Your Lions team

First topic message reminder :

This isn't who you think will be selected, but who you would like to see.

So many factors will determine the real selection next summer....

Match fitness
Injuries
Form
Six Nations form
Who's behaving off the pitch
Potential combinations
Currently uncapped players who might have a barnstorming 6N.

Even though Wales won the slam in 2012 it will have absolutely no bearing on summer 2013. We learned that lesson all too well in 2005 when some complete idiot thought that the merits of RWC 2003 would be completely transferable while undermining almost an entire squad of form players who had just won a grand slam.

I would be a twist of irony to see Gatland select a ridiculously large Welsh contingent, but two wrongs don't make a right. I love the lions it's a great tradition and I want to see the best players selected. If England hands down win the 2013 6N then I would actively promote the idea of a English dominated lions XV. What Woodward did was disgusting and it still annoys me to this day. Playing Wilko out of position against one of the best All Black teams ever seen, omitting the form 12 in NH rugby and one of the best wings the world has ever seen. It was a farce beyond belief.

Gatland should be able to raise the Lions a notch or two from 2009. I'm convinced there will be no bias.

If the Lions were picked now & all were fit I would like to see this team.

15. Leigh Halfpenny
14. Alex Cuthbert
13. BOD
12. Manu Tuilagi
11. George North
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Danny Care

8. Jamie Heaslip
7. Sam Warburton
6. Danny Lydiate
5. Alun-wyn Jones
4. POC
3. Adam Jones
2. Rory Best
1. Gethin Jenkins

I like the Idea of Tuilagi as a winger, a la Va'aiga Tuigamala.

I would like to see more footballing intent in the midfield, Tuilagi can't kick and rarely passes. That would be too predictable against the talented backline the Aussies are likely to pick when their players return to fitness.

With the likelyhood of North, Cuthbert and Visser being in the squad I cant see Manu being used there Maes

I can't see him being much use in the centre either unless he learns how to kick and pass. Tuilagi is a great runner, but we will need more than a strike runner at 13. We need a player like a young BOD, Alan Bateman, or Guscott who can create and make space.

If BOD isnt at the top of his game then JD2 may well be the best outside centre and we will be looking for a good inside centre...!

I really think that we could do much worse in the centre than Roberts and JDII.

Both are good link men, solid defensively and know each other's games.

The hardest thing about selecting the tour party will not be choosing on the form we'd like players to have, rather than the form they actually do have. For example, Ferris would be one of the first names down on my team sheet (assuming all are playing well, I prefer a back row of Rennie (7), Ferris (6) and O'Brien (8)) but I'm afraid that cannot see at present how his body is going to hold out until next year. We cannot take people carrying anything more than niggles.

O'Driscoll is enough of a pro and showed enough against the ABs in the second test to suggest that he's still the incumbent for 13, but plenty will change between now and next year and I think that the two Welshmen will get the nod in the centre.

The MacVisser sceptics won't change, of course, but other things will. My predications are actually that by next year Youngs comes back as being the form 9, Sexton cements his position as the best rounded 10, Kearney continues to rule the roost at 15, the wings will be Bowe and North with Visser on the test bench and Kelly Brown is a bolter for captaincy if Ferris and O'Brien are not fully fit.

Simples.

I can't see any back-row player other than Warburton being made captain to be honest. Form-dependent, he's probably the only one who could cement his position before the tour, and blindside is even more competitive than openside and 8. Lydiate, Ferris, SOB, Croft, possibly Robshaw, Brown etc all fighting for one position.

George,

The only part of that I would dis-agree with is that of the XV. Not saying Kearney won't be the best XV around but I do feel that Halfpennys kicking might give him the edge.

Look at how it worked with Jinks in 97

bedfordwelsh wrote:George,

The only part of that I would dis-agree with is that of the XV. Not saying Kearney won't be the best XV around but I do feel that Halfpennys kicking might give him the edge.

Look at how it worked with Jinks in 97

And Foden offers more of an attacking threat than both Kearney and 1/2p so its a nice problem to have.

George Carlin wrote:
The MacVisser sceptics won't change, of course, but other things will.

