NZ vs. India at Hyderabad

First topic message reminder :

--So tomorrow starts more test match cricket.....
NZ hit some highs by drawing a series in Aus and holding SA to a creditable draw batting out 4 sessions.....
and then they hot a low losing rather tamely to WI in WI.....
the diffrence I believe between the high and the low was John Wright who they sacked.....
I saw they have some good left arm seamers, and Bracewell is a poor man's Vernon Philander with bat and ball.
In the absence of Vettori....Patel gets a break
Ross Taylor and McCullum are IPL stars and amply familiar with India.

--India is India......back to tigers at home and lambs abroad status after their dabble with status on top on the bac¨k of some overseas wins...courtey Ganguly and Gary Kirsten.

We have to see if even their tigers at home status is unchallenged with VVSL and Dravid gone , Sehwag slowed and Tendulkar not so profilic any more.

England should be monitoring India's new middle order batters very very closely.....who are likely to be Pujara, Kohli and Rahane....exposing these will be Eng's best chance towards a battle of equality later.

What few notice but Kirsten remarked.....India's ascent was on the back of celver use and almost an equal contribution from their seamers, even in home conditions.

Zaheer is the best exponent of reverse after Wasim Akram....and Yadav is as fast as any one in the world on his day......produces half a dozen wicket taking balls...inspite of being expensive.

Indian spinners are not in the quality of Kumble and Harbhajan ( at his prime) anymore......but the pitches will ensure thay are a handful.

The Indian XI will be following.....i do not know enouhg about the NZ team to list the possible XI.

1) Sehwag
2) Gambhir
3) Rahane...althouhg a school of thouhg believes hanae should open and Sehwag to bat in the middle order
4) Tendulkar
5) Pujara
6) Kohli
7) Dhoni
8) Ashwin
9) Zaheer
10) Ojha
11) Yadav

but for the bad light, Dhoni would have brought on the seamers to utilize reverse swing.

interesting would be to see if NZ can avoid follow-on.......and would dhoni enforce it

KP_fan wrote:how is the little WK as a batsman ?

He opens the batting for Canterbury in NZ 1st class cricket, and scored a few in the Windies. I think Watling is rated as the better batsman, but van Wyk is the better gloveman.

Watling I must say was pretty impressive during the ODIs in the West Indies. Didn't have lots of success opening in the only test, but I think he should be given a go.
New Zealand's most entertaining batsman bats at 11!.

Mike Selig wrote:I think the 3rd umpire probably said "I can't help you, over to you guys" which is fair enough, there just wasn't a TV angle which told you anything. The on-field umpires clearly thought it was out, so gave it. Fair enough. We certainly haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise.

Pitch really ripping, NZ will do well to score 200 from here.

Absolutely. After years of batsmen being unjustly reprieved because of inconclusive TV evidence, there has been a recent trend to trust the 'Out' instincts unless it can clearly be said that the ball touched the ground. And I'd say that's a good thing. From what I saw in this particular case I'm pretty much certain that the catch was clean.

Its needless to say that India are well on top in the game, but I think they'll be slightly disappointed not to have made even more with the bat. The 1st England v SA Test showed how when playing good teams making it really count can be crucial.

New Zealand are obviously very poor against spin, and batting 2nd hasn't made life easier for them. But I'm not sure how much India will learn from most likely bowling them over twice by hardly using the seamers at all.

I wonder if India will enforce the follow-on though. If NZ could somehow make them chase 150 on this pitch it could be quite difficult on day 5 (I think this pitch will start to offer some uneven bounce to the seamers as it progresses). I think Inidia will bat on and make the game safe...

