Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[Duty281]

First topic message reminder :

Instead of a protest vote, then its better to spoil your ballot.

Ukip are dangerous because some people actually believe what they say, and they target the middle classes in areas of law multi culturalism - ( if thats a word). And as gets shown every now and then, the Councillors they put up have been shown as a bit racist. But its easy for them to make grand statements, because realistically they will not get voted in and have to back up the statements they have made.  

Have no fear, the nutters are getting kicked out at regular intervals.

And some people may believe what they say for, a lot of the time, it's common sense.

[Diggers]

That article touches on nothing real BOB.  Its just trying to make out that if Scotland went on its own it would be ok even if it had its own currency using Ireland as an example- we all know it may be- but we will all be worse off as a result. People with a lack of understanding might buy into it- But they wont have a clue about what any of the figures really and truly represent.

Worse off financially possibly/probably. But that's not the only criteria.

[Bob_the_Job]

Would we lose all our potatoes too?

Absolutely. You'd be a chip free zone in no time.

[super_realist]

shame, I do like a chip roll

[Bob_the_Job]

That article touches on nothing real BOB.  Its just trying to make out that if Scotland went on its own it would be ok even if it had its own currency using Ireland as an example- we all know it may be- but we will all be worse off as a result. People with a lack of understanding might buy into it- But they wont have a clue about what any of the figures really and truly represent.

Well I'm just delighted we have the font of all things economic here on this board to show them the error of their ways.

Again..I'm not endorsing the article, just putting S_R right. Frankly, I think the decision the Scots make is beyond logic and has become a mostly emotive one, so who knows how it will turn out. Usually people are afraid of change, but Scottish independence has been on the agenda for so long it now probably feels familiar and thus less alien to a lot of the voters.

[mystiroakey]

Bob that article doesn't argue against SR's point.

If to become Independent you have to be bailed out-well.....- its like a 20 year old moving out but the parents paying for his/her rent..

[Bob_the_Job]

Mysti. Is Ireland bankrupt?

[super_realist]

It's a stupid article. It's squabbling over 0.02% in terms of the interest repayment. Like Tony Blair and John Prescott arguing over who has the ugliest wife.

The UK, at least has the capacity to generate wealth in recovery mode. I'm not sure how Ireland creates an income.

[mystiroakey]

Mysti.  Is Ireland bankrupt?

it got bailed out by the eurozone and the UK before it could have gone bankrupt

[Bob_the_Job]

It's a stupid article. It's squabbling over 0.02% in terms of the interest repayment. Like Tony Blair and John Prescott arguing over who has the ugliest wife.

The UK, at least has the capacity to generate wealth in recovery mode. I'm not sure how Ireland creates an income.

Agreed. Not bankrupt, but fragile and not that scalable.

Tony Blair. Hands down. And I've not even seen Prescott's wife.

Confession time too. I actually meant link to this article HERE   

[mystiroakey]

ok well at least you have actually linked an article that backs your point up this time- haven't read it- but the title has stated what you said!

[super_realist]

Where did the spud munchers generate 115bn so quickly? Have they taken another compound loan?

[mystiroakey]

well they must have- they cant print money and quantitative ease due to using the EURO and there is no way they have been reducing there debt by enough to pay that sort of money without more loans, I cant think or haven't heard of any assets sold. Have they privatised anything?

[Diggers]

Have they privatised anything?

The crisp factories? Chips shops?

[Bob_the_Job]

Where did the spud munchers generate 115bn so quickly? Have they taken another compound loan?

Selling chips to the Scots.  Or Trump gave it to them.  

Or it could be taxation revenue from the massive International Financial Services Centre that hosts the registered European headquarters for every major financial institution, the fact that 90% of the software supplied to the EMEA region from Microsoft, Adobe, Google and Amazon "originates" in data centres in the RoI and so is taxed there, that employment in the high paid and high tech sectors is very high, and that an effective austerity program has re-balanced the books somewhat. It could be the bail out was actually precipitated by a banking sector that built a house of cards when in fact the fundamentals of the economy whilst were actually being quite strong, were not big enough to sustain the legacy of their stupidity.

