2013 Lions Squad Announcement - Live updates & Discussion

First topic message reminder :

I'm at work with no access to TV/Radio for the big annoucement. I'd be gretful if some of my 606v2 brethern could provide updates as names are announced for the tour.

Please don't turn this into a debate about who should/shouldn't be on tour until after all the names are up, to keep the page clean for others to see the names of the sqaud.

Thanking you in advance

2103 British & Irish Lions Tour Sqaud:

Cian Healy
Tom Youngs
Richard Hibbard
Dylan Hartley
Dan Cole
Adam Jones
Matt Stevens
Mako Vunipola
Richie Gray
Alun Wyn Jones
Paul O’Connell
Geoff Parling
Tom Croft
Sean O’Brien
Justin Tipuric
Toby Faletau
Sam Warburton (C)
Ben Youngs
Mike Phillips
Owen Farrell
George North
Jamie Roberts
Brian O’Driscoll
Manu Tuilagi
Alex Cuthbert
Leigh Halfpenny
Conor Murray
Rob Kearney
Ian Evans
Gethin Jenkins
Dan Lydiate
Jamie Heaslip
Johnathan Sexton
Jonathan Davies
Tommy Bowe
Stuart Hogg
Sean Maitland

Wales: 15
England: 10
Ireland: 9
Scotland: 3

beshocked wrote:Funny I don't hear any Welsh questioning Jenkins or Lydiate.

Not surprised that Brown missed out. He's not Welsh,Irish,English or a media darling. Plus playing for the most unfashionable club around doesn't help either.

Does make me chuckle that Stevens,Vunipola and Farrell have caused so much outrage.

Stevens would be 3rd choice tight head anyway behind Cole and A.Jones. What other 3s have done enough to warrant selection?

Vunipola will also be 3rd choice loosehead. It was a realistic 50/50 with Grant for that last slot. Plus Vunipola has had a very good season even if he does play for an unfashionable club.

Farrell is 2nd choice behind Sexton at fly half. It's again debatable but he's still done a lot this season even he is derided by most people on these forums.

At least these players have shown good form over a season (not every game admittedly) but more so than Lydiate for example.

Good points raised there BS regarding the front rowers. Farrell on current form is a surprise though. He isn't the best flyhalf At Saracens, let alone England or the lions.

He shows glimpses of ability and his goal kicking is usually flawless but Biggar has shown far more consistency, particularly when under pressure.

No surprise to see 15 back to back champs in the squad.

No Ashton then ? Proven tryscorer vs the Aussies.

Telegraph has done a breakdwon of all the players, in a little picture montage. The image they've got of Sean O'Brien is actually a picture of Ferris. DEAR GOD JOURNOS.

maestegmafia wrote:

beshocked wrote:Funny I don't hear any Welsh questioning Jenkins or Lydiate.

Not surprised that Brown missed out. He's not Welsh,Irish,English or a media darling. Plus playing for the most unfashionable club around doesn't help either.

Does make me chuckle that Stevens,Vunipola and Farrell have caused so much outrage.

Stevens would be 3rd choice tight head anyway behind Cole and A.Jones. What other 3s have done enough to warrant selection?

Vunipola will also be 3rd choice loosehead. It was a realistic 50/50 with Grant for that last slot. Plus Vunipola has had a very good season even if he does play for an unfashionable club.

Farrell is 2nd choice behind Sexton at fly half. It's again debatable but he's still done a lot this season even he is derided by most people on these forums.

At least these players have shown good form over a season (not every game admittedly) but more so than Lydiate for example.

Good points raised there BS regarding the front rowers. Farrell on current form is a surprise though. He isn't the best flyhalf At Saracens, let alone England or the lions.

He shows glimpses of ability and his goal kicking is usually flawless but Biggar has shown far more consistency, particularly when under pressure.

Maestegmafia depends what you base Lion's selection on.

I presume you see nothing wrong with picking Lydiate who has had virtually no game time this season over the likes of Wood,Brown and Robshaw and covers less positions

I could say to you that Jenkins isn't even the best loosehead at his club. Not getting much gametime.

I wouldn't say Biggar has shown more consistency. What has he done since the 6 nations? Has Biggar beaten the ABs? At least Farrell Jr has a SH scalp under his belt. Biggar can't even beat Samoa or Fiji!


Would you want Charlie Hodgson on the Lions if you don't think Farrell is good enough?

mikey_philVIII wrote:Because Youngs and Hibbard are too similar. Go back and look at Lions threads and you will see I was selecting Hartley all along. Why? Because he's the only one that can throw. I suspect Gatland has been following my blogs for a while .

Personally don't think Hibbard and youngs are anything like each other. Youngs is a converted centre with more pace and better hands. His carrying is pretty top notch. His only downside is sometimes his line out throwing.

nathan wrote:

mikey_philVIII wrote:Because Youngs and Hibbard are too similar. Go back and look at Lions threads and you will see I was selecting Hartley all along. Why? Because he's the only one that can throw. I suspect Gatland has been following my blogs for a while .