Don't think India should enforce the follow on even if there is a chance. If there is a good first innings lead there will be even less pressure on the batting lineup and even those players who haven't been among the runs would get another chance to get back some of the touch and get back to the ways of test match batting.
Other than giving opportunities to young players I don't think its a lot about learning a lot many new things. Its obvious that Zaheer Khan and Umesh Yadav are India's best bet in the pace department with an inconsistent, out of form, back from injury Ishant Sharma as next in line. It is far more important to get back to winning ways. The defeats in Australia and England are fresh in the mind because of the magnitude, its so important therefore to strongly come back to winning ways.
In that context its of at most importance that you play to your strength. Regardless of the absence of a great spinner in their side, India have 2 very handy spinners at their disposal. Their batsmen are very good playing spin and most of the touring sides have major problems playing spin. It is remarkable the BCCI has allowed to have a lively pitch for this game, that too a series starter. We would have a lively and helpful pitch if only the team happen to fall behind in a series otherwise.
The seamers would have more of a role against Australia and even England. Reverse swing would become important and Zaheer is one of the best in that department at present and Yadav is also learning.

I actually think that there are question marks about both Zaheer and Yadav.

Zaheer - Clearly worth a place in the side, but is the pre-injury version back or is the reduced pace and somewhat effectiveness bowler seen in Australia what we're going to get from now on?

Yadav - Does he have the consistency to be one of only two seamers? I'd suggest not, but then I couldn't give you the name of any good alternative other than Praveen Kumar.

The questions about both Khan and Yadav are important ones Shelsey, but as you rightly said there are not much else available as option. Zaheer wasn't at his best in Australia, but then even on pitches where the other pacers could have given him some support he had to do it all alone untill Yadav found some wicket taking form. By that time Zaheer was exhausted and was carrying a few niggles. But the man knows his body very well, and often can produce inspired bursts of fine reverse swing spels as he did during the first test of the series where India stood with a chance. Would have been better if he could produce a bit more pace, more prolonged bowling spels and stuff, but well, life isn't easy that ways for a 33 year fast bowler.
As far as Yadav goes, the situation is that he's a wicket taking bowler who would go for a few runs, someone like a Steve Finn. Finn has Anderson and Broad who both are fine wicket takers as well as containers, sadly India can't have such luxuries in the pace department. However in home conditions their spinners are more than a handful, and Yadav can mostly be used as an out and out attacking option. It was good to see him bowling at 90 mph today, and interestingly, it was Zaheer who went for a few in the early overs.
As we discussed elsewhere, we in India are forced to talk mostly about the potential of Ishant Sharma even today rather than the actuall output. Even after playing 45 tests he hasn't quite figured out length he has to bowl and even his greatest asset, the pace has also gone down. With Praveen Kumar the problem is that after the England tour he got injured, and since then he has been a shadow of his former self. Never a real quick bowler to start with, PK's pace went down even further, and even the control that made him such a force has also slipped. At his best he could be a fine addition to the Indian pace bowling unit, but at present he is far from that stage. It has also to be remembered That Praveen's strength is in getting the ball to swing conventionally, but in India its reverse that could make more of an impact.

There is forecast for rain in Hyderabad......whihc is the main reason why follow-on should be considered

Seemingly team India is also thinking on those lines, R Ashwin in the end of the day press meet hinted India would opt for the follow on if they manage to bowl NZ out early tomorrow.

KP_fan wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

KP_fan wrote:Looks like the reality of english bolwing "on current form"is too harsh to accept ...for fans

Patel won't have done worse than Swann's 4 wickets @ 77 apiece
Boult is better than Broad and Bresnan...and a little better to the reduced-pace anderson we saw against aagaint SA
Bracewell was also at 138kph looking more potent that Broad and bresanan....and almost like anderson in the series against SA.

Only James Franklin looked like Braod.....but he is playing as the 5th bowler...something I always advocated for broad also.

England's bowling has turned medicore....and that is why thiey lost 2-0 in home conditions and 4 out of 6 overseas tests so far this year....it is a bitter disappointing truth , more comfortable to deny for the moment if you are a die-hard fan

Probably sums up how much cricket you watch. It was the batsmen who cost us in the UAE.

No..that is giving cheap escape to Eng bowlers....batsmen are no doubt having some responsiblity....

but the English bowlers could not take 20 wickets chearper than Pakistani bowlers ion similar conditions.....agaist a known weaker and technically less competent batting lineup

I'm not going to put an insult here, its not the way forward on this forum. So i'll simply say I will disagree massively with your opinion here. Broad, Anderson, Swann and even Panesar were the ones who kept us in most of those tests, simple. On pitches that were batsmen friendly, pretty much all the top order were pretty ordinary.

