HC final - Saracens vs Toulon - Cardiff - Wilko vs Farrell.....

First topic message reminder :

Should be a cracker (England vs France) with two of the best teams in the NH playing each other in a celebration of rugby, can't wait to get there and soak up the atmosphere before, during and after the game, roll on 24th May.

Never has there been a final where I wanted both teams to lose so much. Sad times for Euro rugby.

GunsGerms wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:If ever the final represented the death of Euro rugby I doubt two more apt teams could be chosen. No interest in this game whatsoever.

RIP Heineken cup.

So what match would you have been interested in?

A repeat of last year's final?

Anyone but the two most horrible teams in Euro rugby history. Such a final really does mark the demise of this tournament and possibly the beginning of the end for European rugby.

Horrible teams.

Are you really so blinkered and intolerant?

GunsGerms wrote:Never has there been a final where I wanted both teams to lose so much. Sad times for Euro rugby.

The true spirit of the game in full flow!   

Shame they didnt just scrap the Hcup altogether the way it is going. What a joke.

WUM

GunsGerms wrote:

IronMike wrote:What makes them the two most horrible teams in Euro rugby history?

Certainly not Munster and their 10 man rugby that won them their European Cups.

They are both trying to buy the trophy. For me both those teams represent the demise of what makes the Hcup great. Horrible teams that play horrible rugby. Gone are the days of teams with a strong local identity and community spirit.

Toulon have a strong local entity , one you wont find anywhere else in europe. in fact most of their players (wilco, the armitage bros) embrace the Toulon way of life and fit there allright. their fans are not plastic fans, the atmosphere is quite surreal at times.

I dont always like it but I respect it, its the way they are. if you dont like diversity , maybe stick to GAA or something. you are mixing a lot of thing here, RCT has been existing for more than a century...

I'd actually like Toulon to win so that I can say the Blues were the only team to beat them this Heineken Cup  

whocares wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

IronMike wrote:What makes them the two most horrible teams in Euro rugby history?

Certainly not Munster and their 10 man rugby that won them their European Cups.

They are both trying to buy the trophy. For me both those teams represent the demise of what makes the Hcup great. Horrible teams that play horrible rugby. Gone are the days of teams with a strong local identity and community spirit.

Toulon have a strong local entity , one you wont find anywhere else in europe. in fact most of their players (wilco, the armitage bros) embrace the Toulon way of life and fit there allright. their fans are not plastic fans, the atmosphere is quite surreal at times.

I dont always like it but I respect it, its the way they are.  if you dont like diversity , maybe stick to GAA or something. you are mixing a lot of thing here, RCT has been existing for more than a century...

No point trying mate.

The Trolls are out in force today I wonder where the Mods are to stamp on these Bitter guys and stop them de-railing a thread?

GunsGerms wrote:

IronMike wrote:What makes them the two most horrible teams in Euro rugby history?

Certainly not Munster and their 10 man rugby that won them their European Cups.

They are both trying to buy the trophy. For me both those teams represent the demise of what makes the Hcup great. Horrible teams that play horrible rugby. Gone are the days of teams with a strong local identity and community spirit.

Utter garbage.

Now, i'm no fan of either team, but Saracens are on fire. they play almost total rugby. The way they play for each other and the team is enviable. They've hardly lost a match in all competitions this year and it's easy (for most sensible people) to see why. They'll probably beat Toulon in the final but one thing is for sure, had Munster got through, all they'd have in their favour is a 'home' fixture, because the way Saracens are playing, they'd wipe the floor with the Munster team.

Jimpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

IronMike wrote:What makes them the two most horrible teams in Euro rugby history?

Certainly not Munster and their 10 man rugby that won them their European Cups.

They are both trying to buy the trophy. For me both those teams represent the demise of what makes the Hcup great. Horrible teams that play horrible rugby. Gone are the days of teams with a strong local identity and community spirit.

Utter garbage.

Now, i'm no fan of either team, but Saracens are on fire. they play almost total rugby. The way they play for each other and the team is enviable. They've hardly lost a match in all competitions this year and it's easy (for most sensible people) to see why. They'll probably beat Toulon in the final but one thing is for sure, had Munster got through, all they'd have in their favour is a 'home' fixture, because the way Saracens are playing, they'd wipe the floor with the Munster team.

