HC final - Saracens vs Toulon - Cardiff - Wilko vs Farrell.....

First topic message reminder :

Should be a cracker (England vs France) with two of the best teams in the NH playing each other in a celebration of rugby, can't wait to get there and soak up the atmosphere before, during and after the game, roll on 24th May.

HammerofThunor wrote:That was clearly forward whatever interpretation you use (1st pass to Smith)

Flat Hammer, flat

Flippin hell Habana the socceresque drama queen   

It's not been the greatest final but it's been absorbing never the less.

Nachos Jones wrote:That was quality there. That will be it for Saracens. Shame really as their demolition of ASM made me think they might go all the way.

Yeah a lot of people forgot they lost to Toulouse home and away and struggled past Ulster with 15 v 14 for almost the whole game.They're a decent side but no English team will win the European Cup until they change the salary cap to compete with the French.The problem is that if they do that then all the extra BT money that is supposed to be helping the smaller clubs break even will just be squandered on wages as it becomes an arms race to see who can spend biggest to get the best players in.

Habana does deserve an Oscar but similarly Farrell has got to lose these silly petulant moments, though. You always get the feeling they're going to cost England dear one day. He always does well for a long time and then relapses when he's frustrated.

Mathieu Bastareaud comedy drop goal attempt  

E for effort Mathieu! E for effort...

No9 wrote:A penalty was the correct call for the offence, however, I would have reversed the decision for the blatant dive. Habana should be ashamed of himself.

Not a Saries fan and defiantly not a Farrell fan, but I hate seeing bad sportsmanship like diving.... Bad show Habana...

I agree with that. Cheating needs to be removed from the game. No matter how dumb Farrell was there, there is no excuse for that type of reaction from Habana.

It was good of Rolland to tell him not to play act but I feel examples have to be made to cut that sort of thing out.

I disagree asore, there are still some quality English teams there. Leicester have a great team but just need to stay injury free and Northampton will always be there or there abouts.

This is just a golden period for Toulon just like Leinster and Munster and other teams have had. The answer is not simply well "we need to buy more players".

It's on the day. Sarries could have won this. But on the day Toulon have done the business

Habana really has gone way downhill, both as a player and as a person since joining Toulon.

Another awful display from Rolland. Terrible ref. He will not be missed.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Habana really has gone way downhill, both as a player and as a person since joining Toulon.

Bit harsh. He had a very bad injury and hasn't played much rugby. And as a person, it was a bad dive but lets not blow it out of proportion hey...

Poor final sarries really disappointing! Munster the only team to put it up to Toulon

Its not the first time Notch. Didn't he also get a red recently?

Don't know tbh, haven't really been following the Top14

BlueMuff- Cardiff Blues would disagree!   

I said before the game that I thought that Hodgson was a better option to start this match. Wigglesworth and Farrell don't work together. Sarries needed a more dynamic 10 than Farrell for this match against Toulon.

Would have loved to see how they fared on a knockout visit to Thomond or Welford road but Toulon have been a class apart this season (Cardiff result apart), moreso even than last season.

That's JW to a tee. Straight to shake hands with the Sarries players before celebrating with his team. Quality player, person and his sportsmanship will be sorely missed.

What a sore loser Vunipola, not shaking hands with the opposition, go hide yourself.

Nachos Jones wrote:That's JW to a tee. Straight to shake hands with the Sarries players before celebrating with his team. Quality player, person and his sportsmanship will be sorely missed.

I'll not miss the Sky commentary teams deification of him! But that doesn't change the fact he is everything a rugby player should be- not just in terms of his ability, but the character and class he has. Thats what sets him apart, not the player he is but the person he is.

Very little you can do against a side like Toulon so thoroughly shot through with both quality and experience. To have a third of your team having already won a World Cup is incredible, really. I agree that Charlie might have been a better choice at 10. When it became obvious that Sarries weren't going to break through via midfield phase play, I think Hodgson's tactical kicking game might have served his side better.

Difficult to argue with the eventual winners though - regardless of the reservations a lot of us have about how that team came together.

VinceWLB wrote:What a sore loser Vunipola, not shaking hands with the opposition, go hide yourself.

How do you know he hasn't now? He will probably be out again to shake hands.

