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The free-for-all "Cleverly at HW/Calzaghe would beat Wlad/Rocky Marciano was Rubbish/Mimsy" Thread

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The free-for-all "Cleverly at HW/Calzaghe would beat Wlad/Rocky Marciano was Rubbish/Mimsy" Thread - Page 9 Empty The free-for-all "Cleverly at HW/Calzaghe would beat Wlad/Rocky Marciano was Rubbish/Mimsy" Thread

Post by Boxtthis Wed 25 Jul 2012, 1:26 pm

First topic message reminder :

Just read this on boxing scene:

http://www.boxingscene.com/team-cleverly-nathan-wants-fight-heavyweight--55352

Clev's dad saying that he's filling out and wants to fight as a HW one day. Could be the lightest punching HW in history! I wonder if there's any nurses in the HW division?

C'mon Nathan, how about you fight someone decent at LHW first? His record as a title holder is becoming embarrassing.

In light of Gordy's chat I've changed the title of the thread so that it gives a more accurate representation of it's content!


Last edited by Boxtthis on Fri 27 Jul 2012, 5:01 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Wed 01 Aug 2012, 12:58 pm

Rodney wrote:

That might rank up there with Jamie Moore beating Ray Robinson.

Cheers

Rodders.

Or my own personal Az favourite....

Hide to beat Jeffries inside 6 minutes.

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by superflyweight Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:00 pm

Certainly Frazier - as Chris says at least a 50:50. I'd also agree that Holyfield would be an interesting match up.

Can't rule out Marciano beating Liston either. I'd give the edge to Liston but it would have been interestign to see him against someone who wouldn't have been scared of him and who could really dig.

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Post by azania Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:07 pm

1. Ali - Ali LKO
2. Liston. - EKO
3 Tyson - Round 1 KO
4. Lewis - EKO
5. Wlad - Wide UD 11 out of 10 times
6. Vitali - See Wlad
7. Foreman - R 2 KO
8. Frazier - R3 KO
9. Louis - live version - R6 KO
10. Holyfield - R5 KO

Rocky may have a good chin, but he never felt power like these guys possessed. Lets not forget he got decked by a LHW and nearly stopped. Ref gave him extra time to recover.

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Post by paperbag_puncher Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:08 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
Rodney wrote:

That might rank up there with Jamie Moore beating Ray Robinson.

Cheers

Rodders.

Or my own personal Az favourite....

Hide to beat Jeffries inside 6 minutes.

Hate to say it but I occasionly post on another forum where some make Az look like Windy. My personal favourite was Mike Perez blasts Liston out in a round. Although I suppose Liston never won Prizefighter.

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Post by bhb001 Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:12 pm

TheMackemMawler wrote:Im bored of this now. I have changed my position. Sportsmen progress, so much so that who beats who can't tell us much.

Mark "The Shark" Spitz is not only one of the greatest swimmers of all, he is one of the greatest Olympians to have walked the planet. During the 1972 Olympics he smashed the 100m freestyle world record in 51seconds.

Stefan Nystrand is the guy that came last in the 2008 Olympic final. He demolished Spitz' record (in a time of 48 sec).

Every guy in that final would have anhilated Spitz. No one would argue Stefan Nystrand (who?) is a greater swimmer than the Spitz. Remember, Spitz is the man who, in '72, won seven olympic gold medals by breaking 7 world records. He was a Phenom.

Bowe would beat Marciano. So what. Proves nothing. Case shut?

Perfectly well reasoned in my eyes. So, yes, case shut.

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Post by superflyweight Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:13 pm

1. Ali - Ali LKO
2. Liston. - EKO
3 Tyson - Round 1 KO
4. Lewis - EKO
5. Wlad - Wide UD 11 out of 10 times
6. Vitali - See Wlad
7. Foreman - R 2 KO
8. Frazier - R3 KO
9. Louis - live version - R6 KO
10. Holyfield - R5 KO

Any coincidence that the only ones not to knock out "the darling of White America" are not black, Az?

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Post by Imperial Ghosty Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:15 pm

He wasnt almost stopped by Moore at all, he was up and ready to fight at the count of 4, might as well say Frazier almost stopped Ali.

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:17 pm

bhb001 wrote:
TheMackemMawler wrote:Im bored of this now. I have changed my position. Sportsmen progress, so much so that who beats who can't tell us much.