Personally don't think Hibbard and youngs are anything like each other. Youngs is a converted centre with more pace and better hands. His carrying is pretty top notch. His only downside is sometimes his line out throwing.

Agree. If T.Youngs can sort out his erratic throwing he'll be a real class act.

beshocked wrote:

nathan wrote:

mikey_philVIII wrote:Because Youngs and Hibbard are too similar. Go back and look at Lions threads and you will see I was selecting Hartley all along. Why? Because he's the only one that can throw. I suspect Gatland has been following my blogs for a while .

Personally don't think Hibbard and youngs are anything like each other. Youngs is a converted centre with more pace and better hands. His carrying is pretty top notch. His only downside is sometimes his line out throwing.

Agree. If T.Youngs can sort out his erratic throwing he'll be a real class act.

In Australia we are all expecting a running 'carrying' type of rugby, in firm running conditions, so well suited to Youngs style.

beshocked wrote:Has Biggar beaten the ABs? At least Farrell Jr has a SH scalp under his belt. Biggar can't even beat Samoa or Fiji!

Firstly, I know it's shorthand but it can sometimes be too stridently put - and that is, no one player beats anyone - they need the help of their team...even a kicker who kicks all his kicks and scores all a team's points - he needs the team to give him the opportunities.

So Biggar hasn't beaten the ABs. And Farrell did beat the ABs with the help of a full team behind him. But Biggar was part of a team that beat the team that beat the ABs Gotta be a few points for that one, no?

beshocked wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

beshocked wrote:Funny I don't hear any Welsh questioning Jenkins or Lydiate.

Not surprised that Brown missed out. He's not Welsh,Irish,English or a media darling. Plus playing for the most unfashionable club around doesn't help either.

Does make me chuckle that Stevens,Vunipola and Farrell have caused so much outrage.

Stevens would be 3rd choice tight head anyway behind Cole and A.Jones. What other 3s have done enough to warrant selection?

Vunipola will also be 3rd choice loosehead. It was a realistic 50/50 with Grant for that last slot. Plus Vunipola has had a very good season even if he does play for an unfashionable club.

Farrell is 2nd choice behind Sexton at fly half. It's again debatable but he's still done a lot this season even he is derided by most people on these forums.

At least these players have shown good form over a season (not every game admittedly) but more so than Lydiate for example.

Good points raised there BS regarding the front rowers. Farrell on current form is a surprise though. He isn't the best flyhalf At Saracens, let alone England or the lions.

He shows glimpses of ability and his goal kicking is usually flawless but Biggar has shown far more consistency, particularly when under pressure.

Maestegmafia depends what you base Lion's selection on.

I presume you see nothing wrong with picking Lydiate who has had virtually no game time this season over the likes of Wood,Brown and Robshaw and covers less positions

I could say to you that Jenkins isn't even the best loosehead at his club. Not getting much gametime.

I wouldn't say Biggar has shown more consistency. What has he done since the 6 nations? Has Biggar beaten the ABs? At least Farrell Jr has a SH scalp under his belt. Biggar can't even beat Samoa or Fiji!


Would you want Charlie Hodgson on the Lions if you don't think Farrell is good enough?

Didn't realise Biggar took on Fiji and Samoa by himself. What's the use in the scalp? Farrell has choked on numerous occasions. He lost to an average Wales 30-3 going by your view.

So one eyed its unbelievable.

tigertattie wrote:I just dont get the double standards. For Gatland to say he is going to be picking on form and then do the following is mindboggling

Vainupulu picked over Grant???
Matt Steves picked over Grant???
Lydiate picked over Brown/Robshaw???
Croft picked over Brown/Robshaw???
Youngs picked over Best??? (I'd even have picked Ford over Youngs, and Ford has been knickers this year)

Wales may well have been 2013 6N's champs but they are over-represented imo. It smacks of jobs for the boys. It just shows that the lions coach (or selectors) should not be the head coach of one of the home nations!

It would seem gatland is going for size and will be looking to smash through the ozzies. Whether or not this is the right tactic will soon be discovered.

I'll still watch the Lions but I'll not really put much heart into it

2005 all over again huh

I'm enjoying all the Musketeer stuff I'm seeing on the threads since the announcement.

As I'll be supporting the Wallabies, I have to say I think this Lions squad is extremely beatable. Mainly due to the centres selected.

Roberts, Davies, Tuilagi and BOD

Not much creativity there really, apart from BOD who is not exactly a spring chicken.