England vs Pakistan 1st Test:

1st innings: 192 top scorer-Prior 70*
2nd innings: 160 top scorer-Trott 49

All England bowlers apart from Swann economies were in the 2. category. not bad bowling at all.

2nd Test:

Pakistan 1st innings: 257, again all England bowlers in the 2. category for econmies, Anderson 19.4-5-46-4-1.95 the stand out

England 1st innings: 327, finally getting it together, Cook 95

Pakistan 2nd innings: 214, Broad /Panesar going at just over 1.5 runs an over.

England 2nd innings: 72!!!

3rd Test:

Pakistan 1st innings: 99 !!

England 1st innings: 141

Pakistan 2nd innings: 365 but again England bowled well, limiting them to under 400 on flat wickets.

England 2nd innings: 252

England's batsmen apart from the one time were unable to put pressure on Pakistan. The England bowlers were outstanding, giving away hardly any runs on roads. England's batsmen were just not up to the task and cost us the series. Where you get the idea that it was England's bowlers who should take most of the blame is beyond me if i'm honest.

with spinners doing bulk of the bowling...seamers are relatively less worked.
and in second innings it will be spinners and they don't ned much rest.

KP_Fan,

Just look at the scorecards, the seamers were going through 20 overs plus every time they bowled nearly, and yes when Panesar played they weren't expected to bowl long spells but still bowled allot of overs.

Face it, the England batsmen didn't score enough runs. Anyone who watched that series with Pakistan had the same opinion that the batters didn't cope with the spin of Pakistan, along with Gul on a couple occasions and didn't score big runs.

martyr wrote:

I'm not going to put an insult here, its not the way forward on this forum. So i'll simply say I will disagree massively with your opinion here. Broad, Anderson, Swann and even Panesar were the ones who kept us in most of those tests, simple. On pitches that were batsmen friendly, pretty much all the top order were pretty ordinary.

.

--not insulting should a norm and you are stating the obvious.

--I also believe batsmnen should have done more........but with real top sides, such as Aussies at their prime, even when batting is having a poor /average match or series, the bowling steps up one or two notches.

--In that series in UAE it wasn't enouhg that English bolwers were restricting Pak to low scores.......they needed to step up further and reduce the Pakistanis by another 100 opdd runs per test match...because there was spin and reverse swing availbale on those pitches.

--England bowlers could not step up...like I have seen Aussies step up a number of time.

Even when fully fit and on top of their game....Eng seamers Braod Bresnan and to a lesser extent Anderson aree conditions dependent.
and when not on top of their game they are evn more medicore...as we saw againt SA.

Swann needs the seamers to build the initial pressure.......else on his own he doesn't set up a match like a Warne, Murali or Ajmal can.

---They were not bad in UAE.....but not like the top attacks of top teams that can step up and when needed subsidize the batting.

--Goping Forward.....Finn has that ability as has Monty for subcontinent conditions...and that will be Engh's challange in India...how to get two spinners + Finn in the side ?

martyr wrote:KP_Fan,

Face it, the England batsmen didn't score enough runs. Anyone who watched that series with Pakistan had the same opinion that the batters didn't cope with the spin of Pakistan, along with Gul on a couple occasions and didn't score big runs.

I didn't say English bowlers were bad

They just weren't able to...and don't look likely to be able to step up....in conditions outside their comfort zone such as in UAE....and match the Pakistani bowlers.
or even on flatter pitches in their Eng......such as T1 in Oval against SA.

So what we are saying is in flat or subcontinental conditons....the onus is onEnglish batsmen to outscore the opponent.