Funnily enough most Munster fans would have been saying the opposite....would have been a walkover....losing to Toulon was the final..

Lol

whocares wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

IronMike wrote:What makes them the two most horrible teams in Euro rugby history?

Certainly not Munster and their 10 man rugby that won them their European Cups.

They are both trying to buy the trophy. For me both those teams represent the demise of what makes the Hcup great. Horrible teams that play horrible rugby. Gone are the days of teams with a strong local identity and community spirit.

Toulon have a strong local entity , one you wont find anywhere else in europe. in fact most of their players (wilco, the armitage bros) embrace the Toulon way of life and fit there allright. their fans are not plastic fans, the atmosphere is quite surreal at times.

I dont always like it but I respect it, its the way they are.  if you dont like diversity , maybe stick to GAA or something. you are mixing a lot of thing here, RCT has been existing for more than a century...

How many Toulon players are from Toulon? I am aware of the history of the club. Its their recent history that is worrying. They also play fairly horrible rugby.

IronMike wrote:I'd actually like Toulon to win so that I can say the Blues were the only team to beat them this Heineken Cup  

Very good!

Jimpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

IronMike wrote:What makes them the two most horrible teams in Euro rugby history?

Certainly not Munster and their 10 man rugby that won them their European Cups.

They are both trying to buy the trophy. For me both those teams represent the demise of what makes the Hcup great. Horrible teams that play horrible rugby. Gone are the days of teams with a strong local identity and community spirit.

Utter garbage.

Now, i'm no fan of either team, but Saracens are on fire. they play almost total rugby. The way they play for each other and the team is enviable. They've hardly lost a match in all competitions this year and it's easy (for most sensible people) to see why. They'll probably beat Toulon in the final but one thing is for sure, had Munster got through, all they'd have in their favour is a 'home' fixture, because the way Saracens are playing, they'd wipe the floor with the Munster team.

Agreed, I'm not a fan of Saracens in general but they are playing very well this season and they are definitely not a boring team to watch, Toulon have the players to play expansively too so it could be a great final.

It will be, lets hope the fans turn out to watch it.

GunsGerms wrote:

whocares wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

IronMike wrote:What makes them the two most horrible teams in Euro rugby history?

Certainly not Munster and their 10 man rugby that won them their European Cups.

They are both trying to buy the trophy. For me both those teams represent the demise of what makes the Hcup great. Horrible teams that play horrible rugby. Gone are the days of teams with a strong local identity and community spirit.

Toulon have a strong local entity , one you wont find anywhere else in europe. in fact most of their players (wilco, the armitage bros) embrace the Toulon way of life and fit there allright. their fans are not plastic fans, the atmosphere is quite surreal at times.

I dont always like it but I respect it, its the way they are.  if you dont like diversity , maybe stick to GAA or something. you are mixing a lot of thing here, RCT has been existing for more than a century...

How many Toulon players are from Toulon? I am aware of the history of the club. Its their recent history that is worrying. They also play fairly horrible rugby.

Chiocci....er....thats about it.

Maybe the local lads were just not good enough.  

I am a Munster fan and I don't hate either team myself. As I said yesterday, I really want Sarries to win but also want Jonny Wilkinson winning.

Not sure about the 'horrible rugby' comments, I have seen Toulon play some breath-taking rugby and what I saw from Sarries on Saturday was brilliant. Both teams deserved of a place in the final and I will still be tuning in to watch it.

Scrumpy wrote:Maybe the local lads were just not good enough.  

Maybe Toulon's money would be better spent developing local talent rather than buying overseas players to the detirment of French and European rugby.

maybe from your perspective Guns. then you might stand a chance against them.

ME-109 wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

IronMike wrote:What makes them the two most horrible teams in Euro rugby history?

Certainly not Munster and their 10 man rugby that won them their European Cups.

They are both trying to buy the trophy. For me both those teams represent the demise of what makes the Hcup great. Horrible teams that play horrible rugby. Gone are the days of teams with a strong local identity and community spirit.

Utter garbage.