Or it could be they got to the end of the rainbow and mugged a leprechaun.

Or it could be a loan.  Mysti should know.

[super_realist]

Are Amazon and Google not simply in Ireland because they pay less tax than they do in the UK (which is virtually nothing)

155bn seems a preposterously high figure for a population of 4million (?) to pay off in a few years. Something smells a bit fishy there I think.

[mystiroakey]

I dont know. but the reason institutions are they is due to such low corp tax so no they wont have generated enough. well I doubt it Bob!!

they have just got there feet back on the ground due to other countries interest rates being so low and paid peter by robbing Paul(probably another loan of a UK bank)

[Bob_the_Job]

I dont know. but the reason institutions are they is due to such low corp tax so no they wont have generated enough. well I doubt it Bob!!

they have just got there feet back on the ground due to other countries interest rates being so low and paid peter by robbing paul

10% of a shed load is a lot bigger than 20+% of FA squared.  Especially when you're a small country and don't need so much to balance the scales.  Ireland needed a $115billion bail out (call it £100bn).  The UK is currently in debt to the tune of £1.37trillion, and growing: SEE HERE for a cheery counter

Like I said.. I don't know how they've done it, but they have.

[super_realist]

115bn is not what you'd describe as "don't need so much"

UK Debt is bigger of course, but proportionally, it's far less than Irelands, whilst the GNP/GDP of the UK is proportionally bigger given the population.

I'm not sure that the article tells the whole story. Something smells a bit.

http://countryeconomy.com/national-debt/ireland

Looking at the graphs, it seems impossible they could go from their level of debt to zero in one year.

[mystiroakey]

They are back on there feet - good on them.

But all i can remember is that the euro zone wanted Ireland to increase corp tax and Ireland didn't- i know they wanted Ireland to sell state assets and i dont think they have, but due to a minor uplift in the economy and seriously low interest rates across western nations and Ireland's up lift in credit they have probably managed to get a loan on there own so they can know be independent again.

I know what the UK is in debt- i dont need to be told it goes up by loads every second, but the UK has assets and a much better credit rating so its a very different scenario(uk i think was downgraded to a AA, Ireland i think is still a BBB

[super_realist]

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/irelands-debt-levels-are-fourth-in-europe-29940384.html

Mmm, clearly any repayment of a "bailout" is not connected to actual debt.

[mystiroakey]

http://countryeconomy.com/ratings/ireland

this link might explain a lot more than any biased article- in jan Ireland went up to a BBB1 positive , now are back to stable BBB3

so they have just been cut- which tells me that they must be in more risky debt

[raycastleunited]

Of course Ireland was able to repay its debt. Think of the global royalty / licence fee income from Irish theme pubs, leprechauns, shamrocks, the colour green, use of the word craic.

[super_realist]

Of course Ireland was able to repay its debt. Think of the global royalty / licence fee income from Irish theme pubs, leprechauns, shamrocks, the colour green, use of the word craic.

Each resident has to pay extra tax for having their eyes too close together.

[westisbest]

Need to work on your jokes SR.
 
Vey poor. 

[hend085]

Where did the spud munchers generate 115bn so quickly? Have they taken another compound loan?

Selling chips to the Scots.  Or Trump gave it to them.  

Or it could be taxation revenue from the massive International Financial Services Centre that hosts the registered European headquarters for every major financial institution, the fact that 90% of the software supplied to the EMEA region from Microsoft, Adobe, Google and Amazon "originates" in data centres in the RoI and so is taxed there, that employment in the high paid and high tech sectors is very high, and that an effective austerity program has re-balanced the books somewhat. It could be the bail out was actually precipitated by a banking sector that built a house of cards when in fact the fundamentals of the economy whilst were actually being quite strong, were not big enough to sustain the legacy of their stupidity.

Or it could be they got to the end of the rainbow and mugged a leprechaun.

Or it could be a loan.  Mysti should know.

not a single one of those companies are based in the IFSC

[raycastleunited]

ok but bob's point is right. Banks like Citi must have brought a lot of income in to Ireland.

