Your Lions team

First topic message reminder :

This isn't who you think will be selected, but who you would like to see.

So many factors will determine the real selection next summer....

Match fitness
Injuries
Form
Six Nations form
Who's behaving off the pitch
Potential combinations
Currently uncapped players who might have a barnstorming 6N.

Even though Wales won the slam in 2012 it will have absolutely no bearing on summer 2013. We learned that lesson all too well in 2005 when some complete idiot thought that the merits of RWC 2003 would be completely transferable while undermining almost an entire squad of form players who had just won a grand slam.

I would be a twist of irony to see Gatland select a ridiculously large Welsh contingent, but two wrongs don't make a right. I love the lions it's a great tradition and I want to see the best players selected. If England hands down win the 2013 6N then I would actively promote the idea of a English dominated lions XV. What Woodward did was disgusting and it still annoys me to this day. Playing Wilko out of position against one of the best All Black teams ever seen, omitting the form 12 in NH rugby and one of the best wings the world has ever seen. It was a farce beyond belief.

Gatland should be able to raise the Lions a notch or two from 2009. I'm convinced there will be no bias.

If the Lions were picked now & all were fit I would like to see this team.

15. Leigh Halfpenny
14. Alex Cuthbert
13. BOD
12. Manu Tuilagi
11. George North
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Danny Care

8. Jamie Heaslip
7. Sam Warburton
6. Danny Lydiate
5. Alun-wyn Jones
4. POC
3. Adam Jones
2. Rory Best
1. Gethin Jenkins

aucklandlaurie wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I think that if (and that's a big 'if', I am very happy to admit) he has a huge Six Nations campaign, I think that we also have to consider the possibility of Sean Maitland being a surprise Lions bolter for a wing position.

I am just stabbing wildly in the dark but I'm going to guess that may be a controversial thing to say for a number of folks here.

I think people were annoyed at selecting players who had previously played against the British Lions, then playing for them.

What I don't understand about Maitland is why, if he is Scottish Qualified, is he having visa issues slowing him moving back to his homeland?

I think you might find that theres a difference between the laws of the IRB and the laws of the land.

I'm sorry mate, but I still don't get it, he qualifies through a second generation relative and thus is entitled to a british passport is he not?

If he sees himself as a passionate Scot, and prospective lion, not an Antipodeans not good enough for his own nation, one would think he would have a British passport?

I guess you would presume that his Scottishness was his reason to not accept any previous calls to the All Blacks?

Has he actually ever visited Scotland?

maestegmafia wrote:Has he actually ever visited Scotland?

Wait just a minute...

[consults Encyclopaedia Maitlandica]

...ummm, I don't know, but I would assume so. He has already scored two tries at Twickenham.

IanBru wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Has he actually ever visited Scotland?

Wait just a minute...

[consults Encyclopaedia Maitlandica]

...ummm, I don't know, but I would assume so. He has already scored two tries at Twickenham.

So what's the visa issue then mate?

maestegmafia wrote:So what's the visa issue then mate?

He is a citizen of New Zealand, meaning that he doesn't have an automatic right to work or reside in the United Kingdom.

Maesteg

Coutries control the issuing of work visas to protect job for their locals, however if you have a skill which is very rare in a country, then there will be a demand for that skill and the issuing of a work visa is just a matter of course.

When Warren Gatland applied for his job coaching wales he got a visa real easy, because not only was their a dire shortage of competent coaches but no one knew much about rugby either.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Maesteg

Coutries control the issuing of work visas to protect job for their locals, however if you have a skill which is very rare in a country, then there will be a demand for that skill and the issuing of a work visa is just a matter of course.

When Warren Gatland applied for his job coaching wales he got a visa real easy, because not only was their a dire shortage of competent coaches but no one knew much about rugby either.

Jesus mate that was a cheap line...!


Re Maitland, it said "The 24-year-old Canterbury man, equally adept on the wing or at full-back, is one of the most highly rated outside backs in Super Rugby, and qualifies to play for Scotland courtesy of both his paternal Grandparents who were born in Glasgow."