Thought Rolland was pretty poor ref today (for both teams) at the breakdown. Am i right in saying he's retiring?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I disagree asore, there are still some quality English teams there. Leicester have a great team but just need to stay injury free and Northampton will always be there or there abouts.

This is just a golden period for Toulon just like Leinster and Munster and other teams have had. The answer is not simply well "we need to buy more players".

No English team could top their group,now the new competition has it built in that one English team will always be a top seed (funny how that worked out) but I won't be surprised to see the same trend of Irish and French teams dominating the groups.The answer for the English teams is "we need to buy better players" the salary cap means that you can either buy a lot of decent players or a few really good players.

Saracens only got this far because Payne went for the ball and didn't see Goode jumping for it.He then got unlucky than Goode fell on his neck instead of his back,he then got more unlucky that the ref changed how the game of rugby is played by sending him off for doing what he has been trained to do since he first picked up a ball (keep your eyes on the ball).They have a decent distance to travel before they'll win the cup imo.

BlueMuff wrote:Poor final sarries really disappointing! Munster the only team to put it up to Toulon

Notch beat me to the punch.

nathan wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:What a sore loser Vunipola, not shaking hands with the opposition, go hide yourself.

How do you know he hasn't now? He will probably be out again to shake hands.

Thought Rolland was pretty poor ref today (for both teams) at the breakdown. Am i right in saying he's retiring?

Maybe but that was classless from him.

Rolland wasn't convincing indeed but at least he didn't favour one team over the other, i believe that was his last game.

Pete330v2 wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:That was clearly forward whatever interpretation you use (1st pass to Smith)

Flat Hammer, flat

Flippin hell Habana the socceresque drama queen   

It's not been the greatest final but it's been absorbing never the less.

I thought it was forward too … and I'd also have reversed the penalty for Habana's display …

Also can someone clarify if the law on mauls have changed please? I thought if the defending team doesn't engage and then the attacking team gets players in front of the ball carrier it's obstruction i.e. the Toulon line-out just before Jonny's drop goal?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I disagree asore, there are still some quality English teams there. Leicester have a great team but just need to stay injury free and Northampton will always be there or there abouts.

This is just a golden period for Toulon just like Leinster and Munster and other teams have had. The answer is not simply well "we need to buy more players".

No English team could top their group,now the new competition has it built in that one English team will always be a top seed (funny how that worked out) but I won't be surprised to see the same trend of Irish and French teams dominating the groups.The answer for the English teams is "we need to buy better players"  the salary cap means that you can either buy a lot of decent players or a few really good players.

Saracens only got this far because Payne went for the ball and didn't see Goode jumping for it.He then got unlucky than Goode fell on his neck instead of his back,he then got more unlucky that the ref changed how the game of rugby is played by sending him off for doing what he has been trained to do since he first picked up a ball (keep your eyes on the ball).They have a decent distance to travel before they'll win the cup imo.

  Not again, please?

Saracens played pretty poorly today after a great performance against Clermont. Toulon were good today and went a long way to stopping Sarries getting any momentum.

Why do some 'fans' constantly feel the need to have a pop and rake up old arguments?

Ok I see some Irish fans want to claim a moral victory.. Jesus feick. Get over it.

VinceWLB wrote:

nathan wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:What a sore loser Vunipola, not shaking hands with the opposition, go hide yourself.

How do you know he hasn't now? He will probably be out again to shake hands.

Thought Rolland was pretty poor ref today (for both teams) at the breakdown. Am i right in saying he's retiring?

Maybe but that was classless from him.

Rolland wasn't convincing indeed but at least he didn't favour one team over the other, i believe that was his last game.

He's just lost a final, he's young. You have to cut him a bit of slack.

Cyril wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I disagree asore, there are still some quality English teams there. Leicester have a great team but just need to stay injury free and Northampton will always be there or there abouts.

This is just a golden period for Toulon just like Leinster and Munster and other teams have had. The answer is not simply well "we need to buy more players".

No English team could top their group,now the new competition has it built in that one English team will always be a top seed (funny how that worked out) but I won't be surprised to see the same trend of Irish and French teams dominating the groups.The answer for the English teams is "we need to buy better players"  the salary cap means that you can either buy a lot of decent players or a few really good players.