I used to work for a plc that routed a lot of its inter-company loans through Ireland for tax reasons. Created employment and taxable revenue in Ireland.

[super_realist]

Yeah, that might be true, but 155bn is a STAGGERING amount, and no country the size of Ireland could have paid it off in one year. (and they haven't)

[Diggers]

I was thinking last night which scenario would bother me most. The UK leaving the EU or Scotland voting yes. In an ideal world Id rather we stayed in Europe and the Union stayed together but if I had to choose I'd prefer the UK (or what's left of it) to remain in Europe.
Even with a yes vote Scotland will remain close to England in so many ways, I suspect the pound would stay and there would be some deal on the armed forces and culturally the countries are very similar. In fact in many ways from an English perspective you'd barely notice much difference really.

[Bob_the_Job]

not a single one of those companies are based in the IFSC

What companies?  Google etc?  Correct.  The IFSC as the name suggest is for banks and the like.  The tech companies operate out of various buildings and data centres around Ireland.  I ran a data centre in Dublin that hosted a large suite for Google before they got their own facilities (circa 2005) - they'd about 15,000 servers running in that one "room".  But they had co-location facilities at other DCs too.  Microsoft's European Product development and operations centre is a very large campus facility in Sandymount.

[Bob_the_Job]

Yeah, that might be true, but 155bn is a STAGGERING amount, and no country the size of Ireland could have paid it off in one year. (and they haven't)

I don't think the site you're looking at is right - the bailout was in Nov 2010 and they paid it back at the end of 2013 so more like 3 years.

[super_realist]

I was thinking last night which scenario would bother me most. The UK leaving the EU or Scotland voting yes. In an ideal world Id rather we stayed in Europe and the Union stayed together but if I had to choose I'd prefer the UK (or what's left of it) to remain in Europe.
Even with a yes vote Scotland will remain close to England in so many ways, I suspect the pound would stay and there would be some deal on the armed forces and culturally the countries are very similar. In fact in many ways from an English perspective you'd barely notice much difference really.

That's the annoying thing though Diggers, what would be the point of Independence if they are going to keep pound, armed forces, BBC, etc etc.

Seems Salmond et al just don't like England. I haven't heard one convincing argument how Scotland would be better off on its own.

[Diggers]

Well I guess the argument as I mentioned yesterday is that you can have all of those things but not be subject to a Tory Govt on a regular basis when the Conservatives are just a small minority party in Scotland.

[super_realist]

Yeah, that might be true, but 155bn is a STAGGERING amount, and no country the size of Ireland could have paid it off in one year. (and they haven't)

I don't think the site you're looking at is right - the bailout was in Nov 2010 and they paid it back at the end of 2013 so more like 3 years.

Still, 50bn a year? Where did they get that when they were on the bones of their arse? ANyway, there's limitless articles about how they are still in that level of debt, and it seems that all they've done is re-structure the debt, not the same as paying it off.

Perhaps we are confusing a smaller bail out with their actual national debt. I don't actually think there are ANY countries that have paid off their debt, NOrway, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg and Switzerland maybe, other than them, not a chance any other country could.

[super_realist]

Well I guess the argument as I mentioned yesterday is that you can have all of those things but not be subject to a Tory Govt on a regular basis when the Conservatives are just a small minority party in Scotland.

So, the entire argument for Independence hinges on not being governed by the Tories? Great, I suppose economics etc simply don't matter. Take a country back into the stone age, but as long as the Tories don't govern, everythings ok. Great stuff Salmond, what a proposal.

[pedro]

It's hard to have a rational discussion about these subjects. To a large extent they're purely sentimental.

[Diggers]

Well the proposal doesn't have to be agreed does it, its a choice. But personally I can see why that's a very valid argument for an awful lot of people. I might not agree with it entirely but I don't see how anyone can deny its validity.

[super_realist]

Seems like a case of "cutting off your nose to spite your face"

Yes, I can see why they wouldn't want to be governed by a government you don't want, but I've not seen a single piece of evidence that would suggest the SNP could do anything better.
I can see the sentiment, but not the rationality.