I imagine they will be changing their mind when they actually see what good player he is. For most critics it wont happen until the Calcutta Cup unfortunately. Then I imagine he will be very highly regarded.

Will Scotland play to a style that suits Visser? Edinburgh have always been a team that are willing to throw the ball around, play a bit of cavalier rugby, that’s going to suit a player like Visser, but Scotland on the other hand, well will he even see the ball?

I think he’s got the quality to become a good player internationally, but I think he’s always going to have his critics due to Scotland’s style of play.

Scotland have been throwing the ball about a lot more of late and if they don't its hardly Vissers fault. I expect him to get plenty of ball.

Visser looks for work, tracks the ball well, and doesnt seem to drop it anywhere near as much as some of his mates at International level did last year.

Ok, let me rephrase that, I know Scotland were the best at possession retention in the 6nations this year, but that didn’t stop them getting the wooden spoon. Not much any winger could do when any defense is set up to deal with a slow ball drifting out wide.

Can Scotland “earn the right to go wide” to allow Visser the space to do some damage? That’s really what I’m asking.

Yes, but Scotland needed backs like Visser who look for opportunities. With him and possibly Maitland (?) could be a potent bunch competing for the three positions at the back...!

Centre options are the issue for the scots...!

Mickado wrote:Will Scotland play to a style that suits Visser?

Do Ireland play a style of rugby which suits O'Driscoll or Bowe? I'd say not and it shows how lethal and classy these guys are that they have such impressive scoring records. Top, top finishers only need half a chance to score, in fact they create their own chances, where as some other guys have impressive records but its based on playing weaker teams and the fact that their team creates lots of chances. Shane Williams too got tries no matter how Wales were doing as a side.

If Visser is as good as people say then I'd expect him to get tries for Scotland regardless of how they play. He got a couple in the summer didn't he? So far so good.

Agreed Maesteg - by the 6N, Scotland will be looking at a back three of Visser, Hogg and Maitland, which is an enormous amount of gas. There's no way that those three won't score. We've manufactured tries with much less.

If we can just get the centres right and start eating what the Glasgow defence is having (they have conceded fewer points than anyone in the Robcop apart from the men of Ulster and then there's only 4 in it), we will have our best backline in 10 years. Dunbar and Horne have now provided a genuine and quality alternative to Scott and De Brainfart.

Will Robinson see it and pick on form? Stranger things have happened. Although not much stranger.

George a half back pairing with some patience during phase play, and the measure control Scotland's forwards often show will go well to seeing a few decent results.

Dunbar and Nathan might well be the centre's you need

thomh wrote:I can't see any back-row player other than Warburton being made captain to be honest. Form-dependent, he's probably the only one who could cement his position before the tour, and blindside is even more competitive than openside and 8. Lydiate, Ferris, SOB, Croft, possibly Robshaw, Brown etc all fighting for one position.

But Warburton faces similar competition for tge 7 shirt and his current domestic form is poor and his most recent International form was worse than any of his rivals for the 7 shirt. He is no more nailed on than any other potential back row captain

ChequeredJersey wrote:

thomh wrote:I can't see any back-row player other than Warburton being made captain to be honest. Form-dependent, he's probably the only one who could cement his position before the tour, and blindside is even more competitive than openside and 8. Lydiate, Ferris, SOB, Croft, possibly Robshaw, Brown etc all fighting for one position.

But Warburton faces similar competition for tge 7 shirt and his current domestic form is poor and his most recent International form was worse than any of his rivals for the 7 shirt. He is no more nailed on than any other potential back row captain

Come on CJ....he's Welsh....the Captaincy is his already...pointless discussing it

GeordieFalcon wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

thomh wrote:I can't see any back-row player other than Warburton being made captain to be honest. Form-dependent, he's probably the only one who could cement his position before the tour, and blindside is even more competitive than openside and 8. Lydiate, Ferris, SOB, Croft, possibly Robshaw, Brown etc all fighting for one position.

But Warburton faces similar competition for tge 7 shirt and his current domestic form is poor and his most recent International form was worse than any of his rivals for the 7 shirt. He is no more nailed on than any other potential back row captain

Come on CJ....he's Welsh....the Captaincy is his already...pointless discussing it

Give it a rest mate...!