Now, i'm no fan of either team, but Saracens are on fire. they play almost total rugby. The way they play for each other and the team is enviable. They've hardly lost a match in all competitions this year and it's easy (for most sensible people) to see why. They'll probably beat Toulon in the final but one thing is for sure, had Munster got through, all they'd have in their favour is a 'home' fixture, because the way Saracens are playing, they'd wipe the floor with the Munster team.

Funnily enough most Munster fans would have been saying the opposite....would have been a walkover....losing to Toulon was the final..

What do ME-109's and Munster have in common?

Both downed in flames...

GunsGerms wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Maybe the local lads were just not good enough.  

Maybe Toulon's money would be better spent developing local talent rather than buying overseas players to the detirment of French and European rugby.

But you must remember that Toulon is just a City not a Province covering a large area of a Country, also it takes a few years to get an academy in place and to see the team reap the rewards of the investment into the local community, which I believe Toulon are already doing.

Stop being a bitter Wum or one of the Irish MODs will be sending you messages telling you to wind your neck in for having a different opinion!   

Scrumpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:I've been to a few HC Finals now and this one coming surely can't be any worse than Toulouse vs Munster, that was dull!

At least Munster is a side with top class local players and a fairly honest budget.

Like local boy Doug Howlett!   

Doug has gone native   

There are some Irish players who could name their price in France (or England), but they turn their back on all that money to stay and play for the provinces.

Those ideals of loyalty appeal to many.

Is the tax rate lower in Ireland so some players (Journeymen) might be better off staying in Ireland anyway, also why would some of them want to play a tough game of rugby every week when they can pick and choose their battles.

ME-109 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

Cyril wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

nathan wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Would be interesting if you added a "none of the above" just to see what the result would be..  

I'm sorry no Irish team got to the final   

you're right there..rugby is the loser all round

Sarries played some excellent rugby in defence and attack. Toulon were fairly poor but you only have to beat what's in front of you. Today's game always had the look of a stodgy affair about it.

true..unless of course you have referees helping you out a fair bit.

of course the ref for the final will be interesting...i wonder who it will be

Yeah, I thought Lobbe was really unlucky to get the yellow. Murray is quite the thespian.

Strange that Zebo's try was awarded without a check too.

Wouldn't say Barnes was helping Munster but there were a few odd decisions in their favour. Luckily Jonny and Delon ensured the best team on the day won.

you are quite right Barnes was definitely not helping Munster but neither were we helping ourselves. Zebo got the ball down so no worries there.

in terms of refs it would seem sarries have certainly a few game changing decisions going in their favour. What did you think of farrells dive into chouly yesterday. No less than will greenwood said he milked that. Overall a 21 point turnaround in terms of the ref, again based on Barnes and greenwoods analysis. I wonder how mr Rolland will do in the final...

 
Not on any of the camera angles I saw during the replays... Luckily it had no bearing on the end result as it would have exploded in controversy if it had.
 
As for the Jonny v Farrell debate... the one reason I didn't want to see this line-up in the final... Media hype going to go mad. Anyone would swear they are the best fly-halfs in the world, when in reality they are an over hyped youngster who's only an international through his dad's intervention and a has-been... Its really insulting to the other 22 players per team, when its all about Jonny and Owen... See how good they are without the pack doing their job.  

When did Irish posters get so bitter?

It should be a good final.

Sarries are playing top class rugby, with guys like Goode, Farrel, Fraser, Krus, George, Wyles, Brits all either having come through their academy or playing the majority of their senior rugby for the one club.

Scrumpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Maybe the local lads were just not good enough.  

Maybe Toulon's money would be better spent developing local talent rather than buying overseas players to the detirment of French and European rugby.

But you must remember that Toulon is just a City not a Province covering a large area of a Country, also it takes a few years to get an academy in place and to see the team reap the rewards of the investment into the local community, which I believe Toulon are already doing.

Stop being a bitter Wum or one of the Irish MODs will be sending you messages telling you to wind your neck in for having a different opinion!   

Toulon has an urban area of just under 600K. They are not interested in using players from their academy. An ex-academy player is now with Toulouse. They prefer to stockpile players though. With the backrow talents they already have, they tried to also get Sean O'Brien & Jamie Heaslip (who turned them down because more than likely they liked to play every now and then)!

yappysnap wrote:When did Irish posters get so bitter?

