HC final - Saracens vs Toulon - Cardiff - Wilko vs Farrell.....

First topic message reminder :

Should be a cracker (England vs France) with two of the best teams in the NH playing each other in a celebration of rugby, can't wait to get there and soak up the atmosphere before, during and after the game, roll on 24th May.

Can you blame them though for relying on the TMO?

Sin é wrote:Can you blame them though for relying on the TMO?

I was just editing my post when you posted (see last para above).

No, I can't blame them really. They have the option and it's easier to pass it on and be absolutely sure. Can't blame them at all.

RFU need to pay for Armitage to be a teams star player. He is good dust!

There's been a lot of tribute payed to various retiring legends; well I'd like to pay tribute to another; Alain Rolland. World class ref, massive contribution to the game. Well done Alain.

Notch wrote:There's been a lot of tribute payed to various retiring legends; well I'd like to pay tribute to another; Alain Rolland. World class ref, massive contribution to the game. Well done Alain.

Here comes another bun fight.....

  

What's the story with the Sarries fans transport arriving late for the game? Have to feel bad for them.

Notch wrote:There's been a lot of tribute payed to various retiring legends; well I'd like to pay tribute to another; Alain Rolland. World class ref, massive contribution to the game. Well done Alain.

Agree on this. Very good referee and contributed a lot to the game. Hope he enjoys his retirement.

Toulon. Class act. Worthy winners. Congrats.

Toulon proved they was the better team today. Wilkinson pulling the strings for toulon, agreat play for the Mat Guetou try.

He (Wilkinson) will be very hard to replace for toulon for next year that is.

A well deserved win for Toulon.

Also with Stephen Armatage getting Man of the Match, do you think he could be in England plans for the Rugby World Cup next Year?

I actually thought S. Armitage had a relatively quite game by his standards which is a testament of how good he is.
I would have given the motm to Smith, he was just immense both in attack and in defence.

Interesting that Munster gave Toulon a far better game and that was in France.

Omg sarries lost, Rolland was crap and clearly anti sarries and and zzzzzzzzzz. Boys against men apparently. Should have been obvious after the Toulouse games really.

I actually thought Rolland had a good match, Nice for him to go out that way,

Happy to see my man Juan Smith win a HC medal, thought his career was done and dusted, Habana had a poor game and flopped around like a ballerina every time the ball came near him.

Bakkies, Burden and Danie all had good games.

But Juan is still the man.

Lack of class by me-109 and asoreleftshoulder but that's nothing new.

As for the game. Congrats to Toulon. Clearly the better side on the day. 1st try by Toulon was due to really intelligent work by Giteau. Kicking game was much superior, they also won the breakdown battle.

With Saracens it seemed like they had stage fright - too many errors ( Toulon defence was very good though), decision making seemed poorly and an over reliance on using Billy as a ball carrier ( he got turned over/penalised on a few occasions).

Farrell looked out of sorts, looked like he pulled something in training, never looked right. Him and Wigglesworth failed to add any creativity/ decision making. Plus his stupid challenge on Habana shows his immaturity still - Habana was a fool to dive though.

Personally I would have brought on Charlie and Neil when Saracens were only 4 points down, not 17! I thought that was a really poor call by the coaches.

I would say the turning point was the try by Toulon during the YC stage. As I said it was great play by Giteau and seemed to give Toulon more confidence. Saracens in comparison hopelessly wasted that YC period - they didn't try to be bold and attack, nope they just hung back repeatedly kicking it. Poor decision making again.

Jonny showed why he is so highly thought of. Completely outclassed Farrell. Calm,collected, nailed every kick etc.

Rolland had one of his better games. Still mostly a stodgy fest - certainly in the first half which was unfortunately down to him blowing up and going to the tmo every other minute.

was anyone else slightly underwhelmed by that match as a neutral? A few big hits aside just a group of mercenaries edging a poorly refereed stop start march. Really disturbed by how much our sport is going like football, teams buying success, players diving in matches, are the traditional values of the game (pride in representing your local club/province/region) being eroded?

Good analysis Beshocked, fair play to you. A step at a time for Saracens so maybe next year?
As you pointed out Toulon kicking was also very good (on top of their good breakdown work). Drew Mitchell in particular impressed me. Game was won in the 1st 20 minutes when Saracens huge pressure almost suffocated Toulon but failed. Bit similar to Munster and other teams before who were within a shout come the hour but folded afterwards.

Lets hope we never have to comment in a derogatory way again about the MS pitch.

Not for the first time it effected the quality of the game.

