Eng v Aus match thread + build up

[DeludedOptimistorjustDave]

First topic message reminder :

Chance to chat about the game.
I think it will be a real cracker with England to take it by around 8 points or more.
I know every game is important but the management must have this penciled in as a must win because they can win it if they play it right.

[sirtidychris]

Tomkins ... 6 ft 3 in; 15 st 10 lb
12 trees 6 ft 3 in ; 15 st 10 lb
Farrell 6 ft 2 in 15 st 2 lb

Its not that lightweight !

[BamBam]

Is Farrell that big?? I knew he was a decent size for an outside half, but still!

[Hood83]

i think that backline has a good attacking threat but its in the back three rather than before where it was bascially just give it to Manu. Ashton is in great form , he will be popping up all over the place and with tompkins you have a big lad, great defence, great offload and good distribution, i will expect to see ashton running lines off him all day. With dickson and Twelvetrees we have two very good passers, twelvetrees will be making sure Yarde and Brown will be seeing alot of the ball and dickson will be geting the ball away very quickly, rather than just staring at it for a while which both Youngs and Care frustratingly do from time to time. We have a very Physical 10,12,13 combo all with great defence and all looking to get it wide..the back three will be chomping at the bit as supposed to buying gloves when barritt and tuilagi play.  

I really can't understand people's take on Tomkins. I think Oz will find it a complete stroll against him. Every time I've seen him he's looked lumpen and ineffective. His distribution and off-loading looks massively over-hyped to me, his running game is pedestrian and his kicking is nothing special. His defence? Fine, but positionally not perfect as you'd expect from a convert. He is not going to go over people like Manu, round them like Trinder or Joseph or beat them with a pass. I'd have Daly (though he's playing 15 at the moment so the timing may be poor), JJ or Trinder ahead, despite their worse defence.

[doctor_grey]

Here is the simple recipe to win this sucker:
1.  Receive kick-off.  Do not allow Farrell to kick possession back.
2. Give ball to Lawes to attack meat of Wallabies defense, Robshaw and Wood to ruck over.
3. Give ball to nearest Vunipola, Launchbury and Cole to ruck over.
4. Give ball to Tom Youngs, Wood and Robshaw to ruck over.
5. Repeat steps 2 -4 until Wallabies defense is tender and ready for cooking.
6. Allow backs to touch the ball.

[ChequeredJersey]

Here is the simple recipe to win this sucker:
1.  Receive kick-off.  Do not allow Farrell to kick possession back.
2. Give ball to Lawes to attack meat of Wallabies defense, Robshaw and Wood to ruck over.
3. Give ball to nearest Vunipola, Launchbury and Cole to ruck over.
4. Give ball to Tom Youngs, Wood and Robshaw to ruck over.
5. Repeat steps 2 -4 until Wallabies defense is tender and ready for cooking.
6. Allow backs to touch the ball.

This should always be the recipe

[Hood83]

Can't say i'm looking forward to Dickson and Tomkins playing, it has stodge written all over it. If our backrow doesn't muller Oz at the breakdown we are going to have some very slow and ponderous ball shipped along our line. I don't think Tomkins is anywhere near international class.

Nice of you to write off a player before he has had even played.

You talk about slow and ponderous ball. I would say that Dickson generally gives a snappier pass than Youngs and Care who have a tendency to crab across the field and take too long to make decisions occasionally.

Dickson is in very good form. I know some posters have been waxing lyrical about Myler but he's been made to look better because of the decent form of his scrum halves.

People underestimate how much influence a 9's performance has on the 10's performance. Slow service from the 9 puts the rest of the backline under pressure but if the 9 gives the 10 more time than it makes their job much easier.

In a way it makes sense to start - Dickson/Farrell - both in good form. It means you can bring the Tigers duo of Youngs/Flood off the bench.

Farrell hasn't exactly had the best 9s to work with for his club this season so we might see a further improvement from him.

Nice of you to jump in with your usual chippy support of Sarries players.

Dickson is an unusual one for me. I'd agree when he concentrates on getting the ball away he's probably marginally quicker at getting it out from under a pack than Youngs or Care. The requirement for the scrum half to use the ball has improved his game as he was an awful dawdler before that. Youngs, for me, has gone backwards, but I think Care is a better player than Dickson, and on form his pass is as good.

Our back-line is slower than erosion and carries almost zero running threat at 9, 10, 12 and 13. I don't think that is good enough. Not a criticism of the individual players, but picked together I think we don't have enough. The Aussies are too savvy to just have it trucked up against them.

Hood83 what do you expect me to say? I would have personally probably had Trinder instead of Tomkins but as Tomkins has been picked I will support him. I certainly won't write him off as not being international class before he's even played!

