The free-for-all "Cleverly at HW/Calzaghe would beat Wlad/Rocky Marciano was Rubbish/Mimsy" Thread

[Boxtthis]

First topic message reminder :

Just read this on boxing scene:

http://www.boxingscene.com/team-cleverly-nathan-wants-fight-heavyweight--55352

Clev's dad saying that he's filling out and wants to fight as a HW one day. Could be the lightest punching HW in history! I wonder if there's any nurses in the HW division?

C'mon Nathan, how about you fight someone decent at LHW first? His record as a title holder is becoming embarrassing.

In light of Gordy's chat I've changed the title of the thread so that it gives a more accurate representation of it's content!

[superflyweight]

Jones would not have lasted a round with Lennox Lewis or Mike Tyson. Calzaghe was a better fighter than Jones in every way and I would not give him a chance of beating Lewis or Tyson either. The current heavyweights are a different matter. I think Calzaghe would beat the ones around now. I cant see Jones doing that, he was knocked out by smaller fighters.

Jesus wept. If Gordy isn't a wum then you have to be concerned for his sanity.

[Rowley]

You might want to avoid the thread where he describes Carl Thompson as world class then superfly

[Gordy]

The point is that Calzaghe beat a decrepit 10 years past his best Jones, just as Berbick beat a decrepit 10 years past his best Ali. If Calzaghe had fought the Roy Jones of 1998 he would have got absolutely annihilated.

Ali was the greatest heavyweight in history. It is well known that by the end of his career he was suffering fom Parkinsons disease and struggling. There is no chance Berbick would have lasted more than a round or two with Ali when he was at his best. Jones does not have Parkinsons as far as I know. He slightly older and past his best when he fought Clazaghe but there ws not much difference in age. Calzaghe was a world class fighter not like Berbick who got exposed. If Calzaghe fought Jones at any other stage the outcome would be the same because he was simply a better fighter than Jones. Berbick was not a better fighter than Ali so its safe to assume had they fought when Ali was younger the result would be very different.

[88Chris05]

If you say so, Gordon. The fact is that, for about a decade between 1994 and 2004, Jones scaled heights which Calzaghe couldn't have seen with a telescope.

Calzaghe an excellent fighter, Jones a truly outstanding and exceptional one. I've no doubts that Calzaghe would have seen the final bell but he'd have lost a wide decision just about every single time.

[bellchees]

I wouldn't be shocked to see Calzaghe in his prime give a guy like Povetkin a lot of trouble but a Klitschko fight would be a massacre. Wlad has a jab that genuinely hurts guys 3 or 4 stone heavier than Calzaghe, any form of meaningful contact and its lights out.

[azania]

The point is that Calzaghe beat a decrepit 10 years past his best Jones, just as Berbick beat a decrepit 10 years past his best Ali. If Calzaghe had fought the Roy Jones of 1998 he would have got absolutely annihilated.

Ali was the greatest heavyweight in history. It is well known that by the end of his career he was suffering fom Parkinsons disease and struggling. There is no chance Berbick would have lasted more than a round or two with Ali when he was at his best. Jones does not have Parkinsons as far as I know. He slightly older and past his best when he fought Clazaghe but there ws not much difference in age. Calzaghe was a world class fighter not like Berbick who got exposed. If Calzaghe fought Jones at any other stage the outcome would be the same because he was simply a better fighter than Jones. Berbick was not a better fighter than Ali so its safe to assume had they fought when Ali was younger the result would be very different.

Hopkins is still going strong at 102. Many boxers are finished at 32. Age is irrelevant. If you think RJJ was close to his peak when he fought Joe, then you are even less knowledgable than I gave you credit for.

RJJ was P4P #1 for nearly a decadew. Joe was never a legit world champ in the SMW division let alone P4P top 10.

[JabMachineMK2]

The point is that Calzaghe beat a decrepit 10 years past his best Jones, just as Berbick beat a decrepit 10 years past his best Ali. If Calzaghe had fought the Roy Jones of 1998 he would have got absolutely annihilated.

Don't think he would have been annihilated. If Calzaghe 2007 met RJJ 1998 it would have been one sided but I don't think annihilated is fair to Joe.

If Calzaghe fought Jones at any other stage the outcome would be the same because he was simply a better fighter than Jones.

Rubbish

[azania]

Ali didn't have Parkinson's when he lost to Spinks. He must have bottled the rubber match because Spinks had his number. After all he was only 34 and Wlad is still ruling the roost at 35 with Vitali the #2 (and P4P top 10) at 40.

[TopHat24/7]

Whether it's repeated or not Jones Jnr took on the very worst champion in Ruiz and wanted no part of Lennox Lewis whatsoever. When Jones Jnr was quizzed about who he might have fought had he stayed up at the weight he said Mike Tyson ffs!