I would have preferred the full plastic like the Arms Park and the Allianz, however they've gone for the semi same as the Twickenham pitch - which must still be a risk with the roof and all?

Beshocked, I said before the start of the match that the Farrell / Wigglesworth combination was not the right call for this match. Hodgson, for me, was by far and away the better option to start this match. By half time it was very clear that this was not working and Saracens were still very much in the match and it was then that Saracens needed to make the change so I agree that it was very poor coaching from Saracens.

Toulon were there for the taking and it was a distinct lack of dynamism from the half backs that cost Saracens yesterday.

I am not a 'hater' of Farrell but I honestly cannot see the hype surrounding him. His petulance will also cost England in a big match one day as well.

beshocked wrote:Lack of class by me-109 and asoreleftshoulder but that's nothing new.

As for the game. Congrats to Toulon. Clearly the better side on the day. 1st try by Toulon was due to really intelligent work by Giteau. Kicking game was much superior, they also won the breakdown battle.

With Saracens it seemed like they had stage fright - too many errors ( Toulon defence was very good though), decision making seemed poorly and an over reliance on using Billy as a ball carrier ( he got turned over/penalised on a few occasions).

Farrell looked out of sorts, looked like he pulled something in training, never looked right. Him and Wigglesworth failed to add any creativity/ decision making. Plus his stupid challenge on Habana shows his immaturity still - Habana was a fool to dive though.

Personally I would have brought on Charlie and Neil when Saracens were only 4 points down, not 17! I thought that was a really poor call by the coaches.

I would say the turning point was the try by Toulon during the YC stage. As I said it was great play by Giteau and seemed to give Toulon more confidence. Saracens in comparison hopelessly wasted that YC period - they didn't try to be bold and attack, nope they just hung back repeatedly kicking it. Poor decision making again.

Jonny showed why he is so highly thought of. Completely outclassed Farrell. Calm,collected, nailed every kick etc.

Rolland had one of his better games. Still mostly a stodgy fest - certainly in the first half which was unfortunately down to him blowing up and going to the tmo every other minute.

+100 Beshocked, that writeup deserved to be seen all over again, a very accurate analysis.
The last sentence in particular points out exactly what's ruining the game at the moment. The TMO should be only ever used for scoring decisions and leave the foul play decisions up to citing panels. Refs should be doing their jobs and will always make mistakes, it's a human trait.

Anyway, that aside well done to a dominant Toulon, worthy champs and hard luck Sarries, you came up against the immovable object on the day, on a different day it could have been different. You will have to get all excited again for the AP final so it's still a great time for you.

GavinDragon wrote:was anyone else slightly underwhelmed by that match as a neutral? A few big hits aside just a group of mercenaries edging a poorly refereed stop start march. Really disturbed by how much our sport is going like football, teams buying success, players diving in matches, are the traditional values of the game (pride in representing your local club/province/region) being eroded?

I was worried about it beforehand but the first 20 min aside it was a decent enough contest imo.

As for your 2nd point, it is beyond words how much i would have wanted Nigel Owens to ref this one and tell Habana after his dive: "The soccer final is on tonight"

I have also noticed Saracens players over exaggerating injuries like Brits after Burden's legit hit or the 2nd row after Lobbe's mistake.

Biltong wrote:Happy to see my man Juan Smith win a HC medal, thought his career was done and dusted, Habana had a poor game and flopped around like a ballerina every time the ball came near him.

Bakkies, Burden and Danie all had good games.

But Juan is still the man.

SA call up possibly? He looks to be fit and firing!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Biltong wrote:Happy to see my man Juan Smith win a HC medal, thought his career was done and dusted, Habana had a poor game and flopped around like a ballerina every time the ball came near him.

Bakkies, Burden and Danie all had good games.

But Juan is still the man.

SA call up possibly?  He looks to be fit and firing!

He fought a brutal personal battle to rehab his way back.  I am very familiar with his med file and the odds were stacked against him in a way which virtually defies possibility.  The man has my complete respect.

beshocked wrote:Lack of class by me-109 and asoreleftshoulder but that's nothing new.

As for the game. Congrats to Toulon. Clearly the better side on the day. 1st try by Toulon was due to really intelligent work by Giteau. Kicking game was much superior, they also won the breakdown battle.

With Saracens it seemed like they had stage fright - too many errors ( Toulon defence was very good though), decision making seemed poorly and an over reliance on using Billy as a ball carrier ( he got turned over/penalised on a few occasions).

Farrell looked out of sorts, looked like he pulled something in training, never looked right. Him and Wigglesworth failed to add any creativity/ decision making. Plus his stupid challenge on Habana shows his immaturity still - Habana was a fool to dive though.