Dickson is not a Sarries player by the way.

Care in my opinion has proven himself as an excellent club player but for me has never really shown the same form at international level.

I think you're underrating the backline. Okay it doesn't have that much X factor but I think the players are good enough to make decent progress. Surely it's an improvement on the one in the 6 nations?

No of course, but mine was an opinion same as yours. There's plenty of players I'd write off before they play at international level. If my dad was lining up at 13 I'd probably give him little chance. I don't think Tomkins is good enough, plenty here seem excited by playing and obviously see something I don't.

Chequered Jersey's point re Care is a fair one - given the lack of running threat now from 9-13 I'd say that is a problem. Genia v Dickson is a really horrible mismatch.

[Hood83]

Wow Hoody ol boy, your not very enthusiastic about this one are you.

Id like to agree with Chris.

Defensively - Is there actually any weeklinks? Even Ashton has found his tackling boots so far this season...and with Lawes leading like a exocet missile i think we should be fine.

Offensively - I was hugely critical that we were underweight - especially against Wales. I have slowly changed my mind and think now its more the fact we lacked ANY kind of carrying ability to relieve the pressure and take the game to the opposition. Look at this pack now...Mako, Billy, Tom Young, as hard yard makers, launchbury, Wood and Robshaw all capable in the looser areas and even Lawes appears to have adapted his carrying a bit.
The other benefits of this is that we can then get our strike runners like Ashton, Yarde brown etc running lines on their shoulders...and also using Tomkins as a pivot.

Lineout - we have Lawes, launchbury, Wood and Robshaw giving us 4 options.

Scrum - Well Youngs and Cole are doing just fine with the new laws and have faced the Aussies before....no worries. Mako despite a torrid half an hour spell is not HALF as bad as everyone seems to make out...and indeed im sure Sarries have been hammering him in this area constantly aswell...add to that Parling is lighter than Lawes and Launchbury we have added bulk in the engine room to support the front row.

I am actually positive that IF we can get our potential gameplan going...we good do quite well.

I'm a glass half empty kind of guy   I was thinking about our current strengths and weaknesses and thinking how Lancaster was looking at this. I'll write my thoughts down once i've mulled over more, bit undecided by 9,10,12 and 13 does worry me.

[munkian]

Tomkins ... 6 ft 3 in; 15 st 10 lb
12 trees 6 ft 3 in ; 15 st 10 lb
Farrell 6 ft 2 in 15 st 2 lb

Its not that lightweight !

Aw, thats adorable  

[Scrumpy]

Is Farrell really 15st?

Still looks like a manchild!

[Bathman_in_London]

Here is the simple recipe to win this sucker:
1.  Receive kick-off.  Do not allow Farrell to kick possession back.
2. Give ball to Lawes to attack meat of Wallabies defense, Robshaw and Wood to ruck over.
3. Give ball to nearest Vunipola, Launchbury and Cole to ruck over.
4. Give ball to Tom Youngs, Wood and Robshaw to ruck over.
5. Repeat steps 2 -4 until Wallabies defense is tender and ready for cooking.
6. Allow backs to touch the ball.

After step 5 hopefully Oz will be pinged for going off their feet. Faz kicks the 3 points and we can start at step 1 again. I see no reason to go to step 6 until we have a nice healthy cushion on the score board!

[Scrumpy]

100% agree Bathman

[ChequeredJersey]

Guessing we mostly played in the forwards, right?

[Scrumpy]

Guessing we mostly played in the forwards, right?

I hope so.

[Poorfour]

Here is the simple recipe to win this sucker:
1.  Receive kick-off.  Do not allow Farrell to kick possession back.
2. Give ball to Lawes to attack meat of Wallabies defense, Robshaw and Wood to ruck over.
3. Give ball to nearest Vunipola, Launchbury and Cole to ruck over.
4. Give ball to Tom Youngs, Wood and Robshaw to ruck over.
5. Repeat steps 2 -4 until Wallabies defense is tender and ready for cooking.
6. Allow backs to touch the ball.

You are Jeremy Guscott and I claim my £10!

[Geordie]

Lets not forget though...this is the Aussies we're playing. They'll be hurting, Ewan has them coming together more as a group, and they're playing the Poms...and they still have some great players out there...this is going to be no walk in the park.

Our boys are gonna be in a proper test match....We'll see if the pretenders to some of the crowns are the real deal on Saturday...or if they're rabbits in the headlights.

[beshocked]

To be fair Doctor Grey that's not a bad plan. Farrell looks better when he kicks less.

Hood83 your dad is not a professional rugby player is he? I don't understand your dislike of Tomkins. He gets less hype than the likes of Eastmond and Joseph.