But hey the conditons are foreign for the batsmen also.....and unless someone plays an exceptional inning like KP did in Lanka...bowlers cannot win it

Good teams of an era generally have super-strong bowling that subsidizes their batting in foreign conditions....Windies--with 4 great fast bowlers,..
Pakistan --for a while with Wasim, Waqar, Imran , Qadir macand then with Saqlain
Australia--with Warne, McGrath, Gilespie and Lee/ Bichel/ Fleming/Kasper etc....won in India, Lanka and Pak
SA---for the last 6 or 7 years haven't lost a series overseas inspite of not having a good spinner..purely on the strength of their pace.

Good teams of an era....in foreign conditions simply outbowl their opponents even if their batting scores low.

Kp_fan what on earth are you talking about? In the Test Series against Pakistan in the UAE the England bowlers series averages were:

Broad - 20.46
Panesar - 21.57
Swann - 25.07
Anderson - 27.06

Those are fantastic averages anywhere in the World but especially in the UAE which is batsman-friendly. As Martyr said, it was the batting that let us down. In Sri Lanka this year, our bowlers series averages were:

Anderson - 21.77
Swann 22.18
Finn - 27
Bresnan - 35.5

England bowlers are great anywhere in the World. Fact. They will give the Indian batsmen kittens. Fact. If our batsmen can step up, the series is over. Fact.

Duty281 wrote: . If our batsmen can step up, the series is over. Fact.

correct..we atleast agree on this part..that if Eng batsmen do not step...the series is over...bowlers cannot go one or two gears higher.
..which means averaging 5 to 10 runs lower than they did in UAE for example.

as i stated in my previous post...the 4 or 5 great attacks I have seen in my times( and listed in my last post ).....didn't care how many their batsmen score......they get the oppositon out for even lower.

KPFan, I have to say you set very very high standards for the England bowling unit. I am reminded of many English supporters getting miffed with KP when he at times gets out after scoring 60 or 70, or if he makes a low score even if the previous innings was a double. I believe England batting was dreadful throughout the UAE series and but for KP's that fine knock, they didn't do great in Sri Lanka either. But their bowling unit did a pretty decent job both in UAE and even in Sri Lanka. Pakistan, in conditions that they were more used to than was the case with England, was never going to fold for sub-standard totals far too often. But if you look at it, you could see the England bowlers bowled them out ones for a score below hundred another time for a total that was just above 200. But that advantage was just given up by a terrible batting display. If you get bowled for 72, then you surely have no chance of winning a test match that often.

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote: . If our batsmen can step up, the series is over. Fact.

correct..we atleast agree on this part..that if Eng batsmen do not step...the series is over...bowlers cannot go one or two gears higher.

as i stated in my previous post...the 4 or 5 great attacks I have seen in my times( and listed in my last post ).....didn't care how many their batsmen score......they get the oppositon out for even lower.

And I have every confidence that they will step up. There's only 1 World-Class bowler in India's side, nothing much to fear. The batting looks quite brittle as well. Shall we say, 2-0 England?

Even in the 2nd test of the England India series last year where England got bowled out for 222, their bowling unit steped up and bowled India out without much of a big lead. But significantly, their batting clicked 2nd time around and they came from behind to win the match. Otherwise without the batting and bowling units clicking in some or the other stage of the match there is no consistent chance of winning a test match. And this is what England found out in the UAE the hard way last winter.

by Fists of Fury Today at 12:33 pm
KP Fan, on the contrary, I'd suggest that without rain England would likely have won the 2nd Test.

Now pack it in with the childish nonsense, because don't think I'm not aware of who you are - you've been given a second chance, I suggest you think about that.


Who is it???
Anyone???

msp83 wrote:KPFan, I have to say you set very very high standards for the England bowling unit.

Right.
Eng belived and celebrated they were No.1
Rightly so it was a milestone to be proud of.
I am simply judging them on the reference bar of a true-top-team...... the 6 odd bowling attacks I have listed
set the refrence bar...and outbowl their opponents regardless of their low scores.
and you are right the standard represented by that refernce bas is ver high....much higher than the bowling England has today.