Personally I would have brought on Charlie and Neil when Saracens were only 4 points down, not 17! I thought that was a really poor call by the coaches.

I would say the turning point was the try by Toulon during the YC stage. As I said it was great play by Giteau and seemed to give Toulon more confidence. Saracens in comparison hopelessly wasted that YC period - they didn't try to be bold and attack, nope they just hung back repeatedly kicking it. Poor decision making again.

Jonny showed why he is so highly thought of. Completely outclassed Farrell. Calm,collected, nailed every kick etc.

Rolland had one of his better games. Still mostly a stodgy fest - certainly in the first half which was unfortunately down to him blowing up and going to the tmo every other minute.

Don't see what I said that was lacking in class,just gave an honest opinion that was consistent with my views before the match.I told you that Saracens weren't good enough to beat Toulon,now if I wanted to descend to your level (which I do) I would say the ones lacking in class yesterday were Saracens.

VinceWLB wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:was anyone else slightly underwhelmed by that match as a neutral? A few big hits aside just a group of mercenaries edging a poorly refereed stop start march. Really disturbed by how much our sport is going like football, teams buying success, players diving in matches, are the traditional values of the game (pride in representing your local club/province/region) being eroded?

I was worried about it beforehand but the first 20 min aside it was a decent enough contest imo.

As for your 2nd point, it is beyond words how much i would have wanted Nigel Owens to ref this one and tell Habana after his dive: "The soccer final is on tonight"

I have also noticed Saracens players over exaggerating injuries like Brits after Burden's legit hit or the 2nd row after Lobbe's mistake.

You don't think perhaps taking a 'legit' shoulder to the cheat might wind someone? Or falling from height onto their back?

Exaggerating injuries is in your head

In all honesty I was frustrated watching the game.

The scrums was a major frustration in the first half, Toulon's execution on kick restarts were very poor.

Attack wise the game was very predictable and the rucks were very slow.

The outstanding feature of the game was defence, but then slow ball and poor vision and predictability in attack made defence and marking a man a lot easier.

Tackle of the day was Burden on Brits.

Dive of the day went to Habana.

Play of the day Juan Smith and Lobbe.

Asoreleftshoulder for a change you could say something constructive instead of reminding us of your chip on the shoulder.

Thank you Pete. Yes on a different day perhaps.

Nacho Jones agree. Farrell is still a young man who needs to grow up. Should get advice from Jonny. Hodgson I agree would have been the better choice.

Who cares thanks. For Saracens to beat Toulon they must be more competitive at the breakdown.

beshocked wrote:Asoreleftshoulder for a change you could say something constructive instead of reminding us of your chip on the shoulder.

Thank you Pete. Yes on a different day perhaps.

Nacho Jones agree. Farrell is still a young man who needs to grow up. Should get advice from Jonny. Hodgson I agree would have been the better choice.

Who cares thanks. For Saracens to beat Toulon they must be more competitive at the breakdown.

I have already said the English sides need to loosen the salary cap to compete with the French,that's constructive.In my opinion no English team can compete in Europe until this happens,just look at the pools this year the only English teams that got through were runners up.Now that the PRL managed to rig the new comp so that there will always be an English team with a top seed (even though on merit they don't deserve it) you might have a chance of winning a group but it will be rare enough as there will be some really tough groups.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

beshocked wrote:Asoreleftshoulder for a change you could say something constructive instead of reminding us of your chip on the shoulder.

Thank you Pete. Yes on a different day perhaps.

Nacho Jones agree. Farrell is still a young man who needs to grow up. Should get advice from Jonny. Hodgson I agree would have been the better choice.

Who cares thanks. For Saracens to beat Toulon they must be more competitive at the breakdown.

I have already said the English sides need to loosen the salary cap to compete with the French,that's constructive.In my opinion no English team can compete in Europe until this happens,just look at the pools this year the only English teams that got through were runners up.Now that the PRL managed to rig the new comp so that there will always be an English team with a top seed (even though on merit they don't deserve it) you might have a chance of winning a group but it will be rare enough as there will be some really tough groups.

I don't understand where you're getting this from. Toulon looks to be the top side in Europe by a decent margin at the moment but other than that there are a fair few sides at a similar level. Sarries destroyed Clermont who most would say are right up there too.

Winning your group doesn't mean squat if you fail in the knock-out stages, as Irish sides found out this year.

To say English sides can't 'compete' with the French is a bit silly and ignores evidence.

I assume you don't think Irish sides can 'compete' now either?