Therefor he must be entitled to British Citizenship.


http://www.glasgowwarriors.org/news/5166-crusaders-star-maitland-joins-warrior-nation

maestegmafia wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I think that if (and that's a big 'if', I am very happy to admit) he has a huge Six Nations campaign, I think that we also have to consider the possibility of Sean Maitland being a surprise Lions bolter for a wing position.

I am just stabbing wildly in the dark but I'm going to guess that may be a controversial thing to say for a number of folks here.

I think people were annoyed at selecting players who had previously played against the British Lions, then playing for them.

What I don't understand about Maitland is why, if he is Scottish Qualified, is he having visa issues slowing him moving back to his homeland?

I think you might find that theres a difference between the laws of the IRB and the laws of the land.

I'm sorry mate, but I still don't get it, he qualifies through a second generation relative and thus is entitled to a british passport is he not?

If he sees himself as a passionate Scot, and prospective lion, not an Antipodeans not good enough for his own nation, one would think he would have a British passport?

I guess you would presume that his Scottishness was his reason to not accept any previous calls to the All Blacks?

Has he actually ever visited Scotland?

Maesteg - what were your views on Flutey playing for the Lions last time?

It was worth it. He did amazingly well to set up Williams 2nd try.

Did you make sure to check the status of his passport before you allowed yourself to enjoy that tremendous assist, Roger?

The likes of Flutey playing for the Lions make a completely mockery of it IMO - British and Irish Lions giving it away so a chap can play for them against his own country - What's the point in the long run

George Carlin wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

George Carlin wrote:I think that if (and that's a big 'if', I am very happy to admit) he has a huge Six Nations campaign, I think that we also have to consider the possibility of Sean Maitland being a surprise Lions bolter for a wing position.

I am just stabbing wildly in the dark but I'm going to guess that may be a controversial thing to say for a number of folks here.

I think people were annoyed at selecting players who had previously played against the British Lions, then playing for them.

What I don't understand about Maitland is why, if he is Scottish Qualified, is he having visa issues slowing him moving back to his homeland?

I think you might find that theres a difference between the laws of the IRB and the laws of the land.

I'm sorry mate, but I still don't get it, he qualifies through a second generation relative and thus is entitled to a british passport is he not?

If he sees himself as a passionate Scot, and prospective lion, not an Antipodeans not good enough for his own nation, one would think he would have a British passport?

I guess you would presume that his Scottishness was his reason to not accept any previous calls to the All Blacks?

Has he actually ever visited Scotland?

Maesteg - what were your views on Flutey playing for the Lions last time?

Flutey should not have been selected for the lions.

Why not?

At the time he was a very good player, alright he wasn't a superstar but for England he was a solid performer who could win a game.

HERSH wrote:Why not?

At the time he was a very good player, alright he wasn't a superstar but for England he was a solid performer who could win a game.

IanBru wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:So what's the visa issue then mate?

He is a citizen of New Zealand, meaning that he doesn't have an automatic right to work or reside in the United Kingdom.

Indeed. Normally if you're an NZer with UK born grandparents you have to apply for an ancestry visa and live in the UK for at least 6 years before qualifying for a passport. And the normal ancestry visa bans people from doing a number of things including (a) drawing benefits and (b) playing professional sport (I have a couple of mates who had to switch rugby clubs when their initial London club was promoted to a semi-pro level - even though they were staying amateur). To get a professional sport work visa you have to tick a lot of other boxes - Stephen Donald had issues with his work permit initially as he'd not played a test in 18 months when he applied.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

IanBru wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:So what's the visa issue then mate?

He is a citizen of New Zealand, meaning that he doesn't have an automatic right to work or reside in the United Kingdom.

Indeed. Normally if you're an NZer with UK born grandparents you have to apply for an ancestry visa and live in the UK for at least 6 years before qualifying for a passport. And the normal ancestry visa bans people from doing a number of things including (a) drawing benefits and (b) playing professional sport (I have a couple of mates who had to switch rugby clubs when their initial London club was promoted to a semi-pro level - even though they were staying amateur). To get a professional sport work visa you have to tick a lot of other boxes - Stephen Donald had issues with his work permit initially as he'd not played a test in 18 months when he applied.