I reckon Wallabies could have a backline of

9. Genia
10. Cooper or Lealiifano
11. Ioane or Folau
12. Tapuai or McCabe
13. Kuridrani or AAC
14. JOC, Speight or Honeybadger
15. Mogg or Beale (If he finds some better form coming back from his ban)

Head to head, I think Wallabies win it by a mile. Gatland in my view has selected a big, physical, but ultimately predictable team. McCabe and co can handle the threat of Tuilagi, Roberts or Davies.

3-0 or 2-1 to Wallabies if you ask me.

mikey_philVIII wrote:

beshocked wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

beshocked wrote:Funny I don't hear any Welsh questioning Jenkins or Lydiate.

Not surprised that Brown missed out. He's not Welsh,Irish,English or a media darling. Plus playing for the most unfashionable club around doesn't help either.

Does make me chuckle that Stevens,Vunipola and Farrell have caused so much outrage.

Stevens would be 3rd choice tight head anyway behind Cole and A.Jones. What other 3s have done enough to warrant selection?

Vunipola will also be 3rd choice loosehead. It was a realistic 50/50 with Grant for that last slot. Plus Vunipola has had a very good season even if he does play for an unfashionable club.

Farrell is 2nd choice behind Sexton at fly half. It's again debatable but he's still done a lot this season even he is derided by most people on these forums.

At least these players have shown good form over a season (not every game admittedly) but more so than Lydiate for example.

Good points raised there BS regarding the front rowers. Farrell on current form is a surprise though. He isn't the best flyhalf At Saracens, let alone England or the lions.

He shows glimpses of ability and his goal kicking is usually flawless but Biggar has shown far more consistency, particularly when under pressure.

Maestegmafia depends what you base Lion's selection on.

I presume you see nothing wrong with picking Lydiate who has had virtually no game time this season over the likes of Wood,Brown and Robshaw and covers less positions

I could say to you that Jenkins isn't even the best loosehead at his club. Not getting much gametime.

I wouldn't say Biggar has shown more consistency. What has he done since the 6 nations? Has Biggar beaten the ABs? At least Farrell Jr has a SH scalp under his belt. Biggar can't even beat Samoa or Fiji!


Would you want Charlie Hodgson on the Lions if you don't think Farrell is good enough?

Didn't realise Biggar took on Fiji and Samoa by himself. What's the use in the scalp? Farrell has choked on numerous occasions. He lost to an average Wales 30-3 going by your view.

So one eyed its unbelievable.

An average Welsh side? Going by the amount of hype surrounding the Welsh side you would think they were the no 1 side in the world! Certainly the impression given on these boards.

Cries of outrage when Welshmen like Ryan Jones or Dan Biggar are not picked.

I suppose losing to every and any SH side is nothing new to you. This is what worries me. Packing the side full of a team who have very little experience in winning matches vs SH sides. Even your decent runs in the RWC and in the 6 nations were against NH sides.


secretfly fair points. I just don't think Biggar is a divine being that should be worshipped throughout the NH.

bsando wrote:As I'll be supporting the Wallabies, I have to say I think this Lions squad is extremely beatable. Mainly due to the centres selected.

Roberts, Davies, Tuilagi and BOD

Not much creativity there really, apart from BOD who is not exactly a spring chicken.

I reckon Wallabies could have a backline of

9. Genia
10. Cooper or Lealiifano
11. Ioane or Folau
12. Tapuai or McCabe
13. Kuridrani or AAC
14. JOC, Speight or Honeybadger
15. Mogg or Beale (If he finds some better form coming back from his ban)

Head to head, I think Wallabies win it by a mile. Gatland in my view has selected a big, physical, but ultimately predictable team. McCabe and co can handle the threat of Tuilagi, Roberts or Davies.

3-0 or 2-1 to Wallabies if you ask me.

Everyone is worried about the backs match-up, B.

I think it's looking like:

9. Genia
10. His Quadeness
11. Ioane
12. Lealiifano
13. AAC
14. Mafi
15. Mogg

Terrifying that it's difficult to find a space in the 23 for players like O'Connor and Folau.
Because there's a god in heaven, Speight is not AQ until 2014.

Aussie backs are good but wouldn't be overly worried about them

9. Genia - Over rated. Put him under pressure and he will fold
10. His Quadeness. - Not international class.
11. Ioane - Aussie danger man.
12. Lealiifano - Uncapped and untested.
13. AAC - Good, steady but not going to set the world on fire.
14. Mafi - Good but again uncapped and untested at international level. Wont be picked.
15. Mogg - Good but again uncapped and untested at international level. Wont be picked.

Beale and O'Connor will start ahead of Mafi and Mogg. McCabe will start ahead Lealifano.

With the right game plan the Lions should have the measure of the Aussie backs.

No idea why anyone would be worried about Folau. Hope he starts. He doesn't even know the rules of union.

GunsGerms wrote:What does Hartley bring to the party other than yellow cards and controversy? Why would anyone want to pick him ovet Best?