When ERC stopped helping them!

but to be fair there is a number of decent Irish posters (rugby fans) around that appreciate that this could be a cracker of a final.

Sin é wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Maybe the local lads were just not good enough.  

Maybe Toulon's money would be better spent developing local talent rather than buying overseas players to the detirment of French and European rugby.

But you must remember that Toulon is just a City not a Province covering a large area of a Country, also it takes a few years to get an academy in place and to see the team reap the rewards of the investment into the local community, which I believe Toulon are already doing.

Stop being a bitter Wum or one of the Irish MODs will be sending you messages telling you to wind your neck in for having a different opinion!   

Toulon has an urban area of just under 600K. They are not interested in using players from their academy. An ex-academy player is now with Toulouse. They prefer to stockpile players though. With the backrow talents they already have, they tried to also get Sean O'Brien & Jamie Heaslip (who turned them down because more than likely they liked to play every now and then)!

My concern with Halfpenny going there next season... Will he get enough game time... we'll just have to wait and see..

Not on any of the camera angles I saw during the replays... Luckily it had no bearing on the end result as it would have exploded in controversy if it had.

Was shown on TV - camera down the touchline (facing the Toulon goalline). clearly grounded.

Sin é wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Maybe the local lads were just not good enough.  

Maybe Toulon's money would be better spent developing local talent rather than buying overseas players to the detirment of French and European rugby.

But you must remember that Toulon is just a City not a Province covering a large area of a Country, also it takes a few years to get an academy in place and to see the team reap the rewards of the investment into the local community, which I believe Toulon are already doing.

Stop being a bitter Wum or one of the Irish MODs will be sending you messages telling you to wind your neck in for having a different opinion!   

Toulon has an urban area of just under 600K. They are not interested in using players from their academy. An ex-academy player is now with Toulouse. They prefer to stockpile players though. With the backrow talents they already have, they tried to also get Sean O'Brien & Jamie Heaslip (who turned them down because more than likely they liked to play every now and then)!

Rubbish reasoning. Lol

Scrumpy wrote:

yappysnap wrote:When did Irish posters get so bitter?

When ERC stopped helping them!

but to be fair there is a number of decent Irish posters (rugby fans) around that appreciate that this could be a cracker of a final.

Finals are rarely crackers. The most entertaining one was probably Leinster v Northampton a few years go. Other than that, they are generally pretty boring and rely heavily on the Sky Hype Machine.

Thank god Munster didn't make it this year then!

Tell me one top class 10 who doesn't/didn't have a good pack behind him?

Also I think your estimate of Toulons population of 600k is a little off its more like 170k.   

Scrumpy wrote:Thank god Munster didn't make it this year then!

Your right...even having Sarries pump their chant in the Millenium stadium would not have drowned out the support. Cant wait for the atmosphere at the final now ...   

GunsGerms wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Maybe the local lads were just not good enough.  

Maybe Toulon's money would be better spent developing local talent rather than buying overseas players to the detirment of French and European rugby.

appreciate your concern about french rugby...however the need to buy oversea talent (specially the one that is not concerned by international games anymore) is triggered by the fact that those teams have to play in two tough competitions while their pool of local players is relatively small (ie city ) and they get no support from the FFR. basically it is a way to compete with the big fat Irish provinces with their large player pool and local union support Habana in Toulon? blame Leinster

Also french teams need a bigger salary cap because they also pay more taxes than their UK and irish counterpart.

wonder how many times, between now and the final in 4 weeks time, we are going to have to read that Saracens aren't a proper club because they dont have as many fans as the irish provinces.

Just imagine how many more times it would be if there was an irish team actually involved...  

ME-109 wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Thank god Munster didn't make it this year then!

Your right...even having Sarries pump their chant in the Millenium stadium would not have drowned out the support. Cant wait for the atmosphere at the final now ...   

No doubt there will be a number of Munster fans there singing their songs as I'm sure there will be many other fans from a number of teams that want to watch two of the highest ranking teams in the NH do battle.

Sarries are ranked 12th in Europe. In all fairness they need a fair bit of help to get to the final.