Mark "The Shark" Spitz is not only one of the greatest swimmers of all, he is one of the greatest Olympians to have walked the planet. During the 1972 Olympics he smashed the 100m freestyle world record in 51seconds.

Stefan Nystrand is the guy that came last in the 2008 Olympic final. He demolished Spitz' record (in a time of 48 sec).

Every guy in that final would have anhilated Spitz. No one would argue Stefan Nystrand (who?) is a greater swimmer than the Spitz. Remember, Spitz is the man who, in '72, won seven olympic gold medals by breaking 7 world records. He was a Phenom.

Bowe would beat Marciano. So what. Proves nothing. Case shut?

Perfectly well reasoned in my eyes. So, yes, case shut.

Not with Az around.......

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Post by Boxtthis Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:17 pm

azania wrote:I like the way people focussed on Audley as I threw you guys a bone and you snapped. So predictable.

Yes Az, you're a master manipulator. You're Machiavellian stratagems have made fools of us all. Or maybe you made another stupidly exaggerated statement and respondents rightfully pulled you up on it.

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:18 pm

superflyweight wrote:
1. Ali - Ali LKO
2. Liston. - EKO
3 Tyson - Round 1 KO
4. Lewis - EKO
5. Wlad - Wide UD 11 out of 10 times
6. Vitali - See Wlad
7. Foreman - R 2 KO
8. Frazier - R3 KO
9. Louis - live version - R6 KO
10. Holyfield - R5 KO

Any coincidence that the only ones not to knock out "the darling of White America" are not black, Az?

The free-for-all "Cleverly at HW/Calzaghe would beat Wlad/Rocky Marciano was Rubbish/Mimsy" Thread - Page 9 1347041234

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:19 pm

Boxtthis wrote:
azania wrote:I like the way people focussed on Audley as I threw you guys a bone and you snapped. So predictable.

Yes Az, you're a master manipulator. You're Machiavellian stratagems have made fools of us all. Or maybe you made another stupidly exaggerated statement and respondents rightfully pulled you up on it.
laughing

Laugh Laugh Laugh picard

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Post by azania Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:21 pm

TheMackemMawler wrote:Im bored of this now. I have changed my position. Sportsmen progress, so much so that who beats who can't tell us much.

Mark "The Shark" Spitz is not only one of the greatest swimmers of all, he is one of the greatest Olympians to have walked the planet. During the 1972 Olympics he smashed the 100m freestyle world record in 51seconds.

Stefan Nystrand is the guy that came last in the 2008 Olympic final. He demolished Spitz' record (in a time of 48 sec).

Every guy in that final would have anhilated Spitz. No one would argue Stefan Nystrand (who?) is a greater swimmer than the Spitz. Remember, Spitz is the man who, in '72, won seven olympic gold medals by breaking 7 world records. He was a Phenom.

Bowe would beat Marciano. So what. Proves nothing. Case shut?

Excellent point MM. I recall when the Rocky/old timers issue first raised its head I said that humans were stronger and faster than yesteryear and had better diets and training methods. I was ridiculed and laughed at. Some of those who laughed at me are now agreeing with you. Interesting.

Undoubtably Spitz is one of the greatest swimmers of all time. 2nd on any list after Phelps. Based on achievement that is. But as time has gone by, he is not the best swimmer by a long shot. Time has moved on. Better technology and coaching etc has made sure of that.

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Post by Rowley Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:23 pm

The problem with this head to head thing if we are going to do it prime for prime you then have to start chucking in guys like Buster Douglas who at his best may well do better against many of the top ten than the Rock but in no way shape or form deserves to be ranked above him. Otherwise we have to consider things in the whole. Lennox has to be the sensible pick over Rock but if he turns up as unfocussed and out of shape as he did against Rahman the opposite result is eminently possible.

That is why sensible posters and fans look at things in the whole to say Lewis beats the Rock is a sensible prediction but it does not mean there were not instances where the Rock could and maybe would have won as "on his best night" rarely if ever tells the story of a fighters career which are prone to off nights and peaks and troughs.

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Post by azania Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:24 pm

superflyweight wrote:
1. Ali - Ali LKO
2. Liston. - EKO
3 Tyson - Round 1 KO
4. Lewis - EKO
5. Wlad - Wide UD 11 out of 10 times
6. Vitali - See Wlad
7. Foreman - R 2 KO
8. Frazier - R3 KO
9. Louis - live version - R6 KO
10. Holyfield - R5 KO

Any coincidence that the only ones not to knock out "the darling of White America" are not black, Az?