Okay, as a Saints fan I'm as surprised as anybody to see Hartley selected but all this rubbish about yellow cards etc? He's played plenty of times for England and his discipline record is pretty good considering. Same with people saying the Aussies will wind him and get under his skin - been tried plenty of times before (including by Gatland) without any success. In fact he almost seems to play better when this has happened previously.

Why has Gatland selected him? Probably because for all his faults he is just about the most accurate thrower available to the Lions and there isn't much time to work on the lineout to get it right before the first test. Would I have picked Hartley over Best? Nope but there you go. I think Best has paid for his wobbly lineout throwing of late and Gatland must feel he doesn't do the hooker basics well enough (again I don't agree but what can you do). As for people saying that Hartley's is obviously a Rowntree pick, just remember that WG was himself a hooker and was forwards coach on the last tour.

Also why does everyone keep complaining about Stevens over Grant? Stevens has been picked at tighthead (and to my knowledge has played just about exclusively there since the 2 reserve props thing became the norm), Grant is a loosie unless I'm mistaken. Now I can understand people complaining about Stevens over Murray, Ross, Fran Cotton, my Auntie (insert any name here) but why would you want a squad with 4 loosies and 2 tighheads? Surly the argument is Vunipola or Jenkins over Grant?

B91212 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:What does Hartley bring to the party other than yellow cards and controversy? Why would anyone want to pick him ovet Best?

Okay, as a Saints fan I'm as surprised as anybody to see Hartley selected but all this rubbish about yellow cards etc? He's played plenty of times for England and his discipline record is pretty good considering.

He still has the worst disciplinary record of any Lion or potential Lion so its a fair comment.

So he'll do fine here then.

GunsGerms wrote:Aussie backs are good but wouldn't be overly worried about them

9. Genia - Over rated. Put him under pressure and he will fold
10. His Quadeness. - Not international class.
11. Ioane - Aussie danger man.
12. Lealiifano - Uncapped and untested.
13. AAC - Good, steady but not going to set the world on fire.
14. Mafi - Good but again uncapped and untested at international level. Wont be picked.
15. Mogg - Good but again uncapped and untested at international level. Wont be picked.

Beale and O'Connor will start ahead of Mafi and Mogg. McCabe will start ahead Lealifano.

With the right game plan the Lions should have the measure of the Aussie backs.

No idea why anyone would be worried about Folau. Hope he starts. He doesn't even know the rules of union.

This is what happens when you play make belief.

Genia is the best half back in the world currently, Cooper is invery good form, Ioane is struggling a bit, there is no way Deans will play lealiifano, Mafi and Mogg in the same backline.

AAC may be average in your eyes, but he is in very, very good, nick.

Yes, Ireland could only ever dream of backline players like that. No contest.

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Aussie backs are good but wouldn't be overly worried about them

9. Genia - Over rated. Put him under pressure and he will fold
10. His Quadeness. - Not international class.
11. Ioane - Aussie danger man.
12. Lealiifano - Uncapped and untested.
13. AAC - Good, steady but not going to set the world on fire.
14. Mafi - Good but again uncapped and untested at international level. Wont be picked.
15. Mogg - Good but again uncapped and untested at international level. Wont be picked.

Beale and O'Connor will start ahead of Mafi and Mogg. McCabe will start ahead Lealifano.

With the right game plan the Lions should have the measure of the Aussie backs.

No idea why anyone would be worried about Folau. Hope he starts. He doesn't even know the rules of union.

This is what happens when you play make belief.

Genia is the best half back in the world currently, Cooper is invery good form, Ioane is struggling a bit, there is no way Deans will play lealiifano, Mafi and Mogg in the same backline.

AAC may be average in your eyes, but he is in very, very good, nick.

+1

That backline is phenomenal. As is the replacement one you mentioned. I can't think of a single Lions back I'd put in the Australian backline. Maybe Sexton, Youngs (or Phillips if that's your thing) and BOD/Tuilagi/Halfpenny/North would make the bench but they wouldn't start for Aus

I think that's my comment on this thread though. No point in talking about the Lions 23 now, Gatland has made his choices but I have very little faith at all that we will win a test, unfortunately

ChequeredJersey wrote:I think that's my comment on this thread though. No point in talking about the Lions 23 now, Gatland has made his choices but I have very little faith at all that we will win a test, unfortunately

Why?

George Carlin wrote:

bsando wrote:As I'll be supporting the Wallabies, I have to say I think this Lions squad is extremely beatable. Mainly due to the centres selected.

Roberts, Davies, Tuilagi and BOD

Not much creativity there really, apart from BOD who is not exactly a spring chicken.