Cheers for the incite Pete.

By the sounds of it Maitland might walk straight into the Glasgow back three but he might not make the 2013 six nations or Lions tour.

maestegmafia wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

IanBru wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:So what's the visa issue then mate?

He is a citizen of New Zealand, meaning that he doesn't have an automatic right to work or reside in the United Kingdom.

Indeed. Normally if you're an NZer with UK born grandparents you have to apply for an ancestry visa and live in the UK for at least 6 years before qualifying for a passport. And the normal ancestry visa bans people from doing a number of things including (a) drawing benefits and (b) playing professional sport (I have a couple of mates who had to switch rugby clubs when their initial London club was promoted to a semi-pro level - even though they were staying amateur). To get a professional sport work visa you have to tick a lot of other boxes - Stephen Donald had issues with his work permit initially as he'd not played a test in 18 months when he applied.

Cheers for the incite Pete.

By the sounds of it Maitland might walk straight into the Glasgow back three but he might not make the 2013 six nations or Lions tour.

It could go the other way around too

A Scottish cap would get him in under the "elite sportsperson" category

maestegmafia wrote:By the sounds of it Maitland might walk straight into the Glasgow back three but he might not make the 2013 six nations or Lions tour.

Maitland wouldn't need British citizenship to play for Scotland so you could, technically, see him turn out in navy blue this autumn.

Oh good, another thread about who should and should not play for the Lions with regard to place of birth.

RubyGuby wrote:The likes of Flutey playing for the Lions make a completely mockery of it IMO - British and Irish Lions giving it away so a chap can play for them against his own country - What's the point in the long run

The answer is, there is no point - it would seem to be contrary to every principle the original Lions were created for. At the current rate of adoption the day may not be too far off when the "Lions" are predominately made up of players who originate from south of the equator but happen to have convenient ancestry or residency qualifications.

Originally the Lions were selected from the four home Test playing nations. When that increased to five and then six nations the Lions ahould have been extended to include French and Italian players. That would have been in keeping with the traditional inclusive spirit of rugby, and it is high time this calumny was rectified.

Do those "traditionalists" who abhor change and can't see beyond the amalgamation of the original four teams, also insist the players be born in those countries and play exclusively in them? Perhaps they should also travel by steamship on five month tours and definitely have no substitutes bench?

Rather than cherry pick what parts of tradition are worth maintaining it would be considerably less disingenuous to create a "European Lions" along the lines of the Ryder Cup and include all European players in the selection pool. That wouldn't exclude plastic Lions but at least the squad would honestly represent European rugby.

You mean the "British and Irish Lions" should now be open to all players from Europe??

Totally disagree. I must be a "traditionalist who adhors change".

I also can't see the day coming when the British and Irish Lions are "predominantly made up of players who originate from south of the equator".

My genuine believe is that ultimately the IRB will tighten the residency requirements for international rugby tourists, and whilst that would arguably harm the prospects of Scottish rugby, I'd completely support that, and I suspect most rugby fans would agree. Notwithstanding that, I think you overstate the risk.

It's not up to the Lions selectors to worry about international eligibility - if you're eligible for a GB&I team you're eligible for the Lions, just as if you're eligible for a national side the coach is within his rights (indeed, if you're any good, he's obliged) to consider you for selection! You can't expect selectors to go around making ethical decisions on a case-by-case basis - it doesn't sit right with me that Flutey played for England or the Lions, but as the second best Lions eligible 12 at the time (the best eligible 12 for England), McGeechan and Johnson wouldn't have been doing their jobs properly if they didn't select him.

It's the IRB that need to take action on this. All anger and frustration should be directed in their direction, and not towards selectors or players.

Considering the shoulder injury Flutey picked up on Lions duty and the path of his subsequent career you could say it would have been better for England if he had not have gone. He did good while he was in one piece though