Your Lions team

First topic message reminder :

This isn't who you think will be selected, but who you would like to see.

So many factors will determine the real selection next summer....

Match fitness
Injuries
Form
Six Nations form
Who's behaving off the pitch
Potential combinations
Currently uncapped players who might have a barnstorming 6N.

Even though Wales won the slam in 2012 it will have absolutely no bearing on summer 2013. We learned that lesson all too well in 2005 when some complete idiot thought that the merits of RWC 2003 would be completely transferable while undermining almost an entire squad of form players who had just won a grand slam.

I would be a twist of irony to see Gatland select a ridiculously large Welsh contingent, but two wrongs don't make a right. I love the lions it's a great tradition and I want to see the best players selected. If England hands down win the 2013 6N then I would actively promote the idea of a English dominated lions XV. What Woodward did was disgusting and it still annoys me to this day. Playing Wilko out of position against one of the best All Black teams ever seen, omitting the form 12 in NH rugby and one of the best wings the world has ever seen. It was a farce beyond belief.

Gatland should be able to raise the Lions a notch or two from 2009. I'm convinced there will be no bias.

If the Lions were picked now & all were fit I would like to see this team.

15. Leigh Halfpenny
14. Alex Cuthbert
13. BOD
12. Manu Tuilagi
11. George North
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Danny Care

8. Jamie Heaslip
7. Sam Warburton
6. Danny Lydiate
5. Alun-wyn Jones
4. POC
3. Adam Jones
2. Rory Best
1. Gethin Jenkins

RubyGuby wrote:Judging individual peformances from players within strong teams and players within poor teams is a complex process. To assume that the player in the strong team is that much better is naive to say the least. You will all have your answers regarding Warburton and the others after the AI's, why not save it till then. Some players are having arm chair rides whilst others are facing a contiinuous physical tide in sides which are not up to competing. You cannot criticise the individual player for that. Saracens make Charlie Hodgson look a strong out half, put him in the Sale team and he'd be a headless chicken - Some are even calling for Hodgson for the Lions - - Laughable

Not sure if that was a response to my comment, but there isn't much to disagree with there, though Hodgson is better than you give him credit for. Saracens do have a fair few good English players in their team though. I was just asking who specifically maestegmafia had in mind when saying that the top performers for English sides haven't necessarily been English, as it doesn't seem that way to me at all this year. Nick Evans, for example, missed both of Quins' opening HC games where Danny Care, Joe Marler, Nick Easter etc were standout performers in each.

15. Kearney
14. Visser
13. Tuilagi
12. Roberts
11. North
10. Sexton
9. Phillips
8. Denton
7. Warburton
6. Ferris
5. O'Connell
4. Gray
3. Jones
2. Ford
1. Jenkins

Whilst im accepting there wont be a raft of Englishmen in this squad...im seriously curious why Dan Cole is being listed by so few...

He for me is one of the best TH's in the world now and in great form. At present he would be my choice over Jones.

In fact contrary to the rest of the team Englands front row is top drawer...and after the AI's and 6n...the Lions front row could very well be an England one.

Geordie - The main ommisions for me looking at these teams are Dan Cole and Tommy Bowe - I think they'll both start in the tests at the moment

Possibly Cole, even Ross but in my opinion that depends on how Adam Jones gets on with injuries.

An on form Adam jones is the best candidate around.

maestegmafia wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:If the Lions were picked now & they were all fit ( as OP stated) it would be dominated by the English & Irish as they are clearly the players in form.

Picking a team now ignoring that will be skewed by favouritism & national bias.

Anyway OP when are we going to see your report on the Regions finances?

Based on the HEC?

Hmm..!

There are plenty of good performers at English and Irish teams but not all of those are necesarily qualified for the British and Irish lions.

To my knowledge we only have 4 non-English players of any note, 1 is injured. Our star performers this season, aside from Botica, are all English. Saracens also have a first choice 23 that is predominantly ( I reckon 16-18 out of 23) EQ, and one of the starters who is not is Scottish anyway. I think you mildly overestimate the number of non-EQ players starting in the AP, and ave missed that there are in fact Enhlish men at non-English clubs getting plaudits in Europe this year. Several in fact

westisbest wrote:1 Jenkins
2 Best
3 Jones
4 Wyn Jones
5 POC
6 SOB
7 Warburton
8 Denton

9 Care
10 Sexton
11 Ashton
12 Roberts
13 Tuilagi
14 Bowe/Visser (see hoe he does next few months).
15 Kearney

just off the top of my head.

things can/will change though in the coming months.