Whistle

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Post by azania Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:25 pm

Imperial Ghosty wrote:He wasnt almost stopped by Moore at all, he was up and ready to fight at the count of 4, might as well say Frazier almost stopped Ali.

Strange that Walcott never forgave the ref dont you think?

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Post by azania Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:26 pm

Boxtthis wrote:
azania wrote:I like the way people focussed on Audley as I threw you guys a bone and you snapped. So predictable.

Yes Az, you're a master manipulator. You're Machiavellian stratagems have made fools of us all. Or maybe you made another stupidly exaggerated statement and respondents rightfully pulled you up on it.

Can't be helped that many are so predictable. Always looking for the easy target. Just like pack hunters.

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Post by azania Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:28 pm

rowley wrote:The problem with this head to head thing if we are going to do it prime for prime you then have to start chucking in guys like Buster Douglas who at his best may well do better against many of the top ten than the Rock but in no way shape or form deserves to be ranked above him. Otherwise we have to consider things in the whole. Lennox has to be the sensible pick over Rock but if he turns up as unfocussed and out of shape as he did against Rahman the opposite result is eminently possible.

That is why sensible posters and fans look at things in the whole to say Lewis beats the Rock is a sensible prediction but it does not mean there were not instances where the Rock could and maybe would have won as "on his best night" rarely if ever tells the story of a fighters career which are prone to off nights and peaks and troughs.

Lennox can turn up half drunk and he'd still beat Rocky. This is a very slow fighter with short stumpy arms against a giant who is faster and more athletic than he is. Rocky would not get close. He may punch Lennox a few times in the knackers and get DQ.

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Post by Boxtthis Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:34 pm

azania wrote:
TheMackemMawler wrote:Im bored of this now. I have changed my position. Sportsmen progress, so much so that who beats who can't tell us much.

Mark "The Shark" Spitz is not only one of the greatest swimmers of all, he is one of the greatest Olympians to have walked the planet. During the 1972 Olympics he smashed the 100m freestyle world record in 51seconds.

Stefan Nystrand is the guy that came last in the 2008 Olympic final. He demolished Spitz' record (in a time of 48 sec).

Every guy in that final would have anhilated Spitz. No one would argue Stefan Nystrand (who?) is a greater swimmer than the Spitz. Remember, Spitz is the man who, in '72, won seven olympic gold medals by breaking 7 world records. He was a Phenom.

Bowe would beat Marciano. So what. Proves nothing. Case shut?

Excellent point MM. I recall when the Rocky/old timers issue first raised its head I said that humans were stronger and faster than yesteryear and had better diets and training methods. I was ridiculed and laughed at. Some of those who laughed at me are now agreeing with you. Interesting.

Undoubtably Spitz is one of the greatest swimmers of all time. 2nd on any list after Phelps. Based on achievement that is. But as time has gone by, he is not the best swimmer by a long shot. Time has moved on. Better technology and coaching etc has made sure of that.

Now, this is an interesting point to make because boxing, to me, seems to be a bit of an anomaly when it comes to this rule. Sports like swimming, cycling, sprinting, etc, etc have undeniably moved on with every era that passes. But, boxing seems to be one of the few sports where there seems to have been a peak which is now declining in the modern era. I absolutely agree that most pre-war old timers would stand little chance with the athletes of today. And I agree, to an extent, with the application of that stance to Rocky Marciano. But, who amongst us doesn't have Ali as top 1 or 2 HW? The 60's, 70's, and 80's are regarded to all have far better eras than now. That holds in both an 'achievement in your own era' and 'a head-to-head across era' sense.

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Post by 88Chris05 Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:36 pm

It's interesting that you pick Frazier to do away with Marciano so routinely, Az.

I'd say that there are a lot of comparisons to be drawn between Joe and Rocky, in more ways than one; both sluggish starts, both blessed with superb endurance and powers of recovery, both reliant on crouching attacks to navigate the reach advantages that their opponents almost always had. Frazier a touch faster, Marciano hitting a shade harder, and on top of that their respective rankings in Heavyweight history are pretty equal, too.