Saracens only got this far because Payne went for the ball and didn't see Goode jumping for it.He then got unlucky than Goode fell on his neck instead of his back,he then got more unlucky that the ref changed how the game of rugby is played by sending him off for doing what he has been trained to do since he first picked up a ball (keep your eyes on the ball).They have a decent distance to travel before they'll win the cup imo.

  Not again, please?

Saracens played pretty poorly today after a great performance against Clermont. Toulon were good today and went a long way to stopping Sarries getting any momentum.

Why do some 'fans' constantly feel the need to have a pop and rake up old arguments?

The usual reason, No Irish teams in the final, probably hard for them to take after their recent success.

Cyril wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I disagree asore, there are still some quality English teams there. Leicester have a great team but just need to stay injury free and Northampton will always be there or there abouts.

This is just a golden period for Toulon just like Leinster and Munster and other teams have had. The answer is not simply well "we need to buy more players".

No English team could top their group,now the new competition has it built in that one English team will always be a top seed (funny how that worked out) but I won't be surprised to see the same trend of Irish and French teams dominating the groups.The answer for the English teams is "we need to buy better players"  the salary cap means that you can either buy a lot of decent players or a few really good players.

Saracens only got this far because Payne went for the ball and didn't see Goode jumping for it.He then got unlucky than Goode fell on his neck instead of his back,he then got more unlucky that the ref changed how the game of rugby is played by sending him off for doing what he has been trained to do since he first picked up a ball (keep your eyes on the ball).They have a decent distance to travel before they'll win the cup imo.

  Not again, please?

Saracens played pretty poorly today after a great performance against Clermont. Toulon were good today and went a long way to stopping Sarries getting any momentum.

Why do some 'fans' constantly feel the need to have a pop and rake up old arguments?

It's my opinion,deal with it.I think Saracens were lucky to get this far and 9 times out of 10 they wouldn't get past Ulster in Ravenhill.They were out of their depth today and it showed.You can disagree with my interpretation of the refs decision but I don't think you can argue it was a freak incident and it handed Saracens a match they were most likely incapable of winning 15 v 15.

Get it a break mate.

nathan wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

nathan wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:What a sore loser Vunipola, not shaking hands with the opposition, go hide yourself.

How do you know he hasn't now? He will probably be out again to shake hands.

Thought Rolland was pretty poor ref today (for both teams) at the breakdown. Am i right in saying he's retiring?

Maybe but that was classless from him.

Rolland wasn't convincing indeed but at least he didn't favour one team over the other, i believe that was his last game.

He's just lost a final, he's young. You have to cut him a bit of slack.

Thought it was a bit odd at first but agree, the guy played out of his skin and must have been absolutely gutted. Certainly cut him some slack for that.

mystiroakey wrote:Ok I see some Irish fans want to claim a moral victory.. Jesus feick. Get over it.

We can only hope Irish rugby can save the world from its current moral malaise.

nathan wrote:


The usual reason, No Irish teams in the final, probably hard for them to take after their recent success.

That's an easy one liner to roll out but it has no depth to it and doesn't really address any of the points I made.Try actually making a reasonable point as you aren't clairvoyant.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Cyril wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I disagree asore, there are still some quality English teams there. Leicester have a great team but just need to stay injury free and Northampton will always be there or there abouts.

This is just a golden period for Toulon just like Leinster and Munster and other teams have had. The answer is not simply well "we need to buy more players".

No English team could top their group,now the new competition has it built in that one English team will always be a top seed (funny how that worked out) but I won't be surprised to see the same trend of Irish and French teams dominating the groups.The answer for the English teams is "we need to buy better players"  the salary cap means that you can either buy a lot of decent players or a few really good players.

Saracens only got this far because Payne went for the ball and didn't see Goode jumping for it.He then got unlucky than Goode fell on his neck instead of his back,he then got more unlucky that the ref changed how the game of rugby is played by sending him off for doing what he has been trained to do since he first picked up a ball (keep your eyes on the ball).They have a decent distance to travel before they'll win the cup imo.

  Not again, please?

Saracens played pretty poorly today after a great performance against Clermont. Toulon were good today and went a long way to stopping Sarries getting any momentum.