There's one front runner out there (Toulon) but there's no overall French dominance.

Cyril wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

beshocked wrote:Asoreleftshoulder for a change you could say something constructive instead of reminding us of your chip on the shoulder.

Thank you Pete. Yes on a different day perhaps.

Nacho Jones agree. Farrell is still a young man who needs to grow up. Should get advice from Jonny. Hodgson I agree would have been the better choice.

Who cares thanks. For Saracens to beat Toulon they must be more competitive at the breakdown.

I have already said the English sides need to loosen the salary cap to compete with the French,that's constructive.In my opinion no English team can compete in Europe until this happens,just look at the pools this year the only English teams that got through were runners up.Now that the PRL managed to rig the new comp so that there will always be an English team with a top seed (even though on merit they don't deserve it) you might have a chance of winning a group but it will be rare enough as there will be some really tough groups.

I don't understand where you're getting this from. Toulon looks to be the top side in Europe by a decent margin at the moment but other than that there are a fair few sides at a similar level. Sarries destroyed Clermont who most would say are right up there too.

Winning your group doesn't mean squat if you fail in the knock-out stages, as Irish sides found out this year.

To say English sides can't 'compete' with the French is a bit silly and ignores evidence.

I assume you don't think Irish sides can 'compete' now either?

There's one front runner out there (Toulon) but there's no overall French dominance.

I get it from recent evidence,English sides look poor in comparison to the Irish and French.Saracens lost twice to Toulouse and only beat Ulster due to playing against 14 men for 75 minutes.Leicester lost twice to Ulster.Northampton managed to get one win against Leinster but slipped up against the other teams where Leinster didn't.

Winning your group means you were probably the best team in it,if you can't be the best team in your group what chance have you of winning the competition.Not much chance imo unless something changes radically between the pools and knockouts or you get a huge slice of luck as the English sides found out this year.

I'll park this discussion as it's derailing the thread but I made this point once in a reply to Leinsterfan4life and have only kept going as other posters have engaged me on it or else aimed a dig at me like beshocked did with his "lack of class" comment.

If you want to continue this we can start another thread or go to pm.

Nah, just leave it. Like other posters have said it's not worth discussing anything seriously with you.

Cyril wrote:Nah, just leave it. Like other posters have said it's not worth discussing anything seriously with you.

I have gone to lengths to flesh out my opinions with examples whereas you have just left one liners and insults behind you.I'm obviously the one not worth debating with.   

I haven't insulted you at all though I do agree with those who say you lack class.

Just getting a bit sick of you coming on here to have a pop at Sarries and the English clubs. Everyone else (apart from you and ME-109) have given some respect to the defeated side.

All you do is drag up old grievances and talk about how lucky/rubbish English clubs have been.

Anyway, this isn't getting anywhere, is it?

Cyril wrote:I haven't insulted you at all though I do agree with those who say you lack class.

Just getting a bit sick of you coming on here to have a pop at Sarries and the English clubs. Everyone else (apart from you and ME-109) have given some respect to the defeated side.

All you do is drag up old grievances and talk about how lucky/rubbish English clubs have been.

Anyway, this isn't getting anywhere, is it?

I'll repeat the point you keep missing.I made one comment in response to another poster and it you keep engaging me on this,if you could resist the urge to argue and tell me I'm wrong while providing no rebuttal to my points then this wouldn't be going on.

I'm drawing a line under this 'cos we ain't gonna agree
_______________________________________________

If Saracens had won, they would have been the first team ever to have won the competition from being 8th seed. They are not dissimilar to Ulster in 2012 when we reached the final- also as 8th seed. There are actually a large number of a parallels.

We each had our one big win against a European powerhouse which shows the side does have class and potential (Saracens over Clermont, Ulster putting 40 points on Leicester Tigers) but they didn't show the consistency across the tournament (Ulster also lost 2 group stage games) and had a fair dose of good luck on the way to the Final. Saracens with the Payne red card and Nigel Owens making a few big calls in their favour at the start of the ASM game, Ulster with drawing Edinburgh in the semi and not having Afoa sent off in the quarter against Munster. Thats sport. Sometimes you have a bit of good luck, sometimes bad. Ulster 2014 are definitely better than Ulster 2012 but we had some bad luck this year. It's not a criticism to say Saracens had some very good luck along the way that helped them into a Final. I've been a fan of an Ulster side that had similar luck in a Cup run and I don't care who knows it. Doesn't mean Saracens are a bad side either, but they were found out a bit by a better one on the day. Again, I know that pain.