I reckon Wallabies could have a backline of

9. Genia
10. Cooper or Lealiifano
11. Ioane or Folau
12. Tapuai or McCabe
13. Kuridrani or AAC
14. JOC, Speight or Honeybadger
15. Mogg or Beale (If he finds some better form coming back from his ban)

Head to head, I think Wallabies win it by a mile. Gatland in my view has selected a big, physical, but ultimately predictable team. McCabe and co can handle the threat of Tuilagi, Roberts or Davies.

3-0 or 2-1 to Wallabies if you ask me.

Everyone is worried about the backs match-up, B.

I think it's looking like:

9. Genia
10. His Quadeness
11. Ioane
12. Lealiifano
13. AAC
14. Mafi
15. Mogg

Terrifying that it's difficult to find a space in the 23 for players like O'Connor and Folau.
Because there's a god in heaven, Speight is not AQ until 2014.

I did wonder about speight, cheers GC.
Shame, he is on great form. But watch out of for cummins. He'll be back from injury soon hopefully and he's a beast. I think JOC has to start and I expect McCabe to play too, deans isa big fan of him and so am I actually. This is shaping up to be a classic lions tour... As the SMH puts it "Gatland opts for slabs of red meat!"

maestegmafia wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I think that's my comment on this thread though. No point in talking about the Lions 23 now, Gatland has made his choices but I have very little faith at all that we will win a test, unfortunately

Why?

I regret answering this, but:

I think we are missing some of our best players, especially leaving the likes of Best and Grant in the front row, and taking Vunipola, who is nowhere near ready, Stevens who is on great form for Saracens but last time I saw him play rugby at this level was literally abysmal. We will lose the potential advantage in the scrum with a couple of injuries.

I will be surprised if there are more than 4 non-Welsh players in the starting 15. I understand the merits of taking a lot of players from 1 team, especially when they had a good final match of the 6N, but Wales haven't been that good this year or this 6N to merit 15 Lions, especially as they have played Australia a lot in the last few years and (however close the matches might be) have not beaten them since 2008. They have also not won against SH opposition in 7 matches and against Tri Nation opposition in a staggering 16 matches.

No Kelly Brown or Robshaw or Wood is a huge mistake for me, as is making Warburton captain given the accusations of nepotism, the fact I think he is a good player (though NOT in fantastic form despite his strong showing against England) but a weak captain and the fact there are better captains (and players) more recently skippering Wales who have been left behind. I can't see where Warburton deserves a start even in this Lions squad. Lydiate is just back from injury, IMO overrated and not ready and offers less than other options ignored and taken. Croft is scoring tries and a unique attacking option but I'm not convinced he's ready to play International rugby never mind Lions rugby again yet. Heaslip has been poor most of the year. I understand that previous Lions experience is useful, but surely not when it is losing previous Lions experience.

Murray is a mistake, as is only having 2 FHs who will now IMO struggle with the workload of playing/covering every match on tour as I don't see any suitable 10 cover elsewhere at all. The backline is homogenous and predictable and outclassed by the Aussies in pretty much every position but Fly-Half (arguably) and Full Back. The team suits Gatland's Wales gameplan which has been seen to be ineffective against Australia on multiple occasions.

The thought of Farrell coming on as a game-changer against Australia fills me with a mix of dread and mirth.

Can see no reason why AWJ or Gray (other than on reputation, though I know Scots will argue with me) should tour and not sure Parling and certainly not both T Youngs and Hartley if either are the best in their positions either. Or Maitland.

Players just back from significant injury are at higher risk of getting injured again, defeating the point of having training time on a long tour. We have at least 5 who fit into that bracket and also who have consequently played relatively little rugby recently to prepare them for an intense long tour.



I am going to put a small bet on a 3-0 Australian victory, which I hope I do not win but it looks like easy money from this point. I will be cheering the Lions as hard as I can but I have no faith at all.

Can't believe Lydiate is touring. Just come back from injury, played very little rugby and simply a player who is very good at tackling thats it, not worth the risk.

Just read its Hogg that will provide cover for 10.

nathan - a combined Leicester/Leinster team, with s few 'blow ins' would give the Aussies plenty of problems. Say...

15 Kearney
14 Bowe
13 Tuilagi
12 O'Driscoll
11 Maitland
10 Sexton
9 Youngs

1 Healy
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 O'Connell
5 Parling
6 Croft
7 O'Brien
8 Heaslip



Enough craft and graft in that line up.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I think that's my comment on this thread though. No point in talking about the Lions 23 now, Gatland has made his choices but I have very little faith at all that we will win a test, unfortunately

Why?

I regret answering this, but:

I think we are missing some of our best players, especially leaving the likes of Best and Grant in the front row, and taking Vunipola, who is nowhere near ready, Stevens who is on great form for Saracens but last time I saw him play rugby at this level was literally abysmal. We will lose the potential advantage in the scrum with a couple of injuries.