Jones would not have lasted a round with Lennox Lewis or Mike Tyson. Calzaghe was a better fighter than Jones in every way and I would not give him a chance of beating Lewis or Tyson either. The current heavyweights are a different matter. I think Calzaghe would beat the ones around now. I cant see Jones doing that, he was knocked out by smaller fighters.

Oh my Lordy, Gordy, you have now cemented your lifetime place in the 606/606v2 WUM HOF.

[TopHat24/7]

Ali didn't have Parkinson's when he lost to Spinks. He must have bottled the rubber match because Spinks had his number. After all he was only 34 and Wlad is still ruling the roost at 35 with Vitali the #2 (and P4P top 10) at 40.

That sounds worryingly like a Spring post......lol

[Imperial Ghosty]

This is either Towzer or Waingro.

Wlad isn't a great heavyweight but he is none the less a good one whom i'd give Jones a chance of beating but not Calzaghe, he was just a bit too easy to hit at times and against a far bigger guy it's not going to last long.

The Spinks and Holmes fights lead me to think that Jones has a good chance, they are both unconventional and very unpredictable with world class speed. Spinks was a great light heavyweight who overcame a great heavyweight with a world class jab so see no reason why Jones couldn't beat a lesser fighter with a lesser jab and variety.

[azania]

Difference is that Holmes was old and slower. Plus he won both fights anyway. But for those judges.........

[Imperial Ghosty]

He was 35 just like Wlad is now and past his best was still a better fighter than Wlad at his absolute best.

[azania]

At their peaks, Holmes would sway Wlad away like a fly. But a 35 year old Wlad would have beaten a 35 year old Holmes.

[88Chris05]

Can't see Jones beating any version of Wladimir, to be honest. At least any version of Wladimir that we've seen up until this point, anyway. Spinks a touch bigger than Jones, Holmes a fair bit smaller than Wlad, and had definitely seen better days by the time Spinks got to him. Great, great win and achievement for Michael, but I'm not so sure he could have done that against the Holmes of a few years previously.

I think the two fights with Holmes, where Spinks essentially just accumulated points through jabbing and moving, underline where Jones may just struggle against Wlad. It wasn't really in Jones' nature to retreat and accumulate like that, and he didn't really have a great jab in any case (although he seldom needed it in order to dominate). Jones would have to get in close to Wladimir to win - not sure his chin would survive if he got caught on his way in.

I think syles-wise, Holmes was a better match up for Spinks than Wladimir is for Jones, not to mention that Larry had lost some of his edge by 1985, too. Jones would have beaten a few Heavyweight titlists, but not a neat-boxing, hard-hitting and genuine 'Super-Heavyweight' one such as Wladimir. Too small, I fear.

[TheMackemMawler]

no middleweight in history would beat Wlad

[John Bloody Wayne]

Just floating Ezzard's name again. At his best far better than anybody Wlad's faced...

[88Chris05]

I think, realistically, you'd have to make Wladimir the favourite against Ezz, if we're talking about Wladimir at his best here. Not a slight against Ezzard at all, who was an excellent Middleweight, an otherworldly Light-Heavyweight, and a good Heavyweight in an era where most men in that division were still often under 200 lb. However I don't see where he fits in a world where Heavyweights of, say, 6'3" and 215 lb are considered average in size.

I don't think Charles even faced anyone remotely close to Wladimir's size, and if he did then they certainly didn't have the same skill level and conditioning that Wladimir boasts, not to mention punching power, too. If Charles is getting knocked out by Walcott then he's a good bet to be taking a few counts against Wlad, too.

I appreciate that Charles didn't pick the era he boxed in, but there's very little to suggest that he could replicate his feats as a Heavyweight in the fifties against the behomoths that we often see dominating the division now.

As I said, though, this isn't a slight on Charles at all - the man was a career Middle and / or Light-Heavyweight. He may have made an effective Cruiserweight, too, but he's not going to be a Heavyweight champion ahead of either of the Klitschkos.

[azania]

The HW version of Charles wouldn't be able to land on Wlad. I'd put him on par with Adamek.

[Imperial Ghosty]

My main issue with people backing Wlad to beat Jones and Charles is largely down to size, it appears it's the only thing he has going for him, he wins because he's bigger, sod that he loses because they are regardless of size in a different stratosphere to him like an ageing Holmes was. Bigger or not Wlad wouldn't have a hope in hell of beating a fighter like Holmes who he couldn't hurt or outjab.

[azania]

A 35 year old Holmes would have lost to Wlad.