Denton will be very lucky to play for Scotland never mind the Lions such is his lack of form !

As far as I can see with Jones vs Cole at the moment is that Jones is superior in the scrum. It wouldnt surprise me if hes better at lifting too - but he's not exactly mobile . Cole is no mug in the tight and his all round game offers a lot more

15. Halfpenny
14. Visser
13. Hogg
12. Roberts
11. North
10. Sexton
9. Phillips
8. SOB
7. Warburton
6. Ferris
5. O'Connell
4. Gray
3. Cole
2. Hartley
1. Healy

I think Gatland will pick a big team with powerful scrummagers if he thinks Australia are weak there. In that case he would replace Healy with someone like Corbisero.

They'll concentrate on solid set pieces, good defense and play for territory.

First post ive seen with Hogg and Roberts in the centre.

What are your thoughts there?

Hogg looks a very good prospect. I saw him score a few terrific tries against Munster last season, tries out of nothing. He was injured since and playing fullback too sometimes.

Roberts offers a hard running threat and does the basics well. He performs best at international level. Himself and BOD formed a great partnership on the last tour but I'd say BOD might be slowing down a bit these days.

lostinwales wrote:As far as I can see with Jones vs Cole at the moment is that Jones is superior in the scrum. It wouldnt surprise me if hes better at lifting too - but he's not exactly mobile . Cole is no mug in the tight and his all round game offers a lot more

I haven't seen Jones play for a while but if he's better than Cole in the scrum then he's doing extremely well. Cole's probably our only guy who's a dead certainty if fit to be on the plane.

For what it's worth:

1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Gray
5. Charteris
6. ?
7. ?
8. ?
9. Care
10. Sexton
11. Visser
12. Davies
13. Tuilagi
14. North
15. Kearney

I've indulged myself a bit with the all-English front row, but Marler and Cole have been in great form and it's helpful to have an existing unit, as we found out with the Welsh trio in 2009. Back row is the main area of interest. Each position could easily be any one of four or five.

I like Davies a lot so have moved him infield to accomodate Tuilagi.

profitius wrote:Hogg looks a very good prospect. I saw him score a few terrific tries against Munster last season, tries out of nothing. He was injured since and playing fullback too sometimes.

Roberts offers a hard running threat and does the basics well. He performs best at international level. Himself and BOD formed a great partnership on the last tour but I'd say BOD might be slowing down a bit these days.

He often gets on the score sheet, though I thought he was more back three rather than outside centre. I hope a few more of the good scots backs get a decent season under them this year. Hogg, Jones, Ansbro, as well as Visser.

I think Tupiric has been far better than Warburton this season. He's hardly going to be selected ahead of Warbs though (captain) but I think he's absolute class.

Mickado wrote:I think Tupiric has been far better than Warburton this season. He's hardly going to be selected ahead of Warbs though (captain) but I think he's absolute class.

Spot on Mickado, its creating a problem for Wales with Warburton being the captain - Tips could emerge as our number 1 choice in the AI's but it's all about getting the balance right and there are so many different options - here's mine for what its worth and we all know Gats likes 'em big:

15 - Halfpenny
14 - North
13 - Roberts
12 - Tuilagi
11 - Bowe
10 - Sexton
9 - Care
8 - Falatau
7 - Tipuric
6 - Ferris
5 - Gray
4 - Ian Evans
3 - Jenkins
2 - Best
1 - Cole


I actually think we are spoiled for choice and could pick 2 strong sides of equal quality at the moment

RubyGuby wrote:

Mickado wrote:I think Tupiric has been far better than Warburton this season. He's hardly going to be selected ahead of Warbs though (captain) but I think he's absolute class.

Spot on Mickado, its creating a problem for Wales with Warburton being the captain - Tips could emerge as our number 1 choice in the AI's but it's all about getting the balance right and there are so many different options - here's mine for what its worth and we all know Gats likes 'em big:

15 - Halfpenny
14 - North
13 - Roberts
12 - Tuilagi
11 - Bowe
10 - Sexton
9 - Care
8 - Falatau
7 - Tipuric
6 - Ferris
5 - Gray
4 - Ian Evans
3 - Jenkins
2 - Best
1 - Cole


I actually think we are spoiled for choice and could pick 2 strong sides of equal quality at the moment

Tuilagi and Roberts at centre. That's a very direct combo...!

Would we even need wingers? Because it would be unlikely they would ever get the ball.