I will be surprised if there are more than 4 non-Welsh players in the starting 15. I understand the merits of taking a lot of players from 1 team, especially when they had a good final match of the 6N, but Wales haven't been that good this year or this 6N to merit 15 Lions, especially as they have played Australia a lot in the last few years and (however close the matches might be) have not beaten them since 2008. They have also not won against SH opposition in 7 matches and against Tri Nation opposition in a staggering 16 matches.

No Kelly Brown or Robshaw or Wood is a huge mistake for me, as is making Warburton captain given the accusations of nepotism, the fact I think he is a good player (though NOT in fantastic form despite his strong showing against England) but a weak captain and the fact there are better captains (and players) more recently skippering Wales who have been left behind. I can't see where Warburton deserves a start even in this Lions squad. Lydiate is just back from injury, IMO overrated and not ready and offers less than other options ignored and taken. Croft is scoring tries and a unique attacking option but I'm not convinced he's ready to play International rugby never mind Lions rugby again yet. Heaslip has been poor most of the year. I understand that previous Lions experience is useful, but surely not when it is losing previous Lions experience.

Murray is a mistake, as is only having 2 FHs who will now IMO struggle with the workload of playing/covering every match on tour as I don't see any suitable 10 cover elsewhere at all. The backline is homogenous and predictable and outclassed by the Aussies in pretty much every position but Fly-Half (arguably) and Full Back. The team suits Gatland's Wales gameplan which has been seen to be ineffective against Australia on multiple occasions.

The thought of Farrell coming on as a game-changer against Australia fills me with a mix of dread and mirth.

Can see no reason why AWJ or Gray (other than on reputation, though I know Scots will argue with me) should tour and not sure Parling and certainly not both T Youngs and Hartley if either are the best in their positions either. Or Maitland.

Players just back from significant injury are at higher risk of getting injured again, defeating the point of having training time on a long tour. We have at least 5 who fit into that bracket and also who have consequently played relatively little rugby recently to prepare them for an intense long tour.



I am going to put a small bet on a 3-0 Australian victory, which I hope I do not win but it looks like easy money from this point. I will be cheering the Lions as hard as I can but I have no faith at all.

I dont think there is a single point raised in your post that isn't also a concern of every other fan. But all I can add as a matter of confidence and optimism is that often many criticise Gatland and his coaching team for Wales only to be proved wrong.

I wouldn't site Wales recent record against Australia as a downside, this is not a Welsh team it is a Lions team and no matter how many Welshmen make up the squad there is no guaranty that they will make the test XV or that considering how close their results were vs the Aussies that they are incapable of beating them, particularly with a little help from their home nations mates.

maestegmafia wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I think that's my comment on this thread though. No point in talking about the Lions 23 now, Gatland has made his choices but I have very little faith at all that we will win a test, unfortunately

Why?

I regret answering this, but:

I think we are missing some of our best players, especially leaving the likes of Best and Grant in the front row, and taking Vunipola, who is nowhere near ready, Stevens who is on great form for Saracens but last time I saw him play rugby at this level was literally abysmal. We will lose the potential advantage in the scrum with a couple of injuries.

I will be surprised if there are more than 4 non-Welsh players in the starting 15. I understand the merits of taking a lot of players from 1 team, especially when they had a good final match of the 6N, but Wales haven't been that good this year or this 6N to merit 15 Lions, especially as they have played Australia a lot in the last few years and (however close the matches might be) have not beaten them since 2008. They have also not won against SH opposition in 7 matches and against Tri Nation opposition in a staggering 16 matches.

No Kelly Brown or Robshaw or Wood is a huge mistake for me, as is making Warburton captain given the accusations of nepotism, the fact I think he is a good player (though NOT in fantastic form despite his strong showing against England) but a weak captain and the fact there are better captains (and players) more recently skippering Wales who have been left behind. I can't see where Warburton deserves a start even in this Lions squad. Lydiate is just back from injury, IMO overrated and not ready and offers less than other options ignored and taken. Croft is scoring tries and a unique attacking option but I'm not convinced he's ready to play International rugby never mind Lions rugby again yet. Heaslip has been poor most of the year. I understand that previous Lions experience is useful, but surely not when it is losing previous Lions experience.

Murray is a mistake, as is only having 2 FHs who will now IMO struggle with the workload of playing/covering every match on tour as I don't see any suitable 10 cover elsewhere at all. The backline is homogenous and predictable and outclassed by the Aussies in pretty much every position but Fly-Half (arguably) and Full Back. The team suits Gatland's Wales gameplan which has been seen to be ineffective against Australia on multiple occasions.

The thought of Farrell coming on as a game-changer against Australia fills me with a mix of dread and mirth.

Can see no reason why AWJ or Gray (other than on reputation, though I know Scots will argue with me) should tour and not sure Parling and certainly not both T Youngs and Hartley if either are the best in their positions either. Or Maitland.