I don't see any evidence to suggest that a fight between the two, likewise, would be anything other than a closely contested affair. Both were vulnerable early doors, but even then Marciano was never in a total panic stations moment in the opening rounds the way Frazier was against Bonavena. I believe that Rocky carried the slightly heavier punch, so while I wouldn't predict an early stoppage either way, I'd also suggest that if there is one, it'd be Frazier rather than Marciano who'd be on the wrong end of it.

Marciano was more cumbersome than Frazier, so I'd expect Joe to win most of the middle rounds, but in his final two or three fights you can really see how much Marciano's defence had improved; he got caught coming in a lot less than he'd previously done, had better balance etc. Frazier never really improved his defence at all, however, and if Marciano comes in to the ring the fitter and more conditioned man - which is very possible - then Frazier's got one hell of a torrent to withstand in the closing stages.

I honestly think there's very little between them, if anything at all. I imagine if they fought often enough there'd be stoppages now and then, but for the most part I'd see a series of decisions - unanimous, split and majority - shared out more or less equally between them.
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Post by Boxtthis Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:38 pm

azania wrote:
Boxtthis wrote:
azania wrote:I like the way people focussed on Audley as I threw you guys a bone and you snapped. So predictable.

Yes Az, you're a master manipulator. You're Machiavellian stratagems have made fools of us all. Or maybe you made another stupidly exaggerated statement and respondents rightfully pulled you up on it.

Can't be helped that many are so predictable. Always looking for the easy target. Just like pack hunters.

If you say silly things on a discussion forum then people are likely to pull you up on it. You made yourself an easy target by saying something silly. No one colludes in 'packs' against you. You say silly things and a bunch of people, responding on an individual basis, address your statements. This gives you the 'me against the world' situation that you seem to love.

In fact, why am I encouraging this?

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Post by Rowley Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:39 pm

Boxtthis wrote: But, who amongst us doesn't have Ali as top 1 or 2 HW?

And oddly enough most everyone has Sugar Ray Robinson who made his debut in the 30s as the best ever, apart from those who think Jamie Moore would beat him of course.

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Post by Lumbering_Jack Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:40 pm

azania wrote:
TheMackemMawler wrote:Im bored of this now. I have changed my position. Sportsmen progress, so much so that who beats who can't tell us much.

Mark "The Shark" Spitz is not only one of the greatest swimmers of all, he is one of the greatest Olympians to have walked the planet. During the 1972 Olympics he smashed the 100m freestyle world record in 51seconds.

Stefan Nystrand is the guy that came last in the 2008 Olympic final. He demolished Spitz' record (in a time of 48 sec).

Every guy in that final would have anhilated Spitz. No one would argue Stefan Nystrand (who?) is a greater swimmer than the Spitz. Remember, Spitz is the man who, in '72, won seven olympic gold medals by breaking 7 world records. He was a Phenom.

Bowe would beat Marciano. So what. Proves nothing. Case shut?

Excellent point MM. I recall when the Rocky/old timers issue first raised its head I said that humans were stronger and faster than yesteryear and had better diets and training methods. I was ridiculed and laughed at. Some of those who laughed at me are now agreeing with you. Interesting.

Undoubtably Spitz is one of the greatest swimmers of all time. 2nd on any list after Phelps. Based on achievement that is. But as time has gone by, he is not the best swimmer by a long shot. Time has moved on. Better technology and coaching etc has made sure of that.

Senna is a rubbish driver and Newton is as thick as 2 shorts planks in that case.

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:41 pm

Boxtthis wrote:
azania wrote:
Boxtthis wrote:
azania wrote:I like the way people focussed on Audley as I threw you guys a bone and you snapped. So predictable.

Yes Az, you're a master manipulator. You're Machiavellian stratagems have made fools of us all. Or maybe you made another stupidly exaggerated statement and respondents rightfully pulled you up on it.

Can't be helped that many are so predictable. Always looking for the easy target. Just like pack hunters.

If you say silly things on a discussion forum then people are likely to pull you up on it. You made yourself an easy target by saying something silly. No one colludes in 'packs' against you. You say silly things and a bunch of people, responding on an individual basis, address your statements. This gives you the 'me against the world' situation that you seem to love.

In fact, why am I encouraging this?

Pretty much sums it up!

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Post by Lumbering_Jack Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:42 pm

azania wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:He wasnt almost stopped by Moore at all, he was up and ready to fight at the count of 4, might as well say Frazier almost stopped Ali.