Duty, Pakistan also had just the one world class bowler in their ranks in Ajmal, but we all know how England made Rehman look a worldbeater don't we? Ashwin is a handful in Indian conditions, and Ojha has improved a lot as a test bowler, particularly after spending some time in the English county championship. And Zaheer Khan, at his best is better than any of the England seamers with regard to reversing the ball and producing a match turning spel in sub-continent conditions.

KP_fan wrote:

msp83 wrote:KPFan, I have to say you set very very high standards for the England bowling unit.

Right.
Eng belived and celebrated they were No.1
Rightly so it was a milestone to be proud of.
I am simply judging them on the reference bar of a true-top-team...... the 6 odd bowling attacks I have listed
set the refrence bar...and outbowl their opponents regardless of their low scores.
and you are right the standard represented by that refernce bas is ver high....much higher than the bowling England has today.

1st Test in the UAE: England get rolled out for 192 on a flat deck, 400+ pitch. England bowler's do well to limit Pakistan to 338 but the batsmen fudge it up again. Pakistan need 15 to win, game over.

2nd Test in the UAE: England bowl Pakistan out for under 300 on a flat pitch twice, top effort by the bowlers. But the batsmen muck it up, 72 all out anyone?

3rd Test in the UAE: Pakistan are rolled out for 99 in the 1st innings on yet another flat pitch, do I need to say that our batsmen failed once more?

msp83 wrote:Duty, Pakistan also had just the one world class bowler in their ranks in Ajmal, but we all know how England made Rehman look a worldbeater don't we? Ashwin is a handful in Indian conditions, and Ojha has improved a lot as a test bowler, particularly after spending some time in the English county championship. And Zaheer Khan, at his best is better than any of the England seamers with regard to reversing the ball and producing a match turning spel in sub-continent conditions.

Zaheer Khan is indeed the chap I was referring to as World-Class. And since he's not a spinner, I'm struggling to see how the English batsmen will have massive trouble this time around.

Duty281 wrote:Zaheer Khan is indeed the chap I was referring to as World-Class. And since he's not a spinner, I'm struggling to see how the English batsmen will have massive trouble this time around.

I think we need to be wary of the Indian spinners. Ashwin has proved a handful in the small number of Tests he's played in India thus far (admittedly against West Indies and New Zealand), and I'm pretty certain Dhoni will look to get him into the attack early so that we can't settle against the pace bowlers, who I don't think will trouble us. Ojha is also a very competent left-arm spinner - in the same category as Rehman, Herath and Panesar. And we didn't exactly play Rehman and Herath with ease, did we? They aren't Warne, Ajmal or Murali but then that type of mystery wasn't required to cause problems in the UAE.

That's not to say that we'll definitely be in big trouble. The batsmen will be well aware that they underperformed massively in the 4 Tests they lost in Asia last winter, and will surely have put in the work towards getting things right. There's no reason that Cook, Trott, Bopara or Bell should struggle particularly against spin (Strauss suffers from a lack of options, and Taylor/ Bairstow are largely untested) and consequently we are very capable of making big totals. Indeed, we've generally played spin very comfortably on home soil.

Duty281 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote: . If our batsmen can step up, the series is over. Fact.

correct..we atleast agree on this part..that if Eng batsmen do not step...the series is over...bowlers cannot go one or two gears higher.

as i stated in my previous post...the 4 or 5 great attacks I have seen in my times( and listed in my last post ).....didn't care how many their batsmen score......they get the oppositon out for even lower.

And I have every confidence that they will step up. There's only 1 World-Class bowler in India's side, nothing much to fear. The batting looks quite brittle as well. Shall we say, 2-0 England?

Well, didn't you say the same thing ahead of the SA series? I like optimism but come on, be a bit realistic. India have a better bowling attack against SL and we didn't exactly hammer them, did we?
If the pitch is similar to what it has been for this Test, then we are well and truly screwed.

Its not just in UAE that the England batting struggled. Even in this summer, they had a couple of collapses against the West Indies, and the batting was not top class in the South Africa series either. Strauss had a pretty poor series with the bat, Cook had the one good innings and nothing else, Trott failed to convert the starts he got. Bell averaged under 30, Bopara's only test was a failure with just 22 runs in all. Only Prior, Pietersen and Bairstow could bring out some decisive performances with the bat, and there are every possibilities that one of them, who scored a test ton in India in the past and averages 62 against them overall might not even be considered for the squad.