Players just back from significant injury are at higher risk of getting injured again, defeating the point of having training time on a long tour. We have at least 5 who fit into that bracket and also who have consequently played relatively little rugby recently to prepare them for an intense long tour.



I am going to put a small bet on a 3-0 Australian victory, which I hope I do not win but it looks like easy money from this point. I will be cheering the Lions as hard as I can but I have no faith at all.

I dont think there is a single point raised in your post that isn't also a concern of every other fan. But all I can add as a matter of confidence and optimism is that often many criticise Gatland and is team for Wales only to be proved wrong.

I wouldn't site Wales recent record against Australia as a downside, this is not a Welsh team it is a Lions team and no matter how many Welshmen make up the squad there is no guaranty that they will make the test XV or that considering how close their results were vs the Aussies that they are incapable of beating them, particularly with a little help from their home nations mates.

Thoughtful and intelligent response there, maesteg though I will be astounded if the first test starting XV isn't at least 2/3rds Welsh

Linebreaker wrote:Yes, Ireland could only ever dream of backline players like that. No contest.

Getting very wound up today Linebreaker. Getting sweaty paws over this series?

LB has a point

ChequeredJersey wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:I think that's my comment on this thread though. No point in talking about the Lions 23 now, Gatland has made his choices but I have very little faith at all that we will win a test, unfortunately

Why?

I regret answering this, but:

I think we are missing some of our best players, especially leaving the likes of Best and Grant in the front row, and taking Vunipola, who is nowhere near ready, Stevens who is on great form for Saracens but last time I saw him play rugby at this level was literally abysmal. We will lose the potential advantage in the scrum with a couple of injuries.

I will be surprised if there are more than 4 non-Welsh players in the starting 15. I understand the merits of taking a lot of players from 1 team, especially when they had a good final match of the 6N, but Wales haven't been that good this year or this 6N to merit 15 Lions, especially as they have played Australia a lot in the last few years and (however close the matches might be) have not beaten them since 2008. They have also not won against SH opposition in 7 matches and against Tri Nation opposition in a staggering 16 matches.

No Kelly Brown or Robshaw or Wood is a huge mistake for me, as is making Warburton captain given the accusations of nepotism, the fact I think he is a good player (though NOT in fantastic form despite his strong showing against England) but a weak captain and the fact there are better captains (and players) more recently skippering Wales who have been left behind. I can't see where Warburton deserves a start even in this Lions squad. Lydiate is just back from injury, IMO overrated and not ready and offers less than other options ignored and taken. Croft is scoring tries and a unique attacking option but I'm not convinced he's ready to play International rugby never mind Lions rugby again yet. Heaslip has been poor most of the year. I understand that previous Lions experience is useful, but surely not when it is losing previous Lions experience.

Murray is a mistake, as is only having 2 FHs who will now IMO struggle with the workload of playing/covering every match on tour as I don't see any suitable 10 cover elsewhere at all. The backline is homogenous and predictable and outclassed by the Aussies in pretty much every position but Fly-Half (arguably) and Full Back. The team suits Gatland's Wales gameplan which has been seen to be ineffective against Australia on multiple occasions.

The thought of Farrell coming on as a game-changer against Australia fills me with a mix of dread and mirth.

Can see no reason why AWJ or Gray (other than on reputation, though I know Scots will argue with me) should tour and not sure Parling and certainly not both T Youngs and Hartley if either are the best in their positions either. Or Maitland.

Players just back from significant injury are at higher risk of getting injured again, defeating the point of having training time on a long tour. We have at least 5 who fit into that bracket and also who have consequently played relatively little rugby recently to prepare them for an intense long tour.



I am going to put a small bet on a 3-0 Australian victory, which I hope I do not win but it looks like easy money from this point. I will be cheering the Lions as hard as I can but I have no faith at all.

I dont think there is a single point raised in your post that isn't also a concern of every other fan. But all I can add as a matter of confidence and optimism is that often many criticise Gatland and is team for Wales only to be proved wrong.

I wouldn't site Wales recent record against Australia as a downside, this is not a Welsh team it is a Lions team and no matter how many Welshmen make up the squad there is no guaranty that they will make the test XV or that considering how close their results were vs the Aussies that they are incapable of beating them, particularly with a little help from their home nations mates.

Thoughtful and intelligent response there, maesteg though I will be astounded if the first test starting XV isn't at least 2/3rds Welsh

Well they are the best team in the Northern Hemisphere so they were always going to make up a large section of this squad/text XV.

Plenty of good players in that squad, a number of surprises, but having read a myriad of posts today post announcement I have seen everyone contentious justified by someone or other and there are subjective plus points for each player.

Gatland has always been a coach who knows his own mind and one who has a good idea on how to get the best from players.