Strange that Walcott never forgave the ref dont you think?

Just like Hatton still hates Cortez.

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Post by bhb001 Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:49 pm

azania wrote:Lennox can turn up half drunk and he'd still beat Rocky. This is a very slow fighter with short stumpy arms against a giant who is faster and more athletic than he is. Rocky would not get close. He may punch Lennox a few times in the knackers and get DQ.

Just like he did to Rahman and Mccall first time around. Oh wait, he got caught because he under rated his opponents, not once but twice. Any sort of chance like that would have been exploited by Marciano.

Archie Moore said the one mistake he made when fighting Marciano was knocking him down in the first round, because it "just made him mad!".

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Post by bhb001 Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:51 pm

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Senna is a rubbish driver and Newton is as thick as 2 shorts planks in that case.

The truth will out!!

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Post by azania Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:53 pm

Lumbering_Jack wrote:
azania wrote:
TheMackemMawler wrote:Im bored of this now. I have changed my position. Sportsmen progress, so much so that who beats who can't tell us much.

Mark "The Shark" Spitz is not only one of the greatest swimmers of all, he is one of the greatest Olympians to have walked the planet. During the 1972 Olympics he smashed the 100m freestyle world record in 51seconds.

Stefan Nystrand is the guy that came last in the 2008 Olympic final. He demolished Spitz' record (in a time of 48 sec).

Every guy in that final would have anhilated Spitz. No one would argue Stefan Nystrand (who?) is a greater swimmer than the Spitz. Remember, Spitz is the man who, in '72, won seven olympic gold medals by breaking 7 world records. He was a Phenom.

Bowe would beat Marciano. So what. Proves nothing. Case shut?

Excellent point MM. I recall when the Rocky/old timers issue first raised its head I said that humans were stronger and faster than yesteryear and had better diets and training methods. I was ridiculed and laughed at. Some of those who laughed at me are now agreeing with you. Interesting.

Undoubtably Spitz is one of the greatest swimmers of all time. 2nd on any list after Phelps. Based on achievement that is. But as time has gone by, he is not the best swimmer by a long shot. Time has moved on. Better technology and coaching etc has made sure of that.

Senna is a rubbish driver and Newton is as thick as 2 shorts planks in that case.

Point missed. Newton was a great scientist. Doesn't make him a lesser scientist because many A level students know more than he does. Ditto Rocky. Great boxer but better boxers came after and better fought before. Right place at the right time.

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Post by azania Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:55 pm

bhb001 wrote:
azania wrote:Lennox can turn up half drunk and he'd still beat Rocky. This is a very slow fighter with short stumpy arms against a giant who is faster and more athletic than he is. Rocky would not get close. He may punch Lennox a few times in the knackers and get DQ.

Just like he did to Rahman and Mccall first time around. Oh wait, he got caught because he under rated his opponents, not once but twice. Any sort of chance like that would have been exploited by Marciano.

Archie Moore said the one mistake he made when fighting Marciano was knocking him down in the first round, because it "just made him mad!".

Nah. I am not a Lewis fan boy who makes excuses for those defeats. He got caught and was stopped. No excuses. Once you step into the ring, you're prepared. Nothing lucky about those punches also. Aimed and landed.

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Post by azania Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:57 pm

bhb001 wrote:
azania wrote:Lennox can turn up half drunk and he'd still beat Rocky. This is a very slow fighter with short stumpy arms against a giant who is faster and more athletic than he is. Rocky would not get close. He may punch Lennox a few times in the knackers and get DQ.

Just like he did to Rahman and Mccall first time around. Oh wait, he got caught because he under rated his opponents, not once but twice. Any sort of chance like that would have been exploited by Marciano.

Archie Moore said the one mistake he made when fighting Marciano was knocking him down in the first round, because it "just made him mad!".

Apologies, I did not respond fully.

No chance Rocky would get close to Lewis to land those punches. However bad they were, Rahman and McCall at least had height, reach and faster upper body movement to me able to get in place for the shot. I see a Lewis Rocky fight similar to the Tua fight but easier for Lewis.