[pedro]

One advantage of Scottish independence might be that the rest of us will see and hear less of Colin Montgomerie in the future.

[Diggers]

I think you are focussing massively on the economics of the situation, that's far from the only consideration when it comes to a choice of political party.
If the average Scottish voter would never vote Tory why is it odd to think they wouldn't want to be in a position where they are governed by them? Its a perfectly rational argument as far as I can see.

[super_realist]

What I mean Diggers is that simply because you don't like the Tories, doesn't mean the SNP will instantly be a better option for the Scottish voting for Independence, how is it any different from someone from Liverpool not wanting to be governed by Tories? especially in the complete absence of any substance from them in regards to post independence, it's all soundbites.
Lets not forget that Scotland isn't just governed by the Tories, about 33% of the time, it's governed by Labour (at least since WW2) and SCotland is largely Labour supporting.

[Diggers]

Quite simply because Liverpool doesn't have all the other surrounding issues regarding independence. They are proudly English, many Scots simply do not want to part of the Union. There isn't a comparison to be made.
Why would you want to be rules 66% of the time by a party that you share zilch values with..in many ways that's utterly bizarre.
I also think that the worry about the post independence issues is largely nonsense. Lets face it, if there is a referendum in the UK we don't know if we will be an EU member within a few years. So its not like any of us have a long term guarantee on that.
Both Scotland and England will carry on sharing and trading, I don't see that independence will lead to a huge economic disaster for Scotland personally.
I hope that the Scotland stays but I do think the referendum is valid. Even Cameron admitted that today.

[super_realist]

I jsut don't see breaking up a union as being a worthwhile exercise simply because you don't like the government, there are much more important considerations and implications.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be a referendum, but it seems that most will vote no anyway, hopefully that will be the end of the matter, and Salmond will clear off.

[pedro]

super, by far and large most people are irrational in the majority of choices they make.

[Diggers]

I think who you are governed by is massively important as to a large degree that dictates so many other things. I'd think long and hard myself if I was Scottish but would probably decide no.
But I think that the English have a sense of Britishness that isn't necessarily shared by the other countries in the Union, or certainly not as strongly.
Anyway choice is good and its there, I think the vote will be closer than people think though, mainly because I think the people who want independence care more and will turn up at the polls. Apathy could be a big issue here. Personally I think on an issue this big people should be forced to vote, but that's another matter.

[super_realist]

What I find really distasteful is Scottish people who don't live in Scotland are requesting a vote.

[Diggers]

I guess it depends how long you have been absent for.

[navyblueshorts]

Well I guess the argument as I mentioned yesterday is that you can have all of those things but not be subject to a Tory Govt on a regular basis when the Conservatives are just a small minority party in Scotland.

I suspect that no politician down south wanting to be re-elected would advocate an independent Scotland keeping the pound, armed forces, BoE, anything really unless it's a legal requirement to allow it. I consider myself reasonably rational but they can stuff off properly if they go for a 'Yes' vote.

Edit: Another thing that pees me off (as I mentioned above) is that fact this is simply anti-Tory (I don't vote for them btw) but the Scots happen to have a convenient historical fact called a national border to play on. I'm sure many in the North of England would happily never have a Tory Government again but, guess what folks, that's called democracy. You don't simply spit the dummy and take your ball home when you don't like the majority party in Government. That's the behaviour of a child. Humanity is inexorably moving towards one non-national race but the Scots want to go the other way. It's pathetic.

[Diggers]

Navy I'm sure a lot of people think the same. But Super mentioned earlier cutting your nose off to spite your face and I suspect that if we were to act that way that's exactly what we would be doing.
If it was mutually beneficial for both parties to keep those links, and I suspect that would most certainly be the case in the long term as I'm sure the UK govt would only do so if there were financial gains to be made, then it would be silly not to do so.

[super_realist]

I guess it depends how long you have been absent for.

Well, do you get to vote in the constituencies you "used" to live in?

[Diggers]

No, but if the absent person will become a Scottish citizen if the yes vote goes through, then I think they should have a vote.

[Sponsored content]