[88Chris05]

I really don't understand why stating that fighter A would beat fighter B due to them being so much bigger is (seemingly) always interpreted as an insult to fighter B, in this case Charles. Boxing has weight divisions for a reason. Is a slight against Benny Leonard to suggest he'd have lost to Nigel Benn?

Suggesting that Charles loses to Wladimir really isn't controversial, and nor is it a suggestion which requires a great deal of justification. He never fought anyone anywhere near as big as Wlad. Heavyweights who campaigned in the division at the same time as him often weighed between 190 and 200 lb, and seldom over 210 lb.

It seems that when fighters of the WWII or before eras are discussed, the issue of size becomes irrelevant somehow. Yes, Charles was more talented. Yes, he achieved more. Yes, he'd win if they were magically morphed in to the same size as each other. But they're not. Charles was incredible at 160 lb and even better at 175 lb, it's hardly an insult to him to suggest that a quality, accomplished 245 lb Heavyweight would be too much for him, is it?

[Imperial Ghosty]

A quality big man like Bowe, Holmes or Lewis yes but a merely good one isn't good enough to beat him in my opinion.

[manos de piedra]

The HW version of Charles wouldn't be able to land on Wlad. I'd put him on par with Adamek.

A heavyweight Charles wasnt even all that great as heavyweights go. Patchy even in his own era. I would give him virtually no chance against Wlad or a similarly acomplished heavyweight of that size. Id rate him well ahead of Adamek though.

[John Bloody Wayne]

I think, realistically, you'd have to make Wladimir the favourite against Ezz, if we're talking about Wladimir at his best here. Not a slight against Ezzard at all, who was an excellent Middleweight, an otherworldly Light-Heavyweight, and a good Heavyweight in an era where most men in that division were still often under 200 lb. However I don't see where he fits in a world where Heavyweights of, say, 6'3" and 215 lb are considered average in size.

I don't think Charles even faced anyone remotely close to Wladimir's size, and if he did then they certainly didn't have the same skill level and conditioning that Wladimir boasts, not to mention punching power, too. If Charles is getting knocked out by Walcott then he's a good bet to be taking a few counts against Wlad, too.

I appreciate that Charles didn't pick the era he boxed in, but there's very little to suggest that he could replicate his feats as a Heavyweight in the fifties against the behomoths that we often see dominating the division now.

As I said, though, this isn't a slight on Charles at all - the man was a career Middle and / or Light-Heavyweight. He may have made an effective Cruiserweight, too, but he's not going to be a Heavyweight champion ahead of either of the Klitschkos.

I can tell you rate Charles highly and I agree it's no slight to say he loses to either Klistchko. However I do think you're being kind to Wlad here. He's a champion of great longevity, but he gets massive credit from not beating any decent opponents apart from maybe Haye. Before Haye, Byrd was seen as his greatest win by many. Byrd! A former middleweight.

Charles never faced a man of 6'6 and 240 pounds, but Wlad never faced a boxer with Charles' footwork, handspeed, ring generalship, accuracy etc.

As for the Walcott defeat, well Walcott was a pretty top operator himself, and the punch he used is one I've never seen Wlad attempt. Also, by the time of the Walcott defeat Charles was coming to the end of a long and impressive string of results. Charles' victories over Walcott are actually better than any of Wlad's wins at heavy. If Walcott had the training ethic of most of Wlad's opponents I've no doubt hed be in the 220lb range.

Although I still think Wlad could beat Charles.

[ShahenshahG]

To beat Wlad you've got to get inside and that's where anyone naturally south of 200ish pounds gets totaled with a Jab/hook right cross combo including many legends of the past and certainly any middle or light Heavy. Calzaghes spine would come out of his arse if Wlad leant on him for starters. Wlad isnt a great heavy but hes better than just good despite the poor opposition. Who is there in the lower divisions who can punch sufficiently at heavy to hurt him? Wlad isnt Lewis but he isnt carnera either.

[Guest]

This is his own statement on the issue made just after he retired which I found there:

"I see the guys fighting now and I know I could beat them all," he declared. "That’s always the case.

"I’m Joe Calzaghe, I could beat anyone. I could step up and beat Wladimir Klitschko if I wanted."

That is the same boxer who beat Haye. He would of course be bigger than Calzaghe but Calzaghe is is far quicker and much more skillful a boxer. Without the hard dieting he had to do to make weight and with some additional muscle he would have too much talent for the heavyweights around today. Haye did not start out as heavyeight either but he put on weight and grew into the division. Calzaghe is miles better than Haye and could have done the same a few years ago.

Man, are you thick or are you just Waingro? This must be the must retarded piece of illogic i've ever read.



emancipator

[Rowley]

Wlad isnt Lewis but he isnt carnera either.

Am a reasonable man Shah, but don't diss Da Preem

[Mind the windows Tino.]