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. Wed 01 Aug 2012, 1:57 pm

Boxtthis wrote:

Now, this is an interesting point to make because boxing, to me, seems to be a bit of an anomaly when it comes to this rule. Sports like swimming, cycling, sprinting, etc, etc have undeniably moved on with every era that passes. But, boxing seems to be one of the few sports where there seems to have been a peak which is now declining in the modern era. I absolutely agree that most pre-war old timers would stand little chance with the athletes of today. And I agree, to an extent, with the application of that stance to Rocky Marciano. But, who amongst us doesn't have Ali as top 1 or 2 HW? The 60's, 70's, and 80's are regarded to all have far better eras than now. That holds in both an 'achievement in your own era' and 'a head-to-head across era' sense.

Precisely. Put Jesse Owens in a straight race with Usain Bolt and he gets beaten every single time. Have that same race run again and at every 5m interval station someone to throw an uppercut, jab, hook to the body or grapple and hold on to the runners, and all of the sudden, the times become less relevant and it becomes a much more even contest. To the point where skill, intelligence and technique become just as important as conditioning, strength and speed. There is little evidence that skill, intelligence and technique has all of a sudden become vastly superior, even if a clearer argument can be made for conditioning and strength. In fact, with the infrequency that modern boxers actually fight, there is an argument that their 'learning' curve is much less intense.

Boxing can't just be dumped in the same box as running or swimming in a straight line.

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by azania Wed 01 Aug 2012, 2:00 pm

88Chris05 wrote:It's interesting that you pick Frazier to do away with Marciano so routinely, Az.

I'd say that there are a lot of comparisons to be drawn between Joe and Rocky, in more ways than one; both sluggish starts, both blessed with superb endurance and powers of recovery, both reliant on crouching attacks to navigate the reach advantages that their opponents almost always had. Frazier a touch faster, Marciano hitting a shade harder, and on top of that their respective rankings in Heavyweight history are pretty equal, too.

I don't see any evidence to suggest that a fight between the two, likewise, would be anything other than a closely contested affair. Both were vulnerable early doors, but even then Marciano was never in a total panic stations moment in the opening rounds the way Frazier was against Bonavena. I believe that Rocky carried the slightly heavier punch, so while I wouldn't predict an early stoppage either way, I'd also suggest that if there is one, it'd be Frazier rather than Marciano who'd be on the wrong end of it.

Marciano was more cumbersome than Frazier, so I'd expect Joe to win most of the middle rounds, but in his final two or three fights you can really see how much Marciano's defence had improved; he got caught coming in a lot less than he'd previously done, had better balance etc. Frazier never really improved his defence at all, however, and if Marciano comes in to the ring the fitter and more conditioned man - which is very possible - then Frazier's got one hell of a torrent to withstand in the closing stages.

I honestly think there's very little between them, if anything at all. I imagine if they fought often enough there'd be stoppages now and then, but for the most part I'd see a series of decisions - unanimous, split and majority - shared out more or less equally between them.

Agree with much there, but Frazier has better upper body movement and defense. Rocky wasn't that hard to hit and Frazier would hit him often without return. I disagree as to who hit harder also. The tipping point for me is that when they both meet in the middle, Frazier's punch speed will be the decisive factor to take Rocky out. I feel Frazier's bobbing and weaving will make Rocky miss far too much. This fight will not last long.

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Post by azania Wed 01 Aug 2012, 2:02 pm

Boxtthis wrote:
azania wrote:
Boxtthis wrote:
azania wrote:I like the way people focussed on Audley as I threw you guys a bone and you snapped. So predictable.

Yes Az, you're a master manipulator. You're Machiavellian stratagems have made fools of us all. Or maybe you made another stupidly exaggerated statement and respondents rightfully pulled you up on it.

Can't be helped that many are so predictable. Always looking for the easy target. Just like pack hunters.

If you say silly things on a discussion forum then people are likely to pull you up on it. You made yourself an easy target by saying something silly. No one colludes in 'packs' against you. You say silly things and a bunch of people, responding on an individual basis, address your statements. This gives you the 'me against the world' situation that you seem to love.

In fact, why am I encouraging this?

I threw the Audley thing out there as a bone and you guys bit. Ignored the more salient point because I reckon deep down you know Rocky wasn't fit to hold the jocks of many boxers.

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Post by azania Wed 01 Aug 2012, 2:05 pm

Boxtthis wrote:
azania wrote:
Boxtthis wrote:
azania wrote:I like the way people focussed on Audley as I threw you guys a bone and you snapped. So predictable.