Gatland does certainly like to pick a big backline but remember that game the French picked a massive backline against the Aussies and got nearly 60 points put on them? I don’t think going big for the sake of it is the best option.

For what it’s worth here’s the team I think will be best equipped to beat them come next year.

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Cole
4. Charteris
5. POC
6. Ferris
7. Tupuric
8. Felatau
9. Care
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Davies
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Ford
17. Jenkins
18. A. Jones
19. Gray
20. SOB
21. Phillips
22. Flood
23. Halfpenny

Accidental Repeat post

Mickado - 8 Irishmen in a team that's going backwards does not fill me with confidence - Gats like 'em big and agile by the way not just big like the Basterauds of this world

I agree with you Maesteg on the centre pairing and Foxy Davies for me is possibly the best option at the moment, I just know Gats likes his beef and I think he will not want to throw the ball out too much but bang it up the middle - suck the defence in until the gaps appear. That's what Roberts and Tuilagi would suit. Only issue for me would be Tuilagis defence as he's poor against someone with guile.

RubyGuby wrote:Mickado - 8 Irishmen in a team that's going backwards does not fill me with confidence - Gats like 'em big and agile by the way not just big like the Basterauds of this world

I don't get it, you think the Lions would be going backwards or you're implying Ireland are going backwards?

I'm implying that Ireland are on a downward curve

I think we’re as bad as we’re going to get (touch wood), but you have to lay a lot of the blame for that at the door of our coaches. Are you saying Healy isn’t a worthy Lion? Is Sexton not the best 10 available? Has Kearney become half the player since the last tour? BOD and POC aside (because they’re not getting any younger) I don’t think any of the calls I’ve made are outrageous, maybe some of them are marginal (Halfpenny over Kearney) but you do watch club rugby? Did you see Halfpenny and Roberts last week? You can still put them in a Lions team with a straight face?

RubyGuby wrote:I agree with you Maesteg on the centre pairing and Foxy Davies for me is possibly the best option at the moment, I just know Gats likes his beef and I think he will not want to throw the ball out too much but bang it up the middle - suck the defence in until the gaps appear. That's what Roberts and Tuilagi would suit. Only issue for me would be Tuilagis defence as he's poor against someone with guile.

I don't think he will taking any lessons from Roberts though do you?

Mickado wrote:I think we’re as bad as we’re going to get (touch wood), but you have to lay a lot of the blame for that at the door of our coaches. Are you saying Healy isn’t a worthy Lion? Is Sexton not the best 10 available? Has Kearney become half the player since the last tour? BOD and POC aside (because they’re not getting any younger) I don’t think any of the calls I’ve made are outrageous, maybe some of them are marginal (Halfpenny over Kearney) but you do watch club rugby? Did you see Halfpenny and Roberts last week? You can still put them in a Lions team with a straight face?

Healy, Sexton (in a league of his own as a 10 at the moment) and Kearney are top class as is Bowe, Best and Ferris. For Ireland Mickado I think you are a prop short; I now think you have a poor second row and your back row unit remains unbalanced, you have no scrum half of consistent quality and your midfield is in a bit of disarray. I don't think you can put all that on Kidney in all honesty. For me its just going to be a difficult transition period following the golden generation's gradual departure. I may well be wrong but that is how I see it mate.

lostinwales wrote:As far as I can see with Jones vs Cole at the moment is that Jones is superior in the scrum. It wouldnt surprise me if hes better at lifting too - but he's not exactly mobile . Cole is no mug in the tight and his all round game offers a lot more

Really?

Cole for me is now the complete prop...his scrummaging is immense, his groundwork is top drawer...and he even does a bit of carrying once in a while. He is our only truly world class player...and he is better than Jones.

I think Healy will have that LH spot...but come the test games next year...Marler could be pushing him close.

As i said...whilst the rest of our team is hit and miss.....our front row options are serious now...they are top class....

1) For Ireland Mickado I think you are a prop short;
2) I now think you have a poor second row
3) and your back row unit remains unbalanced,
4) you have no scrum half of consistent quality
5) and your midfield is in a bit of disarray

Appreciate your input, allow me to respond.