Why do some 'fans' constantly feel the need to have a pop and rake up old arguments?

It's my opinion,deal with it.I think Saracens were lucky to get this far and 9 times out of 10 they wouldn't get past Ulster in Ravenhill.They were out of their depth today and it showed.You can disagree with my interpretation of the refs decision but I don't think you can argue it was a freak incident and it handed Saracens a match they were most likely incapable of winning 15 v 15.

You really should change your name to asoreloser.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Cyril wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:I disagree asore, there are still some quality English teams there. Leicester have a great team but just need to stay injury free and Northampton will always be there or there abouts.

This is just a golden period for Toulon just like Leinster and Munster and other teams have had. The answer is not simply well "we need to buy more players".

No English team could top their group,now the new competition has it built in that one English team will always be a top seed (funny how that worked out) but I won't be surprised to see the same trend of Irish and French teams dominating the groups.The answer for the English teams is "we need to buy better players"  the salary cap means that you can either buy a lot of decent players or a few really good players.

Saracens only got this far because Payne went for the ball and didn't see Goode jumping for it.He then got unlucky than Goode fell on his neck instead of his back,he then got more unlucky that the ref changed how the game of rugby is played by sending him off for doing what he has been trained to do since he first picked up a ball (keep your eyes on the ball).They have a decent distance to travel before they'll win the cup imo.

  Not again, please?

Saracens played pretty poorly today after a great performance against Clermont. Toulon were good today and went a long way to stopping Sarries getting any momentum.

Why do some 'fans' constantly feel the need to have a pop and rake up old arguments?

It's my opinion,deal with it.I think Saracens were lucky to get this far and 9 times out of 10 they wouldn't get past Ulster in Ravenhill.They were out of their depth today and it showed.You can disagree with my interpretation of the refs decision but I don't think you can argue it was a freak incident and it handed Saracens a match they were most likely incapable of winning 15 v 15.

I can deal with your opinion. It's just tedious and shows you need to move on. Your players and province will have stopped bleating by now I would imagine.

There are several threads where you can go to continue to bemoan 'The World Against Ulster' and 'Why We Coulda/Shoulda Won'.

Will this raise the Steffon for.England argument again (if it went away)

Steffan bossed the game. We need to pick him. What a waste

mystiroakey wrote:Ok I see some Irish fans want to claim a moral victory.. Jesus feick. Get over it.

Some Irish fans?I think you're referring to me,one poster not a group of them,don't tar all Irish fans with the one brush.Also what moral victory am I claiming.I support Leinster and I think that Toulon would have beaten either Ulster or Clermont in the final even if Ulster had won the QF.i just made a point that I don't think an English team can win the cup because of the salary cap restrictions and gave examples of why I feel Sarries were a bit out of their depth in the final.Of course you're ignoring that and jumping on the Payne incident because you can't let it go for some reason and need to debate the point to death yet again.

Well I think we all saw that coming. Saracens have been good in this championship but it was clear thy don't compare to Toulon.

Billy Vunipolo went right down in my estimations, bad sportsmanship there. He was completely outclassed by Armitage who is probably the best 7 going at the moment. England are letting a gem slip through their fingers there.
Lets just hope we've heard the last of Barnes. The man is infuriating
And Wwy no fairwell applause for Rolland at the Millennium

Well done Johnny, by far my favorite englishman  
Lets just hope we've heard the last of Barnes. The man is infuriating
Why no applause for Rolland at the Millenium

Another great display by Armitage.

Lancaster hasn't completely ruled him out but I don't know what else he can do to be considered. It doesn't help that his best position is the same as our captain's. Having said that he can cover 8 pretty well anyway so if Vunipola or Morgan got injured?

Cyril wrote:
I can deal with your opinion. It's just tedious and shows you need to move on. Your players and province will have stopped bleating by now I would imagine.

There are several threads where you can go to continue to bemoan 'The World Against Ulster' and 'Why We Coulda/Shoulda Won'.

I'm not an Ulster fan,why can't you just disagree with my interpretation of the Payne red card and move on.Address the other points in my post instead of just banging the same old drum.Sarries were out of their depth and no English team can win the European Cup under the current salary cap restrictions imo.If you want to keep debating the Payne red card their are already plenty of threads for that.