Warburton is made of Glass these days so I don't expect him to be around for all three internationals vs. Aus, I'm sure he'd do a very good job off the field but I do worry about the top few inches and red mist on the big occasion!

GeordieFalcon wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

thomh wrote:I can't see any back-row player other than Warburton being made captain to be honest. Form-dependent, he's probably the only one who could cement his position before the tour, and blindside is even more competitive than openside and 8. Lydiate, Ferris, SOB, Croft, possibly Robshaw, Brown etc all fighting for one position.

But Warburton faces similar competition for tge 7 shirt and his current domestic form is poor and his most recent International form was worse than any of his rivals for the 7 shirt. He is no more nailed on than any other potential back row captain

Come on CJ....he's Welsh....the Captaincy is his already...pointless discussing it

Well, even if one makes that assumption, Ryan Jones is Welsh and playing well and covers 8 where I think there is less competition than at 7. First the team needs to be picked then the captain from the starting 15, that's why there is talk about a separate squad and tour captain

POC or BOD for Squad captain....?

I think Kelly Brown will have a chance of sneaking the lions captaincy.

He is playing well for Sarries and if he can guide Scotland to a couple of wins this Autumn and make a good showing in the 6N, the absence of Ferris and Lydiate due to injury has really left the door open for him.

Furthermore the last time the Lions beat the Ozzies in Australia was under a Scottish backrow captain......

I rate Brown highly, but the competition at 6 is fierce, so I can't see it personally. Ferris, Lydiate, Croft, SOB, Robshaw, Wood, Haskell, Strokosch...picking Brown as captain is to say that you are certain he'll be the best 6 for all three tests. Highly unlikely, despite his qualities.

It's an extremely tough one to call at the moment, and I don't envy Gatland the decision, as there isn't an obvious candidate at all (evidenced by this debate). All of POC, BOD and Warburton are good leaders and fine players, but there has to be question marks over all three, particularly given the injury records of all three, and the competition they face in their positions.

I wonder if Sexton is in contention. I know a lot is made of his half time speech in the HC final against Northampton, but he's one of the only players really guaranteed of his place in the Test XV. I know many prefer the captain to be a forward, but I don't think there's a forward (at least at present) guaranteed of his place. Warburton needs to be fully fit and play a strong 6 Nations to seal the deal here.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I think Kelly Brown will have a chance of sneaking the lions captaincy.

He is playing well for Sarries and if he can guide Scotland to a couple of wins this Autumn and make a good showing in the 6N, the absence of Ferris and Lydiate due to injury has really left the door open for him.

True but Lydiate, Ferris, Ryan Jones, Shingler as well as lads like Tom Wood will also all likely be fit and performing in six months time.

Yeah but at 7 there's Tipuric, Robshaw, Wood, Rennie, Barclay, SOB, POM, Brown, Haskell etc too. Most of the options at 7 are allrounders or 6.5s anyway. I'm not convinced Warburton is any more a fetcher 7 than Robshaw or SOB, if we want a "true 7" which I think isn't necessary anyway, Rennie best fits tge bill but his form has taken a dramatic dive!

ChequeredJersey wrote:Yeah but at 7 there's Tipuric, Robshaw, Wood, Rennie, Barclay, SOB, POM, Brown, Haskell etc too. Most of the options at 7 are allrounders or 6.5s anyway. I'm not convinced Warburton is any more a fetcher 7 than Robshaw or SOB, if we want a "true 7" which I think isn't necessary anyway, Rennie best fits tge bill but his form has taken a dramatic dive!

I'm an Edinburgh season ticket holder and I wouldn't agree that Rennie's form has taken a "dramatic dive". As a collective Edinburgh have been awful, but Rennie has been pretty busy when selected. He was phased in slightly at the start of the season due to his involvement over the summer, but when he's played he's played pretty well given the circumstances. His best trait is his link play, and Edinburgh have barely strung three passes together this season, and Bradley has adopted a highly unsuccessful rotation policy this season and I don't think Rennie has had back to back games, so it's difficult to assess his form.