Primo got knocked out by a half starved POW who had never had a fight.

[88Chris05]

Primo got knocked out by a half starved POW who had never had a fight.

Not fair, the sand was clearly in Primo's eyes as Masaki struck that final blow.

You finished 'All Hell Let Loose' yet by the way, Tino?

[Mind the windows Tino.]

Primo got knocked out by a half starved POW who had never had a fight.

Not fair, the sand was clearly in Primo's eyes as Masaki struck that final blow.

You finished 'All Hell Let Loose' yet by the way, Tino?

I hope so, Chris, he needs some excuse for it (although I do have a big place in my heart for Primo) as it's a shocker.

Not quite mate, but the Red Army is banging on the door or Berlin. Maybe a 100 pages left. You enjoying it?

[88Chris05]

I am mate, top book isn't it? About two thirds of the way through at the moment, up to Mussolini's arrest and subsequent rescue.

[Mind the windows Tino.]

I am mate, top book isn't it? About two thirds of the way through at the moment, up to Mussolini's arrest and subsequent rescue.

Great book and great writer. You're flying through it then. I still wish he had elaborated on the Masaki - Carnera fight but in the scheme of WWII it was pretty insignificant.

Great story for boxing geeks though.

[Mind the windows Tino.]

I am mate, top book isn't it? About two thirds of the way through at the moment, up to Mussolini's arrest and subsequent rescue.

Funny how at school and university you're always taught about the build up to WWII but never the war itself. I've got a degree in history and even I was never taught about the war

Have you read 'All Hell Let Loose' then, alma? As fine a single volume account of the war as you are likely to find. Chris, myself and superfly have been churning through it and it is brilliant.

[Rowley]

Have just started Richard Evans trilogy on the Third reich, hard bleeding work, everyone is massive and seriously academic, they are fascinating but make my head hurt.

[Mind the windows Tino.]

Thought you only read boxing books?

[Rowley]

You have to mix things up a bit Tina, one does not maintain an intellect of the breadth of mine by limiting yourself to one subject.

[Mind the windows Tino.]

Says a man over the age of 12 who still uses the word 'diss'.

[Rowley]

I try to play to my audience Tina, will start talking about hip hop soon.

[88Chris05]

It seems there's a pattern emerging; every bloke reads a book about Nazi Germany or their subsequent military campaigns, while their significant others (and seemingly just about every single woman in the British Isles) reads, and talks about loudly in public, 'Fifty shades of frigging Grey'.

[superflyweight]

Christ, Chris, you've overtaken me. I'm still fannying about reading the North Africa stuff. The little un has taken to starting her day at 4am so I'm having to go to bed about 9 and not having much time to read.

Great book though.

[Rowley]

It seems there's a pattern emerging; every bloke reads a book about Nazi Germany or their subsequent military campaigns, while their significant others (and seemingly just about every single woman in the British Isles) reads, and talks about loudly in public, 'Fifty shades of frigging Grey'.

Every woman apart from TSMR I am pleased to say, might give her ideas and I am not a young man.

[seanmichaels]

I find it fascinating. Anyone read the book that band of brothers is about?

[Mind the windows Tino.]

It seems there's a pattern emerging; every bloke reads a book about Nazi Germany or their subsequent military campaigns, while their significant others (and seemingly just about every single woman in the British Isles) reads, and talks about loudly in public, 'Fifty shades of frigging Grey'.

Mrs Windows has been reading them. It baffles me. She is a really bright, fiercely independent women who, pre-kiddies, held down a pretty good job in a cut throat industry. She now giggles like a teenager whilst reading a book with the prose of a 3 year old.

[superflyweight]

Mrs Superfly has been reading the books and I'm told that there's a point at which the main character gets whipped in the mimsy.

That's not a book for me.

[Mind the windows Tino.]

whipped in the mimsy.

Please don't ever use that phrase again.

[88Chris05]

You've hit the nail on the head there, Superfly - can read pretty much whenever I want so have flown through it. It's a real eye-opener though, isn't it? Some of the first-hand accounts, letters sent to loved ones etc that Hastings uses make it difficult reading in one regard, particularly in relation to the Burma campaign and the Japan-China conflict, although I'll say no more as I don't want to ruin it for you!

[TopHat24/7]

whipped in the mimsy.

Please don't ever use that phrase again.

[Rowley]

I find it fascinating. Anyone read the book that band of brothers is about?

I have Sean

[superflyweight]

I believe it was with a riding crop, tina. I originally had visions of an Indiana Jones style bull whip. Certainly not a move one can pull out on on a first date.

Chris, it's the personal touches in the book which make it for me. Not long finished the chapter setting out the struggles of certain groups of women during the war - fairly harrowing stuff.

[Sponsored content]