Anyways back to the match, NZ are bowled out for 159. That is a 279 run lead for India, and perhaps keeping in mind the not the most promissing weather forecast they have enforced the follow on.
In the first innings, Ravichandran Ashwin took 6 wickets and Pragyan Ojha took 3. Umesh Yadav picked up the other wicket. James Franklin topscored for New Zealand with 43 not out.

Ashwin has 3 fifers in 4 home Tests. Not sure why we should be so confident of doing well against him, particularly without our best player.
Strauss is a walking wicket. Cook and Trott are out of form. Bell has a shocking record in Asia. Without a certain someone, the batting looks distinctly average on Asian pitches (it might just do ok at home). In fairness, the series should be a cakewalk for India unless Mr.Anonymous is recalled.

I am actually quite surprised that Dhoni enforced the follow on. I am not sure the BCCI are overly keen on 3 day Tests. Dhoni might not get turning pitches against England and Australia if these matches finish early.

Ojha opening the bowling in the NZ 2nd innings and Zaheer Khan from the other end. I'd say give Yadav a burst for a 3-4 quick over spel and then bring the spinners on.

Shanky the BCCI seemingly realized the test team's winning form is also important in retaining the interest of the viewing public, and thereby that of the sponsors. That has done it for this pitch. I am sure the wickets would be turning for England and Australia, those series would be built up as paybacks.

McCullum showing a sense of application here, good signs for New Zealand.

msp83 wrote:Shanky the BCCI seemingly realized the test team's winning form is also important in retaining the interest of the viewing public, and thereby that of the sponsors. That has done it for this pitch. I am sure the wickets would be turning for England and Australia, those series would be built up as paybacks.

I hope so. I want to see us challenged on different pitches. Thats what makes touring special. Don't want to see flat roads.

New Zealand batting very defensive here, may not be the best idea against the spinners. They have survived 7 overs and yet only 4 runs on the board. A couple of quick wickets, and despite the overs they managed to see through, they would find they haven't moved much forward. Dhoni interestingly going on with Ojha.

The important thing for India in this passage is that Zaheer Khan is maintaining a pretty decent pace throughout the spel. He's bringing it up to the midd 130s and keeping it above 130 kph consistently. In Australia his pace had dipped below that and made him less effective.

Zaheer into his 5th over here. this might be his last over of this spel.

Ashwin's off the field for some time now.

Ashwin's back on the field, and Yadav is getting ready to have a bowl.

well Ojha ain't turning anywhere like he did yesterday

Yadav starts with a pacy over. This lad can bowl fast!. But again he has one goind down leg that Guptill gladly helps along for his first boundary.

Guptill's now opening up, couple of boundaries in that Ojha over.

There goes NZ's first wicket, Guptill was looking to take the attack to Ojha in the previous over and had hit him for 2 boundaries, but its payback time and he gets him LBW. New Zealand 26-1.

Close call there for Guptill, but he has to blaim only himself, padding up to the spinner is not the best way to play, its not without reason you are given a bat!.

Yadav is pacy but he's not locating his line right. Too many leg sidish balls already and those are free runs that would take the pressure away a bit.

Oja did start turning it...and was a well planned dismissal of Guptil......turned a few away from him quite sharply...and made him shoulder arms to the one he brough in with the arm.

and looks like immediatel afterwards Dhoni dropped one.

I'd be surprised if we get play today.....however there are 2 full days and India needs about 1 day max to win this

New Zealand did well to lose only 1 wicket in that 18 over spel of play. Dark clouds have enveloped the ground and the players are off. Possibility of a sustained spel of rain, and we will have to hold on and see if there will be any more play today.

Heavy rains and if it stays on a bit more that should be it for the day.

Anybody else really impressed with Murali Kartik in the studio. Offering some really interesting comments on spin bowling.