I say this with a heavy heart, but I think he'll have to move on next season if he's to fulfil his considerable potential.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Yeah but at 7 there's Tipuric, Robshaw, Wood, Rennie, Barclay, SOB, POM, Brown, Haskell etc too. Most of the options at 7 are allrounders or 6.5s anyway. I'm not convinced Warburton is any more a fetcher 7 than Robshaw or SOB, if we want a "true 7" which I think isn't necessary anyway, Rennie best fits tge bill but his form has taken a dramatic dive!

What about Steffon Armatage. He is playing alot better at the moment than Warburton and no one seems to mention him.

IF, Gatland is only going to pick players for the Lions if they are playing for their country in their country, and not playing over seas. Then you can forget the likes of Mike Phillips, James Hook, Gethin Jenkins. to name just those 3.

Even more impressive recently as an open-side option is Chris Fusaro. He and Tipuric have been outstanding.

Fusaro is an incredibly quick player and has good bit of bulk to him too.

majesticimperialman wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Yeah but at 7 there's Tipuric, Robshaw, Wood, Rennie, Barclay, SOB, POM, Brown, Haskell etc too. Most of the options at 7 are allrounders or 6.5s anyway. I'm not convinced Warburton is any more a fetcher 7 than Robshaw or SOB, if we want a "true 7" which I think isn't necessary anyway, Rennie best fits tge bill but his form has taken a dramatic dive!

What about Steffon Armatage. He is playing alot better at the moment than Warburton and no one seems to mention him.

IF, Gatland is only going to pick players for the Lions if they are playing for their country in their country, and not playing over seas. Then you can forget the likes of Mike Phillips, James Hook, Gethin Jenkins. to name just those 3.

From The Telegraph last week...

British and Irish Lions head coach Warren Gatland keeps open mind about French-based players
Warren Gatland, the British and Irish Lions head coach, says he may be prepared to leave the door open for French-based players to join next summer’s tour of Australia even if they miss the squad departure because of Top 14 commitments.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/britishandirishlionsrugby/9646875/British-and-Irish-Lions-head-coach-Warren-Gatland-keeps-open-mind-about-French-based-players.html

Good, he needs the best 38 available and I'm pleased he's openly stated that he'll consider all available players. I know the start date is an issue, but there's a long history of players joining the tour slightly late and making a big impact. From memory Martin Corry (2001) and Ryan Jones (2005) are two.

Quite clearly there shouldn't be too many Welsh players. They got whitewashed in the summer by a relative new and untried Aus team. There are maybe 2 or 3 Welshmen that should get on the plane but that's about it. The core should be English and Irish.

I can think of 2-3 Welshman that should definitely start, never mind tour, EG4E

englandglory4ever wrote:Quite clearly there shouldn't be too many Welsh players. They got whitewashed in the summer by a relative new and untried Aus team. There are maybe 2 or 3 Welshmen that should get on the plane but that's about it. The core should be English and Irish.

We shall see. But as reigning Grand Slam champions (again) and World Cup semi finalists and not having lost to England or Ireland for sometime I would argue differently.

There will be a mix. Probably more Welsh than anything though the last Lions tour the reigning slam champions didn't have the most lions tourists. My guess is baring injuries there will be around the same English and Irish with slightly more Welsh and a handful of Scots.

I think most of the team will be Welsh and rightly so.

From an Irish perspective, remember our pack did do a job on Aus in the RWC. Healy, Best, O'Connell, Ferris and O'Brien were awesome and at times in that game gave the Aussie's a ferocious mauling.

Not saying they should all start. But there are some key Irish players in that pack that could come in very handy for the Lions.

I'd also love to see a Care/Sexton half pack pairing linking up with a mostly Welsh backline. And Richie Gray partnered with either POC or AW Jones.

From England, there are lots of very good possible starters, but not very many absolute probable starters. Although I'm a big Foden fan and would select him at fullback.

Feckless Rogue wrote:I think most of the team will be Welsh and rightly so.

From an Irish perspective, remember our pack did do a job on Aus in the RWC. Healy, Best, O'Connell, Ferris and O'Brien were awesome and at times in that game gave the Aussie's a ferocious mauling.

Not saying they should all start. But there are some key Irish players in that pack that could come in very handy for the Lions.

I'd also love to see a Care/Sexton half pack pairing linking up with a mostly Welsh backline. And Richie Gray partnered with either POC or AW Jones.

