatment for an eye problem.

geoff998rugby wrote:One observation from a year ago:

Shane Logan publically stated that the total wage bill of the 3 Provinces, including all Central Contracts, was the same.

Thats the bloke that claimed the handling of McLoughlin's 'promotion' to Gary Longwell's assistant in the academy was not a PR disaster

roddersm wrote:"The IRFU are happy to announce that it has secured the signatures of Ireland internationals Keith Earls and Denis Leamy"

It being IRFU SIN, not Munster. They have central IRFU contracts.

All players that play for the provinces are contracted to the IRFU.

Unbelieveable Sin! You have the most amazing ability to take any comment out of context!

Munster are a branch of the IRFU and get treated as well, if not better than any of the other provinces. They have a massive influence within the IRFU, more so than Ulster do.

Get a grip of your self.

Denial of exactly what coming form Ulster Sin?

The longstanding pro-Ulster anti-Munster central contract conspiracy? What?

roddersm wrote: Unbelieveable Sin! You have the most amazing ability to take any comment out of context!

Munster are a branch of the IRFU and get treated as well, if not better than any of the other provinces. They have a massive influence within the IRFU, more so than Ulster do.

Get a grip of your self.

Give me an example of Munster getting better treatment than any other province?

Everything Munster have achieved over the years is inspite of the IRFU.

Notch wrote:Denial of exactly what coming form Ulster Sin?

The longstanding pro-Ulster anti-Munster central contract conspiracy? What?

Denial (despite Paul McNaughton saying it in a national newspaper) that Ulster are receiving more funding than the other 3 provinces.

I wouldn't be bothered about this really, except a poster way back said that Ulster 'should be getting more funding because of the tax rebate that the other provincial players get'.

My point all along is that Ulster have been getting extra funding and it is Ulster's choice to spend it on bringing in Southern Hemisphere players rather than compensate their own players for their loss of earnings in comparison to the rest of the ROI tax resident players.

Munster - Most Oppressed Province Ever.

FACT!

Sin é wrote:
Everything Munster have achieved over the years is inspite of the IRFU.

sin without the IRFU there would be no Munster!

Sin é wrote:
I wouldn't be bothered about this really, except a poster way back said that Ulster 'should be getting more funding because of the tax rebate that the other provincial players get'.

You've just invented that comment!

Don Alfonso wrote:Munster - Most Oppressed Province Ever.

FACT!

I think that the MOPE crown is Ulster's (they've being doing the talk, but they have yet to do the walk though).

I think this is just Sin's chance to have a nice dig at Ulster..

Get the fighting talk in now Sin, we will certainly walk the walk in about a month's time

Sin é wrote:My point all along is that Ulster have been getting extra funding and it is Ulster's choice to spend it on bringing in Southern Hemisphere players rather than compensate their own players for their loss of earnings in comparison to the rest of the ROI tax resident players.

Except that Don and I were actually talking about that a page ago.

And this loss of earnings thing, is that something you've invented in your head or what? Who's been saying the IRFU should compensate Ulster players for that?

Rory Sin's getting his excuses in early man, if Ulster win he'll claim they've been bankrolled by the IRFU whilst poor old Munster have been punching above their weight on shoestring budget .......

Sin é wrote:
I wouldn't be bothered about this really, except a poster way back said that Ulster 'should be getting more funding because of the tax rebate that the other provincial players get'.

Where? Or are you referring to the post where Munster fan Red Stag asked if Ulster should get more money to balance the lack of a tax rebate?

Why don't you show some of that marvellous independence and self-reliance that BJ is so in awe of and stop whining?

Poor old Munster. Most Oppressed Province Ever. But you'd never know - they're so stoic and uncomplaining.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:My point all along is that Ulster have been getting extra funding and it is Ulster's choice to spend it on bringing in Southern Hemisphere players rather than compensate their own players for their loss of earnings in comparison to the rest of the ROI tax resident players.

Except that Don and I were actually talking about that a page ago.

And this loss of earnings thing, is that something you've invented in your head or what? Who's been saying the IRFU should compensate Ulster players for that?

Ulster posters are always moaning that they can't compete with the rest of the provinces for the overflow talent because the ROI based players are reluctant to move to Ulster because of the tax thing.

Then you hear that players like Ferris needs to be paid more because he does not have the tax incentive thing to hold him in Ulster.

A shorter way of saying that is "loss of earnings".

Sin, I honestly haven't seen any posters say anything of the sort. Who has said any of that? Did you just make it up?

Don Alfonso wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I wouldn't be bothered about this really, except a poster way back said that Ulster 'should be getting more funding because of the tax rebate that the other provincial players get'.

Where? Or are you referring to the post where Munster fan Red Stag asked if Ulster should get more money to balance the lack of a tax rebate?

Why don't you show some of that marvellous independence and self-reliance that BJ is so in awe of and stop whining?

Poor old Munster. Most Oppressed Province Ever. But you'd never know - they're so stoic and uncomplaining.

Only reason Stag would know that is an issue is because Ulster posters keep banging on about it.

Munster are fine. We don't need a leg up from the IRFU.

Sin there are Tax incentives for players to sign for the southern provinces that don't exist in NI. That is just a fact.

Would you move North to earn the same wage if it meant losing out a 40% tax rebate?

All their provinces have their budgets to work with. From what I can see Ulster are doing an exceptional job with theirs.

Sin é wrote: My point all along is that Ulster have been getting extra funding and it is Ulster's choice to spend it on bringing in Southern Hemisphere players rather than compensate their own players for their loss of earnings in comparison to the rest of the ROI tax resident players.

You have not proven the extra funding argument- the McNaughton quote only talks about more money being put in - but relative to what ?
My contention is that the money put into Ulster did receive a boost, but that was relative to what had gone before not relative to Munster and Leinster - Shane Logan seems to agree with me.

As I have explained Ulster received less money, for understandable reasons, for years.

I simply do not accept that taking all elements into account Ulsters salary bill is any higher than Munster or Leinster.

How we use that money is to get the best squad possible - that seems to me to be simple common sense.

straw man 
noun
1. a mass of straw formed to resemble a man, as for a doll or scarecrow.
2. a person whose importance or function is only nominal, as to cover another's activities; front.
3. a fabricated or conveniently weak or innocuous person, object, matter, etc., used as a seeming adversary or argument: The issue she railed about was no more than a straw man.