Biltong wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Aussie backs are good but wouldn't be overly worried about them

9. Genia - Over rated. Put him under pressure and he will fold
10. His Quadeness. - Not international class.
11. Ioane - Aussie danger man.
12. Lealiifano - Uncapped and untested.
13. AAC - Good, steady but not going to set the world on fire.
14. Mafi - Good but again uncapped and untested at international level. Wont be picked.
15. Mogg - Good but again uncapped and untested at international level. Wont be picked.

Beale and O'Connor will start ahead of Mafi and Mogg. McCabe will start ahead Lealifano.

With the right game plan the Lions should have the measure of the Aussie backs.

No idea why anyone would be worried about Folau. Hope he starts. He doesn't even know the rules of union.

This is what happens when you play make belief.

Genia is the best half back in the world currently, Cooper is invery good form, Ioane is struggling a bit, there is no way Deans will play lealiifano, Mafi and Mogg in the same backline.

AAC may be average in your eyes, but he is in very, very good, nick.

Not saying AAC is average. He international quality. McCabe his probable partner is average enough. I prefer the Lions centres.

Genia has a good break and may marginally be the best in the business but he isn't nearly as good as some people think. Like I said a bit of pressure and he will crack.

Cooper will never be as good as Sexton. Would pick him any day of the week over Cooper.

The Aussie backs are in disarray. Ioane and Beale are the biggest threats but Ioane as you say if off form and Beale is a head case who may now not make the team.

Cooper is also a head case who isn't a team player on and off the field and seems more interested in causing trouble.

Lots of good up and coming Aussie backs but if they make their international debuts in a Lions series they had better be ready for a pounding.

allright lads.

jeas - how could he ommit Robshaw!!

arrrr.

Robshaw's not the issue here, his ommission is no surprise - It's the likes of Hartley and Stevens that are causing a stir but maybe Gats wanted to include a couple of SH players

yeah stevens is weird right- is he the player that gave up international rugby!

But no my issue is the ommitance of robshaw

so take that gubs

What's the issue with Robshaw - he's a cracking player but compared to the others he's just not good enough, he just falls between a lot of stools and is more a Jack of all trades

bahhhhh

Write yourself a pescription for some mood stabalisers.

Robshaw is King

Is he as good as Ryan Jones Oakey?

Yeah!!

nah i dunno to be honest mate..

I just think its a bit of a kick in the teeth for a player that is the most recent captain to beat an SH team

I know this isnt my argument, but is anyone else out there of the opinion that Robshaw was the the hardest working loose forward in the 6 Nations?

Certainly over the whole tourny for me Aucks yes.

For me the lions is about respect and earning the place..

Its not just about picking the best side.. even though Robshaw would be in my best side anyway..

Thats a relief Mystir, because for a moment there I thought I wasnt in the rugby section.

What surprises me on this is that Gatland is one of those coaches that recognises hard workers and I'd have thought he and Robshaw would be very likeminded.

There was a meeting...Gatland and his English coaching colleagues talked things through. He knew how many Welsh players he wanted...he knew he was boss. He was prepared to compromise but only to the extent that the Lions coach is a political appointment as much as it is a sporting one.

You have to try to hit a balance to keep fans onboard - it might be publicised as just best players but it is in truth best players whilst trying to have input from all Nations.

The English coaches probably suggested more than 10 English players. Gatland probably listened and compromised. "If you really want him, you can't have the other guy because I'm only taking 37 and I know how many of them will be Welsh. So choose which one."

I think Robshaw must have been a fallguy in a negotiation on numbers. Plus, they might have expected friction between two young ambitious Captains, one having authority over the other. With older guys like O'Connell, that's not so much an issue - as older guys tend to worry less about the image of leader and just lead if required on the field itself.

Plus, POC's ginger hair would have clashed horribly with the red shirt in press pack photographs, as would BOD's iron lung and team of private nurses. Mind you, did anyone else think that Sam looked as though he'd just rolled out of a hedge?

GunsGerms wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:Yes, Ireland could only ever dream of backline players like that. No contest.

Getting very wound up today Linebreaker. Getting sweaty paws over this series?

No, no sweaty paws. What for?

Can't see anything in the Lions squad that would make the Wallabies' tails twitch either.

Linebreaker wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:Yes, Ireland could only ever dream of backline players like that. No contest.

Getting very wound up today Linebreaker. Getting sweaty paws over this series?

No, no sweaty paws. What for?

Can't see anything in the Lions squad that would make the Wallabies' tails twitch either.

Agree, not even a nervous twitch from Deans either.

BBC have announced a new category at thier Sports Personality of the Year Awards.

"Brainfart of the year"

The condenders are:
Nick De Luca - For his spear tackle
Warren Gatland - For his bewildering Lions selection
Cian Healy - For his stamp
Warren Gatland - For his bewildering Lions selection
Ronan O'Gara - For his crossfield kick in his last international game
Warren Gatland - For his bewildering Lions selection

And the winner is.........

Warren Gatland for his bewildering Lions selection