From England, there are lots of very good possible starters, but not very many absolute probable starters. Although I'm a big Foden fan and would select him at fullback.

Of course most of the team will be Welsh? Warren Gatland his the head coach ffs.

When was the last time Wales beet Australia in Australia?

They certainly did not win this time around did they?

Personaly IMO, their should be NO favourites at all.

The Lions Should be made up of "THE BEST" PLAYERS FROM ALL 4 NH TEAMS.


What makes you/any one think that Wales are the best team in the NH?

Winning a Grandslam against other NH teams means nothing when you are playing SH teams on SH soil.

majesticimperialman wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Yeah but at 7 there's Tipuric, Robshaw, Wood, Rennie, Barclay, SOB, POM, Brown, Haskell etc too. Most of the options at 7 are allrounders or 6.5s anyway. I'm not convinced Warburton is any more a fetcher 7 than Robshaw or SOB, if we want a "true 7" which I think isn't necessary anyway, Rennie best fits tge bill but his form has taken a dramatic dive!

What about Steffon Armatage. He is playing alot better at the moment than Warburton and no one seems to mention him.

IF, Gatland is only going to pick players for the Lions if they are playing for their country in their country, and not playing over seas. Then you can forget the likes of Mike Phillips, James Hook, Gethin Jenkins. to name just those 3.

How d'you know? Do you watch Toulon often, or are you just regurgitating again? Try watching a game of rugby for once in your life.

I think there'll be a pretty decent balance, and I personally don't think Gatland will show bias to Welsh players. He knows that if he wins this tour he'll be a Lions legend. He won't risk that to score petty points regarding nationality and composition of the squad.

Selection will take on board a number of factors no doubt. Ability, recent form, experience, touring record, fitness, character etc.

The suggestion that Gatland would risk his legacy by just picking Welsh players if in doubt I find absurb, as is the suggestion that only 2-3 Welsh players should tour. Clearly not a rugby fan.

Morgannwg wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Yeah but at 7 there's Tipuric, Robshaw, Wood, Rennie, Barclay, SOB, POM, Brown, Haskell etc too. Most of the options at 7 are allrounders or 6.5s anyway. I'm not convinced Warburton is any more a fetcher 7 than Robshaw or SOB, if we want a "true 7" which I think isn't necessary anyway, Rennie best fits tge bill but his form has taken a dramatic dive!

What about Steffon Armatage. He is playing alot better at the moment than Warburton and no one seems to mention him.

IF, Gatland is only going to pick players for the Lions if they are playing for their country in their country, and not playing over seas. Then you can forget the likes of Mike Phillips, James Hook, Gethin Jenkins. to name just those 3.

How d'you know? Do you watch Toulon often, or are you just regurgitating again? Try watching a game of rugby for once in your life.

I do watch a game of ruby lot of games actualy. And the last time i watched Sam Warburton he went off injured (again)and the last time i watched Steffo ARMATAGE play he came away with Man of the Match.

And by the way he DID FINISH THE GAME, AND NOT GO OFF WITH A INJURIE. OK

Atrocious grammar... And I still don't believe you.

To be fair the accounts from France re: Steffon Armitage have been overwhelmingly positive, and SCW expressed surprise that he hadn't been included in the England squad, particularly given their absence of an out and out 7.

It's still early days in the season, and I think the 6 Nations will be the time to assess the fitness of Sam Warburton and to see how he's playing.

Lots of options in the back row for this tour, and I think the competition for that shirt makes it tricky for Warburton to be named captain. Time will tell.

Morgannwg wrote:Atrocious grammar... And I still don't believe you.

TOUGH

ChequeredJersey wrote:

thomh wrote:I can't see any back-row player other than Warburton being made captain to be honest. Form-dependent, he's probably the only one who could cement his position before the tour, and blindside is even more competitive than openside and 8. Lydiate, Ferris, SOB, Croft, possibly Robshaw, Brown etc all fighting for one position.