Yes Az, you're a master manipulator. You're Machiavellian stratagems have made fools of us all. Or maybe you made another stupidly exaggerated statement and respondents rightfully pulled you up on it.

Can't be helped that many are so predictable. Always looking for the easy target. Just like pack hunters.

If you say silly things on a discussion forum then people are likely to pull you up on it. You made yourself an easy target by saying something silly. No one colludes in 'packs' against you. You say silly things and a bunch of people, responding on an individual basis, address your statements. This gives you the 'me against the world' situation that you seem to love.

In fact, why am I encouraging this?

Look at it this way, do you think that if Archie Moore was fighting today he would be cheqing steak and spitting out the pulp or do you think he would make weight with a nutritionist, dietician, Ariza like person and all manner of people designed to get his body in peak condition for one night?

Again I was laughed at and now many are saying that Khan misses Ariza etc.

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Post by Rowley Wed 01 Aug 2012, 2:09 pm

azania wrote:
Look at it this way, do you think that if Archie Moore was fighting today he would be cheqing steak and spitting out the pulp

Probably not but do think he would be fighting about once every six months, so swings and roundabouts as they say.

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Post by Boxtthis Wed 01 Aug 2012, 2:10 pm

I'm officially out of this thread. Retired. The basic processes of dialectic have been shat on.

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 01 Aug 2012, 2:51 pm

Boxtthis wrote:I'm officially out of this thread. Retired. The basic processes of dialectic have been shat on.

Azania doesn't win arguments, he just wills his opponenents into exhasperated retardation.

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Post by azania Wed 01 Aug 2012, 2:51 pm

rowley wrote:
azania wrote:
Look at it this way, do you think that if Archie Moore was fighting today he would be cheqing steak and spitting out the pulp

Probably not but do think he would be fighting about once every six months, so swings and roundabouts as they say.

Well he wont have a 200 fight career that's for sure. Probably not even a 50 fight career. But he would have been a better conditioned boxer and probably a better boxer also.

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Post by azania Wed 01 Aug 2012, 2:52 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Boxtthis wrote:I'm officially out of this thread. Retired. The basic processes of dialectic have been shat on.

Azania doesn't win arguments, he just wills his opponenents into exhasperated retardation.

well done toppy. Probably the 100th post of yours that is simply a dig at me. Great manner of debating there old boy.

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Post by Rowley Wed 01 Aug 2012, 2:57 pm

azania wrote:
rowley wrote:
azania wrote:
Look at it this way, do you think that if Archie Moore was fighting today he would be cheqing steak and spitting out the pulp

Probably not but do think he would be fighting about once every six months, so swings and roundabouts as they say.

Well he wont have a 200 fight career that's for sure. Probably not even a 50 fight career. But he would have been a better conditioned boxer and probably a better boxer also.

Can only hope Az, if he was lucky he might get to be as good as Pascal or Dawson.

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Post by azania Wed 01 Aug 2012, 3:01 pm

rowley wrote:
azania wrote:
rowley wrote:
azania wrote:
Look at it this way, do you think that if Archie Moore was fighting today he would be cheqing steak and spitting out the pulp

Probably not but do think he would be fighting about once every six months, so swings and roundabouts as they say.

Well he wont have a 200 fight career that's for sure. Probably not even a 50 fight career. But he would have been a better conditioned boxer and probably a better boxer also.

Can only hope Az, if he was lucky he might get to be as good as Pascal or Dawson.

If you say so rowley.

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Post by superflyweight Wed 01 Aug 2012, 3:04 pm

Well he wont have a 200 fight career that's for sure. Probably not even a 50 fight career. But he would have been a better conditioned boxer and probably a better boxer also.

You've jumped the shark about six or seven times on this thread alone, Az. May be some kind of record.

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Post by fearlessBamber Wed 01 Aug 2012, 3:08 pm

azania wrote:Point missed. Newton was a great scientist. Doesn't make him a lesser scientist because many A level students know more than he does. Ditto Rocky. Great boxer but better boxers came after and better fought before. Right place at the right time.

No 'A' level student past or present (especially present) has 'known' more than Newton.

I can only assume with the 'Ditto' Rocky you mean that many 'A' level students know more.