Tomkins might well not deliver but you have to give him a chance.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Don't right Dickson off, he is defensively better than either Youngs or Care, he might not have Care's pace off the mark, but he is very adept at taking the quick free kick or running non-kickable penalties, pace on the game is what Saints are about. He scores his share of tries as well, more of a Matt Dawson style there, usually cheeky ones.

He also manages forwards better than either of the others; he understands the mechanics of the rolling maul and will drag players around to the right positions.

He also generally refuses to pass to static forwards, unless they are moving, they don't get the ball, unlike some others I could name.

Genia will not know what to expect, but he will soon find out when he gets flattened a few times.

[quinsforever]

Guessing we mostly played in the forwards, right?

I hope so.

LOL - yup

[Jhamer25]

Think England will struggle with the injuries they have at the moment.
Have a good storng ball carrying pack wit Vunipolo's, Lawes, Youngs and Robshaw but for once, the aussie will have the stornger scrum.
Yes Vunipolo is a great prop around the park, but come scrum time he is going to really struggle. I know Ben Alexander isn't known for his scrummaging but he is tactical prop. Then We all know James Slipper has already given Dan Cole a torrid time this year. You will really miss Corbs and Tuilagi.
Your backs don't really set me alight; Mike Brown ok good attacker, don't even understand why you waist your time with Ashton and a gamble with Yarde who hasn't really played or proven himslef in a game as big as this yet. Cppmared to the Australian back three, the English look really weak.

[Geordie]

Your backs don't really set me alight; Mike Brown ok good attacker, don't even understand why you waist your time with Ashton and a gamble with Yarde who hasn't really played or proven himslef in a game as big as this yet. Cppmared to the Australian back three, the English look really weak..

With this team Ashton will be popping up all over the shop running off peoples shoulders looking for the off loads...and Marlon was outstanding last season...and has blizted the start of this season top scoring so far. If he was any other nationality you'd be saying different things...

The back threes...well lets hope your eating your words after Saturday...

[ChequeredJersey]

They do? Compared to try hard, brick hands Cummins, centre AAC and great in attack and catching but poor in defensive and receiving position Folau ? I'd give you Folau but the other 2? Really? Really weak compared to them? This isn't JOC or Ioane or Speight.

[GloriousEmpire]

They look very lateral in the backs to me. Who is going to provide the straight options? I imagine we will see England shepherded into touch a lot and Australia counter attacking from their probably superior line out.

[munkian]

Didn't Cummins get a decent try at twickers last time ?

[BamBam]

Mike Brown is arguably one of the form full backs in NH rugby this season.

Yarde is a young speedster who has plenty of power and is strong in defence, of course he is unproven at this level, but he has everything in his locker that an international wing needs, he just needs to prove it.

Ashton has a good try scoring record at international level, but has been out of form for the past year and a half. He now looks to be back to form, and the team appears better suited to his particular abilities as GF says.

Dan Cole has performed very well under the new scrum laws, as has Youngs in the last few weeks. Mako has a reputation as being a weak scrummager after a bad half hour for the Lions, he may not be Corbs but very few are.

If we are achieve parity in the scrum, Youngs rucking/carrying, Mako's carrying/regular high tackle count and Cole's work at the breakdown/defence round the fringes is going to make a huge impact around the field

[ChequeredJersey]

They look very lateral in the backs to me. Who is going to provide the straight options? I imagine we will see England shepherded into touch a lot and Australia counter attacking from their probably superior line out.

Mike Brown, step forward

[BamBam]

Twelvetrees and Tomkins are hardly ballet dancers either

[GloriousEmpire]

They look very lateral in the backs to me. Who is going to provide the straight options? I imagine we will see England shepherded into touch a lot and Australia counter attacking from their probably superior line out.

Mike Brown, step forward

I was including him in lateral.

[ChequeredJersey]

Ah, you've never watched him, excellent.

[ChequeredJersey]

I love it when people offer opinions on players they've never watched

[No 7&1/2]

Ah, you've never watched him, excellent.

Surprised?

[ChequeredJersey]

Except, to be fair, against Clermont where he did do quite a bit of lateral running

[GloriousEmpire]

No I've seen him. Very lateral I thought. Lacking in any genuine penetration at the line. Lots of skipping sideways. Appearing to "beat defenders" but actually just traversing the defensive line.

[Sgt_Pooly]

The danger man is Folau, if we can contain him we'll keep Aussies at bay. He is a huge threat ball in hand.

[ChequeredJersey]

Ok if that's what you say you saw. I'll await your stunning analysis with anticipation after the match, also if you want I am happy to do a free clinical examination of your eyes and cranial nerves

[GloriousEmpire]

Are you going to stand for that sgt?