But Warburton faces similar competition for tge 7 shirt and his current domestic form is poor and his most recent International form was worse than any of his rivals for the 7 shirt. He is no more nailed on than any other potential back row captain

I didn't say that he was nailed on. What I meant was that Warburton at his best is clearly the best 7 and a strong captaincy contender, but that I don't think there is such a clear stand-out in either other position. Warburton might not even make the team, but he's the only back row player who I would see as a likely captaincy contender if he can hit form because the other positions are so competitive. Kelly Brown is excellent of course, but I wouldn't have him as clearly ahead of Croft, Lydiate or Ferris if everyone was at their best.

majesticimperialman wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:Yeah but at 7 there's Tipuric, Robshaw, Wood, Rennie, Barclay, SOB, POM, Brown, Haskell etc too. Most of the options at 7 are allrounders or 6.5s anyway. I'm not convinced Warburton is any more a fetcher 7 than Robshaw or SOB, if we want a "true 7" which I think isn't necessary anyway, Rennie best fits tge bill but his form has taken a dramatic dive!

What about Steffon Armatage. He is playing alot better at the moment than Warburton and no one seems to mention him.

IF, Gatland is only going to pick players for the Lions if they are playing for their country in their country, and not playing over seas. Then you can forget the likes of Mike Phillips, James Hook, Gethin Jenkins. to name just those 3.

How d'you know? Do you watch Toulon often, or are you just regurgitating again? Try watching a game of rugby for once in your life.

I do watch a game of ruby lot of games actualy. And the last time i watched Sam Warburton he went off injured (again)and the last time i watched Steffo ARMATAGE play he came away with Man of the Match.

And by the way he DID FINISH THE GAME, AND NOT GO OFF WITH A INJURIE. OK

Hi Madge, I'll not pick on you for your spelling, but firstly knock off with the capitals. It makes your post look a bit of a mess.

Secondly, you're being a touch hypocritical going on about Warburton and whether he suffers an injury. You're normally the type to say that it's too early to judge how well players are doing, so his injuries are rather irrelevant until nearer the time. I know you have a slight obsession with our captain and his well being though and you're a bit of an Armitage fan, but their merits don't need to be considered/obsessed over just yet.

I think that if (and that's a big 'if', I am very happy to admit) he has a huge Six Nations campaign, I think that we also have to consider the possibility of Sean Maitland being a surprise Lions bolter for a wing position.

I am just stabbing wildly in the dark but I'm going to guess that may be a controversial thing to say for a number of folks here.

George Carlin wrote:I think that if (and that's a big 'if', I am very happy to admit) he has a huge Six Nations campaign, I think that we also have to consider the possibility of Sean Maitland being a surprise Lions bolter for a wing position.

I am just stabbing wildly in the dark but I'm going to guess that may be a controversial thing to say for a number of folks here.

I think people were annoyed at selecting players who had previously played against the British Lions, then playing for them.

What I don't understand about Maitland is why, if he is Scottish Qualified, is he having visa issues slowing him moving back to his homeland?

1. Corbisiero - tempted to pick Healy, but he'll make an impact off the bench
2. Best - maybe Strauss but he is unproven
3. Cole
4. Gray
5. POC
6. SOB - ahead of Ferris just because he terrorised Australia in the WC last year
7. Warburton - he's got too much class not to be picked
8. Heaslip - just, but needs to up his form, Denton close behind
9. Care
10. Sexton - I feel he is really underrated and I think he could be the star of the tour
11. North
12. Davies
13. Tuilagi - would like to pick BOD but he is getting on
14. Bowe - perhaps Visser
15. Kearney - he should be a shoo in - European Player of the Year and easily Ireland's best player over past year

16. Strauss
17. Healy
18. Evans
19. Ferris
20. Phillips
21. Flood
22. Halfpenny

maestegmafia wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I think that if (and that's a big 'if', I am very happy to admit) he has a huge Six Nations campaign, I think that we also have to consider the possibility of Sean Maitland being a surprise Lions bolter for a wing position.

I am just stabbing wildly in the dark but I'm going to guess that may be a controversial thing to say for a number of folks here.

I think people were annoyed at selecting players who had previously played against the British Lions, then playing for them.

What I don't understand about Maitland is why, if he is Scottish Qualified, is he having visa issues slowing him moving back to his homeland?

I think you might find that theres a difference between the laws of the IRB and the laws of the land.