No 9 I am sorry but it's just idiotic to call Farrell overhyped and Wilkinson a has been. It's very disrespectful. For a youngster so far Farrell has done very well in his career. Jonny Wilkinson has had a excellent career so far and it's not over yet.

Perhaps if you watched some rugby you might actually learn something.

As for Toulon - it's the lack of Frenchman in their side which is a concern plus their poor academy. At least at Saracens we have a strong English contingent, good English coaches who have come from within and an excellent academy.

I would say that Sarries do contribute to the English cause with their fair share and of course that should be the case

Guns germs of course the rankings should be taken really seriously! Biarritz are 5th. Cardiff are 11th.

GunsGerms wrote:Sarries are ranked 12th in Europe. In all fairness they need a fair bit of help to get to the final.

So they are the underdogs, I'm sure neutral fans will be behind them cheering them on against the big bad Toulon.

Have you watch Sarries play?
They have been awesome over the last few weeks and are good value for money to go and watch them, their Euro ranking is also based on the fact that they haven’t been gifted a HC spot over the years unlike others who have failed miserably this year.

GunsGerms wrote:Sarries are ranked 12th in Europe. In all fairness they need a fair bit of help to get to the final.

not any more. that sh1t ERC rankings system no longer applies.

for a more realistic list why dont you cast your one eye over this one.

http://www.eurorugby.com/index.php

Pos Club Country Rating (indexed) Change

1 Saracens England 100.00 no change
2 Toulon France 96.68 up 1
3 Leinster Ireland 94.46 down 1
4 Bath England 89.68 up 1
5 Northampton Saints England 88.86 up 1
6 Munster Ireland 86.09 down 2
7 Glasgow Warriors Scotland 84.46 up 1
8 Ulster Ireland 83.74 down 1
9 ASM Clermont Auvergne France 80.80 no change
10 Racing Metro 92 France 76.55 up 1
11 Leicester Tigers England 76.27 up 1
12 Harlequins England 75.79 down 2
13 Sale Sharks England 73.73 no change
14 Toulouse France 71.85 no change
15 Montpellier France 70.49 no change
16 Castres Olympique France 69.28 no change
17 Stade Francais France 64.18 no change
18 Begles-Bordeaux France 62.36 no change
19 Ospreys Wales 61.50 no change
20 Brive France 61.44 no change

quinsforever wrote:wonder how many times, between now and the final in 4 weeks time, we are going to have to read that Saracens aren't a proper club because they dont have as many fans as the irish provinces.

Just imagine how many more times it would be if there was an irish team actually involved...  

Few clubs are able to match the support the Irish provinces get, so I wouldn't expect many to even try and match them.
What I do find surprising is that a team like Saracens can get to the final of a Heineken Cup without attracting a few bandwagoners.

Toulon won the Reichel A (elite french U21 championship) in 2010. players like Fickou , Maestri and Bruni (all internationals) are from their academy. Before that they produced the likes of Dominici, Delaigue and Mignoni.
Their academy is not poor but still has room for improvement though.

Knew Sarries would beat Clermont straight after the Ulster v Sarries game.


 Clermont have been lucky lately at home and away they have been poor, didn't see the scoreline coming but the French were poor vs a mean in form sarries team with a  huge Defence.


 But Toulon are a different kettle of fish to Clermont and have a better away record, and don't have the habit of choking.


 Toulon by 10 with Giteau and S.Armitage scoring a tries for Toulon and Strettle scoring a try for Sarries.


 Wilkinson will get 4 penalties missing 1 and 1 DG (also getting both conversions), Farrell will get 4 penalties and wont miss, and also 1 conversion. 


 29 - 19 to Toulon.


  

Irish provinces have enjoyed a hard earned period of dominance in european rugby, but now that period may well be coming to an end, just like Leicester/Wasps period a few years back.

And the end result is small but very vocal bunch of irish supporters seemingly blaming everything else for the failure of the provinces this year and proclaiming the death of euro rugby. This in turn leads to the usual English suspects getting over excited and chaos on the forum.

As for the death of euro rugby we have a final made up of the defending champions and the current top English(mostly) team, a team who have been breaking scoring records on the way. They have both earned their places.

Why have English/French clubs got to match the support of the Irish Provinces again?

If Sarries/Toulon only bring along 5000 fans each then so what, they are in the European final.