[Sgt_Pooly]

Brown has his faults but he's certainly not a lateral runner.

He's one of the straightest running full backs about, hard to put down and strong in the contact.

He lacks gas and a bit of flair but he's no mug.

[GloriousEmpire]

Luck? Or successful execution of high risk skills by sublime athletes?

[GloriousEmpire]

Brown has his faults but he's certainly not a lateral runner.

He's one of the straightest running full backs about, hard to put down and strong in the contact.

He lacks gas and a bit of flair but he's no mug.

Isn't lacking gas and flair the definition of a mug?

[Sgt_Pooly]

Jhamer, no need to call people idiots fella.

If you can't form a non abusive debate your not welcome on here.

[sirtidychris]

England hardly have an injury crisis, who are we missing corbs, tuilagi, croft and parling thats not bad considering Martin johnson list in 2010 !!! anyway....who are australia missing Digby ioane, Scott higgenbottom, David Pocock, Rob simmons, kurtley Beale, James o'connor(mentally injured), Wycliff Palu, Anthony Fainga’a , Pat McCabe, Lachie Turner and about another 6/7 fringe players that could have pushed into the wobbelies.

[Sgt_Pooly]

Brown has his faults but he's certainly not a lateral runner.

He's one of the straightest running full backs about, hard to put down and strong in the contact.

He lacks gas and a bit of flair but he's no mug.

Isn't lacking gas and flair the definition of a mug?

Not really no.

[No 7&1/2]

Ashton has been the form right winger so far this season. It's easy to see why he's been given a start but Wade is waiting for his chance if Aston continues his poor England form. I think the team has been very much picked on form barring perhaps Twelvetrees. Very happy overall.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Unless Andy Farrell's normal game-plan prevails, I'd be expecting a lot more unstructured movements from the English backs. Specifically from the back three who are all in exciting form.

[GloriousEmpire]

Forecast is (unsurprisingly) for rain. That should suit England's slower more plodding percentages based game.

[nathan]

So you have never seen a player play yet still come out with an opinion on him?

[GloriousEmpire]

Who're you talking to mate?

[Taylorman]

When I mentioned lightweight I meant in terms of experience at test level. After seeing the actual heights and weights maybe I should have said overweight. But what have these guys done at the test level? Against SH sides. If club form is being touted in terms of their ability then the backs are certainly lacking. Oz may have lost some but they've played and lost to only the very best...the lions, ABs and the boks. England don't rate up there with the 3 yet either other than their win last year.

At six N time England failed to score more than one try in about five hours of rugby. That was with a better back line than this one. Where us this confidence coming from? Sure gets me.

[Poorfour]

Brown will pick a line that enables him to take the tackle on his own terms, which will usually result in him getting past or at least behind the first defender, and often draws in a second.

As long as someone is on his shoulder for the offload, that will create breaks. A big problem last year was that Brown and Ashton really didn't know how to run support lines for each other meaning that too often the supporter wasn't in position to take the pass. As long as they've worked on that, I expect them to be a handful for the Aussies.

[BamBam]

When I mentioned lightweight I meant in terms of experience at test level. After seeing the actual heights and weights maybe I should  have said overweight. But what have these guys done at the test level? Against SH sides. If club form is being touted in terms of their ability then the backs are certainly lacking. Oz may have lost some but they've played and lost to only the very best...the lions, ABs and the boks. England don't rate up there with the 3 yet either other than their win last year.

At six N time England failed to score more than one try in about five hours of rugby. That was with a better back line than this one. Where us this confidence coming from? Sure gets me.

I would disagree that backline was better Taylorman.
 
6N
 
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Brown
12. Barritt
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Goode
 
Brown was out of position on the wing, Barritt is a fine defender, but has not shown enough attacking instinct at international level, Goode hasn't got the pace of an international FB and Farrell was not playing great attacking rugby either.
 
Saturday
 
9. Dickson
10. Farrell
11. Yarde
12. Twelvetrees
13. Tomkins
14. Ashton
15. Brown
 
Dickson and Farrell are both in good form, attacking well and getting the backs moving so far this season. Yarde >> Brown on the wing, Twelvetrees>Barritt as an attacking centre, ok Tuilagi is a big loss but Tomkins is no mug, Ashton this season >>> Ashton last season and I far prefer Brown>Goode as a FB

[tigerleghorn]

Forecast is (unsurprisingly) for rain. That should suit England's slower more plodding percentages based game.

Yep, it does rain here in November. Will you be supporting England in your local English Pub or at home in your adopted England GE?

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