Don't tempt me Nathan!   

That was a bit of struggle to get up to watch... except for for Jonny's and Giteau's fine performances. A cut above the rest and so easy to watch... even for a neutral.

Will be interesting to see if Sarries can pick themselves up for Saints. Toulon v Castres should be another good Final as well.

Glad of the win for JW's sake. The guy is pure class.

Not the epic battle I had hoped for, but sometimes final's don't match expectations. Contrary to some here, I thought the ref had a decent game. He tried to let it flow I thought, which is unusual for him.

Habana made a clown of himself with the dramatics. I detest seeing this sort of behaviour in rugby.
I thought the pass for the second try was forward at first, but on second viewing I think it was flat. Not that it matters to the end result. Toulon would have beaten Sarries regardless. I'm not sure if Toulon actually got out of second gear. Sarries were poor.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Cyril wrote:
I can deal with your opinion. It's just tedious and shows you need to move on. Your players and province will have stopped bleating by now I would imagine.

There are several threads where you can go to continue to bemoan 'The World Against Ulster' and 'Why We Coulda/Shoulda Won'.

I'm not an Ulster fan,why can't you just disagree with my interpretation of the Payne red card and move on.Address the other points in my post instead of just banging the same old drum.Sarries were out of their depth and no English team can win the European Cup under the current salary cap restrictions imo.If you want to keep debating the Payne red card their are already plenty of threads for that.

Stop bringing it up then!

Jeez, set up your own thread on whether English sides can win future Euro Cups rather than derailing this one.

I'm sorry there were no Irish sides in the final. I really am. Perhaps the tournament needs to be changed as something is clearly wrong.

Cyril wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Cyril wrote:
I can deal with your opinion. It's just tedious and shows you need to move on. Your players and province will have stopped bleating by now I would imagine.

There are several threads where you can go to continue to bemoan 'The World Against Ulster' and 'Why We Coulda/Shoulda Won'.

I'm not an Ulster fan,why can't you just disagree with my interpretation of the Payne red card and move on.Address the other points in my post instead of just banging the same old drum.Sarries were out of their depth and no English team can win the European Cup under the current salary cap restrictions imo.If you want to keep debating the Payne red card their are already plenty of threads for that.

Stop bringing it up then!

Jeez, set up your own thread on whether English sides can win future Euro Cups rather than derailing this one.

I'm sorry there were no Irish sides in the final. I really am. Perhaps the tournament needs to be changed as something is clearly wrong.

I mentioned it once and you jumped on me,if you had just addressed the actual point of my post or ignored it then the thread wouldn't be derailed.I didn't engage you,I have no interest in conversing with you as you only seem interested in shouting me down but I won't stay quiet just because you tell me to.If you want this to stop then quit replying to me as you only seem interested in an argument.

Ok, let's leave it there chap, for the sake of the thread

GeordieFalcon wrote:Will this raise the Steffon for.England argument again (if it went away)

Toulon lost only one ruck out of 76 and he's one of the reason behind it. Wasnt even playing at flanker. RFU should offer him a central contract and ship in to Quins or another AP club.

Actually we'd quite like him back at London Irish

Wasn't overly impressed with Rolland, particularly at the scrums where I thought Stevens was boring in a lot. I also agree with whoever said about the hands away (or whatever), then it was play on after the turnover.

Good win Toulon. Some of the hits were brilliant to watch.

Risca Rev wrote:Wasn't overly impressed with Rolland, particularly at the scrums where I thought Stevens was boring in a lot. I also agree with whoever said about the hands away (or whatever), then it was play on after the turnover.

Good win Toulon. Some of the hits were brilliant to watch.

Yeah, that happened a few times and must have been really frustrating for the defending side.

I thought Rolland had a bit of a mixed bag. Wasn't great at the breakdown (as above), the scrums improved after the first 20 minutes (and a few warnings). He dealt pretty well with the players (eg Habana incident) and generally the flow wasn't bad (but that may have been allowing some dodgy turnovers).

I still think refs (not just Rolland) are getting too reliant on TMOs for checking out incidents. Having said that when the first saw the Farrell 'high' tackle on Habana at full speed I thought 'yellow' so what do I know! Habana looked a bit shame-faced when that one was reviewed on the big screeen