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Post by azania Wed 01 Aug 2012, 3:26 pm

OK. Many Under Grads then. Sheesh, talk about splitting hairs. The point is, what Newton discovered is now taught in Uni. Many post Grads know far more than Newton ever knew. Doesn't make Newton less of a scientist.

Assume what you want and split hairs whilst assuming what you want.

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Post by fearlessBamber Wed 01 Aug 2012, 3:43 pm

azania wrote:OK. Many Under Grads then. Sheesh, talk about splitting hairs. The point is, what Newton discovered is now taught in Uni. Many post Grads know far more than Newton ever knew. Doesn't make Newton less of a scientist.

Assume what you want and split hairs whilst assuming what you want.

Newton knew and worked out more things about the universe than anyone in history. Top scientists, as individuals, now know different stuff not more stuff.

The passing of time does not necessarily imply progress or evolution - despite 100m times getting better!

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 01 Aug 2012, 3:44 pm

azania wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Boxtthis wrote:I'm officially out of this thread. Retired. The basic processes of dialectic have been shat on.

Azania doesn't win arguments, he just wills his opponenents into exhasperated retardation.

well done toppy. Probably the 100th post of yours that is simply a dig at me. Great manner of debating there old boy.

what's the point of debating with you though? There's half a dozen posters on this thread, all more knowledgeable than you or I and capable of putting together much more coherent well reasonend arguments but still you drag the thread on/down.

which is why you are considered a WUM.

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 01 Aug 2012, 3:46 pm

azania wrote:Assume what you want and split hairs whilst assuming what you want.

And there's the daily pot.....kettle.....black post, thanks for not letting us down Az.

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Post by Lumbering_Jack Wed 01 Aug 2012, 3:51 pm

I think Az is trying to become the new D4. I wonder who the new Coxy will be. My money is on tophat (or Toppy as Az affectionately calls you).

Let me just see if get the drift though. Marciano, despite being an unbeaten heavyweight champ is not top 50 in the HW division. He would also lose to fighters such as Audley. In addition to this he would also not be ranked in any of the SMW, LHW, or CW divisions because his skills are so lacking?

Wow, he really wasa rubbish.

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Post by azania Wed 01 Aug 2012, 3:56 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
azania wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Boxtthis wrote:I'm officially out of this thread. Retired. The basic processes of dialectic have been shat on.

Azania doesn't win arguments, he just wills his opponenents into exhasperated retardation.

well done toppy. Probably the 100th post of yours that is simply a dig at me. Great manner of debating there old boy.

what's the point of debating with you though? There's half a dozen posters on this thread, all more knowledgeable than you or I and capable of putting together much more coherent well reasonend arguments but still you drag the thread on/down.

which is why you are considered a WUM.

Very good Toppy. Is that why you seem to post about me and not adress anything made my anyone. Either that or you simply are a cheerleader for others. Man up son and contribute. If you don't like it, move along. A friendly advice Toppy. thumbsup

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Post by azania Wed 01 Aug 2012, 3:59 pm

Lumbering_Jack wrote:I think Az is trying to become the new D4. I wonder who the new Coxy will be. My money is on tophat (or Toppy as Az affectionately calls you).

Let me just see if get the drift though. Marciano, despite being an unbeaten heavyweight champ is not top 50 in the HW division. He would also lose to fighters such as Audley. In addition to this he would also not be ranked in any of the SMW, LHW, or CW divisions because his skills are so lacking?

Wow, he really wasa rubbish.

What does unbeaten mean when you're fighting old men and small guys. Or as MM said, 8 year old girls?

Who said he wouldn't be ranked in the SMW, LHW of CW division? - please answer or are you making shight up again?

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 01 Aug 2012, 4:06 pm

Lumbering_Jack wrote:I think Az is trying to become the new D4. I wonder who the new Coxy will be. My money is on tophat (or Toppy as Az affectionately calls you).

Let me just see if get the drift though. Marciano, despite being an unbeaten heavyweight champ is not top 50 in the HW division. He would also lose to fighters such as Audley. In addition to this he would also not be ranked in any of the SMW, LHW, or CW divisions because his skills are so lacking?

Wow, he really wasa rubbish.

LOL I think he thinks 'toppy' will annoy me. It doesn't. It's 1) slightly endearing; 2) proves he's a WUM (as by definition it's a wind-up tactic); and 3) petulence/condescension is a sign of defeat.

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