1) Healy is quality, Ross is solid and dependable, but agree we have no TH backup who is gaining meaningful gametime, Fitzpatrick can't stay fit and we've parachuted Michael Bent straight into the national squad, he hadn't even set foot in Ireland before last weekend. I only picked one Irish prop though
2) I'm not sure I'd say our second row is "poor", POC is just back from injury and is in good form, DOC is much maligned by Irish fans, but to be fair to him, if he starts the AI's nobody can complain too much, he's actually on decent form too. But Kidney doesn't pick on form, he picks POC and DOC when they're both fit.
3) The backrow balance cannot be addressed when Kidney insists on playing a 6 (who's been playing at 8) at 7.
4) Agree that scrum half is an area of concern for Ireland, Sexton and Murray have not been able to gel into a settled partnership, however Reddan and Sexton have been an exceptional partnership in European club rugby and have only averaged 8 mins of gametime together for Ireland despite having both been picked in over 30 match day squads. This is another issue with Kidney.
5) Our midfield is in disarray, an over reliance on BOD and Darcy has left us with precious little options in that position.

Look, the players have to take some responsibility for how things have gone, but we saw Ulster, Munster and Leinster all make the HC knockouts last year, we saw Munster and Leinster make the Pro12 playoffs, we know we have the players, we know something is missing. It's a competant coaching ticket.

I don't think Ireland's locks are poor, Ryan and POCis as good a combo as any

I do remember there being some comments from Irish fans that they weren't playing well recently though.

Read the Irish Autumn Squad thread, you'll see plenty of it!

We have good players, we don't play well, that's our problem.

I don't think we're disagreeing on too much Mickado although I think its difficult to draw too many paralells from provinces to international teams as there are too many confounding variables involved. Just look at how relatively poor our regions are but I think we have a decent international unit - conversley the Irish provinces are the standard bearers in europe. The only thing we probably disagree on is the irish 2nd row. Once a world class boiler house now for me an area of weakness. That's just my view however and like I said it may well be wrong.

Which 3 scrum half's would you bring to Austrailia ?

It's an odd situation, because no one seems to really have been putting their hands up at SH! I think the player showing the most form has to be Care.

Care for me has to travel.
I can see Phillips going, but I am not his biggest fan. I think he can very good at times, but a little inconsistent and hot-headed..
Then a fight out between Youngs, Cusiter, the young Welsh lad that was left out of the Welsh squad.....can't for the life of me remember his name? Jonny Evans??

Phillips hasn't been in the best of form but he is a big game player and offers something different to any other No9 in the equation but his service is sooooooo slow.

I think he will travel but as hs been mentioned there is no one really standing out at the moment as 1st choice.

Its a Weak position for the lions my personal choice would be:
1st Choice : Ben Youngs (consistency)
2nd Choice: Conor Murray (He has a phillips style of play ,good defence)
3rd Choice : Danny Care (Great form at the moment but needs to keep it up)

owenh32 wrote:Which 3 scrum half's would you bring to Austrailia ?

Paul Marshall

Mike Phillips

Danny Care

bluestonevedder wrote:It's an odd situation, because no one seems to really have been putting their hands up at SH! I think the player showing the most form has to be Care.

Watch Ulsters Paul Marshall he is fantastic, best scrum half around.

bluestonevedder wrote:The young Welsh lad that was left out of the Welsh squad.....can't for the life of me remember his name? Jonny Evans??

Wales have five youngsters who are all vying to be Mike Phillips shadow

Rhys Webb Ospreys
Tavis Knoyle Scarlets
Gareth Davies Scarlets
Jon Evans Dragons
Lloyd Williams Blues

Below them are some superb players.

Tom Habberfield Ospreys/Bridgend
Rhodri Williams Scarlets/Llandovery

Cheers Maesteg. I've heard very good things about Marshall, but haven't seen him play yet.

Watched the Blues recently, and Lloyd Williams had a shocker. I like Webb, and I like KNoyle, but are they on form at the moment?

As far as scrum halves go, the starter is difficult but if Ben Youngs isn't on the plane to Australia then the happiest people on that day will be the Australians. If he is fully fit then he has already proved he can rip the Australians apart, he has done it the last 3 times he has played them, including in their own back yard and has outplayed Genia at the same time. Form is great to have but so is the knowledge and experience of going down to Australia and beating them and that isn't something that the other scrum halves have done.

bluestonevedder wrote:Cheers Maesteg. I've heard very good things about Marshall, but haven't seen him play yet.

Watched the Blues recently, and Lloyd Williams had a shocker. I like Webb, and I like KNoyle, but are they on form at the moment?

Williams, Webb and Knoyle get some awful press on these boards from the same group of posters. To be fair to the players I would say their form has been mixed. Good and bad...! Davies and Evans have been good but are inexperienced.

The game last weekend vs Leinster you can't blame Williams, the whole team were awful. Defence more than anything else.