Because the main parallel I think between Ulster in 2012 and Saracens in 2014 is they came a cropper in the Final against a better team that they simply couldn't find a way to hurt or break down. In the end neither final was close. Toulon are indisputably the best side in Europe in 2014.

VinceWLB wrote:I would have given the motm to Smith, he was just immense both in attack and in defence.

Jiffy said that on twitter (I believe). I would be inclined to agree

Risca Rev wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:I would have given the motm to Smith, he was just immense both in attack and in defence.

Jiffy said that on twitter (I believe). I would be inclined to agree

I think there were a few gents who could have been given that award. I had originally thought it would be given to Jonny as the emotional, retiring hero, who did indeed play very well. Giteau also played very well. But can't argue with Juan Smith or Armitage. Smith's tolerance for pain must be extraordinary.

Surely Juan Smith doesn't need any more awards?

ME-109 wrote:Omg sarries lost, Rolland was crap and clearly anti sarries and and zzzzzzzzzz. Boys against men apparently. Should have been obvious after the Toulouse games really.

Not exactly a controversial statement...

ME-109 wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Omg sarries lost, Rolland was crap and clearly anti sarries and and zzzzzzzzzz. Boys against men apparently. Should have been obvious after the Toulouse games really.

Not exactly a controversial statement...

ME-109, why do you think those results against Toulouse are more representative of Saracens level than their destruction of last year's finalists Clermont?

I agree Saracens performed poorly but they were worse than I expected.

Because all Toulouse did was put their fattest players on the pitch and shut up shop, and when eventually Sarries made mistakes only played rugby then..that is/was a fairly poor Toulouse team. I just couldnt see Sarries troubling Toulon and felt everything would have to go their way to win. Except for Toulons poor enough front row it could have been worse.

Clermont was a great result for Sarries however Clermont are the biggest bunch of chokers going and they have just been falling apart recently..the loss to Castres a couple of weeks ago at home is a more shocking result for them and just shows where they are at (or going) at the moment.

Edit...also the foreign legion in Toulon clearly had a desire to win the HCup over and above a team with maybe 50% french players, I could see Castres winning next week because of it.

GavinDragon wrote:was anyone else slightly underwhelmed by that match as a neutral? ?

Me. Dull game for what it was. Should have been better

Munchkin wrote:What's the story with the Sarries fans transport arriving late for the game? Have to feel bad for them.

Totally chaotic organization by the club - a lot of fans missed large chunks of the game

Read this
http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s104.htm?107,14764789,page=1

Totally unacceptable from the club

 Putting aside our own views for one moment I hope everyone can say a fond fairwell to 3 outstanding servants of the game

Rolland
Borthwick
and of course Wilkinson.

You can all be proud of your record

As to the game itself Toulon simply had too much - Saracens players were simply not as good and not allowed to play.

Reality is Toulon are the master of Europe now but a lot will ride on how they replace Wilkinoson next year.

England have to find a way of playing Armitage in the backrow - in fact I'll go further he MUST play if they are to have any chance of contesting a WC final next year.

A surprisingly enjoyable game. Really thought this was Saracens year but Toulon had too much power and really never looked like loosing. Their backrow really destroyed Saracens and apart from the scrum were dominant in every aspect. Giteau and  Mitchell really impressed out wide too. Ridiculously physical game and the Toulon juggernaut will take some stopping over the next few years.

Would loved to have seen an Irish side (Ulster! ) lift the final HEC trophy but am delighted for Jonny Wilkinson to end his great career on such a high.  

A mention for Borthwick and Rolland too.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Munchkin wrote:What's the story with the Sarries fans transport arriving late for the game? Have to feel bad for them.

Totally chaotic organization by the club - a lot of fans missed large chunks of the game

Read this
http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s104.htm?107,14764789,page=1

Totally unacceptable from the club

wow, hard luck for the fans. seems that the best way to get into Wales is by plane! (guesst he bank holiday weekend didnt help the traffic).

I see a lot of claims that Toulon inevitably steamrollered everyone this year but wasn't their season seriously off the rails at one point?

Here's Drew Mitchell:

Despite what’s written up and so on, we haven’t had the best season. There was a point where our coach said we may have to start looking ahead to next year, because we weren’t going that well.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/rugby/toulons-heineken-cup-triumph-a-breakthrough-victory-for-former-wallaby-star-drew-mitchell/story-fnibc42r-1226930872464

I like the way Mitchell is delighted by the result because, as he says, “It’s actually my first win in senior football, I have never made any grand finals or won anything before.”

I was gutted watching the game as an England fan.

JW showing he is still a cut above Farrell and armitage man of match who won't/can't be picked for England.