I don't see any of them making the lions tour unless they consistently hit their best form week in week out.

Marshall at the moment would be my Lions first choice, he's that good.

maestegmafia wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:It's an odd situation, because no one seems to really have been putting their hands up at SH! I think the player showing the most form has to be Care.

Watch Ulsters Paul Marshall he is fantastic, best scrum half around.

Marshall will be flattered by the show of support I'm sure but you will probably struggle to find even an Ulster fan who'd agree with that...... hopefully he'll get a chance with Ireland (I doubt it) and if so maybe but he's a long way off right now I'd say.

Can't see past Care, Youngs, Murray and Phillips.... Reddan maybe....

rodders wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:It's an odd situation, because no one seems to really have been putting their hands up at SH! I think the player showing the most form has to be Care.

Watch Ulsters Paul Marshall he is fantastic, best scrum half around.

Marshall will be flattered by the show of support I'm sure but you will probably struggle to find even an Ulster fan who'd agree with that...... hopefully he'll get a chance with Ireland (I doubt it) and if so maybe but he's a long way off right now I'd say.

Can't see past Care, Youngs, Murray and Phillips.... Reddan maybe....

Marshall is a class apart Reddan and Murray, great to see him in the Ireland squad, just hope Kidney picks him, he needs the chance soon.

I would be surprised to hear that Ulster fans don't rate him? I know you have Peinaar too but Marshall is in fine form and a clever player with a full skill set.

I like Marshall actually, I think he's pretty underrated, even in Ulster.. obviously he's behind Pienaar for a starting spot.

He has been very erratic in the past with his play but think he'd improved a lot in the past 2 seasons. However his reputation for howlers precedes him a bit.

He's lightning of the mark though, has decent service, box kicks very well and is a good tackler for a little guy. When he does the basics well, and he has lately, he is a good player for sure.

A very long shot for the Lions though unless Gatland is a fan.

rodders wrote:I like Marshall actually, I think he's pretty underrated, even in Ulster.. obviously he's behind Pienaar for a starting spot.

He has been very erratic in the past with his play but think he'd improved a lot in the past 2 seasons. However his reputation for howlers precedes him a bit.

He's lightning of the mark though, has decent service, box kicks very well and is a good tackler for a little guy. When he does the basics well, and he has lately, he is a good player for sure.

A very long shot for the Lions though unless Gatland is a fan.

This season without living in Pienaars shadow, I rate Pienaar and Genia as the best in the business at the moment, he has had time to prove himself.

I didn't see much of him last year, though what I did he looked good.

I think his earning justified praise.

He's been released back to Ulster and will play on Friday, probably alongside Pienaar. There is more rotation this year with the new coach so hopefully he will see more gametime and keep performing.

Glad to see he's getting a bit of recognition but Murray is nailed on for Ireland with Reddan clear second choice.

owenh32 wrote:Its a Weak position for the lions my personal choice would be:
1st Choice : Ben Youngs (consistency)
2nd Choice: Conor Murray (He has a phillips style of play ,good defence)
3rd Choice : Danny Care (Great form at the moment but needs to keep it up)

Eh?

At his best Youngs is probably the best scrumhalf I have seen playing for England in the last 20 years. Dawson was probably smarter - very important in that position buts thats about it. Hes had a crap time with injuries and hasnt kicked on as might have been hoped because of that, but anything like a decent injury free season and he'll be on the plane

I don't deny that he is an excellent player, but putting consistency down as his calling card is a little odd and that has been what he has been lacking, partially due to being mucked around and injuries.

Personally I rated Ellis as the best English scrum half I have seen but we never got to keep him

rodders wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:It's an odd situation, because no one seems to really have been putting their hands up at SH! I think the player showing the most form has to be Care.

Watch Ulsters Paul Marshall he is fantastic, best scrum half around.

Marshall will be flattered by the show of support I'm sure but you will probably struggle to find even an Ulster fan who'd agree with that...... hopefully he'll get a chance with Ireland (I doubt it) and if so maybe but he's a long way off right now I'd say.

Can't see past Care, Youngs, Murray and Phillips.... Reddan maybe....

I cannot see Marshall getting on that plane . 3rd choice Irish scrumhalf is too far down the rankings .

owenh32 wrote: I cannot see Marshall getting on that plane . 3rd choice Irish scrumhalf is too far down the rankings .

I don't see the Irish Scrum halves in rank order. In my opinion Marshall is their best option. Murray and Reddan are not in form. Marshall is.